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burnin' vernon

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - May 20, 2019 - 10:20am PT
Greets All:

I lurk more than post so am a bit of an "unknown" here. I'm an
old dog from bitd who values their privacy so I don't use my real
name much on the 'Net. The ST Going Dark Crisis prompts me to be
a bit more forthcoming.

I am a seasoned Unix/Linux systems engineer with the requisite
expertise and infrastructure to bring up some forums on my cloud
stuff. So why don't I? Well, cuz all of y'all trolls could well
drive me broke on bandwidth fees and such. Still... I am
considering it. To which end I shot an inquiry off to Chris that
has as of yet gone unanswered so I'd have at least some clue what
I might be getting myself into. Maybe their spam filter nuked me
but I'm still waiting on, and would really appreciate, a reply ;)

If I were to do such, I have a few thought:

 As far as I can tell, politics and trolls are the primary
impetus for ST pulling the plug. So let's just not discuss
them, unless specifically relating to climbing regulations,
access, etc.

 No ads. Everyone with even a minimal clue uses ad blockers
anyways so they're not really a very viable revenue stream
these days. Ad servers, particularly third party, which
comprise the majority, are also the number distribution source
for malware and other nasties.

 Subscription based services tend not to succeed.

 Donation based stuff _sometimes_ succeeds _if_ the community is
cool.

 We all like being "free" but the need for moderators is
obvious. This is a thankless task and can be challenging to
strike the proper balance, but it can work and I've experience
with developing "moderator hats".


So, some few thoughts there, obviously need to be fleshed out,
but I'm curious to solicit input from others before going too
much further down the rabbit hole...

So lay 'em on me.

Peace-- Ken Gunderson, a.k.a. "Mush Puppy Ken" from bitd.

Edit:

To clarify, I personally feel we really _need_ more discussion of
such issues. But it needs to be intelligent debate, which seems
to have been displaced by name calling, threats, trolling, etc.
Much of which originates from political bots programmed to stir
up trouble than real people.

So, while I agree in principle, as ST going dark
illuminates (o^O) the reality is that a minority of asshats have
shat the bed for the rest of us.

How would you propose not repeating or mitigating the "mistakes"
that ST made operationally that led to pulling the plug? Cuz I
am quite sure ST and Co. have far more lucrative funding
available than a 'regular dirtbag' and my motivation for doing
this is community building rather than profit.

OTOH, being a regular dirtbag with shallow pockets kind of
mitigates the threat from law suits. I lurk and check in from
time to time and I don't have my thumb on the pulse of wtf
prompted this. I invite those who may to email me privately and
school me up a bit.


Roadie

Trad climber
moab UT
May 20, 2019 - 10:28am PT
Thanks Ken,
I'd love to see you run with this. However, I think keeping it open to ALL kinds of discussion is important. If you've read many of my posts you'll notice that not all are climbing related and many (almost all) address the broader social and political aspects we face today.
I find few things so dull as climbers who only want to talk about climbing. If that is the only thrust I probably wouldn't be interested.
Thanks, Steve
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
May 20, 2019 - 10:33am PT

I find few things so dull as climbers who only want to talk about climbing.

Yep.

johntp

Trad climber
Punter, Little Rock
May 20, 2019 - 10:51am PT
As far as I can tell, politics and trolls are the primary
impetus for ST pulling the plug. So let's just not discuss
them, unless specifically relating to climbing regulations,
access, etc.

Wrong. It seems apparent a copy write lawsuit is the factor, although there is prolly something else going on which Chris won't go into. We don't know the facts, but it seems clear that Chris has no intent to keep this forum alive in any form.
Heyzeus

climber
Hollywood,Ca
May 20, 2019 - 10:54am PT
What Roadie said.
Roadie

Trad climber
moab UT
May 20, 2019 - 11:02am PT
YO again, You're going to get a collection of ass-hats regardless. Lost of ass-hats just want to be ass-hats about climbing... Others about whatever.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
May 20, 2019 - 11:19am PT
Wrong. It seems apparent a copy write lawsuit is the factor, although there is prolly something else going on which Chris won't go into. We don't know the facts, but it seems clear that Chris has no intent to keep this forum alive in any form.

Maybe, but I am also wondering if Chris is just tired of the climbing thing. I know he's working on something in SLT(not climbing related)
When was the last time Chris posted a climbing tr?
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 20, 2019 - 11:20am PT
I'd like to see a new forum, and to have someone who has the inclination/expertise to thwart trolls and hacks would be great.

I felt the political threads helped me process what has been going on in this country and was miffed about 2 things; first that people could become so vitriolic, and second that Chris/RJ took the "no politics" threads because it brought out base behavior, when it took advertiser's threats to curb the sexist spew when the Boobs! thread was going on.

But to say no politics, to me, is a no go. Sure, I'd still join the group, but would prefer to be able to discuss current events, especially since I fear we are seeing the dissolution of this republic in real time.

Good luck!
L

climber
Just livin' the dream
May 20, 2019 - 11:47am PT
Good on ya, Ken!

Hope you go for it......cause I'm already going through withdrawals and the fat lady hasn't even sung!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 20, 2019 - 12:06pm PT
I agree with many, that "off-topic" should be allowed, but in a section separate from climbing oriented, as has been suggested MANY times. example:

https://yosemitenews.info/forum/index.php

Clear rules for moderation (asked for many times)
Notification of why moderated (asked for many times)

I like the idea of a moderator "team", reducing the load on all.
RJ Spurrier

SuperTopo staff member
May 20, 2019 - 12:15pm PT
Happiegrrrl2:
You said:
it took advertiser's threats to curb the sexist spew when the Boobs! thread was going on.

That isn't factual.

All it took to remove it was one responsible Forum member taking a moment to alert us to the inappropriate post. No advertiser was involved in any way. In fact, in 18 years we've never heard anything from any advertiser on this site about the Forum, or any Forum post, ever, with the sole exception of Da Brim, who felt mocked and unwelcome due to inappropriate posts by a handful of people.

As you have probably seen, we have always asked members to alert us to inappropriate posts, either by clicking on the feedback link at the bottom of every page, or by clicking on the "please let us know" link in the Forum tips at the right side of the screen every time you post where we say:
Please help us keep the climber's forum a friendly and informative resource. If you find posts that are objectionable, please let us know.


We were alerted by a member to the existence of the Boobs thread on January 21, 2013. It was removed within minutes.

rj
looks easy from here

climber
Santa Cruzish
May 20, 2019 - 12:35pm PT
with the sole exception of Da Brim, who felt mocked and unwelcome.
Interesting. I know of two Da Brims that were sold as a direct result of the thread here.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
May 20, 2019 - 01:00pm PT
It would be difficult or impossible to recreate the community that formed here. The SuperTopo forum started in the infancy of the Internet in hindsight. 3 years or so before FaceBook for example. You didn't even need a login in the beginning. It replaced rec.climbing for a few notable members.

It has a very simple interface that works for a lot of people, and since there were no sub forums it was very easy to navigate.

It seemed to attract an older, very experienced, California centric crowd. But other types joined in too, and it was a great resource for younger / less experienced climbers.

Now there are so many options. I don't see the majority of users going to any one other forum.

IMO the best way to keep the party going would be as a sub forum on a large corporate site. Maybe Reddit? I've never really used it. A large site has the resources to stay open and hire lawyers. People are going to be wary of putting the time and effort into another forum that could also shut it's doors one day. Of course a public / free / forever home would be good. There was talk about people going back to rec.climbing. It would be ideal to have a repository that would last forever. But maybe SuperTopo existed in the Golden Age of the climbing forum, LOL. Where regular appearances by people like Bachar, Long, etc. and even a few appearances by Royal(ty) Robbins were possible because older folks with the history and experience found this a novel way to converse and lay down some of their history/wisdom. From now on it may be a case of been there, done that.
jogill

climber
Colorado
May 20, 2019 - 01:09pm PT
A fundamental question that arises before any of this is resolved is the following:

After June 1st how are current members of ST notified of new forums being created?
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
May 20, 2019 - 01:26pm PT

^^^ One thought is to see if Chris would be willing to send out a bulk email to all ST Forum users after the 1st, notifying everyone of a new forum website, if and when one is created. The notification would be a one-time email about the new website, and not to notify of various new user groups on websites like Farcebook, etc. We would have to have a new website created, that somewhat resembles or doesn’t resemble this forum, but without any affiliation to the SuperTopo business entity.

I don’t see any of the existing websites (MP, RC.com, WF, etc.) taking the place of this forum after it is gone (as the Fet said above).

Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
May 20, 2019 - 01:34pm PT

With the success that we’ve had with open source projects here in the past, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to think that we can work together to create a new website. The D5 hammer project came about because of communication on this forum, and I met Theron through this forum, which enabled us to get Tomahawks into production.

It’s easy for us to sit here and discuss ideas for a new website, but getting it implemented and up and running is another story. Is there enough desire and motivation amongst all of us to get something going? Or do we just say, “Hey, that was fun while it lasted”?

Brockman

climber
May 20, 2019 - 01:37pm PT
YES!

A REAL FORUM WOULD ROOL THE PLANET!

GreatIdea!

TFPU!
micronut

Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
May 20, 2019 - 01:48pm PT
John Gill.....I know you're not a fan of Facebook, but as of the past 72 hours 176 prior Supertopoans are currently over on Facebook posting photos, topics and interacting pretty well at the Supertaco Refugee Group. I'm sure the word will get around.

I don't intend to be the moderator for long, but its doing its purpose for now, which is to unite the ST tribe and act as a stop-gap for the community until something else comes up. You should check it out!

I have an old signed copy of your book by the way...its one of my most cherished pieces of climbing "gear" I won. Sorry to act like a fanboy but just thought it might make you chuckle.

Scott
burnin' vernon

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2019 - 06:58pm PT
After discussion with some trusted advisor types, I've decided to move forward with this. Check me in a couple days. I'll posts URL.

Peace- o/
Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
May 22, 2019 - 10:25pm PT
I know Ken from when he used to " live " in hidden valley. He has mad IT skills. Climbers will miss supertopo, and want another replacement " cyber campfire" to hang out at. I am curious to see what Ken comes up with. It seems random, but..ya never know......it would be nice to see climbers rally instead of fracture.....maybe this will be the place...who knows...?
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