What to do, what to do...the hordes have descended.....


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Trad climber
the new world
May 7, 2019 - 06:48pm PT
That guidebooks and the like which hype certain climbs effectively concentrate climbers on certain routes where they are willing to climb with parties above and below them the whole way is a good thing. Anything that results in dispersing people so that they end up on other routes would be a bad thing. Please stop talking about it. Maximum density on the “good” routes or the “best” crags is desirable. Do what you can to enhance the hype of the select classics. I don't need to see more people on the other routes – especially at RR. Please just keep talking up how great those classics are so that I can climb in peace.

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2019 - 07:04pm PT
Ghost, I stand corrected, you are right. I have done many climbs not given many stars that I thought were great and I have done many highly starred climbs that seemed ordinary.

Climbers sheepily follow the written word and que up for a climb when good alternatives are next door. This is another reason I don’t like “select” guidebooks. Quality ratings are even more subjective then difficulty ratings.
steve s

Trad climber
May 7, 2019 - 07:23pm PT
One man’s junk is another man’s treasure.
Also ....timing is everything.

Mountain climber
May 7, 2019 - 07:25pm PT
Do what you can to enhance the hype of the select classics. I don't need to see more people on the other routes – especially at RR. Please just keep talking up how great those classics are so that I can climb in peace.

This hits close to home. I have written, edited, and mostly typeset a guidebook to some of my favorite routes in the lower 48 and western Canada (including Red Rocks). Many are well-known, but some are not. My instinct has always been to share the knowledge, because I have benefited so much from various guidebooks and online resources, and want to give back to the community. However, I increasingly wonder if I should just keep quiet. Many of the routes are a safe distance from LA/SF/LV/Denver, but there are a couple in Red Rocks, one of them still relatively obscure.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
May 7, 2019 - 07:37pm PT
There is definitely a herd mentality which I believe is reinforced by many newer climbers learning in the gym and who lack the background or experience to explore something not entirely familiar. I have also noticed that alot of the crowds are due to bouldering, not roped climbers. I was out at Josh about a month ago (boy has that place changed) and, while there were 20 people sitting around Pig Pen, there were few climbers on roped climbs, even in HVCG. It was odd but reassuring in a way. I don't blame people for wanting to visit the places that we've been raving about for years. How we deal with the crowds and impact will be a challenge in the years to come.

The Good Places
May 7, 2019 - 07:44pm PT
real mean enchain groups of 13ers and force them to enslave whole ranges of 12ers. and they don't spray about it, or popularize it

Trad climber
San Francisco
May 8, 2019 - 02:53pm PT
So it’s not like Yosemite or Josh, but I’ve been out to Pinnacles twice in the last couple weeks and didn’t see a single other climber, even at the more popular spots close to the road. It’s even still green & lush. More worries about poison oak and those pesky detachable holds than crowds. The question I’d like to pose is if you can only get out a handful of times a year would you choose classic and crowded, or not so classic (but still fun) and uncrowded?
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

Out Of Bed
May 9, 2019 - 06:22am PT
The "Gunks" main areas suffer from polished holds and overcrowding of routes.
This is due to the (near-criminal) 20 yr old policy of adding convenience bolted anchors at 75-80 feet.
There can be people waiting all day for some climbs.
On 3 day weekend days the lines get silly long. Sometimes, still 10 climbers deep at 6pm.
Even 'Millbrook' now sees "crowds" of 15 parties on a busy weekend.

A place that stays un-crowded far from the maddening hoard, not all the to Tillson way down Springtown, Now a long walk,
but where you can find solitude at every grade of clamber,
and never see another climber.
I am proud to publish this picture in protest to the placement of bolts along the ridge.
If only my friends & I had been more independent,
and run our lives as modern climbers.
We would have left a legacy of 5.11 &12s all graded 5.10+
Don Paul

Social climber
Washington DC
May 9, 2019 - 07:58am PT
Already done gnome. I learned at the Gunks and climbed about two dozen 5.10s before moving west, where I was instantly a 5.11 climber and already comfortable with sketchy gear. I wouldn't be surprised if some were 12.a western. But that's a special case, right next to NYC. An island in a sea of traffic and trash, the Gunks was a refuge for me.

JLP next time you are on the 4th of July trail take a left turn when you get to the mine. Cross that valley to jasper and climb neva from that side and there are some crags there too, Multi pitch. You won't see anyone even in peak season. Plus there are backcountry campsites by the lake.

May 9, 2019 - 08:08am PT

Like Ghost notes above, I often pick up uncrowded great route recommendations from online threads. Routes that are often not in the guidebooks yet. Which makes me wanting to share them outside of my circle much more difficult of course.

Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
May 10, 2019 - 11:02am PT
More hordes coming your way.......


Trad climber
Here and there
May 10, 2019 - 03:25pm PT
Gnome (aka Donald Perry)
Your foto is in my master’s degree thesis area, does that mean I have ownership rights??? In the ‘80’s the community decided against publishing fotos of the area in magazines.

Some one needs to tell the story of one of the guys who owns ( or owned) part of the area to the north of that cliff, he was shot down after opening fire on cops after blowing up his wife’s divorce lawyer’s car to get his attention, he then shot him.....his brother was one of the guys the army tested ‘Sid on. I wish I could make this kind of stuff up!

Social climber
wandering star
May 10, 2019 - 03:53pm PT
Do what Bill Tilman did, take up sailing.

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 10, 2019 - 05:31pm PT
And sail off into the sunset never to be seen again.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

Out Of Bed
May 10, 2019 - 08:18pm PT
so I moved it

All along a pretty roadside lakeStill no chalk

Todd, I am not Donald Perry

ever/never care

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 10, 2019 - 08:41pm PT
What was northern lights owners name gmnome ?
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

Out Of Bed
May 10, 2019 - 08:45pm PT
Sorry ? was that a for real question?

The Last name was in that drunken ramble, that I have mostly, deleted.
are we name dropping?
Dave, who knew how to throw a few back & toss a dwarf...
He & Claud once threw me up at a ledge; I caught the edge of it and scampered up. Then I set up an anchor and brought them up.

More than a decade later a different "Dwarf Toss"
became the name of a hard boulder problem

At 1st on the way I took it I had said:
If you don't know then I'm not saying

I also dated Claud's, niece
What was her uncle's last name?

I should gnow better than to post while drinking on a Friday night


May 19, 2019 - 09:44am PT
I've been a bit depressed about all this lately. We've decided to sell the home on Mt Evans and hit the road. Hopefully the snow stops falling so we can try to finish a couple routes on the black wall before it is time to go. Climbing has changed substantially over the past decade. Yes, the black canyon has been discovered. A couple weeks ago I was turned away from Eldo on a weekday. Overnight parking and camping around Squamish will be illegal soon. The youngsters are a different crowd and its getting harder to find solitude in the mountains.

We're going to use this as an opportunity to travel and visit places we've always wanted to visit, buy a couple pieces of land in a couple favorite spots, and hopefully not work too much.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

Out Of Bed
May 19, 2019 - 10:15am PT
yikes no!
The last time someone guessed,& was wrong I let it ride
that stupid person deserved it.
so I made no attempt to correct it,
But Rich Ross-"Red Swami" was still around
& quick to point out the mistaken identity.
but not before "Kunlun_shan" took off running with the mistake\sigh!

This time I'm not waiting,
I am not Donald Perry.

@Wix.comm's Tri-State Rock Climbing
(Family dysfunction necessitates that I remain less searchable)
Gnome Ofthe Diabase?

Start by hopping off the boulder to reach the 'holes'
1st ascent accomplished in the dark during a kegger...
Hi-E The Hard Way(5.9 how good is your belay person? r/x)
There are very few pictures of me climbing,
this one from NJ '83?Oldfattradguy2,
While I know you, it is clear you have no memory of me.
We had many friends in common, but I also had a Mnt house connection.
That kind of changed when Tor fell Ice climbing, he was at Dartmouth.
I went to Paul Smiths College.

seems like I was 1st around enough to notice in the spring of '84.

I washed dishes at Bacchus, Craft booted from a job at Northern Lights...

Oldfattradguy2 knows who I mentioned
& that was who I was adding this for.
I could fill in the names of the sad story Oldfatradguy2 was telling.
More interesting is that for a while there was a manhunt
(I'm actually not sure if I remember that 1st name)
for that brother, he hid out on the cliff.
In my climbing adventures, I found his hideouts,
A nook under an overhang midway up a steep but easy corner,
{Might be one of those in the picture}
The ledge has a large block in front &
provided a perfect 20 by 20 'room'.
That was set up; a fire-ring against the back wall that vented up a chimney crack
 & stocked with a bunch of gallon water jugs, rice,
cans of beans, chili, & tuna 2 pots, kindling & matches
And a homemade walking stick/cane.

.The stick I use when needed, (weather-proofed; dipped in poly-urethane) . .
I was a touring Dead Head working with Mikio & Gretchen
there were lots of weeks of here & there...In between Jerry & Dead Trips...
I was still using an NJ drivers Lic/address,
then in '86 the NJ guide book author, Neil Aj Sloan
and I were issued 'appearance tickets'
Busted/fined due to his big mouth
& climbing at Watchung.
He did not show up in court, I pled out & agreed to make my residence in New York legal.
The reason that I got a NewPaltz address in '86.
By '86-87 almost everyone, who was crushing it, that was not named Mike, rich, Al or Jordan-
had moved on.
All the crew that I was cool with, but for Jimmy & Dave~
(Morris H, Scott F, Colin L, DaveLuhahn & Big Dave, Sal M, ...to name drop a few of the slew of near 20 who graduated , & so moved on_ west ;)

what is it about the mix of the old masters that set the never-were-evers- off?
telemon01? Did you ever work as a climbing guide, a glorified rope-gun in the 'Dacks or Gunks?
The clients get less time on the rock, a short day,
if you don't go to the best gang-able route when you have a larger group.
This is a trick that once learned, is also applied to personal, unpaid days to maximize fun.
It is fun to climb in groups these days.

I looked, you say that you started out on Adirondack slabs in the early '80s? I was at Paul Smiths '80-'83
Also I had posted that ski poster, that one you were asking if anyone remembers: the "Yellow Jump-suit Ski poster" "Keep Your Tips Up"
My point is as obscured as your's
What are you trying to imply?
kind of long reach to add a Wizard Of Oz video that makes No obvious point in this discussion,,,


Trad climber
May 20, 2019 - 06:36pm PT
Hah, the irony of the guy that introduced the 20 person gumbie gang bang to the creek suggesting that leaders have right of way. They did before someone taught them that if they got 8 people who were moderately interested in climbing together, they could spend the day clogging up 1-2 classics as they shared their way up the route.

At least sister Mary Catherine and Acura have taken up the mantle of introducing people to the desert long before they have any business climbing there. Proud legacy right there.
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