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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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I think Jody has summed it up for ya Bill. You almost sound like you think cops are TRYING to kill/harm people. They're trying to keep garbage from harming us other citizens...and I praise them for that.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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I looked at the retired chief's page. The guy is a professional expert witness. Figured out how to get paid when bad things happen when a criminal runs from the cops.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2007 - 05:36pm PT
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Jody, I value the efforts of LOE.
But those who occupy that trusted position are vested with judgment that must be exercised for the public good.
Very often that means making split-second decisions in unfavorable circumstances. This can lead to poor judgment, as you note above. That is why we promulgate blanket policies and implement them through continual training. So that some discretion is removed from the officer.
To state it in simple terms: What would I rather have?
A hoodlum, maybe in a stolen car, apprehended at all cost - including the loss of life?
Or the police to pull back, call off a high speed pursuit, and trust the hoodlum will mess up soon enough and will be apprehended through other means? Possibly a mile down the road, through inter-agency cooperation and coordination?
I choose the latter. And it's pretty funny to hear you guys slag on a former chief of police who testifies as an expert witness. That guy might save your bacon one day, Jody!
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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I'm with Jody. People run, there's probably a reason. It does not make the cop a bad guy for trying to do their job.
The above logic of Jody assuming the worst is BS. If he sees someone with loads of heroine giving it to someone else should he assume that person is giving the drugs to someone to destroy also? No, assume there is a drug deal.
You're not allowed to run from the cops. That is law. If a person breaks the law, they should be stopped. Seems reasonable to me...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Bill,
I can't readily see any statistics which indicate that stacks of folks run from traffic stops for no good reason. Perhaps you can share.
As far as the Chief being an expert witness, he is staking out a certain territory in his position paper there. And how can one predict the short term future in one of these incedents? Say the cop doesn't pursue the suspect and something bad happens. Oh, I bet there are expert witnesses playing that angle too.
One of the roles of law enforcement is deterrence. Folks simply have to know that when the flashing lights come on it is time to cooperate. What we need is to have reliable, high quality and well trained officers, not some stupid blanket laws which keep them from exercising their judgement. Just my .02.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2007 - 06:01pm PT
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Jody:
I'm sure your supervisor loved you for that one!
But you said it yourself - the guy was a KNOWN bad guy.
Someone else put forward a silly example involving heroin changing hands.
Neither of these speaks to the idea that minor infractions do not warrant high speed pursuit.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2007 - 06:07pm PT
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Ok, Ok Jody - running from police is bad!!!!!!!!
Of course that's true.
And yes, I read the link and am familiar with the law. You overlook it's key provision, which is the "stick" used to force compliance: it permits lawsuits if the agency does not have a policy, or doesn't follow their policy.
edit - oh, and it also imposes increased penalties for failing to stop.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2007 - 06:13pm PT
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"Pursuits are common sense...people just need to use that common sense when involved in one."
Ok, I'll use my turn signals and try not to exceed 140 MPH!
You're a sport, Jody. Have a good night
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Hrm. I'll keep that in mind. The seat belt must help prevent the savage beating when the adrenaline enraged cops pull you from your car and start hitting you with batons.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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"196. Homicide is justifiable when committed by public officers and those acting by their command in their aid and assistance, either--
1. In obedience to any judgment of a competent Court; or,
2. When necessarily committed in overcoming actual resistance to the execution of some legal process, or in the discharge of any other legal duty; or,
3. When necessarily committed in retaking felons who have been rescued or have escaped, or when necessarily committed in arresting persons charged with felony, and who are fleeing from justice or resisting such arrest.[b/][i/]
CA code
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Wild Bill writes:
"A hoodlum, maybe in a stolen car, apprehended at all cost - including the loss of life?"
I have had it with thieves. If something bad happens to a thief trying to get away with something he stole, I say good!
If the thief gets killed, that's even better.
If someone steals something, I HOPE he gets killed.
Every one of us knows the difference between our stuff and someone else's stuff. And everybody knows it's wrong to take other people's stuff. If something bad happens to somebody who f*cks with stuff that doesn't belong to him, that's tough sh*t.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Where you been, Crowley?
You're about 80 stupid posts short of the record you set yesterday.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2007 - 08:27pm PT
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Chaz, your post tells me I should clarify -
I presented an 'either-or' choice between
Public safety via apprehending bad guys in high speed chases
vs.
Public safety via not risking harm to INNOCENT people endangered by high-speed chases.
I was not referring to possible harm to the fleeing felon or Mr./Ms.Demeanor. If you run from the cops, all bets are off.
Funny how I'm a 'hippie lettuce smoking' kook for discussing this issue. For the record I work with LOE on a weekly basis. AND I have had way too much of my stuff nicked or destroyed by theives or idiots.
Including an idiot in stolen car, fleeing many police in high-speed chase on city streets, that crashed his car into my yard. There to be apprehended by pursuing police. Thousands in damage, including a beloved stone wall from the 1920's. He came to rest literally four inches from a 100 year old redwood tree.
But I haven't gotten to PIT someone yet, Jody. I think I would need training first.
'You may be right' edit: that title was catchy, no? Not wholly inaccurate, so technically not a troll meant to make LOE bite.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2007 - 12:22am PT
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Bump, because Chaz is right: KILL ALL THE CRIMINALS! Or at least cut off their hands and cut out their toungues!
That will teach the scumbags.
carry on.
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