Reserving Zion Walls

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Messages 1 - 53 of total 53 in this topic
Owlman

Big Wall climber
Torrey, Utah
Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 24, 2007 - 08:14pm PT
In early Feb., several climbers posted thoughts about the Zion reservation system for "popular WALL routes". One posting caught my eye, it mocked a team planning 5-days on Desert Shield. There was a pretty funny serious of exchanges. But anyway,Ok, that's me, and some old cronies planning to Epic on the shield in mid March. Here's the way we see it: last year same time, mid March, no one was on the Shield all week. March weather can be fun down there, so while we pushed on other routes, the skies were sketchy, and dudes were bailing off stuff right and left. So no freaking itineraries were being followed...meanwhile, no one was on the Shield. So this year we figure we'll do the Shield...but then Boom, the Reservation System. How could they do that? Like, how could anyone know how the weather is going to be on March 15th? or the 16th? Peton Ron, do you know? Who knows how many days it will take to find a good window to push. So faced with this moronic system imposed on a chaotic world, we felt compelled to "reserve" a band of days together where hopefully we get a window of time to get up the thing. And maybe we'll party on top for ahwile before we decide to rap the route. Come down when Bammy get wierd. We're funny that way, especially in the spring. Either way, we're a friendly bunch of old dudes and welcome company as long as you don't drop stuff on us too much, unless it's drinkable. OK, yeah, we're slow. Same slow dudes on Tis-sa-ack in, like '96. Same slow bunch on the Trip in '05. We are getting faster. And you know what, there's only about 3 trillion other desert cracks on the Colorado Plateau to play on while you wait for us...so it's not like we're keeping anyone from anything. Is it?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 24, 2007 - 08:17pm PT
Yeah, I think I'll reserve Prodigal for 3 weeks in May.



Who is pEton Ron?
Owlman

Big Wall climber
Torrey, Utah
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2007 - 08:18pm PT
Whoa. That was fast.

Exactly.
Owlman

Big Wall climber
Torrey, Utah
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2007 - 08:21pm PT
So 12 people can reserve the routes per night in Zion.
Does that mean 12 per night every night?
Seems like we should start some reserving?
Like, if "folks" don't show up...well it could be nice and quiet in the canyon for a change. Sorry for the spelling. It's genetic.
Owlman

Big Wall climber
Torrey, Utah
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2007 - 08:36pm PT
Ron, seriouly just this once, What do you suggest?
What if my homies bail and I plan to solo? How many nights reservation is acceptable on a "trade route"? Luckiy, we're nice and don't form bottlenecks, but what should be our rule of thumb with this reservation system?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 24, 2007 - 09:03pm PT
I think that what I've seen of the system is absurd.

Considering what I've seen of the NPS this is not surprising.




I don't care that much anymore as I am quite disenchanted with climbers in general. They make noises about being concerned about impact, but are unwilling to sacrifice their personal ambitions when push comes to shove.
DS isn't one of my routes so I care even less. If you don't want to practise on something shorter go ahead and monopolize it. On your head be it. If you piss off others just bear in mind you'll be rapping past them...


There WILL come a time when the cumulative effect of climbers will compromise the freedoms of subsequent generations.
E.L. "One"

Big Wall climber
Lancaster, California
Feb 24, 2007 - 11:19pm PT
Ron,

"There WILL come a time when the cumulative effect of climbers will compromise the freedoms of subsequent generations."

While I don't always rush to agree with you, I think you are right on the money here, and I do worry about this cumulative effect on the future of climbing. This is one "oldster" who will
attempt to retain some sense my impact as I pursue my "gumby" goals during my Golden Years!


Cheers


Cracko
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 25, 2007 - 11:53am PT
Thanks Cracko.
I don't always enjoy being right. This is an example.

We would probably be better off if more peer pressure was brought to bear on the worst offenders, but part of the problem is the contradictory nature of our traditional use.

Traditions are NOT always a good thing.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Jarhead City, CA
Feb 25, 2007 - 11:57am PT
Is there really a "reservation system"?

Gotta be the dumbest thing I've heard of this week.
John Mac

Trad climber
Littleton, CO
Feb 25, 2007 - 12:29pm PT
Regarding the reservaton system. Yes, it is true for the some of the more popular routes. Here is the link:

https://zionpermits.nps.gov/backcountry.cfm?TripTypeID=4
Euroford

Trad climber
chicago
Feb 25, 2007 - 12:32pm PT
christ on a raft... reserving routes?

i tell you what, i'm perfectly happy to hump my gear back to the boonies. obviously places like zion are so popular for a reason, but really. f*#k that!

John Mac

Trad climber
Littleton, CO
Feb 25, 2007 - 12:39pm PT
Other than a few folks I really don't think people use the system. It is entirely voluntary.

I used it last year as I thought it was for the backcountry bivy permit and would save me time in the monring but I was wrong and they had no record of my "reservation" and regardless you still need to get the bivy permit from HQ. So in the end my reservation was just donation to NPS.

In my limited experience in Zion to date, I've found that as long as I visit during the off peak times and climb during the week, it has been pretty quiet.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 25, 2007 - 12:51pm PT
I've never experienced a traffic jam on a new route, and Zion has tons of virgin rock.

The problem only seems to occur on a few trade routes.
It would appear to me that even this could be largely mitigated if we began to regard these routes as showpieces where those that have already paid their dues can engage in more of a display of elegance and control.

While I know how that sounds to the less experienced there ARE pathways that they can employ to acquire the requisite abilities. Perhaps a little less hubris on the part of impatient weekend warriors could benefit those future generations.
But like I said it will require a paradigm change.
Owlman

Big Wall climber
Torrey, Utah
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2007 - 12:57pm PT
Ron, what sorts of impact are you chewing on?
I think climbers are not a unique impact group.
I've been involved in raptor research in the canyonlands and attribute more impacts to Canyoneers than climbers. Many raptors are most active IN the canyon bottoms, especially near springs and riparian veg, not on the walls.

But maybe you're more concerned about physical destruction to the rock resource?

On the other issue, reservation system, I wonder if enough bitch will the NPS get rid of it? It really was not needed - we policed ourselves and 12 people were never on that wall at one time. A polite strong continuous protest, especially, via email to the superintendant, might turn their heads?

I thought we were sorting out position on the walls without the NPS butting in? For years I've communicated with the climbers arond the base areas. Also, when passed by speed parties, we've enjoyed the changeovers and conversations as teams past - and facilitated each other. I think we can take care of it without the NPS micromanagement. The physical environment makes the call, not at management system.


Does anyone have a recent topo for Days of No Future in Zion. I'd be willing to trade. Bet it's close to clean now?





Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 25, 2007 - 01:24pm PT
Impacts;

1) approach trails
This can be largely mitigated.

2)ankle biting
The inefficient use of our resources heavily impacting the first pitch while leaving upper pitches pristine is akin to loading up your plate at a buffet, nibbling a bit and then throwing the bulk away.
This is insidious as our tradition of seeking challenge is contrary to the very restraint needed to mitigate the problem.

3)placement wear
Probably THE most serious problem. The cumulative effects of anchor placement and perhaps more importantly removal will doom the viability of our most popular climbs.
Even if people employ more efficient technique, for example spacing out placements by top stepping, it merely delays the inevitable.
Whats more, although they opened up vast stretches of rock, cams have proved to cause more flaring than using nuts, re-enforcing the need to continue using them, a viscious cycle.

4) hold wear
Again, a cumulative problem as things are unlikely to improve.
I predict that as this problem worsens the potential to retain route viability using manufactured holds in places where they are less likely to become footworn will become more palatable to the climbing community.

5)drag trails
This problem can and absolutely SHOULD be addressed by the climbing community BEFORE the park service seizes upon it as a justification to ban climbing.
Just look at the wear on Touchstone, Moonlight, and Prodigal from hauling.





Strange that you should mention Days Of No Future. When I got on Deuce's case for using aid techniques that simply could not be employed on a long term basis without major resource degradation and asked him what would become of such routes his response was, "Who gives a phuque?"

Must be where the route name came from....
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 25, 2007 - 01:28pm PT
"viscious"??? oops!
ralph_teh_klimber

climber
ralph town
Feb 25, 2007 - 01:54pm PT
Doesnt take much more then a day to climb the shield....did it when the world ended, with some fresh snow to ring in the new millinieum.
Owlman

Big Wall climber
Torrey, Utah
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2007 - 01:56pm PT
Right on, man.

Your outline of impacts is to the point. I have seen these things happening across the Plateau country. It's like a no brainer that has to bite us on the ass before we'll see it in focus. Your list shows the evolution of impacts.

I'm gonna bail on you to ski some hidden powder,
up on the Boulder.

Your news about Daze of no future is bad.
Sounds like the routes getting ugly. It was such a sweet looking line to me...with great potential for free moves and clean aid.

I went to Arches last year and saw that the park had no bivying alowed within .5 miles of the highway. Which mean't no overnighters on any of the Courthouse wash features. It's alot of ground, really. It was a cool place to quietly bivi once....

Owlman

Big Wall climber
Torrey, Utah
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2007 - 01:59pm PT
A day on the Shield sounds fast, but obviously doable.
I'll bet it could go in a few hours by the specialist.

I'd like to bivi somewhere on that wall.
I can do it in a low impact fashion, which I prefer.

I like the bivies. That's a fantastic route from which to view the canyon. I would not mind you passing my scene. I'd help you.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 25, 2007 - 02:03pm PT
Would you want to bivy if you had to carry your gear instead of dragging it up the rock?



edit;
BTW which owl did you study? They seem to do OK despite humans. Very perceptive, skilled, adaptable, and wide ranging.
Owlman

Big Wall climber
Torrey, Utah
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2007 - 08:20pm PT
Hey Ron, Back from skiing. Sweet afternoon checking out the views of the Escalante from Boulder Mtn.

I study spotted owls mostly. Canyon gnomes.
They're doing way good actually, once the monsoon rains came back in 2004. Raptors are so simple, something to eat and a sweet spot to nest. Funny all the buzz about Peregrines. They used to nest on the banks of the Great Salt Lake (check out Willaim Behle's work - he's a classic Utah Bird Man, Also Clayton White's work too). Anyway, yeah, spotted owls have responded good since the 2000-2003 droughts hammered them.

I tend to only "haul" on steep routes. Hate to haul on low angle stuff...but I hear you man. That rock is so soft. I guess I attempt the best style for each condition. I'm pretty "green" compared to most I think, so my "footprint" is small. Still...you could say just being up there is an intrusion, no?
Owlman

Big Wall climber
Torrey, Utah
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2007 - 08:26pm PT
OH yeah, on DS, seems like the approach above the "secret spring" (?wedding spring boardwalks?) is the place where much care is needed. I cat footed around there to find the best approach trail...but same ole poo...lots of traversing trails and nig-nogery, with no single route. I erased some side trails, tried to shore up some blown out sections...but it was the typical circus.

Why can't parties slow down and find the best approach there?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 25, 2007 - 09:36pm PT
Moonshadow Falls?
Yeah, delicate and people don't appreciate.
Water is pretty good too.


You guys in Escalante have got it good; 75% snowpack, best in the state.
deuce4

Big Wall climber
the Southwest
Mar 3, 2007 - 10:06pm PT
Not sure what the quote above is attributed to me is all about. Pretty sure I never said such a thing, but I can imagine having said, 'Who gives a fu*k what you think?' (emphasis on the particular 'you').

Days of No Future went mostly clean on the first ascent. The only bolts placed were on belays, and on the more technical nailing pitches, I would say at most only every third placement was nailing. And a majority of the hammered placements were beaks, which when cleaned properly don't do much damage.

The upper pitches were pretty soft rock, though, sugary sand pitches which I suppose will degrade no matter how climbed.

I always chose my Zion lines carefully, picking lines that were mostly natural. Before any rumors get started, climb some of my routes there, I think you'll find that they have remained in good shape because of the naturalness of the lines, and without the need for a lot of unnatural fixed anchors which will eventually be garbage.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 4, 2007 - 12:19am PT
You sure you want to deny the statement John?
You said it on the phone and I have it on tape though I'm sure you would prefer to "remember" otherwise.


"Natural" lines that require shallow nailing undergo the most radical alteration with passage, and unless subsequent parties hand place their beaks (which should happen about the time monkeys fly out of my butt) the same will apply to those routes as well.
Let me know when the,.. what was it you said?,.. the "naturalness" of your routes permits them to see as many ascents as those routes with what you call garbage fixed anchors.

Either of us should live so long.

Jello

Social climber
No Ut
Mar 4, 2007 - 12:50am PT
Ron, remember that time I visited you at your house and we had a nice dinner and a few drinks, then sat down in your living room to watch a video. You brought out the pipe, and after a while, I told you I absolutely was unable to move, and would have to sleep right there where I sat? Well, there were monkeys flying out of your butt that night, for sure!

Just joking...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 4, 2007 - 02:14am PT
Well I was going to say "out of Rowen's butt" but I figured that a new father who still finds diapers to be pleasant smelling might be touchy, but candor is candor.
I've called John on the lack of it before.

Anyway Jeff, if memory serves, that was the night we watched Coral Sea Dreaming and in addition to wanting to use the couch I seem to recall you asking me for a snorkel.

Too bad you have ear problems. SCUBA would get you places you'd really dig. Under water you can make truly amazing moves bouldering coral.



but back to (P)reserving Zion Walls...
Kevster

Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
Mar 4, 2007 - 01:39pm PT
Owlman....take 5 days and screw all the whiners. I think the only time there is really a problem with a party taking a lot longer than normal to climb a route is when they are unwilling to allow others to pass.

Ron, you and John need to play nice. Obviously you two have different objectives when it comes to doing new routes. Ron, by creating clean classics don't you see how you have created more of a impact on the rock. I get the sense that Dueces routes, although maybe not as easily climbed clean, probably suffer from much less impact due to the nature of the climbing. So to bicker about who has caused "less impact" is pretty stupid if you ask me.

I would bet that most people would say that the super classic Zion routes are creating most of the impact in the canyon. Eventual regulation will likely arise to midigate this impact . While A4's that only get repeated once a year will hardly be considered part of the issue.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 4, 2007 - 03:24pm PT
So "classic routes are creating the impact"?

Gee, I thought it was the climbers.



So according to Kevster we just ought to put up crappy routes. That would REALLY reduce the impact.
More Air

Big Wall climber
S.L.C.
Mar 4, 2007 - 05:08pm PT
Kevster said:

"I would bet that most people would say that the super classic Zion routes are creating most of the impact in the canyon"

I agree, moderate routes with a lot of bolts attract the masses. For example, by adding a bolt ladder to the first pitch of Touchstone, that route is now in my opinion, many times more popular, increasing "resource degradation".

Having climbed routes put up by both John and Ron, I'd say that John's routes are at a much higher standard, especially when you consider using all of the natural features the rock has to offer. A first ascent party has just as much of a right to climb a more technical, thin aid line as Ron does, over bolting his trade routes.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 4, 2007 - 05:34pm PT
Brian should study history a little more carefully. In the 19th century it was claimed that rain would follow the plow.

Is it just me or does More Hot Air's post smack of elitism?
tenesmus

Trad climber
slc
Mar 4, 2007 - 05:46pm PT
Hey - what's this about a non-bolt ladder start to Touchstone? Why would you need a bolt ladder if there was already a natural crack there in the first place?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 4, 2007 - 06:02pm PT
Well Tennis Mouse,
on the original pitch I did some aid looking at groundfall from 10m. It has subsequently become far easier with nailing wear eventually allowing a "free" ascent using pin pockets.
And, oh yes, that pitch was also repeatedly retrobolted.



As a result I eventually opted for a more durable (hopefully) start.

That, and the bolts in the final pitch, have dropped the overall grade of the route, but I still enjoy it immensely.
If YOU don't there are other walls.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Jarhead City, CA
Mar 4, 2007 - 06:07pm PT
Yes, there is a start a few feet farther right on Touchstone that's a thin crack and tops out on the same ledge as the bolt ladder.

Here's a proposal that Piton Ron might like...just climb the trade routes until they are beat-out and no good as normal routes, then turn them into Via-Ferrata. I know Ron would approve, because he has guided Via Ferrata up there in Ogden:

(From the NYTimes): "“Via ferrata is probably the quickest way for a new climber to get up high and exposed in the mountains,” said Ron Olevsky, a 52-year-old climbing guide from Toquerville, Utah, "

But...but...that's private property, so it's different right? Right?

"At the base of the first climb, the canyon’s namesake waterfall misting just upstream, Mr. Olevsky double-checked harnesses and lanyard setups. A rebar ladder rung stuck off the wall at shoulder height. A silver cable, galvanized steel and a quarter-inch in diameter, traced a path on the cliff above."

Rebar? Steel cable? Hey, that's low impact, sustainable climbing there.


Now, I'm just stirring the pot here, don't really have an opinion on via ferrata, or how people establish their routes. But trade routes are trade routes because they are easy and/or quality. Limiting the bulk of impact to a few routes might be a net positive in the end...or maybe not.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 4, 2007 - 06:19pm PT
LOL

That's not me BTW Elyazz.




I thought Touchstone and Prodigal already WERE via feratta!
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Jarhead City, CA
Mar 4, 2007 - 06:32pm PT
Didn't say or imply (purposely anyway) that it was you...that guy is way taller than you...put the pic up because it was in the article and shows the nice, low impact rebar ladder.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 4, 2007 - 06:47pm PT
Oh!

I thought "low impact" referred to a route's steepness because of where the bodies first hit.
streetshoes

Social climber
Tucson
Mar 4, 2007 - 07:05pm PT
O.K., why not really confuse the issue by taking a geologic perspective.....

In a short million years, ALL of Zion's routes will be just so much sand bar somewhere between Virgin and the mouth of the Colorado.

(I might add as a caveat that Ron's routes may survive as rust-welded free-standing pinnacles that could become future tourist attractions, and will further be protected by the Antiquities Act)

Does that mean we shouldn't care? Of course not, but it does point out that, objectively, in large part this all comes down to human perception of aesthetics, and, as Stuart Smalley might say......that's O.K.! The other side of the equation relates to the 'what' of 'what is climbing'.

On the aesthetic side, you can't play it both ways: it is totally hipocritical to 'establish' routes that are easily travelled by the masses and then to bemoan the impact. On the other hand, as I've said in prior forums, I don't see that having 'a few' sacrifice routes does that much harm. Still, one has to remain amused at Ron's hubris in raising the impact issue considering his antics in Snow Canyon and the Temple of Sinewava.

On the 'what is climbing' side, everyone has a right to weigh-in on what it means to them personally to climb in Zion. However, it seems pretty obvious to me that the degree to which purported 'Zion climbers' need to bring a climb down to their level with more extensive bolting, is also the degree to which they loose credibility with respect to posing as conservationists.

So, again, while I think a little dumbing down is O.K. (if only to keep Ron around for amusement), I further think it is perfectly O.K. for those who value NOT overly dumbing down routes to be critical of those who do. And, yes, harder routes are self-limiting and thus helps to preserve the rock. What could possibly be wrong with that?

Lastly, let's get over this victim mentality that people are 'owed' the right to get up a climb....they're not. That idea permeates sport climbing, and let's not let it into any discussion of Zion climbing.

hasta luego
D
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 4, 2007 - 07:25pm PT
Again, a matter of perspective, though refreshing to hear you say it.


But a distinction should be acknowledged between climbing a challenging route in good style and then making subsequent compromises that recognize critical wear points thereby extending viability.

And to suggest that because one disapproves of a few of my hundreds of routes that somehow the other efforts are invalid speaks volumes of one's open mindedness.

Such criticism could not be posed at a more maladroit moment considering the last route I put up.
(I suppose that will have to remain a private joke for now.)
yo

climber
The Eye of the Snail
Mar 4, 2007 - 11:35pm PT
Ron himself is protected by the Antiquities Act.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 5, 2007 - 02:41am PT
And that's not all...
Blowboarder

Boulder climber
Back in the mix
May 17, 2007 - 01:48am PT
Ron, Dave, was that a moment right there?

Can a group hug be far behind?


"Talk amongst yourselves, I'm all klemst(sp)"
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
May 17, 2007 - 09:20am PT
You need to catch up on your Frank Herbert, Pasha.
dryfly

Trad climber
utah
May 17, 2007 - 10:23am PT
"You said it on the phone and I have it on tape though I'm sure you would prefer to "remember" otherwise"....


Dude....there is something wrong with your head.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
May 17, 2007 - 12:11pm PT
Ron himself is protected by the Antiquities Act.

That...is funny.

The old railroad spike that used to be (still is?) sticking out of the original first pitch of Touchstone should be as well...

-Brian in SLC
Blowboarder

Boulder climber
Back in the mix
May 17, 2007 - 12:14pm PT
Ron, that's the Dune guy, right? I tried to get into those books again and his writing style just flat loses me.

Sucks, cause I think the story is awesome.
clustiere

Trad climber
Durango, CO
May 17, 2007 - 01:13pm PT
What are the details of this new system??????????
Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
Jul 17, 2007 - 11:37am PT

Mr. Ranger , sir;....can I climb this wall, please?......(Pick a numbers;.....Touchstone Wall, Zion).
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 17, 2007 - 12:04pm PT
Its bozos that take a half day per pitch and bivy 30m up and then bail that are ankle biting the Zion walls to death and serve as proof that climbers NEED to have access restriction.
Moof

Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
Jul 17, 2007 - 12:40pm PT
Ron, you have a point. When I did the Prow a while back the first pitch was well polished old pin scars. By time I got to pitch 11 I almost thought I was off route. The rock had good texture, and loose bits I would have epextected to be long kicked loose abounded.

Would you propose a bond redeemable by proving a successful summit?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 17, 2007 - 12:52pm PT
I think I'm being trolled here, but yes in a sense there should be a financially based incentive to use the resource in an efficient and responsible manner. Obviously a heavy downpour could make continuing the ascent ill advised and should void the commitment.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 17, 2007 - 01:45pm PT
this cold work quite well.

say a case of cold ones. you bail down low for no good reason and the learring jeering crowd below gets to drink it as we think of more insults to throw their way.

success!? we still get to share the cold ones...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 17, 2007 - 02:42pm PT
How did money get converted into a popular grain beverage to be communally consumed?











Oh yeah. Thats right.

Never mind,...
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