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dondraper
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 21, 2019 - 09:37am PT
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The pc brigade has attacked John Long over his attempt to start a anti sexual harassment code.
It’s on the neutered so cal climbing Facebook page, an extension of d#@&%e David potters meetup group.
Complaint feminism Gen-Z social media activists who run this schtick whenever they can to gain and maintain their cult leader status in the outdoor/climbing overlap with the new far-left identitarian sphere (kinda a mirror image of alt-right white nationalism). And it's working! They have thousands of fans (disciples?) and companies sponsor or support them with gear, attention, and funded travel. To them, any evidence of disproportionate participation in any activity is proof of oppression/discrimination. It's not a falsifiable worldview (making it religious not empirical) since any question of their assertions, any request for clarification, or criticism by a male or a white person is simply further evidence "male fragility" or "white fragility".
It's a living embodiment of grievance studies ideas smuggled into high status climbers.
They were primary voices behind the recent online mobbing to get Alpinist editor Christian Beckwith fired from his charity as well as fighting with The Climbing Zine, various companies who have quasi-sponsored or supported them, Camber Outdoors, Evening Sends and probably more groups. It's the usual suspects of people with little real-world climbing experience, accomplishments or breadth/depth of history in the sport, but who preform recreational outrage for clicks and play social media well and constantly. If you want to give them the clicks, their numerous social media presences are constantly supporting each other's outrages and finding new targets. Many climbers buy into it to feel "woke" and righteous.
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originalpmac
Mountain climber
Timbers of Fennario
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May 21, 2019 - 09:52am PT
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Bunch of punters.
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dondraper
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2019 - 09:58am PT
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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May 21, 2019 - 01:11pm PT
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I really like what John wrote. As I stated on the tread, those who don't like it are the ones who don't get it and desperately need to. They are part of the problem.
I speculate that is bit of wisdom from old Largo is hard won through his many years of observation and possibly pulling his own mistakes.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 21, 2019 - 01:16pm PT
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Grievance studies?
lol!
I love that term, since it describes those "disciplines" perfectly. For those who care, a professor in Oregon made up a bunch of journal articles he and his cohorts submitted to allegedly peer-reviewed journals devoted to various grievance studies, many of which were published.
My favorite was titled “Our Struggle Is My Struggle: Solidarity Feminism As An Intersectional Reply To Neoliberal And Choice Feminism.” It consisted of a chapter of Mein Kampf, with the anti-Semitism references changed to politically correct jargon. It was not only published, but received several laudatory reviews.
And they wonder why so many employers sneer at graduates who majored in such things!
John
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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May 21, 2019 - 01:26pm PT
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John has nailed it IMHO. Well done.
(Is there a female Navy SEAL yet?)
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
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May 21, 2019 - 01:50pm PT
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I'm having trouble calibrating my rage without seeing what is being said about Mr. Long's proposed code, which seems perfectly reasonable to me.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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May 21, 2019 - 02:41pm PT
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JL does it again.
Great work, John!
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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May 21, 2019 - 02:48pm PT
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In the limited material I saw screenshot on MP the issue wasn’t Largo’s content, but questioning him as a messenger, I.e you shouldn’t be writing this segment, you’ve never been formally trained, etc.
Possibly true, but he wasn’t looking for a new author, just feedback on a last minute inclusion.
Honestly, after the recent dustup with Christian Beckwith that involved many of the same players, I’m ready to wash my hands of the whole thing. I get that that’s the definition of privilege, but when people are being harassed for having the audacity try to start a conversation when they’re not a member of the aggrieved group, my instinct is to let them shoulder the project on their own.
You organize a festival aimed at increasing representation in the outdoors, You write a book about harassment in the outdoor community, but good luck getting half the interest (and attendant exposure) that these two did.
Edit for link to the screenshot I referenced earlier
https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/116997632/removed-people-attack-john-long
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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May 21, 2019 - 02:58pm PT
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Nicely said JL!
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dondraper
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2019 - 03:29pm PT
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Now the complaint gym climbing feminists are attacking Hazel Findlay's Instagram for being white while climbing in Mongolia.
That is not allowed.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 21, 2019 - 03:43pm PT
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JL may not be a professionally trained expert, but he is a good writer, and he really sets the bar high, which is what is needed. Plus, he was asked to come up with something, and also welcomed suggestions. How can anyone pounce on that?
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WBraun
climber
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May 21, 2019 - 04:01pm PT
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JL may not be a professionally trained expert.
Thank god he ain't a specially trained monkey like them copying each others horesh!t masquerading it as some special knowledge ....
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 21, 2019 - 05:15pm PT
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That things sure caught fire. Surprised me.
I would remind that when one of the Z-Gen posters said that all men were, by their very nature, sexual predators, it's unlikely that such misandry (man hating) was derived entirely from living under a misogynistic, repressive male hierarchy. Some insist they are simply stating a biologically determined fact. I don't doubt some believe this, and call that being "woke." But my sense of it is their outrage runs much deeper, into personal histories that likely are dark as night. And they'll hate me all the more for such "mansplaining," when any sober person has to wonder. I don't personalize any of this, especially from people I've never met. My only concern was to try and find a way out of the mess by way of a simple code of etiquette that's not meant to solve or even address all feminist concerns, but rather to avert the sexual harassment that has been called to my attention by female athletes I know from the Adidas Athlete team, which I work with on a very part time basis. The part I do disregard out of hand is the claim that such a code will serve no useful purpose, is useless and trivializes a problem I to which I am entirely ignorant, and which it is arrogant, smug, and typical of a white male to even tackle.
There's a tendency to shut down, shame and ridicule any voice but those inside the most radical corners of this camp. The animus would curl your hair. But I'm not rapping off just yet. The code, I think, should be addressed only to males. Perhaps that way we can make some little progress. But as always, I'm open for suggestions.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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May 21, 2019 - 05:21pm PT
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My Dad had a simple saying about how his son’s will treat women in general....” you treat your Mother, better than you would treat God.” His message was taken to heart. If you can’t figure out how a woman should be treated, you probably shouldn’t be around them. Respect...and it goes both ways.
Hope you are well John...taking The Bird on another road trip next week.
Peace
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Trump
climber
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May 21, 2019 - 05:38pm PT
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I’m gonna ponder the grievance I have with those grievance studies folks. Ah heck, I’m gonna pull the trigger and post about it!
It used to be that people’s thoughts stayed in their heads a lot more than they do in the generation of the generation z. And on an entirely unrelated topic, I am your president, somehow.
Either way though, grievance studier, grievance studier studier, thanks for your thoughts.
That John Long fella seems to do a lot of thinking. That’s cool - I admire that.
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Aeriq
Sport climber
100-year Visitor
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May 21, 2019 - 06:13pm PT
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Well written, John!
The problem with specialization is one tend to think only within that area of "expertise" - and it comes with blinders and gets predatory, apparently...
This type of thinking takes us all away from a larger understanding through semantics, vocabulary and exclusion.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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May 21, 2019 - 09:38pm PT
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John,
spot on! The current climate you describe doesn't want dialogue, especially from people who don't share their same views. It's sad to see people who claim to be enlightened and aware behaving in exactly the opposite manner.
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TClimberByTrade
climber
Santa Ana
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May 22, 2019 - 06:13am PT
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Largo I sent you email. Check out FB. I put 1 of the calculator's there. They seem incomplete for some other parts.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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May 22, 2019 - 06:40am PT
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"gen z psychos?"
It's not easy to have a conversation with this kind of characterization. The conversation immediately becomes "us vs. them." Obviously, "psychos" cannot be reasoned with. Why try?
If you mean to explore a topic with others, a little less evaluative characterization might be helpful and encouraging.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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May 22, 2019 - 06:56am PT
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Damn, Largo. Your ideas are completely rational and to the point. How anyone but a psycho could have a problem with such a "code" only shows that they don't want to address the problem. It's far more important to have someone, anyone, to scream at and feel righteous. We are living in a pretty effed up time. Ugh.
BAd
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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May 22, 2019 - 06:58am PT
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"Getting the popcorn"
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dhayan
climber
culver city, ca
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May 22, 2019 - 06:59am PT
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Agreed MikeL, it’s that same kind of characterization from both sides that leaves little space for dialogue or understanding.
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Matt Sarad
climber
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May 22, 2019 - 07:47am PT
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A woman I know is one of the Stone Nudes. She says that many if not most of the men she has climbed with want to f*#k her. Luckily, she hooked up with my friend Jill, who I taught to climb and basically gave all my gear to after my traumatic brain injury,
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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May 22, 2019 - 07:52am PT
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You can't even go to a gym anymore without people being dressed in underwear, basically.. actually in the stuff too transparent and unsanitary to even be worn as underwear. I think this should be outlawed (for both women and men, yes), in parallel with outlawing harassment.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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May 22, 2019 - 08:30am PT
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their outrage runs much deeper, into personal histories that likely are dark as night.
Nailed it.
These three poor ladies seem to be further torutured by extensive Psych training at universities, which in itself is a hall of mirrors. (horrors)
Funny how Largo and Chris Owen, trying the hardest to help, are getting attacked most severely.
Ladies, they are on your side and trying to help.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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May 22, 2019 - 10:45am PT
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With all the focus on DEI training in this and the Beckwith incident, the cynic in me can’t help but wonder if this is partially an effort to boost the value of a certification/degree that hasn’t penciled out for a group that already feels marginalized.
Make our education a requirement for participation, thereby creating demand where none existed before.
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TClimberByTrade
climber
Santa Ana
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May 22, 2019 - 10:59am PT
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Largo I didn't know what gen z was when I posted here. Again as mentioned in the aol email your FB is not appearing in OC where I'm at. Though it was also being filtered out in years past.
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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May 22, 2019 - 11:04am PT
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Wow, so much mansplaining going here when the obvious has been completely overlooked ignored and marginalized. Many books have a forward written by someone other than the author, 500 to 1,000 words seems to generally be the formula. Simply Hire one of the offended parties who is trained an educated onsaid subject to write about sexual harassment.df
Edit, it's not about being right, it's about doing what's right. . .
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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May 22, 2019 - 12:58pm PT
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Once the anti-harassment policy is in effect all the attention-seekers would be losing their fan base... will be a bummer.
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couchmaster
climber
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May 22, 2019 - 03:00pm PT
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\
Bullwinkle (DF) commented, quote: "Wow, so much mansplaining going here when the obvious has been completely overlooked ignored and marginalized. Many books have a forward written by someone other than the author, 500 to 1,000 words seems to generally be the formula. Simply Hire one of the offended parties who is trained an educated onsaid subject to write about sexual harassment.df. Edit, it's not about being right, it's about doing what's right."
I'm with DF: the sladies need to be the ones who write the introduction to Bullwinkles Stone Nudes calendar gyrlsplaining the terrible oppressiveness of non-non-binary men's scopophilia of looking at naked women. Cause DF's adherence to supremacist cisnormative ideology means he can't be objective as he is part of the white patriarchy historically and violently keeping the white Womyn down. ... or something like that.. After all "it's not about being right, it's about doing what's right."
Largo, it appeared, went that extra mansplaining trope of the hero cis-white male mile and he got needlessly slammed. ...and the moral of that story is...? Next time get your parents to pay for a masters degree in "Grievance Studies" first like these gyrls did.
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WBraun
climber
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May 22, 2019 - 03:44pm PT
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and the moral of that story is...?
St00pid brainwashed modern American snowflakes ..... :-)
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 22, 2019 - 04:05pm PT
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Attack the argument, not the person - or at least try to - at first. It seems these women are miserably failing.
I was unable to ascertain any point - other than they apparently have one that's much better than Long's - but I have no idea what it is - nor do I care to.
Waste of time.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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May 22, 2019 - 05:18pm PT
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If you aren't afraid of snowflakes then you don't know snow
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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May 22, 2019 - 05:27pm PT
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Possibly simple solution:
Just start by telling them you "identify as a woman".
Never mind the XY.
Then they might listen to you?
Otherwise they would be practicing gender discrimination.
Never mind that they were already doing it....
:-)
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 23, 2019 - 01:36pm PT
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Not really sure what the gist of your post is. So are you saying that Largo can't be criticized because he's Largo? or is this another discussion about how men who don't want to be lectured by women on issues that affect them exclusively?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 23, 2019 - 06:01pm PT
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Being Largo never stopped anyone from attacking me, nor should it. Anyone can lecture me all they want. But I reserve the right to respond, and I chose not to attack anyone, especially those who apparently have had experiences that have led them to believe that all men are pathological rapists not interested in sexual gratification but rather, in control, domination and humiliation of women.
This is perhaps one area that some women might ask around about from somebody actually living in a male body (clueless and un-woke as we might be), who's been led high and low by their "small head" and has done the silliest and most absurd things, has said anything and spent more than they've had and folks, it ain't been to control, dominate and humiliate - for some nutters, perhaps it has, but for the rest of us, taking sexual attraction out of the equation is a good reason to be friends, not to start in with the repression.
When you paint the entire gender with that brush, you deny the diversity found in any group. You kill diversity by claiming it ain't there. That's a shame in my book. Of course it's patently untrue.
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sempervirens
climber
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May 23, 2019 - 06:50pm PT
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Not sure if this is directly related....
How do the grievers (the sladies or whatever they call themselves (or fek they're probably gonna fry me for that...)) feel about lesbians? I mean, are lesbian women oppressive sexual predators who harass women? What about trans people? If one becomes a man, do they become a predator? If one becomes a woman do they lose their predatory nature?
Where is the fund of knowledge? Some poor person might need to make a withdrawal.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 23, 2019 - 07:03pm PT
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Dood, yer gonna be crucified! LOL
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zBrown
Ice climber
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May 23, 2019 - 07:52pm PT
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The first female SEAL candidate (2017) dropped
The dropout rate in SEAL training is infamously high. Roughly 75 percent of the men who start the BUD/S course don’t finish.
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dondraper
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2019 - 08:02am PT
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The gist of the argument is everyone in the wrong group is at risk regardless of guilt. Climbing and communicating with angry and unstable people that discriminate puts everyone in danger. Best to shun them.
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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May 24, 2019 - 08:43am PT
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Fakebook is at its core a troll platform.
I spend no wasted time attempting to change opinions on that venue.
I’d rather beat my head against the door, or get a colonoscopy with out anesthesia.
Best wishes to Largo ,
Sincerely
Ezra
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 24, 2019 - 08:52am PT
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More to the point, why would anyone read anything on FB?
The kittens and unicorns are all I need.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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May 24, 2019 - 03:18pm PT
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Facebook = existence verification
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