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Trump
climber
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In the Venn diagram of the objective truth of what climbing is, and the truth of what a climber is, the intersection with backpacking is larger than the intersection with socializing. Just look at the Venn diagram in my mind and you’ll see quite clearly which is a more holistic perspective on climbing.
Ok if the words we choose to use say so, even when the hordes of (other) climbers don’t. My perspective is that old school is just objectively a more holistic perspective - it’s unrelated to me being from an old school. I’ll bet the old schoolers will agree.
Oh lighten up, us! We sure have funny ways of convincing ourselves that we’re right.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Imitating a banned poster is grounds for being banned....Sound the dork alarm.....
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F10
Trad climber
Bishop
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Bishop,
Keep on driving, way to crowded for me. Especially from my my first trip to the Buttermilk boulders in 72’
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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I’ve been hacked !!
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A Essex
climber
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trads never should have allowed bolted convenience anchors to become acceptable
you reap what you sow
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ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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IMO, Jimbo NAILS it...
"I believe that a majority of today’s climbers were first introduced to climbing in gyms were the main emphasis is on the athletic part of climbing. They then, usually, move outdoors to sport climbing where the emphasis, again, is on the athletic aspect of climbing."
Lot of truth there. There are just way more climbers and so, yeah, the Cirque and the Black are also more crowded. But, the preponderance of newer climbers seem attracted to two factors: convenience and social interaction at the crag, much a like a gym, huh.
No wonder the Creek is so damn crowded now, it behaves just like a gym even though you use gear, run up, clip the anchors, lower off. Same reason people get dropped there, too much social interaction, like distracted driving.
Little Cottonwood was a beautiful mostly sunny 70 degrees Sunday. Almost no one out, kinda strange. It's just not quite as convenient. Weekend before hiked up to the Upper S-Curves in Big Cottonwood, a convenience area. Walking past the groupies at the lower S-Curve and one asks what we're "going to project." WTF. We don't "project," we climb we say. Gym think at work.
Fortunately we have a lot of crags here that aren't convenient and aren't social. I now generally try to avoid convenience areas, and that includes the Creek.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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You would think the Superbowl would have more capacity considering the immensity of the valley it's in. This is site #1 in the Bridger Jacks campground, although I guess that fills up too. As you can see there is an expansive area behind the site. There are hundreds and hundreds of miles of these wingate sandstone walls with supercracks still yet to be found, all across Utah and in neighboring states.
As for hiking, in Colorado there are about 50 14ers and about 500 13ers. I have a book I found on eBay with the details of the 13ers, although I had heard of almost none of them and they don't have built up trails to the tops. The hiking begins once you step off the trail imo.
*JLP you have correctly surmised that I have not climbed the 500 13ers but it's mostly laziness in figuring out the logistics. My favorite hiking areas in CO are the Park and Indian Peaks. Both heavily visited but become wilderness again once you step off the trail.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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I have a book I found on eBay with the details of the 13ers, although I had heard of almost none of them and they don't have built up trails to the tops. Yeah - post back after you've done a few. For starters, they tend to share trailheads and camping with other peaks and activities. It’s not just climbing that’s been over-run.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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I still jump on random rocks.
If it were not for a fear of Ticks I'd still be searching along the contours of hillsides for double-gnome-size granitic schist to climb.
It IS the journey & fun of discovery, the exploration that satisfies the gnawing need . . . That scratches the itch. . .
That brings the glow of wonder out of the glorious cathedral of nature
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2019 - 11:47am PT
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I love enchaining 13’ers....few trails and no people and there are 600 of them in Colorado. 14’ers are overrun with people “pressure breathing”....yikes, at the pace they’re going you hardly have to breathe thru your mouth!
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Decko
Trad climber
Colorado
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Drink more beer......
Climb less...
All of Colorado is crowded.....
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seano
Mountain climber
none
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I have a book I found on eBay with the details of the 13ers, although I had heard of almost none of them and they don't have built up trails to the tops. Ormes? As recently as 10 years ago, most 14ers didn't have built up trails. Stay away from areas with 14ers (and, increasingly, "Centennials," or highest 100 peaks), and you'll still have the mountains to yourself.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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^ not Ormes, author is Garratt, title is Colorados High Thirteeners. There is one on eBay now for $4.23, including shipping. Get yours today. It's an old school guidebook, with only vague descriptions and clues, but a lifetime of exploration of you're up for it.
Jim I am envious of your motivation and experience. If a thirteener is too small, link them up. But only in Colorado do people think there's a big difference between 13 and 14k.
Living in Washington DC as I do now, there is no outdoors at all and no feeling like the place is being overpopulated. My only adventure sport these days is riding a bike in traffic.
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seano
Mountain climber
none
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author is Garratt, title is Colorados High Thirteeners Thanks. If you get a chance, pick up a copy of Ormes, preferably one of the older editions. The early ones are truly old-school, with route descriptions like "the east ridge is class 3." I particularly enjoyed his route description for Lizard Head, which was something like "hike to the base, take a picture, then turn around."
His autobiography, A Farewell to Ormes, is also a good read.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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I love enchaining 13’ers.... I could see that working out a little better for you near Ouray than for us Front Rangers. Indian Peaks, 4th of July, Bear Lake -> massive crowds.
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cragnshag
Social climber
Gilroy
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Humans are social animals. Most of us crave contact with other humans from our tribe (the climbing tribe, in this case). That's why crags are crowded. Most people either like the company or don't mind the company at crowded crags. If they didn't, they would not go there in the first place.
Think of a nightclub with a line in front to get in. Then think of a seedy bar with the only people being 3 or 4 drunks hunched over their drinks, contemplating their miserable lives. Which venue would you rather go to? Most folks choose the crowded nightclub, just like most choose the crowded crag.
In Yosemite there are about 200 climbs that get done all the time and you are likely to encounter others on the climb or nearby. There are 2800 other climbs to choose from where you don'y have to wait in line. Many of these are great climbs AND are not that far a hike to get to.
So to respond to Jim... I don't see the problem here. If a crag is crowded, don't go to that crag if you don't enjoy the social aspect. If you want solitude, go where others don't- which is 95% of the rest of the cliffs. Easy.
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limpingcrab
Gym climber
Minkler, CA
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Just walk a mile from the car and you're usually good to go.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2019 - 03:19pm PT
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There are good reasons that 2,800 climbs in Yosemite lie fallow and many cliffs don’t have traffic...the climbing isn't that good. Climbers are always going to congregate around the best climbing at that’s where the problem lies.
Personally I have little difficulty finding uncrowded climbing. I put together a climbers camp on the Biafo Glacier in the Karakoram and will be there with seven others for seven weeks this summer. I have the means and experience to take my passion to far flung places not available to the great majority of climbers.
I am trying to provide some perspective on observations made over a long career and offer up ideas to help mitigate the crowding that I have observed.
There are few secrets in the internet age and world class climbing will (by definition) attract people from around the world.
I am not bemoaning the situation, I am observing it. Far be it for me to want young and new climbers not to sample the best climbing as I have.
Long approaches will, and always have, been a major factor in limiting crowds but in today’s crazy, busy world we are going to see more and more climbers wanting to feast on some of the areas that provide excellent and easy to get to climbing.
These particular areas are being loved to death and we need to take serious measures to:
*make the experience as good as possible to all climbers
*protect the crags and the adjacent land from environmental deterioration
*repair the damage already incurred
*create safe and adequate parking
*provide sanitary camping
*deal effectively with human waste
Most climbing is on public lands and most land managers recognize the legitimacy of climbing but will take measures to curtail climbing if it jeopardizes the environment.
The Access Fund recognizes the situation as does the AAC. It behooves climbers to support these organizations. It also is a wake up call for people who regularily use an area to take an ACTIVE role in protecting the places where they play. Start your own grassroots stewardship program. Believe me, land managers rarely see that from other special user groups and it will go a long way in keeping your favorite area open.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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There are good reasons that 2,800 climbs in Yosemite lie fallow and many cliffs don’t have traffic...the climbing isn't that good. Climbers are always going to congregate around the best climbing at that’s where the problem lies.
I am in full agreement with the rest of your post above, but definitely not with that opening line. Perhaps it is true in Yosemite. I've only climbed there a few times, so I can't speak to the worth of all 3,000 (or however many) climbs. But in many areas, climbers congregate not around "the best climbing", but rather around the climbs with the most stars in the guidebook (or written up as being super cool on the internet).
A couple of examples from Red Rocks, which, like many internationally renowned climbing areas, attracts about three zillion climbers every year.
Example 1: One fairly cold early-season day we decided to climb Birdland. We'd climbed it before but it's a fun route and we knew it would be in the sun. As we got closer, we could see two parties already on the climb, but weren't worried because we figured they would both be well ahead of us. Ha! when we got up to the base there was a third party just starting, and four more parties waiting for their turn! So we walked uphill about forty feet and found no one on a climb called Rawlpindi.
Same grade as Birdland. Same length. Finish at the same point about 5 pitches up.
As we were racking up, another party arrived. But when we couldn't tell them anything about the climb (we'd never been on it), they decided to go and get in line for Birdland.
As it turned out, Rawlpindi was (in our view) actually a more enjoyable climb. More varied. But, since it had no stars, we had it to ourselves while seven parties were enjoying each other's company on Birdland (which has multiple guidebook stars).
Example 2: Basically the same as above, but on Chrimson Chrysalis. Or rather on Ginger Cracks, because CC (multiple stars) had a huge lineup. Ginger Cracks, despite being a stellar climb, isn't guidebood starred, and we spent the day on it with just one other party (several pitches above us, so not really an issue).
I've seen similar silliness in other areas. Climbs that get multiple guidebook stars are overrun. Climbs that are equally good (or even better), but which aren't starred, are often empty.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Even at the Gunks, just pick a midweek day at sunrise and you'll have the place almost to yourself, for a couple of hours at least. Even on the worst weekends in the Fall, the upper pitches are often free, just link a few without ever going back to the ground (see multiple threads on multiple forums about the gang-roping problems).
Perversely enough, on some of those crazy weekends, I've walked up to some of the classics to find them open, people are so sure they'd be taken, they don't even bother looking. In my Noob days I assured everyone I'd lead High E if we didn't have to wait in line, on a Saturday, in September. Confident that I'd never have to walk the talk, we arrived at the base to find it not only empty, but empty enough that our group of 6 or 7 all took turns to lead the last pitch before any other group reached the GT ledge, while those capable took turns on Modern Times.
TE
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