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Messages 1 - 38 of total 38 in this topic

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 21, 2019 - 10:20pm PT

The recent discussions about the appropriate content for this, and other, sites got me to thinking about a longstanding dispute involving retrobolting.

I have opposed the idea of most retrobolting on exiting free routes (other than replacement of bad bolts), because, to me, it changes the nature of the lead. Defenders of retrobolting often argue that if I don't like the retrobolts, I don't need to use them. My retort remains that the very existence of those bolts makes it impossible for me to ignore them, and adds a significant psychological impediment to those leads.

In contrast, my attitude on most internet forums, including ST, has been that I can ignore threads and posts I don't care for, so why bother trying to get rid of them. Now I'm wondering if I'm being inconsistent, or whether there's a difference.

Thoughts?

John

BruceHildenbrand

Social climber

Mountain View/Boulder

Apr 22, 2019 - 12:35am PT

John,

the problem with all the political threads is that that is where the overwhelming amount of bad behavior existed. That means that a lot of time and resources had to be spent moderating those threads. My guess is that Chris and RJ didn't want to allocate their sparse resources in that area.

zBrown

Ice climber

Apr 22, 2019 - 12:41am PT

So as not to violate the "Terms" I'm just going to say six of one, half dozen of the other.

McGinnis

climber

Apr 22, 2019 - 01:43am PT

Apples and oranges.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Apr 22, 2019 - 06:25am PT

It’s a grey area and there is no pat answer. When a very skilled climber does a moderate lead many levels below his/her pay grade and places scant protection bolts should lesser climbers be denied?

Edit...
I do believe there is merit in leads that were scantily bolted by climbers performing near their limits.
I have never felt that the fa party “owns” the route regarding either the number of bolts placed or the rating assigned.
Hopelessly grey I say.

Todd Eastman

Social climber

Putney, VT

Apr 22, 2019 - 06:33am PT

Grey areas and differences in opinion make life interesting...

... constant agreement and group think is boring...

... rant on!!!

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Apr 22, 2019 - 06:42am PT

Donini nails it. If i put up a 5.7 in an area with limited climbing resources and deliberately make it extra dangerous simply to highlight how bad assed I am in my own mind I have denied all the less experienced and perhaps ageing climbers the opertunity to enjoy that route. In short I was a total dick. On the otherhand if i over bolted it I would have deprived that same user group the opertunity to think and push themselves passed what they thought they were capable of. The perfect route is safe where it needs to be yet exciting where exposure and clean fall potential allow. In short most people developing 5.10 and under should have their drills confiscated and let me fix their routes.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Apr 22, 2019 - 06:43am PT

This is the type of poltical conversation that resonates with ST. There is even some expertise here regarding this issue unlike the other political threads.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Apr 22, 2019 - 06:55am PT

A new Gu 3 pitch 5.9+ went in near us last year. Very experienced team. P1 and P3 are brilliant. P2 (different leader than 1 and 3) is an ankle breaker. Completely unnecessary and admittedly ego driven. "I'm a Tiger " The climb is 35 min from our place yet we will never do it again. Complete waste and travesty..

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2019 - 07:19am PT

Thank you tradman. Your last post helps distill the difference between the two situations for me. In your example, I can't do pitch 3 without someone leading "ankle-breaking" pitch 2. On an internet forum, I can get to the posts I want to read without having to read all the rants in between.

It's interesting that you used the "ankle-breaking" term, because the penultimate pitch on Coonyard Pinnacle (known in my day as "The Ankle Breaker") was the site of an early retrobolting event. The original lead had about 40 feet of unprotected 5.9 friction off a ledge. That section had a bolt added in the early 1960's, and almost immediately chopped because it changed the reputation of the pitch and climb. The argument that you could ignore the bolt didn't even seem to be considered.

John

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Apr 22, 2019 - 07:46am PT

You can't ignore bolts. You can ignore posts. You can't ignore moderators chopping posts and censoring content.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Apr 22, 2019 - 07:52am PT

Very interesting in that the often cited as being the ultimate purest Royal Robins did a fair bit of retro bolting on 2nd ascents. The dirt on that is layed bare in Joe Fitches book Going up.

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Apr 22, 2019 - 08:19am PT

Retrobolts don’t disappear if their server goes down.

d-know

Trad climber

electric lady land

Apr 22, 2019 - 08:41am PT

This is ethics not politics.

Unless an agency gets involved
like the forest service or
Access fund or some such.

BruceHildenbrand

Social climber

Mountain View/Boulder

Apr 22, 2019 - 08:42am PT

Tradmanclimbs wrote:

"The perfect route is safe where it needs to be yet exciting where exposure and clean fall potential allow."

That's a perfect description of Higgins' routes in the Meadows.

Ksolem

Trad climber

Monrovia, California

Apr 22, 2019 - 12:01pm PT

When it's possible I'd just ask whoever did the FA.

"You know, that second pitch kinda spoils your route for most people..."

If they're not available to ask, poll the community. For example, retrobolting runout routes like You Asked For It (TM) would probably not meet with the approval of most climbers. But adding a bolt to the big runout at the top of Gorge and Purge (ORG) would probably go over well.

I've added a bolt to two of my routes at the behest of friends and other climbers. I wasn't setting out to make dangerous climbs, but I was respecting the tradition of ground up FA's in the areas. In one case was going up without any preview, and I just couldn't stop and drill. The other goes up a standard rap route, so I'd seen it plenty of times but the same sh+t happened anyway. I had no problem with the business of going back, rapping down and adding the bolt. No one would do the routes otherwise.

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Apr 22, 2019 - 12:05pm PT

If you can’t do the time don’t do the crime.

How is a bolt any different than a mine or a clear cut? At least the clear cut will grow back.
It’s all environmental exploitation, if somewhat differentiated by scale.

August West

Trad climber

Where the wind blows strange

Apr 22, 2019 - 12:31pm PT

Retrobolts don’t disappear if their server goes down.

True, but it is easier to keep the noobie trash off routes by cutting retrobolts than it is to keep the dicks off the internet.

Trump

climber

Apr 22, 2019 - 12:33pm PT

Sure I’ve got some thoughts about that. Thanks for asking.

I like the idea of external factors creating internal psychological effects for us. The problem IMO is that we psychologically evaluate those factors and those effects in our own favor - to confirm our own beliefs or our own righteousness etc.

It’s impossible for me to ignore the things I prefer not to ignore, but it is possible for me to ignore the things I prefer to ignore. Ok, if we say so. I guess we’re doing it right on both sides of the equation.

If you try to remain aware of your own unconscious psychological preference to interpret things in your own favor, maybe you can overcome that. In other words, you can’t! Still, I admire that you try.

Don’t feel bad about yourself for that - if pigs had wings they could fly. But they don’t.

People like to say a lot of words about it, anyway. And here we are. If you ask like minded people or socially or tribally affiliated people whether they agree with you, and they do, you might need to wonder about the social/societal reasons they do, in the same way that you might need to wonder about the psychological reasons you do. All that fuss about climate science might not really be about climate science.

We’ve got a lot of expertise confirming the validity of a climber perspective here, for what that’s worth. We prolly like to think it’s worth a lot. Everyone likes to think that about themselves. And we’re someones too.

ruppell

climber

Apr 22, 2019 - 02:29pm PT

It’s a grey area and there is no pat answer. When a very skilled climber does a moderate lead many levels below his/her pay grade and places scant protection bolts should lesser climbers be denied?

There's something that's left out in this over simplified example.

In this case we could debate for hours over a good campfire on a cold night who actually owns the rock. Does the FA have rights or should it be opened up for the masses. There's actually more than a few threads on the site that pose that exact question. All of them are worth the read.

The thing that's left out is simple. We cannot debate who owns this site. We either play by the new rules or GTFO. Some will leave by choice. Some will leave by the ax.

I don't post often here. I never felt the need to get into heated debates about retrobolting, politics, ethics, how to rack, or the value of a multi-meter. I haven't ever found a need to debate my climbing style or my personal ethics. I simply didn't care enough to be involved with reading walls of text from some members. I still don't.

What I do care about is my style. My ethics. My choices. All of those have been gained from historical perspectives that I have uses this site as a resource to gather. It's a shame to see that resource castrated.

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Apr 22, 2019 - 03:18pm PT

The OP is a false equivalency (‘apples and oranges’). They can only be related in a most distant sense.

Trad climber

Calgary

Apr 22, 2019 - 03:23pm PT

Kahl Wall is a popular 1000 foot 10a on Yamnuska. It was first done in 1971 with a few points of aid from bolts.
It was freed in late 70's/early 80's.
The bad old bolts were replaced later with better bolts. Nothing added or moved.
Some new sport type climbers then complained to the boltee that he should have put the bolts in more convenient places!
I guess you can't win

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Apr 22, 2019 - 03:43pm PT

as I said earlier some people simply should not be allowed to drill. An aid climb that turns into a free climb is a prime example of bolts likely placed in the wrong places for good free climbing. I re bolted an old aid climb on Mt horrid. I modified the 3 bolt ladder into a 2 bolt free climbing sequence. Its not a great idea to get hung up on the original exact spot the bolt used to be if the person who placed it was a hack. For example the Beckey rt on east Gruesome had aid bolts on 5.6.... The 3 pitch 5.9 up the street from Isa's House The leader of P1 and 3 is stoked to add a bolt to pitch 2. the Tiger might allow it but won't rush out there and get it done and probably won't be at all pleased if I ask...

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2019 - 04:04pm PT

Just for the record, I didn't intend to start a retrobolting debate. We've had plenty of those. It's just that the issue of internet forum content got the effect of bolt placing and chopping back into my thoughts.

Tradman, I thought of a couple of Robbins retrobolts myself -- one on Boot Flake (that the third ascent gleefully chopped) and one on the Muir Wall. I should add that when I climbed In Cold Blood in 1973-- a bit less than three years after Robbins' solo FA -- there were at least six bolts added to the route already. Karma?

Anyway, I, too, thought of many of Tom Higgins' routes in the Meadows as examples of climbs where the original bolts were in perfect keeping with the overall nature of the route.

And Apogee, I'm glad you think it's a false equivalence. That way, my opposing positions aren't inconsistent. :)

John

d-know

Trad climber

electric lady land

Apr 22, 2019 - 04:22pm PT

Like I said. Ethics.

Nobody owns the rock,
the rock owns you.

How does one treat it
and oneself likewise or another?

tolman_paul

Trad climber

Anchorage, AK

Apr 22, 2019 - 04:33pm PT

If we really respected the rock, we wouldn't place any bolts.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Apr 22, 2019 - 04:40pm PT

now here come the religious wing nuts....

Ksolem

Trad climber

Monrovia, California

Apr 22, 2019 - 04:45pm PT

When it comes to bolting and retro-bolting, sport climbing and traditional climbing are pretty close to polar opposites. For example, let's say we're down in the Owens Gorge for a day of pulling down. How often do we care who put up the route. I couldn't tell you for the life of me who put up Gorgeous, or most of the routes down there. A notable exception is Bachar's Pick Pocket. So except for a route like that, which has the personal stylistic stamp of JB on it, I don't see where FA party's have much claim on the rock.

I view traditional climbing through a different lens. For one thing it can really matter who did the FA. If you're in The Needles, and your planning to climb No More Mr. Nice Guy, it's good to know in advance that it's a Gilge/Lechlinsky rig, and know what that means.

In traditional climbs one has to accept that not every route is for everybody, and that climbers doing FA's are often making a statement. In most cases I think that statement should be respected. There are plenty of other climbs out there to do without bringing down a bold route.

In sport climbing every route should be relatively safe. The "every route is not for everybody" is about how well you climb, not so much about how skilled with protection or how bold you are.

d-know

Trad climber

electric lady land

Apr 22, 2019 - 04:53pm PT

Well said Ksolem.

Much more articulate
than my attempt.
Thanks.

WBraun

climber

Apr 22, 2019 - 04:55pm PT

Its not a great idea to get hung up on the original exact spot the bolt used to be

Exactly.

Sometimes the bolt is accidentally placed in the wrong place.

Then the next guy who replaces old bolts puts it in the same st00pid place.

No brain .....

ruppell

climber

Apr 22, 2019 - 05:10pm PT

If we really respected the rock, we wouldn't place any bolts.

Which I never have. I've also never reported any of my FA's. The reason for me is very simple. I'd like the guys behind me to have close to the exact feeling of discovery as I had when I went for it. I'd think that adventure won't be lost by the demise of ST or the readily available route beta on ST or newer guide books(looking at you ksolem).

Climbing is what it is. It is what you make it. For me, it's always been about pushing my own limits, my own strength, my own path. Not once in making it my own have I ever placed a bolt. I've never shunned those who decide to either. To each their own.

And that is what has, historically, made climbing so special.

mooch

Trad climber

Tribal Base Camp (Riverkern Annex)

Apr 23, 2019 - 03:21pm PT

In traditional climbs one has to accept that not every route is for everybody, and that climbers doing FA's are often making a statement. In most cases I think that statement should be respected. There are plenty of other climbs out there to do without bringing down a bold route

Well said, Kris. Been expressing that view to some guys who want to retro bolt a route on Moro Rock. Not that it's a 5-star trad climb but its bold for folks these days. They were vocal about it on the route page, even when asked to respect the FA (of course, who knows who did it.....thinking Mark Swain in the early 90's). The existing bolts do need to be replaced (SMC hangers) and 5/16 button heads. The way I see it, if you made the effort to create a route and personally invest the time and resources, its your 'piece of art' to own. Unless permission is given, leave the FAist route in its original style. As you said Kris, there plenty of virgin stone for folks to craft their own works of art.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Apr 23, 2019 - 04:10pm PT

Retro bolting doesn’t really concern me that much. I was never drawn to the Apron or the Meadows during my Valley days. I much more enjoyed steeper trad routes that were conventionally protected...to each his own.

Bolting practices became more important to me when I saw fa’s put up in Patagonia where bolts were being placed when other gear would have worked just fine. Here the question wasn’t “should bolts be added”, the question became, “should bolts be removed.”

The “Compressor Route” was the most famous example but there are many more routes where this occurred. I guess the reason bolting has always drawn controversy is the fact that something permanent and alien is being added to the natural world of rock. Rock formations are often beautiful and not even proponents of bolting would argue that bolting doesn’t detract from that beauty.

There is also, in most climbers, the desire to climb in the most natural way possible with the most minimum impact on the climb. I have not brought bolts with me on an alpine fa since I climbed Torre Egger in 1976 and there we only placed four hand drilled bolts. It's funny how necessity can lead to creativity. We were able to engineer 85 rappels getting down Latok 1 with no bolts.

Many of the world’s iconic climbs (I am leaving sport climbing out of this discussion) would not exist without bolts but I think that there will always be a degree of ambivalence about using them.

tolman_paul

Trad climber

Anchorage, AK

Apr 23, 2019 - 04:47pm PT

Never said I don't or haven't placed bolts. I've never had an issue placing bolts on routes I've put up, or replacing rusted out bolts on routes put up by others. But when one wants to take their environmental ethos to the limit, it's the natural conclusion.

It seems for many who claim to care deeply about the environment, a little probing would lead to the conclusion that those deep convictions are only to the point of when it is convenient to their life style.

I especially find the hatred of hydrocarbons humorous. The vast majority of climbing gear and clothing is made from processed hydrocarbons. Add in the aluminum that takes massive quantities of energy to smelt. Ban oil, sure sounds good so long as one isn't willing to consider the real affect of doing so.

BruceHildenbrand

Social climber

Mountain View/Boulder

Apr 23, 2019 - 08:37pm PT

In 1976 my partner and I were climbing in the Meadows and there was no official guidebook. We just went up and climbed what we thought might be routes we knew about from some article in Ascent such as Crescent Arch and the Dike Route.

It turns out in all our wandering around Stately Pleasure Dome(I always liked the name Polly Dome better) that May in 1976 we established a number of bold(read no bolts) face climbs. We were just having fun and had our face climbing psyche totally dialed mainly because my partner was fearless! John Bachar would later solo and claim the FAs which was fine with us because we never reported the routes to anyone and we weren't doing these routes as some ego thing. We just loved running it out and out and out and back then there was a lot of blankness on Polly Dome.

That's an interesting twist to this whole discussion. We didn't put in any bolts and neither did John. What sort of precedence does that set for future parties?

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Apr 23, 2019 - 08:54pm PT

Equivocating road building with retro bolting is an even more ridiculous false equivalence.

Degaine

climber

Apr 24, 2019 - 01:52am PT

Donini wrote:

We were able to engineer 85 rappels getting down Latok 1 with no bolts.

Perhaps the subject of another thread, but could describe in more detail some of the creative anchors you built? Some of the snow anchors (bollards and such) that actually worked?

If you have the time and inclination of course.

Thanks and cheers!