Is SuperTopo getting positioned for sale?

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Messages 1 - 49 of total 49 in this topic
Gunkie

Trad climber
Valles Marineris
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 22, 2019 - 11:32am PT
Just curious. Seems like a bit of house cleaning going on.
Matt's

climber
Apr 22, 2019 - 11:38am PT
you really think this forum has positive cash flow?
who would buy this asset?

brotherbbock

climber
So-Cal
Apr 22, 2019 - 11:50am PT
^^^LOL
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Apr 22, 2019 - 11:56am PT
If it does not have positive cash flow it would have gone away long ago.

Not saying it makes a ton of money. I have no idea.

Lots of companies would by this.
John M

climber
Apr 22, 2019 - 11:59am PT
RJ and Chris said recently that no sale has been contemplated. The clean up appears to have been motivated by a potential/threatened lawsuit over copy right infringement. They have said that the threatened lawsuit did not come from a climber, but have declined to say from whom. Likely they don't want to trigger an attack from someone on this forum, thus aggravating a situation that they are tying to ease out of so as to avoid a lawsuit.

I don't really understand the timing, nor why they felt they had to do it in such as rush manner that it triggered a few people to say insulting things, getting them completely removed, ( Tad for one ) and triggering others to ask to be completely deleted ( DMT, Moosedrool , Walleye and potentially others )

It seems to me that if the offending material was deleted, then there would have been time to work out the rest. But as they haven't been willing to go into greater detail, then its only speculation. Perhaps there was a reason for the rush, but then I wish they had had greater trust in many of us and just told us.

Its clearly a mess. Ekat is trying to get people to calm down and see what can be salvaged. The changes are fairly severe. No more hot links, which has messed up many threads. Many people not happy with that. No more politics. Mixed feelings on that.. strong feelings in both directions. Many peoples entire photo accounts were deleted because there were too many copy right infringement violations. Fritz's account is one of the worst. He was given no time to try and sort it out. So most/all? of his threads are ruined.

What is the future of the forum? That is to be determined. If it is to survive I hope that those who know DMT and Moose and Walleye personally will reach out to them and try to coax them back.

My own personal feeling is that those who hated the politics won't show up and revive the forum, but who knows.. maybe I am wrong. I don't mind being wrong, but I do believe that it will take some strong personalities to bring this place back to life. Someone like Ouch, to bring humor to the situation would help. Or a Jeff Lowe, or a Bachar. Dingus could be a cheer leader, encouraging people to just post their fotos to the forum, but its to be determined whether he will come back.

Just my thoughts.

Edit: I believe them when they say it loses money.
A Essex

climber
Apr 22, 2019 - 12:20pm PT
hopefully REI will buy!

all will become one with the Borg
Don Paul

Social climber
Washington DC
Apr 22, 2019 - 01:45pm PT
WELL POSITIONED. Now is the time to invest before someone else gets rich off it. I suspect it's either Warren Buffet or the Koch Bros. is behind this.

Seriously, though now is the time to look for another website to host all this questionable material. That will take time and the people who have put in so much work should be the most motivated to do it. In the meantime this is a valuable community of people and I hope it stays together.
RJ Spurrier

SuperTopo staff member
Apr 22, 2019 - 02:47pm PT
Gunkie:
Is SuperTopo getting positioned for sale?

No.

FRUMY:
If it does not have positive cash flow it would have gone away long ago.

The Forum has never made a profit in its 18 year history. It has been subsidized and provided support as a service to the climbing community by Chris and SuperTopo LLC.
ruppell

climber
Apr 22, 2019 - 02:58pm PT
The Forum has never made a profit in its 18 year history. It has been subsidized and provided support as a service to the climbing community by Chris and SuperTopo LLC.

I'm finding that very hard to believe. Is OutdoorGearLab.com part of ST LLC? If the founders of this site haven't found a way to turn a profit the servers would have turned off a long time ago. Unless Chris and you are so committed to preserving the historical record that you put that money out of pocket. Which I doubt because you have stated that this in not the place for historical content.

So, which one is it?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 22, 2019 - 02:59pm PT
RJ,I will ask again,you say you do not make money on this site.

Do you need money for all of this?
RJ Spurrier

SuperTopo staff member
Apr 22, 2019 - 03:36pm PT
wilbeer:
Do you need money for all of this?

Yes, it costs money to operate the SuperTopo Forun. If the site's operating costs weren't subsidized by SuperTopo LLC, it would be shut down.

ruppell:
Is OutdoorGearLab.com part of ST LLC?


No. OutdoorGearLab is a completely separate business with different ownership.

If the founders of this site haven't found a way to turn a profit the servers would have turned off a long time ago.

You make a good case to shut down the SuperTopo Forum. Certainly, the economic case is undeniable.

Chris has been trying to figure out how to keep it going.

Perhaps he shouldn't.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 22, 2019 - 03:57pm PT
What if we have fund drives for the forum?Like local npr radio. That can be done.

I knew it was not free,bandwidth =money.

It would not be hard to do at all,add an item”ST forum contribution” to STLLC’s guidebook catalog,post a reminder thread quarterly and accept money.

Reeotch

climber
4 Corners Area
Apr 22, 2019 - 04:13pm PT
Thanks RJ, for setting us straight on a few things. Wow. Just crazy. So much information and stories and TRs. It would be a shame, but could it really last forever???
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 22, 2019 - 04:17pm PT
Yeah,there you have it.
RJ Spurrier

SuperTopo staff member
Apr 22, 2019 - 04:52pm PT
Wilbeer:
What if we have fund drives for the forum?Like local npr radio. That can be done.

I think that is why Chris has been contemplating splitting the SuperTopo Forum and user-contributed portions of this site (trip reports, route beta, etc) into a non-profit. Since the forum actually isn't profitable today, and never has been, an official 501c3 non-profit status it seems a natural move.

I believe Chris is interested in becoming a significant continuing sponsor to help support the site, but it would be great if donations from members also helped cover the costs. That could also potentially fund new development, expanded types of user-contributed content, and modernization of the site.
David Knopp

Trad climber
CA
Apr 22, 2019 - 05:08pm PT
RJ could you also add total freedom to publish whatever on the site? For example if i'm donating x dollars to play here i'd like to be able to post/read politard content. Does that make any sense?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Apr 22, 2019 - 05:11pm PT
Let's not forget the energy and effort that Chris already puts into the American Safe(r) Climbing Association, not to mention a number of community things where he lives. Walking the walk...
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 22, 2019 - 05:24pm PT
Let’s get er rolling ,then.
Don Paul

Social climber
Washington DC
Apr 22, 2019 - 05:29pm PT
^ RJ the key to 501(c)(3) status is public support. You have to be able to prove that the organization is funded by "the public." I'm not sure the minimum number of people to qualify as "the public" but if its just Chris and a few other people, it won't work. The easiest way to show public support is to be supported by another 501(c)(3). That money is already laundered for you. (so to speak lol) So, to get it off the ground you could get a grant from a 501(c)(3). Otherwise, if the membership of this site, for example, all kicked in $5 each - I would have to check how many people constitutes "the public" - then your expenses could be three times that.

You have to have 34% public support. Then the other 66% of your budget can come from a single source. I guess it's like matching funds. Either yourself, or some gear or clothing company. Or podcasters like Chris Kalous or Fitz Cahall have such large and wealthy audiences, all they have to do is ask and $50,000 can appear overnight. This happened for the Stoned Nudes and a Bears Ears Visitor Center, etc.

One other thing you need to know, is that if you form a 501(c)(3) you will not be in control of it. It has to have a board of directors. It is very common for successful nonprofits to kick out the founder of the organization, maybe because the person doesn't accept they are no longer in control, or maybe because he put the wrong people on the board. There is a concept called a "founding director" that I researched once, that may be a way to prevent that, but it's a common occurrence.

Another thing is that if the forum loses money, you can write that off against the income of your LLC. You will lose the write off, but I guess that's better than paying all of it. Overall I think its a good plan - but the plan should have some kind of legal basis (creative commons? I dont know about that) and not just publish hundreds of copyrighted magazine articles.

And now that you have raised all this money, everyone gets jobs reformating the climbing history, more than 15 years of disorganized stories intermingled with personal disputes, etc., edited out. Maybe some of the people who had massive, illegal collections on supertopo would want to do that. Well, when there is change there is opportunity. I would start with thinking what kind of editing would be needed to publish their collections legally.
ruppell

climber
Apr 22, 2019 - 05:29pm PT
You make a good case to shut down the SuperTopo Forum. Certainly, the economic case is undeniable.

Chris has been trying to figure out how to keep it going.

Perhaps he shouldn't.

Time and money.

If you want to take my words out of context and have everyone reading this presume ST is a total loss and solely supported by one man's quest to figure out a way to make it work, after years, go ahead.

Shut down the forum. Your responses to almost all questions have been dull at best and most have been utter BS.

Pretend it's a campfire. Pretend that it's a place to have climbing lore stored. Pretend it's me talking to you. Drop the attitude about "never has ST endorsed copy right infringement". Tell the story man. Lots of woods getting burned.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 22, 2019 - 05:32pm PT
This ain’t FREE.
grover

climber
Castlegar BC
Apr 22, 2019 - 05:32pm PT
Well said Anders.

As well, Chris and the Taco owe us nothing. Sad to see so many people bent out of shape over a simple rule (that is not new). Meh

Post less-Climb more
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 22, 2019 - 05:36pm PT
A 501c is not necessary,as long as it is member funded.

ruppell

climber
Apr 22, 2019 - 05:45pm PT
As well, Chris and the Taco owe us nothing. Sad to see so many people bent out of shape over a simple rule (that is not new). Meh

Post less-Climb more

Or you could look at it the other way. The membership owes nothing, it is free after all, and the ownership owes something to the members.

That something would be easy to figure out if that old rule had always been enforced. It hasn't.

The new rules are the old rules. I get it. The problem is that the old rules where never enforced. Suddenly, rules get enforced with such authority that it changes the nature of the site. I feel I can clearly speak to the nature of that change because in years of "membership" I've never had a single gripe with how the site was run. Now, I have many.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 22, 2019 - 05:59pm PT
but it would be great if donations from members also helped cover the costs.

I'm finding myself confused by this post. I've repeatedly stated that I would donate and even support a membership-subscription model, but in response to such suggestions what I read was along the lines of: Chris et al would support an alternate "historical archive" but aren't interested in the overhead of managing this forum in anything like its current form.

Then I read things from RJ like, "Maybe it should be," in response to "just shut it down."

In short, I would donate to THIS forum/site IF I had any confidence that IT would be maintained. But the management seems SO ambivalent and inconsistent over the past few days that I literally have no idea what they are thinking.

If the management would provide some CLEAR leadership/direction regarding this forum, other than "quit making political threads and posting copyrighted content," then I believe that MANY of us could get behind said direction and even financially support it! But the last few days have only increased my confusion.

And, believe me (as I think that my own posts on multiple threads over the past few days clearly demonstrate), I'm not bringing an "attitude problem" to this discussion! I am genuinely and in good faith trying to understand, comply, and contribute positively to SuperTopo and the community it has fostered.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Apr 22, 2019 - 06:16pm PT
I've been active in one way or another on this site since 2003 or so.

With the history and spirit of the site being quickly strangled, I'll probably be fading away.

The virtual campfire was what made this place, with all the various personalities.

I guess as goes California, so goes the Taco.
RJ Spurrier

SuperTopo staff member
Apr 22, 2019 - 06:18pm PT
madbolter1:
I would donate to THIS forum/site IF I had any confidence that IT would be maintained.

Your concern is quite reasonable and appropriate.

At this time, the SuperTopo Forum is not a separate non-profit with a defined mission. It is simply a money-losing website supported by subsidies from Chris and SuperTopo LLC.

Your concerns about what the non-profit SuperTopo might be, what its mission is, and whether that mission is worthy of your support are perfectly reasonable.

Yet, I think those questions are best deferred for now.

Today, there is no non-profit SuperTopo so the questions are literally moot.

If there was one in the future, it would need a clear mission. It would also make sense to develop a clear policy on whether multi-page scans of copyrighted print article content that lack permission to use are cool on the non-profit site (don't count on it, since the non-profit Wikipedia clearly won't allow it). It would also seem courteous to make a policy on whether only climbing-related political topics are OK, or whether any and all political topics are welcome here.

You will be wise to wait to decide on whether a non-profit SuperTopo is a worthwhile cause until these questions are decided.

Today, no one is asking for your donation. The only financial support today for this forum is Chris and SuperTopo LLC, offset partially by google ad revenues.

rj
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 22, 2019 - 06:23pm PT
It could be privatized and funded by members.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 22, 2019 - 06:31pm PT
I think those questions are best deferred for now.

I appreciate your response, RJ. And what I quote from you here does sum it up for me. I'm satisfied for now.

Please count me in should you guys decide to move forward with a donation model to keep this thing alive.

MUCH appreciated!
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 22, 2019 - 06:34pm PT
I second.
johntp

Trad climber
Punter, Little Rock
Apr 22, 2019 - 06:36pm PT
It could be privatized and funded by members.

Yup. I participate on a backpacking forum that is member funded. It really doesn't cost that much. The backpacking forum has NO outside advertising content/links.

I'm a bit surprised that all the links to advertisements can't fund the forum. Doesn't the forum get remuneration from the advertisers?

What are the taco's expenses? By category: servers, moderation, utilities, etc.

What is the income from advertisers/links?

What does it cost annually to run this place?
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Apr 22, 2019 - 10:35pm PT
I'll donate if you make my (personally owned) embedded images visible and not a link. :)
Gunkie

Trad climber
Valles Marineris
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2019 - 05:47am PT
Pleas
e count me in should you guys decide to move forward with a donation model to keep this thing alive.

Count me in.
Ezra Ellis

Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
Apr 23, 2019 - 06:06am PT
RJ
Should you and CMAC see if REI wants to purchase this site?
Or maybe that would be sacrilege?
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 23, 2019 - 07:12am PT
Informative thread.

Thanks RJ.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Apr 23, 2019 - 07:26am PT
501c3 educational nonprofit status is the way forward in this situation for several reasons and would allow some legal fair use protection against the kind of threats that have led us to this point. It would also allow the historical content of this forum to be more easily preserved long term.
I am glad that this option is being given serious consideration to keep the ST from riding off in a Big Yellow Taxi.
Have some patience people.
zBrown

Ice climber
Apr 23, 2019 - 06:56pm PT
Antbody care to offer up real numbers of what it costs to run a site such as Supertopo or similar on an annual basis?

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 23, 2019 - 07:04pm PT
"Should you and CMAC see if REI wants to purchase this site?"

FOR GOD'S SAKE, NO.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 23, 2019 - 08:22pm PT
It would seem fair to say, by way of analogy, that the forum has been having digestion issues over the last few years.
Many of us thought it might be headed for a crash on that account alone.

Now it has major heartburn, which would seem to have come out of the blue, and though we users are feeling it because our free toy is broken, clearly the brunt of it is being felt by RJ and CMAC, who are having to deal with the cause of the current malaise (legal threats), as opposed to us users who are suffering only the functional changes brought on by the threats.

Someone mentioned that with change comes opportunity. Let's hope so. As to the changes thus far: many of us will adjust, I'm sure.

Just watching you work through all of these Q&A over the last few days, RJ, I have to imagine it's getting exhausting?

These couple of threads have been quite instructive and informative for us readers, I can assure you. And frankly, the tenor of it has remained very civil and even positive. It seems there is opportunity for bonding here, if nothing else. And it should be instructive to you and CMAC just how much we all value what you've built.

That said, I gotta wonder about the stamina of you and CMAC. It seems you guys could just toss in the towel at any time now. Can't say I would blame either of you if that's what happens.

Hoping for a better outcome. It will certainly be interesting to see if the move to a nonprofit or some new structural format creates something better for all in the long-term.

-Roy
zBrown

Ice climber
Apr 24, 2019 - 01:53am PT
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Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Apr 24, 2019 - 11:20am PT
You make a good case to shut down the SuperTopo Forum. Certainly, the economic case is undeniable.

Chris has been trying to figure out how to keep it going.

Perhaps he shouldn't.

Yes, perhaps. The point has been made that Chris owes forum users nothing, and while that's most certainly true, an internet forum is conversely worth nothing without its contributing members. It's one thing to ban pornography, libel, and other sorts of unacceptable content--and something different altogether to demand that users not talk about things (like politics) that may be of interest to them.

Curt
zBrown

Ice climber
Apr 24, 2019 - 11:57am PT
How about one of the really "old-timers" (Chris and RJ are pre-occupied) give us all a little history lesson about the birth of the ST?

Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Apr 25, 2019 - 09:39am PT
RJ Spurier & CMac

I very much appreciate this site and this Forum. I know, being a businessman, how much this costs.

Thus to contribute I have done the following:

1. Buy as many Supertopo books as I could ever need.

2. When I buy things on line I do my shopping until the search AI's know what I'm looking for. Then I go to Supertopo Forum and wait for ads to appear (not long) then I click through and buy on those ads.

3. I use Outdoor Gear Lab for my buying decisions and have spent thousands this same way via Outdoor Gear Lab.


I really appreciate what has been done for the community. I know you write checks every month to support this.

Sloughing off a mass of content that is causing legal liability as well as gobbling up costly server space is quite sensible. I do miss some of the great reference material and entertainment it provided.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Apr 25, 2019 - 11:02am PT
What exactly are the expenses you're talking about?
There is basically zero out of pocket expense for adding a php forum to a website. There is maintenance required which does require time and unless things have changed since I did it, dealing with spam, patches and updates can be time consuming and frustrating but that's about it.
OTOH I never had to pay for a lawyer.

At the same time the CTR on adsense on forums is remarkably low so the revenue probably pays for very little.

Right now it seems the biggest expense the forum is facing is paying someone to remove valuable content.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Apr 25, 2019 - 11:03am PT
Sloughing off a mass of content this is causing legal liability as well as gobbling up costly server space is quite sensible. I do miss some of the great reference material and entertainment it provided.
Costly server space is NOT a thing.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Apr 25, 2019 - 01:55pm PT
Doesn't seem logical to separate this forum as an expense different from advertising for Supertopo books, especially seeing as it's the same website.

I get wanting to climb instead of dik around with maintaining the forum - but casting this whole thing as a generous gift given at a loss seems a bit much given what he's taken away from the same community to add content to his books and fund his lifestyle for quite a few years.
Hoser

climber
Vancouver,Rome
Apr 25, 2019 - 09:42pm PT
With the photos as they are the place is useless really. If you have seen this go down on other sites then I think you are pretty aware that this is just the beginning.

Life goes on in the end.

If after all these years they couldnt make a business case for this site then yea thats pretty sad in general and I cant imagine they could all of a sudden figure it out now.

Glad I ALWAYS used the img tags, my photos are safe and sound.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Apr 26, 2019 - 09:19am PT
Costly server space is NOT a thing.

Actually it is. It's like rent on self-storage.


Not expensive compared to food, rent, and cable TV but adds up over the year and you ask yourself, "for what?"
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Apr 26, 2019 - 10:41am PT
Not expensive compared to food, rent, and cable TV but adds up over the year and you ask yourself, "for what?"
To help sell books and gear in addition to the ads. To get email addresses. To have a zillion extra search terms that can rank on Google and bring in traffic. To have the site rank higher on alexa.
Tp provide a home for these
http://www.supertopo.com/inc/view_tripreports.php?dcid=PzE4Pzw1Ow,,
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