What to do, what to do...the hordes have descended.....

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Messages 1 - 124 of total 124 in this topic
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Original Post - May 5, 2019 - 10:49am PT
on my favorite climbing areas...Indian Creek and the Black Canyon. Just back from the BC and, although it is early season, there were more climbers than I have ever seen before. The campground (only 13 sites) was filled up by Thursday well before the weekend crowds arrived.
The previous Monday I counted 52 cars in tbe Supercrack parking lot in IC. With the internet, areas with superb climbing are no longer under the radar.
You canít roll back the clock, climbers are going to have to learn how to work together to create the best experience for themselves and other climbers.
Whatís the current situation in your fav area?
ron gomez

Trad climber
May 5, 2019 - 11:01am PT
And I remember when Joshua Tree was lonely...always got a choice of sites in Hidden Valley, the thought of a line for climbing was unimaginable. Yosemite was like that too. Climbing got too popular, was better when only us geeks climbed.
Peace
F

climber
away from the ground
May 5, 2019 - 11:05am PT
Jim, youíve been talking about the black canyon and encouraging people to go there for years on this forum. Well, there you go.
While I think itís great to encourage people to get out, a good strategy Iíve found is to keep the noise down until the area is played out for yourself. Youíve put up all the best lines and done the best of them multiple times and are ready to move on.
Years ago I quit giving beta to people about areas I still go to. I learned my lesson the hard way. The retro bolters, Facebookers, and neophyte narcissists ruined a few areas for me, and so I donít talk climbing anymore unless itís with a select few partners.
You want to get away from the crowds, then get away from the crowds. Itís still pretty easy to do, especially for a guy with your talent and motivation.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
May 5, 2019 - 11:22am PT
"Whatís the current situation in your fav area?"

Fooked. I've been lamenting the same thing, lately. Used to be, when an area got 'discovered', the retort was 'well, just gotta find another place to go'. These days, it feels like we've run out of new, amazing places.

My strategy has been to basically give up on places like JT...the hordes can have it...and go mid-week to anything else that's popular.

It's really, really disheartening. 'Climbers getting along'...like that will ever happen. If there's one thing that's become clearer about climber culture these days (hell, American culture), it's that there is an ever-increasing sense of entitlement to do whatever the hell they want to do, and f*#k anyone who asks anything otherwise.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2019 - 11:27am PT
I know how to and I do get away from the crowds. Yes, iím part of the problem for posting about good climbing areas. I donít have big issues with areas becoming crowded because I am fully aware that climbing has exploded in popularity and, as with any activity, people seek out the best.
Given the number of climbers we just need to learn to work together to maximize everyones experience...here are some ideas....
*Donít hog routes that others want to climb.
*If you canít control your dog, donít bring him to the crag.
*Yes, cig butts and bits of tape are trash.
*Park your car to maximize room for others.
*Others camping near you may be getting up early, keep the noise down after 10:00 pm.
*Those that want to lead a climb take preference over top roping.
*Allow faster parties to climb thru you and do it with a smile.
*When climbing on public lands obey the regulations.
*Be friendly to the other climbers you meet, it may pay dividends.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
May 5, 2019 - 11:30am PT
Great set of guidelines, donini. I'm not holding my breath.
skywalker1

Trad climber
co
May 5, 2019 - 11:32am PT
Well some dude wrote a guidebook to my favorite bouldering area and itís not the same anymore. Itís getting crowded now. Thanks dude.

S...

Edit: Let me express that my concern is the environmental impact it is having.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 5, 2019 - 11:34am PT
Didnít see a soul on this rig last summer and the weather was perfect...


Dunno, maybe it was the tough approach?
okay, whatever

climber
May 5, 2019 - 11:38am PT
I only did one route in the Black Canyon, back in the late 1970's... the Russian Arete... 5.9 or thereabouts... not a grim testpiece. It WAS a bit crumbly and runout, at least in places, but the atmosphere in the canyon compensated for those drawbacks, at least for me. It doesn't surprise me at all that the Black Canyon is a bit crowded these days, like most other climbing venues. It's a spectacular canyon, without question.
hooblie

climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
May 5, 2019 - 12:02pm PT
the end of the petroleum era combined with global warming will fix the problem, there's no doubt.
in the meantime, as capitalists, we see those hordes as a market opportunity and make bank
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 5, 2019 - 12:06pm PT
Whatís the current situation in your fav area?

Well, sometimes there might be another party, but mostly it's just you and your partner...

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 5, 2019 - 12:33pm PT
Even in Idaho, City of Rocks & Elephant's Perch get crowded in season.

Happily, the rest of this misbegotten backwater is not worth visiting.

These crags are 2 miles from the end of a decent, but obscure road. I discovered them a couple years back, after I had passed the age of wanting bold technical first ascents & new routes. After posting about them on an Idaho peakbagger forum, a fellow who lives about 40 miles away told me he'd done new routes there & I should keep my big-mouth shut about them.


Trump

climber
May 5, 2019 - 12:34pm PT
Agreed. Partisanly self interested climbers are going to need to work together in order to create the best experience for everyone, just like in every other political endeavor. Honestly thinking and believing that is a good place to start.

Or just ban people. Sport climbers maybe? Millennials? Shout them down? Reject the legitimacy of the values they hold if those values are different than ours?

Itís up to us how we do this thing - I donít think thereís any ďhave toĒ about it. How broadly or narrowly we define our partisan interests is up to us. Useful though prolly to honestly observe abut ourselves what we actually do do, and how narrowly or broadly we actually do define ďourĒ interests.
Zay

climber
Monterey, Ca
May 5, 2019 - 12:40pm PT
Machete Ridge is never crowded... for now.
seano

Mountain climber
none
May 5, 2019 - 12:45pm PT
Whatís the current situation in your fav area?
Tuolomne? Hopeless. Eastern Sierra? Getting bad. Icefields Parkway? Same, but slower.

However, if you hike a little ways off the beaten path, it's still pretty quiet in all of those places. Some people thrive on crowds, but if you don't, it only takes a moderate effort to avoid them.
norm larson

climber
wilson, wyoming
May 5, 2019 - 12:50pm PT
One other rule should donít be climb in big groups.
Iím tired of seeing large groups with one leader choking cragging routes for hours at a time.

Also donít spray on the internet about how awesome a place is.
Gunkie

Trad climber
Valles Marineris
May 5, 2019 - 12:58pm PT
I remember looking for a climbing partner at the Uberfall in the Gunks all morning on bluebird Saturday, circa 1980. You could still drink from the Uberfall spring with the communal tin cup.

What to do? Smile and be nice OR find those obscure corners of the popular areas that only longtime locals know about and keep their mouths shut about.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
May 5, 2019 - 01:00pm PT
I don't mean this in a denigrating way, but many of you seem hopelessly optimistic about how today's (and future) climbing generations are going to respect and demonstrate those kinds of (laudable) guidelines.

There was a time when the smaller community could have an impact on negative behaviors (or maybe I'm just being nostalgically revisionist in my thinking), but today's 'community' is SO FRICKIN' HUGE and self-oriented that I see virtually zero hope for self-management. We are waaaay past that point, methinks.
divad

Trad climber
wmass
May 5, 2019 - 01:20pm PT
I remember when being at the Gunks in July or August and it was in the 90's, you'd have the place to yourself ('cept for the chiggers). Won't see those days again. You learn to adapt. Running into old friends lessens the impact of the maddening hordes.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 5, 2019 - 01:45pm PT
Jim's guidelines should be a given amongst all in the climbing community. Perhaps the problem is a bit more extensive. It should be a given in the outdoor community. People are in the outdoors now, but not really "outdoor" people. We can teach by example. When someone drops a cig on the ground we can, and this is the key, nicely point it out to them. Same with the rest of the guidelines.

If you have time and love to wander there are new places out there just waiting. I know some but I'm not telling. :)))
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 5, 2019 - 01:59pm PT
I agree Lynne. Seems like many of the current climbers just donít respect the environment around the rocks the way they used to. Routes visible from the road at JT get a lot of traffic, and the damage is evident. Still, there are beautiful routes in the back country that are usually pristine and deserted. There are options if you donít mind some exploration.
curt wohlgemuth

Social climber
Bay Area, California
May 5, 2019 - 02:18pm PT
I wish it were just climbing areas. Today with the Instagram generation, it's every outdoor place I go to. It's incredible how many people know about the obscurities I used to enjoy alone -- they're all there taking selfies and doing fashion photo shoots and hanging over waterfalls and...

Nothing is secret or obscure any longer.
Knut G

climber
Germany
May 5, 2019 - 02:39pm PT
*always take more trash out than in:

*i love remote places with more reindeer than men. Problem: Getting there meant having burned more than 40 tons of co2 in the past travelling by plane. Thinking about staying more in nearby crowded areas in the future.


Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 5, 2019 - 02:42pm PT
Bloody reindeer think they own the road!

briham89

Big Wall climber
santa cruz, ca
May 5, 2019 - 04:39pm PT
Yosemite.

Both from a climber and touron stand point it's all over there.....
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
May 5, 2019 - 04:54pm PT
It's pretty rough most places in the east.... My policy for the last few years is to not say much if anything on local forums. this is a cali centric forum so I feel kind of safe blabbing over here.. Gripped magazine just ran an article the 10 best moderate multi pitch routes in Canada. Someone should kick that editor right in the crotch.. Whomever they were they just excecuted 10 great climbs....
tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
May 5, 2019 - 05:19pm PT
Me and a friend were just discussing this very topic this afternoon at the Buttermilks. Actually, a visitor asked about how we felt about all the crowds.

We discussed guidebooks, but the thing we noticed as different than the past is the footage. You can youtube every problem at the main areas and even some obscure stuff. This might be the main difference.

At the Buttermilks, when the crowds show up in the fall, my initial reaction is to avoid the place like the plague. But then I inevitably suck it up, ad head out the main areas because I have three kids and limited time.

What I find, year after year, is that everyone out there is there for the same reason I am. It's really fun.

It's not the same as the old days. It is most certainly different, but I find I can't begrudge folks for coming out.

I guess I have learned to get along and not be grouchy. I'd rather not deal with people, but they're pretty cool at the milks.

norm larson

climber
wilson, wyoming
May 5, 2019 - 05:33pm PT
If you spray you pay.

There are just too many humans competing for limited resources. Climbing isnít really whatís at risk in our futures.
Bobbleseth

Trad climber
Utah
May 5, 2019 - 05:33pm PT



What to do, what to do...

I have a great idea

Try complaining on a dead climbing forum
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 5, 2019 - 06:05pm PT
^^^ Carpe boredom!
Stewart Johnson

Gym climber
top lake
May 5, 2019 - 06:06pm PT
Thatís why I like climbing here in
Northern Cali

One hour hike and ten minute drive for
Solitude
Or
One hour drive and ten minute hike
To the crowds
Duh
johntp

Trad climber
Punter, Little Rock
May 5, 2019 - 06:09pm PT
And I remember when Joshua Tree was lonely...always got a choice of sites in Hidden Valley

Yup. And there was no trouble getting a parking spot in Humber Park, and spend a night there in the trees. No doubt climbing aras are getting overrun. It's not just the internet; also the mass amounts of guidebooks that are available today that list gear required and describe practically every difficult move on a climb.

Me and a friend were just discussing this very topic this afternoon at the Buttermilks
Yup. BITD when one went to the Milks there would be maybe one or two other partys there.

Remember climbing with Roper's guides; all narrative, no topos. Made it interesting.
sharperblue

Mountain climber
San Francisco, California
May 5, 2019 - 06:13pm PT
One word: Canada. Or mid latitude Bolivia. At least itís not part of the Empire. Yet.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
May 5, 2019 - 06:29pm PT
This is funny - always posting pix of remote and sometimes unclimbed peaks - shows up to Supercrack parking lot peak season ... WTF?
seano

Mountain climber
none
May 5, 2019 - 06:42pm PT
There are just too many humans competing for limited resources. Climbing isnít really whatís at risk in our futures.
Remember to spay or neuter your children.
maldaly

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
May 5, 2019 - 06:43pm PT
I think we just got a contract on our house in Boulder so weíre off! Weíre putting our stuff in storage, hooking up the Casita to the back of the Taco and going on a search for a new home. Here are our requirements:

ó A good community of like-minded people. Hopefully friends already.
ó Good river access for fly fishing, rafting and kayaking.
ó Quick access to Nordic ski trails
ó West of the 100th meridian.
ó Lots of local trails to walk the dog.
ó Reasonable access to good medical care (Karen insists). FFL okay.
ó Short approaches to easy climbs.
ó Not too cold. Not too hot.

Help us find a house that has spare rooms so yaíll can bivy here. (Not too long)

Mal & Karen
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2019 - 06:45pm PT
Might be something you would do JLP but I drove to the parking lot, counted the cars, and then went to a buttress with only two other climbers.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 5, 2019 - 07:02pm PT
Help us find a house that has spare rooms so yaíll can bivy here. (Not too long)

Are you limited to the US?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 5, 2019 - 07:14pm PT
And regarding the original question, what to do when the crag or climbing venue you once loved is now overrun by crowds, the answer depends on what you want, and what you're willing to do to get it.

If you can only think in terms of the classics -- Yosemite, J-Tree, the Gunks, Indian Creek, Squamish, the Black, whatever... Well, your best bet is to take up bowling.

If your mind is open, then the world is still your climbing oyster. There are thousands of crags in North America, of all sizes, that are not crowded. So the choice is yours: You can sit around and whine about how all your favorite crags have been spoiled by other people, or you can get off your ass and put in the effort to find and get to the kind of climbing experience you say you want.

As I believe Mr. Donini is well aware.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
May 5, 2019 - 07:34pm PT
Tough to even find parking at the Emeralds today.
Fossil climber

Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
May 5, 2019 - 07:38pm PT
Right on, Ghost.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
May 5, 2019 - 07:55pm PT
The editor of a gunks guidebook update raised many of these issues on MP. The thread is https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/116677196/1st-pitch-tr-on-multi-pitch-routes-gunks .

Of the things Jim mentioned, I think the most controversial was the idea that leading should take precedence over top-roping.

Since climber density will continue to increase, the basic question is whether this large and diverse community can find a way to behave with common decency. It is hard to be optimistic, especially since it only takes a few a$$holes to ruin everyone's day, but perhaps we can pull it off against the odds.

Ultimately, those responsible for the management of popular climbing areas will find it necessary to restrict access.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
May 5, 2019 - 08:10pm PT
Since climber density will continue to increase, the basic question is whether this large and diverse community can find a way to behave with common decency.
Itís all noobs learning from noobs and itís getting worse, IMO - this is the main problem.

When I started, as most here I think, a strong culture existed and was much greater than the sum of what new climbers brought in each new season. You got assimilated, not the other way around, and maybe it took a year or two to learn to wipe your butt right out in the woods.

Now itís like absolutely everything is discarded, destroyed, ignored or just not at all understood as an impossibly large flood of new people come in.
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
May 5, 2019 - 08:48pm PT
but today's 'community' is SO FRICKIN' HUGE and self-oriented that I see virtually zero hope for self-management

Seems a bit over the top. The number of serious climbers is probably still pretty small.

Supercrack Buttress has been crowded for years . . . there are many other crags out there.


This choss pile could use some traffic, any takers?
d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
May 5, 2019 - 09:18pm PT
At least the hordes have
descended. Cliff side rescue
is a mutha.

Our beloved activity has
been loved to death.
Who can be to blame?
Once one gets hooked
no stopping"the hordes".
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 5, 2019 - 10:10pm PT
For me climbing is not a social activity, but a communing with wilderness.
Same rules as in the 50s and 60s: if there are any other people anywhere around, go somewhere else.
There used to normally on any given day be no one on El Cap or most other Valley formations.
While we were making my autobiographical movie, 'Solo', we didn't see any other climbers around.
It's fine that has changed, but that's not my place any longer
DanaB

climber
CO
May 5, 2019 - 10:35pm PT
If I am at a climbing area, I'm one of the crowd that people are complaining about.

I was at Clear Creek on Friday, The parking lots for the popular crags were packed by 9 am, but we went somewhere a bit out of the way - no one there the whole day. But if you had specific routes you'd like to try, that approach doesn't help.

Things can be hit or miss. I've seen at least 20 climbers on Crimson Chrysalis - no exaggeration - and I've seen it empty the whole day.

At areas like El Dorado and the 'Gunks, I'm afraid that the self-selection process of get there early if you want to get in will eventually fail and as Rich noted, there will rationing, perhaps like it's practiced in some back country destinations.

I am so, so grateful I was able to experience areas like the 'Gunks, New River, RMNP, Red Rocks and so on at a time when they weren't so crowded. I was very lucky.
iron duchess maiden or whatever

Social climber
under a pile of rock
May 6, 2019 - 04:25am PT
Jim, Jim... Jim!

Follow the Tuo Riv down past Glen Aulin. I told you at Facelift 2010.
You must go there. My heart still pounds thinking about that place.
You can also come uphill from HH. Look at the satellite images on googlemaps if you don't believe it.

Cheers!
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
May 6, 2019 - 05:12am PT
^^ come on, zip yer lips-er fingers!
We don't need that ship to sink as well.
Don Paul

Social climber
Washington DC
May 6, 2019 - 05:15am PT
Oh yeah, the good old days, when no one climbed in Yosemite or the Gunks. You know, all the gps and whatnot can also get people away from the trails and campgrounds. Although that kind of climbing might not help with your ticklist.
Nick Danger

Ice climber
Arvada, CO
May 6, 2019 - 06:34am PT
Two of my other passions are riding my motorbike on windy roads and paddling my boat gently down the stream. While doing these things I am always finding cracks with no one around. There is a huge amount of steep real estate just waiting to be discovered and finding it can be as entertaining as climbing it, true word.

With regards to leaving Boulder, my lovely bride Pam and I have just made the same decision (although we are just down the road apiece in Arvada). We have found our dream spot in northern New Mexico.

Be well everyone.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
May 6, 2019 - 07:21am PT
The Access Fund posted an excellent piece about this; https://www.accessfund.org/open-gate-blog/the-rise-in-climbing-and-the-hidden-cost-of-fame . A quote from Croft:

ďWe need to say goodbye to a past where we could do whatever we wanted, wherever we wanted...With grit and common purpose, we can protect our most precious climbing resources, and by starting now we get to chart our own course, and create the future we want to see."
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
May 6, 2019 - 07:26am PT
Boomers are weird. Still looking for roots, community and home at retirement age. Rootless
A Essex

climber
May 6, 2019 - 08:31am PT
bolted trad anchors are aid

take away the easy way down, and gym-trained hoardes will go elsewhere
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 6, 2019 - 08:42am PT
^^^^ That ainít happening so whatís next?
A Essex

climber
May 6, 2019 - 08:52am PT
chop chop

that'll learn em

thatswut u get fur making trad convenient

IC is a gym with cams at this point. sad.
bbbeans

Trad climber
May 6, 2019 - 10:01am PT
Humans are selfish.

Climbers, new and old, hurt crags sometimes.

Baby-boomers have done a lot to hurt the planet at the expense of future generations.

Everyone should be humble and try to be part of a solution. Easier said than done.

eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
May 6, 2019 - 10:12am PT
I regret my postings about the Black.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
May 6, 2019 - 10:15am PT
I think that Access Fund article posted by rgold is well worth reading. I agree that the high impact areas are going to need some infrastructure to protect the resource. Part of that is the old guard letting go of the initial reaction that climbing areas are wild and should be let alone- many of them no longer are and doing nothing just leads to erosion, corn-back rattlers under every rock and trampled vegetation.

As for the crowds themselves, I dunno. In my opinion, groups often cause the biggest problems, followed by teams getting on classics that they are not ready for and clogging up the route. But what can you do? Maybe some etiquette education effort by the Access Fund and AAC?
phylp

Trad climber
Upland, CA
May 6, 2019 - 10:17am PT
Mal - Reno, Nevada area? For the good medical care, it's helpful to have a bit larger population base. You can get lots of places for skiing, fishing, hiking etc. pretty quickly from Reno...I've had a couple of friends move there from the SF Bay area and they are pretty happy with their decision. I retired to southern California because I cannot tolerate any cold, but I don't think Reno is much different than Boulder for cold.

As to your initial question, Jim, I know the hordes must be out there but I haven't had much issue with them. Climbing weekdays still makes a huge difference - most climbers have M-F work and school schedules.

People are complaining about hordes at Joshua Tree. I was there during Spring Break week with Skip. I know there were crowds because we had to wait in the car line at the entrance. But We had two days of climbing in areas with NO other climbers in sight. We deliberately chose areas that required a bit of walking. And the weather wasn't picture perfect - maybe that combo of distance plus weather scared people away?

And I just did Frogland in Red Rocks for the nth time because my partner had never done it. It was a Saturday but it was hot. Only one other party ahead of us and none behind that we could hear. And after one hot pitch in the sun to start, the rest was perfect.

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 6, 2019 - 11:26am PT
IC is a gym with cams at this point. sad.

What should it be? 99% of the climbs do not top out. It is almost exclusively single pitch. There is going to be be some sort of fixed gear to lower on, might as well be a pair of bolts. Sure there are people, if you do not like crowds then your options are very limited. I have only been going to IC for 3 years, although I have been climbing since the mid eighties. Everywhere decent has become crowded especially weekends, but not to the point that you can not get on something fun. At least it is better than surfing, 20 guys fighting for the same wave when the swell hits. Or are there now turf fights breaking out in the parking lot at Real Hidden Valley?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 6, 2019 - 12:01pm PT
I donít hate climbers...But I seem to feel better when theyíre not around......
A Essex

climber
May 6, 2019 - 12:19pm PT
What should it be? 99% of the climbs do not top out. It is almost exclusively single pitch.

there's ur problem

trad shouldn't be 'single pitch'

did the Stonemasters aspire to 'single pitch'??

No! they topped out multi-pitch and walked off like Men!!!!

chop the convenience anchors and the hoards of gym rat instagrammer millenials will cease
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 6, 2019 - 12:48pm PT
Close the bloody road and theyíll disappear faster than you can say ďtoqueĒ!
Don Paul

Social climber
Washington DC
May 6, 2019 - 01:55pm PT
Folks, Indian Creek is a gymnasium because there are many developed routes and legal camping. If you look around a little you will see there is more of the wingate in other parts of Utah. A hundred times more? A thousand? Everyone goes to Indian Creek because that's the scene.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 6, 2019 - 02:27pm PT
Don Paul, nice point....the scene. It's been there for me since junior high. I loved being part of the scene all my life until two very special friends taught me to value just being alone with the rock, the wilderness and the creation. Still getting used to the concept.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
May 6, 2019 - 02:27pm PT
Yeah, the internet has a way of sucking!

I can't mention my favorite zone but it too is/has been getting crowded. I don't do much tech climbing anymore, just scrambles that might reach 5.6/5.7. I am seeing more expanded parking lots and toilets at most trailheads. Most vehicles have REI/Backcountry stickers and aren't the kind of vehicles the locals drove 2 decades ago. Even our local NPR radio station has weekly wilderness hike recommendations sponsored by the Wilderness Association...can you frikking say Irony with a capital turd?!?!?!

I have noticed more evidence at the bases too. I thought climbers like a natural look?

Even the choss piles are talked about at coffee shops now!!!

Thank the earth for ID is all I can say. You need a strong local redneck population to keep the hordes down IMHO. Of course that has it's own 'factors' too but I'll bet dollars to soft drinks a rednecks carbon footprint is a fraction of our new travel/camp anywhere lifestylers of the modern era.
DanaB

climber
CO
May 6, 2019 - 02:43pm PT

Baby-boomers have done a lot to hurt the planet at the expense of future generations.

So sorry. That must be very difficult for you to deal with.
jogill

climber
Colorado
May 6, 2019 - 02:45pm PT
Return to an old fashion gym and take up mens' gymnastics. You can hear a pin drop.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 6, 2019 - 02:47pm PT
Great generalization DanaB.

John Gill, right on.
hooblie

climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
May 6, 2019 - 03:05pm PT
I donít hate climbers...But I seem to feel better when theyíre not around......
NOW we're gettin' down to it ... keep a sheath on it boys!

~~~~

... and long overdue that rottingjohnny should be buried in a pile of nods
Levy

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
May 6, 2019 - 03:11pm PT
I was in the Kern Canyon this past weekend and saw only 2 other parties all weekend long.

Nobody else at Valhalla, 2 parties up at Kern Slabs (aka: Kernville Rock).

No waits in line, no full parking lots, just glorious rock and sunny breezes.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2019 - 03:52pm PT
Okay, I am going to make a generalization that many will disagree with. People have noted on this thread that the further you have to hike to a climb the fewer climbers there are. This has always been true but I think it is more evident today than ever before.

I do a lot of hiking in the San Juan Mountains near Ouray and I have noticed that the majority of hikers are middle age or older even on weekends when the retiree demographic doesnít have an advantage. Any outdoor store will tell you that their sales of large packs suitable for multi day backpacking have decreased markedly over the last couple of decades.

Todayís youth are experiencing intense marketing from companies like Red Bull to get involved in extreme athlectic activities that are short in duration but long in intensity.

And then there is the way todayís youth are introduced to climbing vs. previous generations. Many of my generation started by hiking in the mountains for both the physical activity and also to experience the beauty and the wildlife there. For some, that led to a desire to get to the tops of the mountains and the need to develop the skills and expertise to do so safely.

Additionally, a great many people of my generation were introduced by outing clubs at the colleges they attended. These clubs had a holistic approach that included multiple day backpacking trips.

I believe that a majority of todayís climbers were first introduced to climbing in gyms were the main emphasis is on the athletic part of climbing. They then, usually, move outdoors to sport climbing where the emphasis, again, is on the athletic aspect of climbing. You wonít find many sport crags very far from where you park your car.

This along with todayís theme of get a big bang for your buck but do it in time to socilaize at the brew pub are concentrating the vast majority of climbers at venues high in difficulty and short in approach.

As with any generalization there are many exceptions. There are many phenomenal young alpinists who seek out gems in remote and very difficult to get to places.

Trump

climber
May 6, 2019 - 03:52pm PT
I just saw a great bump sticker that said ďOh, lighten up!Ē

I like it! They were taking it so seriously that they felt like they needed to scold me for taking it too seriously.

I thought of telling them ďOh, lighten up!Ē back, but, you know, I didnít want to be part of the problem.

People are funny! Itís good to be able to laugh at them.

Places get overcrowded when other people are there. If we donít go, they wonít seem overcrowded to us, and they will actually be less crowded. If we do go, then they will be crowded, and weíll be part of the crowding problem.

Oh, lighten up, us! Itís kind of a funny conundrum weíre in.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 6, 2019 - 03:59pm PT
I like (and try) to laugh at myself. Who am I anyway? And, just to keep on topic, when the hordes descend and they see me alone, laughing, often they leave that piece of rock....just for me. :)
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 6, 2019 - 04:01pm PT
Lynne, when they see me THEY start laughing and then they canít climb. 🤡
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
May 6, 2019 - 04:20pm PT
I don't climb much any more, so this is not a big issue for me. But...what has replaced climbing is landscape photography, and the same thing is an issue there. Basically between the fact that there's just more people than in the 70s and 80s, and the internet, particularly social media, popular sites get overrun.
Places that used to get hardly any traffic, like Mesa Arch or Horseshoe Bend are super crowded now.
maldaly

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
May 6, 2019 - 05:26pm PT
stevep, I'm with you brother. I've developed a new landscape photo philosophy:

Don't take someone else's photo.

In other words, I won't shoot Horseshoe Bend or Mesa Arch (or wherever) unless I'm good enough to make a photo that's demonstrably different than all the Instagram and gallery and calendar photos that are already out there.

Mal
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 6, 2019 - 05:59pm PT
Okay, I am going to make a generalization that many will disagree with.

Sorry Jim, but I didn't see anything in your post to disagree with. I don't know if that means that one of us needs to try harder to be more cantankerous, but the bottom line to your thoughts, as far as I can tell, is that things change. Hard to disagree with that.

Do you remember how these same debates occurred when we were young? Okay, there was no internet, but there was plenty of action in the "Letters to the Editor" columns of the climbing journals. The young guys, when we were young, were doing things that the old guys found distasteful.

Fast forward 50 years and...

...young people are doing things that old people find distasteful.

But, for me, the really important thing in your post is that last paragraph:

As with any generalization there are many exceptions. There are many phenomenal young alpinists who seek out gems in remote and very difficult to get to places.

Damn right. Even here in my tiny community in a remote spot on the BC coast, there are a few young guys pushing out into even remoter valleys and testing themselves on the big walls they find there.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
May 6, 2019 - 06:12pm PT
Any outdoor store will tell you that their sales of large packs suitable for multi day backpacking have decreased markedly over the last couple of decades.
IMO, most of the trails those packs were being sold for are now 1 day trail runs.

A hike is not a significant barrier. There are plenty of strong and fit people out there. Just because they started in a gym doesnít mean anything. The remote stuff is more crowded too, in proportion. Cirque of the Towers in the Wind River is an easy example.
Trump

climber
May 6, 2019 - 07:52pm PT
In the Venn diagram of the objective truth of what climbing is, and the truth of what a climber is, the intersection with backpacking is larger than the intersection with socializing. Just look at the Venn diagram in my mind and youíll see quite clearly which is a more holistic perspective on climbing.

Ok if the words we choose to use say so, even when the hordes of (other) climbers donít. My perspective is that old school is just objectively a more holistic perspective - itís unrelated to me being from an old school. Iíll bet the old schoolers will agree.

Oh lighten up, us! We sure have funny ways of convincing ourselves that weíre right.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 6, 2019 - 08:44pm PT
Imitating a banned poster is grounds for being banned....Sound the dork alarm.....
F10

Trad climber
Bishop
May 6, 2019 - 08:54pm PT
Bishop,

Keep on driving, way to crowded for me. Especially from my my first trip to the Buttermilk boulders in 72í
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 6, 2019 - 09:12pm PT
Iíve been hacked !!
A Essex

climber
May 7, 2019 - 07:06am PT

trads never should have allowed bolted convenience anchors to become acceptable

you reap what you sow
ddriver

Trad climber
SLC, UT
May 7, 2019 - 07:11am PT
IMO, Jimbo NAILS it...

"I believe that a majority of todayís climbers were first introduced to climbing in gyms were the main emphasis is on the athletic part of climbing. They then, usually, move outdoors to sport climbing where the emphasis, again, is on the athletic aspect of climbing."

Lot of truth there. There are just way more climbers and so, yeah, the Cirque and the Black are also more crowded. But, the preponderance of newer climbers seem attracted to two factors: convenience and social interaction at the crag, much a like a gym, huh.

No wonder the Creek is so damn crowded now, it behaves just like a gym even though you use gear, run up, clip the anchors, lower off. Same reason people get dropped there, too much social interaction, like distracted driving.

Little Cottonwood was a beautiful mostly sunny 70 degrees Sunday. Almost no one out, kinda strange. It's just not quite as convenient. Weekend before hiked up to the Upper S-Curves in Big Cottonwood, a convenience area. Walking past the groupies at the lower S-Curve and one asks what we're "going to project." WTF. We don't "project," we climb we say. Gym think at work.

Fortunately we have a lot of crags here that aren't convenient and aren't social. I now generally try to avoid convenience areas, and that includes the Creek.
Don Paul

Social climber
Washington DC
May 7, 2019 - 07:12am PT
You would think the Superbowl would have more capacity considering the immensity of the valley it's in. This is site #1 in the Bridger Jacks campground, although I guess that fills up too. As you can see there is an expansive area behind the site. There are hundreds and hundreds of miles of these wingate sandstone walls with supercracks still yet to be found, all across Utah and in neighboring states.


As for hiking, in Colorado there are about 50 14ers and about 500 13ers. I have a book I found on eBay with the details of the 13ers, although I had heard of almost none of them and they don't have built up trails to the tops. The hiking begins once you step off the trail imo.

*JLP you have correctly surmised that I have not climbed the 500 13ers but it's mostly laziness in figuring out the logistics. My favorite hiking areas in CO are the Park and Indian Peaks. Both heavily visited but become wilderness again once you step off the trail.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
May 7, 2019 - 07:29am PT
I have a book I found on eBay with the details of the 13ers, although I had heard of almost none of them and they don't have built up trails to the tops.
Yeah - post back after you've done a few. For starters, they tend to share trailheads and camping with other peaks and activities. Itís not just climbing thatís been over-run.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
May 7, 2019 - 08:51am PT

I still jump on random rocks.
If it were not for a fear of Ticks I'd still be searching along the contours of hillsides for double-gnome-size granitic schist to climb.

It IS the journey & fun of discovery, the exploration that satisfies the gnawing need . . . That scratches the itch. . .
That brings the glow of wonder out of the glorious cathedral of nature
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2019 - 11:47am PT
I love enchaining 13íers....few trails and no people and there are 600 of them in Colorado. 14íers are overrun with people ďpressure breathingĒ....yikes, at the pace theyíre going you hardly have to breathe thru your mouth!
Decko

Trad climber
Colorado
May 7, 2019 - 12:19pm PT
Drink more beer......

Climb less...

All of Colorado is crowded.....
seano

Mountain climber
none
May 7, 2019 - 12:30pm PT
I have a book I found on eBay with the details of the 13ers, although I had heard of almost none of them and they don't have built up trails to the tops.
Ormes? As recently as 10 years ago, most 14ers didn't have built up trails. Stay away from areas with 14ers (and, increasingly, "Centennials," or highest 100 peaks), and you'll still have the mountains to yourself.
Don Paul

Social climber
Washington DC
May 7, 2019 - 12:48pm PT
^ not Ormes, author is Garratt, title is Colorados High Thirteeners. There is one on eBay now for $4.23, including shipping. Get yours today. It's an old school guidebook, with only vague descriptions and clues, but a lifetime of exploration of you're up for it.

Jim I am envious of your motivation and experience. If a thirteener is too small, link them up. But only in Colorado do people think there's a big difference between 13 and 14k.

Living in Washington DC as I do now, there is no outdoors at all and no feeling like the place is being overpopulated. My only adventure sport these days is riding a bike in traffic.
seano

Mountain climber
none
May 7, 2019 - 01:42pm PT
author is Garratt, title is Colorados High Thirteeners
Thanks. If you get a chance, pick up a copy of Ormes, preferably one of the older editions. The early ones are truly old-school, with route descriptions like "the east ridge is class 3." I particularly enjoyed his route description for Lizard Head, which was something like "hike to the base, take a picture, then turn around."

His autobiography, A Farewell to Ormes, is also a good read.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
May 7, 2019 - 02:30pm PT
I love enchaining 13íers....
I could see that working out a little better for you near Ouray than for us Front Rangers. Indian Peaks, 4th of July, Bear Lake -> massive crowds.
cragnshag

Social climber
Gilroy
May 7, 2019 - 02:36pm PT
Humans are social animals. Most of us crave contact with other humans from our tribe (the climbing tribe, in this case). That's why crags are crowded. Most people either like the company or don't mind the company at crowded crags. If they didn't, they would not go there in the first place.

Think of a nightclub with a line in front to get in. Then think of a seedy bar with the only people being 3 or 4 drunks hunched over their drinks, contemplating their miserable lives. Which venue would you rather go to? Most folks choose the crowded nightclub, just like most choose the crowded crag.

In Yosemite there are about 200 climbs that get done all the time and you are likely to encounter others on the climb or nearby. There are 2800 other climbs to choose from where you don'y have to wait in line. Many of these are great climbs AND are not that far a hike to get to.

So to respond to Jim... I don't see the problem here. If a crag is crowded, don't go to that crag if you don't enjoy the social aspect. If you want solitude, go where others don't- which is 95% of the rest of the cliffs. Easy.
limpingcrab

Gym climber
Minkler, CA
May 7, 2019 - 02:39pm PT
Just walk a mile from the car and you're usually good to go.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2019 - 03:19pm PT
There are good reasons that 2,800 climbs in Yosemite lie fallow and many cliffs donít have traffic...the climbing isn't that good. Climbers are always going to congregate around the best climbing at thatís where the problem lies.
Personally I have little difficulty finding uncrowded climbing. I put together a climbers camp on the Biafo Glacier in the Karakoram and will be there with seven others for seven weeks this summer. I have the means and experience to take my passion to far flung places not available to the great majority of climbers.
I am trying to provide some perspective on observations made over a long career and offer up ideas to help mitigate the crowding that I have observed.
There are few secrets in the internet age and world class climbing will (by definition) attract people from around the world.
I am not bemoaning the situation, I am observing it. Far be it for me to want young and new climbers not to sample the best climbing as I have.
Long approaches will, and always have, been a major factor in limiting crowds but in todayís crazy, busy world we are going to see more and more climbers wanting to feast on some of the areas that provide excellent and easy to get to climbing.
These particular areas are being loved to death and we need to take serious measures to:
*make the experience as good as possible to all climbers
*protect the crags and the adjacent land from environmental deterioration
*repair the damage already incurred
*create safe and adequate parking
*provide sanitary camping
*deal effectively with human waste
Most climbing is on public lands and most land managers recognize the legitimacy of climbing but will take measures to curtail climbing if it jeopardizes the environment.
The Access Fund recognizes the situation as does the AAC. It behooves climbers to support these organizations. It also is a wake up call for people who regularily use an area to take an ACTIVE role in protecting the places where they play. Start your own grassroots stewardship program. Believe me, land managers rarely see that from other special user groups and it will go a long way in keeping your favorite area open.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 7, 2019 - 05:52pm PT
There are good reasons that 2,800 climbs in Yosemite lie fallow and many cliffs donít have traffic...the climbing isn't that good. Climbers are always going to congregate around the best climbing at thatís where the problem lies.

I am in full agreement with the rest of your post above, but definitely not with that opening line. Perhaps it is true in Yosemite. I've only climbed there a few times, so I can't speak to the worth of all 3,000 (or however many) climbs. But in many areas, climbers congregate not around "the best climbing", but rather around the climbs with the most stars in the guidebook (or written up as being super cool on the internet).

A couple of examples from Red Rocks, which, like many internationally renowned climbing areas, attracts about three zillion climbers every year.

Example 1: One fairly cold early-season day we decided to climb Birdland. We'd climbed it before but it's a fun route and we knew it would be in the sun. As we got closer, we could see two parties already on the climb, but weren't worried because we figured they would both be well ahead of us. Ha! when we got up to the base there was a third party just starting, and four more parties waiting for their turn! So we walked uphill about forty feet and found no one on a climb called Rawlpindi.

Same grade as Birdland. Same length. Finish at the same point about 5 pitches up.

As we were racking up, another party arrived. But when we couldn't tell them anything about the climb (we'd never been on it), they decided to go and get in line for Birdland.

As it turned out, Rawlpindi was (in our view) actually a more enjoyable climb. More varied. But, since it had no stars, we had it to ourselves while seven parties were enjoying each other's company on Birdland (which has multiple guidebook stars).

Example 2: Basically the same as above, but on Chrimson Chrysalis. Or rather on Ginger Cracks, because CC (multiple stars) had a huge lineup. Ginger Cracks, despite being a stellar climb, isn't guidebood starred, and we spent the day on it with just one other party (several pitches above us, so not really an issue).

I've seen similar silliness in other areas. Climbs that get multiple guidebook stars are overrun. Climbs that are equally good (or even better), but which aren't starred, are often empty.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
May 7, 2019 - 06:02pm PT
Even at the Gunks, just pick a midweek day at sunrise and you'll have the place almost to yourself, for a couple of hours at least. Even on the worst weekends in the Fall, the upper pitches are often free, just link a few without ever going back to the ground (see multiple threads on multiple forums about the gang-roping problems).

Perversely enough, on some of those crazy weekends, I've walked up to some of the classics to find them open, people are so sure they'd be taken, they don't even bother looking. In my Noob days I assured everyone I'd lead High E if we didn't have to wait in line, on a Saturday, in September. Confident that I'd never have to walk the talk, we arrived at the base to find it not only empty, but empty enough that our group of 6 or 7 all took turns to lead the last pitch before any other group reached the GT ledge, while those capable took turns on Modern Times.

TE
Hungry

Trad climber
the new world
May 7, 2019 - 06:48pm PT
That guidebooks and the like which hype certain climbs effectively concentrate climbers on certain routes where they are willing to climb with parties above and below them the whole way is a good thing. Anything that results in dispersing people so that they end up on other routes would be a bad thing. Please stop talking about it. Maximum density on the ďgoodĒ routes or the ďbestĒ crags is desirable. Do what you can to enhance the hype of the select classics. I don't need to see more people on the other routes Ė especially at RR. Please just keep talking up how great those classics are so that I can climb in peace.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2019 - 07:04pm PT
Ghost, I stand corrected, you are right. I have done many climbs not given many stars that I thought were great and I have done many highly starred climbs that seemed ordinary.

Climbers sheepily follow the written word and que up for a climb when good alternatives are next door. This is another reason I donít like ďselectĒ guidebooks. Quality ratings are even more subjective then difficulty ratings.
steve s

Trad climber
eldo
May 7, 2019 - 07:23pm PT
One manís junk is another manís treasure.
Also ....timing is everything.
seano

Mountain climber
none
May 7, 2019 - 07:25pm PT
Do what you can to enhance the hype of the select classics. I don't need to see more people on the other routes Ė especially at RR. Please just keep talking up how great those classics are so that I can climb in peace.

This hits close to home. I have written, edited, and mostly typeset a guidebook to some of my favorite routes in the lower 48 and western Canada (including Red Rocks). Many are well-known, but some are not. My instinct has always been to share the knowledge, because I have benefited so much from various guidebooks and online resources, and want to give back to the community. However, I increasingly wonder if I should just keep quiet. Many of the routes are a safe distance from LA/SF/LV/Denver, but there are a couple in Red Rocks, one of them still relatively obscure.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
May 7, 2019 - 07:37pm PT
There is definitely a herd mentality which I believe is reinforced by many newer climbers learning in the gym and who lack the background or experience to explore something not entirely familiar. I have also noticed that alot of the crowds are due to bouldering, not roped climbers. I was out at Josh about a month ago (boy has that place changed) and, while there were 20 people sitting around Pig Pen, there were few climbers on roped climbs, even in HVCG. It was odd but reassuring in a way. I don't blame people for wanting to visit the places that we've been raving about for years. How we deal with the crowds and impact will be a challenge in the years to come.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
May 7, 2019 - 07:44pm PT
real mean enchain groups of 13ers and force them to enslave whole ranges of 12ers. and they don't spray about it, or popularize it
hellroaring

Trad climber
San Francisco
May 8, 2019 - 02:53pm PT
So itís not like Yosemite or Josh, but Iíve been out to Pinnacles twice in the last couple weeks and didnít see a single other climber, even at the more popular spots close to the road. Itís even still green & lush. More worries about poison oak and those pesky detachable holds than crowds. The question Iíd like to pose is if you can only get out a handful of times a year would you choose classic and crowded, or not so classic (but still fun) and uncrowded?
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
May 9, 2019 - 06:22am PT
The "Gunks" main areas suffer from polished holds and overcrowding of routes.
This is due to the (near-criminal) 20 yr old policy of adding convenience bolted anchors at 75-80 feet.
There can be people waiting all day for some climbs.
On 3 day weekend days the lines get silly long. Sometimes, still 10 climbers deep at 6pm.
Even 'Millbrook' now sees "crowds" of 15 parties on a busy weekend.

A place that stays un-crowded far from the maddening hoard, not all the to Tillson way down Springtown, Now a long walk,
but where you can find solitude at every grade of clamber,
and never see another climber.
I am proud to publish this picture in protest to the placement of bolts along the ridge.
If only my friends & I had been more independent,
and run our lives as modern climbers.
We would have left a legacy of 5.11 &12s all graded 5.10+
Don Paul

Social climber
Washington DC
May 9, 2019 - 07:58am PT
Already done gnome. I learned at the Gunks and climbed about two dozen 5.10s before moving west, where I was instantly a 5.11 climber and already comfortable with sketchy gear. I wouldn't be surprised if some were 12.a western. But that's a special case, right next to NYC. An island in a sea of traffic and trash, the Gunks was a refuge for me.

JLP next time you are on the 4th of July trail take a left turn when you get to the mine. Cross that valley to jasper and climb neva from that side and there are some crags there too, Multi pitch. You won't see anyone even in peak season. Plus there are backcountry campsites by the lake.
couchmaster

climber
May 9, 2019 - 08:08am PT


Like Ghost notes above, I often pick up uncrowded great route recommendations from online threads. Routes that are often not in the guidebooks yet. Which makes me wanting to share them outside of my circle much more difficult of course.
BruceHildenbrand

Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
May 10, 2019 - 11:02am PT
More hordes coming your way.......

https://rockandice.com/climbing-news/1-million-10-walls-and-100000-kids/
Oldfattradguy2

Trad climber
Here and there
May 10, 2019 - 03:25pm PT
Gnome (aka Donald Perry)
Your foto is in my masterís degree thesis area, does that mean I have ownership rights??? In the Ď80ís the community decided against publishing fotos of the area in magazines.

Some one needs to tell the story of one of the guys who owns ( or owned) part of the area to the north of that cliff, he was shot down after opening fire on cops after blowing up his wifeís divorce lawyerís car to get his attention, he then shot him.....his brother was one of the guys the army tested ĎSid on. I wish I could make this kind of stuff up!
capseeboy

Social climber
wandering star
May 10, 2019 - 03:53pm PT
Do what Bill Tilman did, take up sailing.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 10, 2019 - 05:31pm PT
And sail off into the sunset never to be seen again.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
May 10, 2019 - 08:18pm PT
so I moved it

All along a pretty roadside lakeStill no chalk

Todd, I am not Donald Perry











ever/never care
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 10, 2019 - 08:41pm PT
What was northern lights owners name gmnome ?
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
May 10, 2019 - 08:45pm PT
Sorry ? was that a for real question?

The Last name was in that drunken ramble, that I have mostly, deleted.
Why?
are we name dropping?
Dave, who knew how to throw a few back & toss a dwarf...
He & Claud once threw me up at a ledge; I caught the edge of it and scampered up. Then I set up an anchor and brought them up.

More than a decade later a different "Dwarf Toss"
became the name of a hard boulder problem

At 1st on the way I took it I had said:
If you don't know then I'm not saying

I also dated Claud's, niece
What was her uncle's last name?


I should gnow better than to post while drinking on a Friday night


J R

climber
bend
May 19, 2019 - 09:44am PT
I've been a bit depressed about all this lately. We've decided to sell the home on Mt Evans and hit the road. Hopefully the snow stops falling so we can try to finish a couple routes on the black wall before it is time to go. Climbing has changed substantially over the past decade. Yes, the black canyon has been discovered. A couple weeks ago I was turned away from Eldo on a weekday. Overnight parking and camping around Squamish will be illegal soon. The youngsters are a different crowd and its getting harder to find solitude in the mountains.

We're going to use this as an opportunity to travel and visit places we've always wanted to visit, buy a couple pieces of land in a couple favorite spots, and hopefully not work too much.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
May 19, 2019 - 10:15am PT
yikes no!
The last time someone guessed,& was wrong I let it ride
that stupid person deserved it.
so I made no attempt to correct it,
But Rich Ross-"Red Swami" was still around
& quick to point out the mistaken identity.
but not before "Kunlun_shan" took off running with the mistake\sigh!

This time I'm not waiting,
I am not Donald Perry.

@Wix.comm's Tri-State Rock Climbing
maybe.
(Family dysfunction necessitates that I remain less searchable)
Gnome Ofthe Diabase?
Definitively!

Start by hopping off the boulder to reach the 'holes'
1st ascent accomplished in the dark during a kegger...
Hi-E The Hard Way(5.9 how good is your belay person? r/x)
.
There are very few pictures of me climbing,
this one from NJ '83?Oldfattradguy2,
While I know you, it is clear you have no memory of me.
We had many friends in common, but I also had a Mnt house connection.
That kind of changed when Tor fell Ice climbing, he was at Dartmouth.
I went to Paul Smiths College.

seems like I was 1st around enough to notice in the spring of '84.


I washed dishes at Bacchus, Craft booted from a job at Northern Lights...


Oldfattradguy2 knows who I mentioned
& that was who I was adding this for.
I could fill in the names of the sad story Oldfatradguy2 was telling.
More interesting is that for a while there was a manhunt
(I'm actually not sure if I remember that 1st name)
for that brother, he hid out on the cliff.
In my climbing adventures, I found his hideouts,
A nook under an overhang midway up a steep but easy corner,
{Might be one of those in the picture}
The ledge has a large block in front &
provided a perfect 20 by 20 'room'.
That was set up; a fire-ring against the back wall that vented up a chimney crack
 & stocked with a bunch of gallon water jugs, rice,
cans of beans, chili, & tuna 2 pots, kindling & matches
And a homemade walking stick/cane.

.The stick I use when needed, (weather-proofed; dipped in poly-urethane) . .
I was a touring Dead Head working with Mikio & Gretchen
there were lots of weeks of here & there...In between Jerry & Dead Trips...
I was still using an NJ drivers Lic/address,
then in '86 the NJ guide book author, Neil Aj Sloan
and I were issued 'appearance tickets'
Busted/fined due to his big mouth
& climbing at Watchung.
He did not show up in court, I pled out & agreed to make my residence in New York legal.
The reason that I got a NewPaltz address in '86.
By '86-87 almost everyone, who was crushing it, that was not named Mike, rich, Al or Jordan-
had moved on.
All the crew that I was cool with, but for Jimmy & Dave~
(Morris H, Scott F, Colin L, DaveLuhahn & Big Dave, Sal M, ...to name drop a few of the slew of near 20 who graduated , & so moved on_ west ;)



what is it about the mix of the old masters that set the never-were-evers- off?
telemon01? Did you ever work as a climbing guide, a glorified rope-gun in the 'Dacks or Gunks?
The clients get less time on the rock, a short day,
if you don't go to the best gang-able route when you have a larger group.
This is a trick that once learned, is also applied to personal, unpaid days to maximize fun.
It is fun to climb in groups these days.

I looked, you say that you started out on Adirondack slabs in the early '80s? I was at Paul Smiths '80-'83
Also I had posted that ski poster, that one you were asking if anyone remembers: the "Yellow Jump-suit Ski poster" "Keep Your Tips Up"
My point is as obscured as your's
What are you trying to imply?
kind of long reach to add a Wizard Of Oz video that makes No obvious point in this discussion,,,


Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
May 20, 2019 - 06:36pm PT
Hah, the irony of the guy that introduced the 20 person gumbie gang bang to the creek suggesting that leaders have right of way. They did before someone taught them that if they got 8 people who were moderately interested in climbing together, they could spend the day clogging up 1-2 classics as they shared their way up the route.

At least sister Mary Catherine and Acura have taken up the mantle of introducing people to the desert long before they have any business climbing there. Proud legacy right there.
telemon01

Trad climber
Montana
May 20, 2019 - 06:48pm PT
Amen Brother
telemon01

Trad climber
Montana
May 20, 2019 - 06:50pm PT
Look At Me!
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2019 - 06:54pm PT
Trashman talking trash...hey dude, in case you donít know if I had people at a climb and someone came by who wanted to do it I offered them a ride or pulled the rope and stepped aside. Get your facts down before mouthing off.
telemon01

Trad climber
Montana
May 20, 2019 - 07:01pm PT
[url="http://https://youtu.be/aopdD9Cu-So"]http://https://youtu.be/aopdD9Cu-So[/url]
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