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Chris McNamara
SuperTopo staff member
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 14, 2019 - 04:38pm PT
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HI Forum,
I'd like to take a moment to clarify that SuperTopo does not condone copyright infringement and we never have.
Please do not, ever, upload an image onto SuperTopo unless you own the rights to that image.
Our Terms of Service has long made it clear that you are only to upload images that you own the rights to. In addition, our Terms of Service make it clear that you alone are responsible and liable, should you upload an image that infringes on another person's copyrights. We do not condone, nor will we accept financial liability, for any member who uploads images or content to SuperTopo that infringes on the copyrights of others.
In addition, on every screen to upload images, we ask members to confirm, "I own the rights to this image and confirm that it meets SuperTopo.com's standards. By clicking the button to Select Photo, I acknowledge that I have read and accept the Terms of Service."
We ask you to review any photos you have uploaded to SuperTopo, and immediately delete any photos you may have uploaded if you are not 100% sure you own the rights to the image.
Should we discover copyright infringing photos on your account, all your photos will be deleted and wiped from the server as a protective measure, and your account may be de-activated.
Please understand that copyright infringement is a violation of Federal law.
We will cooperate with any investigation into copyright infringement.
This is a serious matter.
We ask you to take a moment now to assure you have no images uploaded on SuperTopo, except for those you own the rights to.
Sincerely,
Chris McNamara
Founder
SuperTopo
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Apr 14, 2019 - 04:51pm PT
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We ask you to review any photos you have uploaded to SuperTopo, and immediately delete any photos you may have uploaded if you are not 100% sure you own the rights to the image.
Should we discover copyright infringing photos on your account, all your photos will be deleted and wiped from the server as a protective measure, and your account may be de-activated.
Interesting. Has the taco been put on notice for copyright infringement?
Does this include scanned images of climbing articles?
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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Apr 14, 2019 - 05:00pm PT
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Does this have anything to do with....at least on my device, it states now this is NOT a secure site? Or has this something to do with my lack of tech savy? Inquiring minds want to know.
Peace
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TLP
climber
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Apr 14, 2019 - 05:14pm PT
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To my knowledge, posting things that are public domain, or in the large and expanding realm of creative commons, is definitely not copyright infringement, especially if (as is normally required) the original source is credited. Chris, it would be good to clarify whether Supertopo has heartburn about reposting things that are in the public domain or creative commons, appropriately credited as to source. No one "owns" such content, that's the whole point.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Apr 14, 2019 - 05:15pm PT
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Somebody filed a complaint, is my guess. Maybe they tried to reach to offending poster but couldn't or the person didn't comply. Perhaps a lawyer contacted them over an infringing image. Lawyer involved = time and money. But it sounds like CMac is pretty serious on the matter.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Apr 14, 2019 - 05:37pm PT
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it states now this is NOT a secure site?
Ron, this has been the case for a long time. OT, a good reason to be careful about what one posts here. Any site that doesn't have "https" in the header is not secure.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 14, 2019 - 05:39pm PT
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As a professional photographer. Thank You Chris!.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Apr 14, 2019 - 05:48pm PT
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I have no clue about copyright law. Do copyrights expire ala Patents?
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 14, 2019 - 05:57pm PT
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If you don't own the photo just hot link it from where the original is located.
[img]
[/img]
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Apr 14, 2019 - 05:59pm PT
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I have no clue about copyright law. Do copyrights expire ala Patents?
Sure they do. Expiration depends on when it was copyrighted and by whom (and in what country)
For the USA, use :
Works before 1978 operate by different rules, usually shorter.
Basically anything published for hire before 1923 is out of copyright.
Works not for hire is life of the author + 70 years. For works after 1978.
Don’t forget about fair use and educational-not-for-profit exemptions.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Apr 14, 2019 - 06:01pm PT
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What i don't get is if it is posted on the world wide web,
and found on a google images search,
Having come from a shared source Re-shared a million times
by grandmothers and junior high school students
not used to any gain beyond "entertainment"
not monetized or sold,
not used to make a profit off
 - that should be "Fair Use" of an image.
I have some pictures that I found that way
& it seems I need to remove them from the site
Is that what I need to do ?
I mean half of the pictures that are posted
and three-quarters of the ones on the politics threads
are taken from other publications
I sense this crescendo is more than just a down beat
It sounds like a beat down is coming again
For some
who regularly remove all the pictures that they upload as they go along
(Ekat, I-B-gob)
or others with small quantities of pictures in their folio
(for example, skywalk less than 50)
it is not a big deal.
I have 5,867 pictures that will take more hours than I can safely focus on a screen for~ to go through.
As it has been recommended that you only spend 120 minutes at a stretch
in front of a computer screen if the result of climbing caused you to have limits that you would otherwise not share
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Apr 14, 2019 - 06:04pm PT
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hey there say, chris... oh my... say, i have shared a few pics that show up on general searches, that i thought were up for general use...
just to be safe, then, i better go delete everything that i did not make...
scary stuff...
very sorry if i misunderstood, what is seen in searches on yahoo images...
:O
thought the 'i own rights' was for photographs...
i will see how to do all this, and take things off...
*i took off all the search-items, that share info, to help others...
i only left my photos, and art...
however, now-- i have left some of the 'free use' icons, that came from my computer program, as to using for artwork, etc, and cards, etc...
though, i was not sure whether to leave the food-photos, they, too, were free use, from my computer... but-- i got worried, so took those off...
hope all is well, here, now,
as, i do not want to do anything wrong...
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Apr 14, 2019 - 06:31pm PT
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if you didn't make the photograph don't post it, doesn't belong to you no matter what the Law says, it's really simple, it's called common courtesy and being honest.ive had people on this forum scan photographs from my books and post them here, class acts, I don't care whether you give proper credit or not if you don't own it look at it don't steal it. . .df
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Apr 14, 2019 - 06:32pm PT
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How about if you take steps to add your own artistic vision>So I am not removing my pix they are leaving but I'm not removing them?
I have hundreds of Screenshots if that is the right term? I guess they are all going to go Bye-Bye
[snip - images that violate ST copyright policy removed]
Mr E
And Aeriq
i don't know who anyone is
[snip - personal information on other people removed]
ok now that was very clear<> I get the message
NO COPY PASTE!oK
i'M GOING THRU MY PIX...
and
Do you
G` no me?
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Risk
Mountain climber
Marooned, 855 miles from Tuolumne Meadows
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Apr 14, 2019 - 06:38pm PT
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Done. I think.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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Apr 14, 2019 - 06:45pm PT
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“Please do not, ever, upload an image onto SuperTopo unless you own the rights to that image. “
Good lord, seems like a simple enough request. This is Chris’ site, we all make a choice to click on it and do whatever we choose, good or bad. Just like we think we have the right to say or post whatever we do.....Chris has the equal right to choose if he wants it on HIS site. If you don’t agree, then don’t contribute. I know what I put on here can be agreed/disagreed with, my photos can be used...if I put them on the internet....I expect they may be used without my permission. I’ve deleted threads of mine if they went in a direction they were not intended...it’s my CHOICE. Like Bullwinkie says, “don’t steal my stuff”.....common coutesty and common sense.
Peace
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Apr 14, 2019 - 07:00pm PT
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Cmac wrote: "We ask you to take a moment now to assure you have no images uploaded on SuperTopo, except for those you own the rights to."
if this is seriously going to be enforced as written above, that means there will be no accommodation for images in the public domain and/or images used under the fair use doctrine.
and if neither of those are going to be allowed then probably 95% of the folks who actually contribute something more than chatter around here, are going to exist with the threat of having all of their contributions deleted.
hopefully, this is clarified and/or thought through more completely.
that said and unfortunately, given the ham handed and repeated lack of respect for the contributions of those who have used this site in the past... i won't be holding my breath.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Apr 14, 2019 - 07:09pm PT
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NahOOO,
It doesn't like there will be any sort of "Fair Use" applied. I went to the La Sportiva video to get fresh pictures of the shoes, just now in real time even though I had altered them they were deleted.
Hey wise ass I have a few choice shots of yours too as do others, If I were to guess it has nothing to do with those. by the way nice pair of Ace's! thnx they seem to have stayed,?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Apr 14, 2019 - 07:35pm PT
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Wow...Mouse's 'Flames' is full of images.
This isn't good.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Apr 14, 2019 - 07:43pm PT
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Loaded many others photos proly still will. Give mine out for free to st. will. continue to do that too.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Apr 14, 2019 - 07:57pm PT
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To be honest, I always thought Mouse had been posting images that he had photographed. It never occurred to me they were not his own works.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Apr 14, 2019 - 08:06pm PT
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I've never even considered posting any photo that wasn't mine. But I pay for an unlimited Flicker account with thousands of photos on it.
I post my own photos here using the standard "image brackets" as I do on the other site I post to, Mudn'Crud.
Apparently because I use a different method of posting my own photos, they've all now vanished. Poof.
Probably 600 of my own photos on just the "PCT With Daughters" thread (I really like that thread). Poof.
Someone operating on this site isn't thinking, isn't analyzing the effect of what seems to be a knee-jerk reaction.
The end of Supertopo? I'd hate to see it. I hope whoever's taking these steps takes a good look at what they've done and fixes it.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Apr 14, 2019 - 08:12pm PT
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God but that was enjoyable - somewhere between a Fleet enema and
a bottle of Ipecac.
Going through all of my photos one at a time deleting the screen grabs from news sites, the goofy memes, funny stuff.
Deleted all of it - my sins have been washed free of me.
Haven't felt this purged since I divorced the first bat sh#t crazy woman I married.
Thanks Chris.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Apr 14, 2019 - 08:13pm PT
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Gnome-FYI "Sloaper" aka Adam /Andrew Burch & Russ Walling AkA Fish have fun Dx-ing Mistaken identity here- Andrew Burch- not to be mistaken with Adam Burch, strictly posts climbing content-two different people.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 14, 2019 - 08:18pm PT
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Chris, please close the "jgill" account and photos. I had to create "jogill" some time back because of difficulty with the former.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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Apr 14, 2019 - 08:18pm PT
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Man...hope I don’t loose contact with some OLD friends that I usually keep up with here! I’ve helped some of these buddies via this site.....Mouse being one, got him to Memorials because we were able to hook up via ST. I’ll fer sure have to update my contact list. Good lord, the Bachar, Fonda and Bridwell Memorials were aided via this place. How many of Todd’s fundraisers would have happened without this medium. There IS good with ST, hope it doesn’t dissolve Getting sad!
Peace
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Gnaw Mean
Trad climber
Manzaneeter
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Apr 14, 2019 - 08:20pm PT
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Mistaken identity here- Andrew Burch- not to be mistaken with Adam Burch, strictly posts climbing content-two different people
Drew is right. Although if you ask Jim Brennen, everyone is Adam Burch, so technically maybe the tiny burnout of the east is on to something.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 14, 2019 - 08:30pm PT
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Pirating someone else's work is one thing, for example scanning an image in a book and posting it. But there are a wealth of images out there in public domain, the operative word being "public." They are not mine, as in I own them, but they are openly available to the public. They are not copyright. Such images range from graphs and charts from the CBO, Pie charts from the California Water Board, historical photographs from years ago, meme's, and so forth.
ST's owner and his operators should clarify their statement before they start pulling images and deleting accounts. Chris Mac cites Federal Law, but he makes no accommodation for material in the public domain, an area which is also codified in law. ST needs to pull it together on this one.
edit: Another question, is scanning articles from long defunct climbing mags a violation of copyright? Some great historical posts here have been copied from out of print mags.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 14, 2019 - 08:44pm PT
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Supertopo in a nutshell.
The responses to Chris' original post range from "Thank you, Chris" (tradmanclimbs and bullwinkle) to "F*#k you, Chris" (Jebus H Bomz).
As usual, Nah000 seems to get it right, followed by a few others who reiterate his questions.
Questions to which answers would be appreciated.
Edit to add: Dingus, why did you delete your post? It was worth keeping.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 14, 2019 - 08:45pm PT
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It's not Chris - it's some lawyer with an ego - and really the guy who set him to it at that.
Don't be a-holes and hold Chris responsible.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 14, 2019 - 08:55pm PT
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Many (most?) are mfm's photos on the flames
And they are all still there > 46K
Square Bracket with img syntax is apparently now gone
Replace {} with squares [] and bye bye
{Img}https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47611096331_2b3e49a113_c.jpg{/Img}
This keeps the potentially "offending" image off ST
Agreed - it is CMAC's site - the Golden Rule
How about a mass download of one's posted images and a mass delete capability.
Then the poster can review all posted images in leisure time!
If you don't own the photo just hot link it from where the original is located.
Unfortunately sometimes you get a way oversized image with hot links and no longer allowed with the former syntax
... if you want to know how crazy...and irrational... some of this can get, consider the following: If you have an old photo of a family member that was taken by another family member, both of whom are dead, and you...also a member of the family...have possession of the only photo...some labs will refuse to make a copy without the written permission of both the person in the photo and the person who took it! When you tell them the people in question are dead...in some cases long dead...their reaction is that they understand that, but according to the law, they still need their written permission!!
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Apr 14, 2019 - 09:00pm PT
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Can of wriggling worms - now my wife comes into this and points out that many of the pictures of me were actually taken by her and she wants them deleted as "I" don't own them. Another 40 pics deleted.
My dogs had their Lawyer call me and ask where are the copies of the model release forms - another 20 pics deleted.
My scenic pictures of my place in the mountains accidentally may have captured some portions of other people's lots - another 15 pics deleted.
The only one I have left is an accidental butt shot of my ass crack which I have also deleted in case Zulily or the Gay Israeli Tourism Board are disturbed.
Now - any idea how to delete myself?
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Apr 14, 2019 - 09:05pm PT
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If you don't own the photo just hot link it from where the original is located.
He said you can't do that
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Apr 14, 2019 - 09:17pm PT
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So if Ansel Adams took the first photograph of some rock and then other people also took pictures of that rock - should they all be compelled to delete their photographs since only Ansel "owned" it?
And these letters I'm using - I have never paid one red cent to an Athenian, a Roman or a Moor - f*#kin thief I am.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 14, 2019 - 09:28pm PT
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They, whoever they are, are taking the position that if I post an image I do not own I am committing copyright infringement. this could not be further from the truth. Not everything is copyrighted, and for good reason.
If there's a lawyer behind this, he's not the clearest glass at the Bar.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Apr 14, 2019 - 09:40pm PT
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totally agree with Ksolem. I kinda dig the oldschool vibe of the setup here, but to fingerwag so broadly and, imo, incorrectly, is rather off-putting.
The recent changes to the ST terms of service had some not-great enhancements of the site's rights to reuse/repurpose/make for-profit use of any uploaded imageries. I don't like this.
the big problem is what damage this no web-photo policy will do to the BULGEMELON thread
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briham89
Big Wall climber
santa cruz, ca
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Apr 14, 2019 - 09:40pm PT
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Wow I just deleted a lot of Memes. Some real gems in there....
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Apr 14, 2019 - 10:09pm PT
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me to deleted whatever was from a source
to bad
it was such a massive waste of time, just like playing human YO_YO
I left the cool photo I used to wish CMac Happy Birthday
a metaphor for something kinda like ? what was it that had us all sharing pictures anyway? what were they of?
I can't remember, is it symptomatic of a medical issue?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 14, 2019 - 10:10pm PT
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How do you photograph a train wreck if you’re on it?
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Apr 14, 2019 - 10:25pm PT
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Fair use? What if you just photoshop a slight Hitler moustache on all of the models in the pictures you scan and post on the Taco? Just sayin', hypothetically.
something like this??
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Avery
climber
New Zealand
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Apr 14, 2019 - 10:34pm PT
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My threads are based around photos.
Nine times out ten I've had the personal permission of the original photographer to post their pics.
The bottom line appears to be ownership of the photo rights.
It would be a real shame if I had to delete them. I would, once again, be vilified for doing so.
What do you think?
PS: HOW DO YOU GO ABOUT CONTACTING CHRIS MAC?
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Gnaw Mean
Trad climber
Manzaneeter
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Apr 14, 2019 - 10:51pm PT
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I’ll see you that, and raise you:
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Gnaw Mean
Trad climber
Manzaneeter
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Apr 14, 2019 - 10:56pm PT
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Gnaw Mean
Trad climber
Manzaneeter
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Apr 14, 2019 - 11:02pm PT
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, Bozeman, the ocean, or ?
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Apr 14, 2019 - 11:39pm PT
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Good bye my Tongan Olympian. Sigh
Susan
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 14, 2019 - 11:40pm PT
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Apr 14, 2019 - 10:31pm PT
He said you can't do that
CMac didn't say you couldn't hot link.
He said you couldn't upload pics to your account that wasn't yours.
------- g t
They have removed the ability to actually embed the image on ST
YOU must leave the ST page to see the image
But right
Mr. Mac did not say anything about hot linking
It was Herr Braun who brought it up
------- g t2
You agree not to post, upload to, transmit, distribute, store, create or otherwise publish or send through the Service any of the following: User Content that is unlawful, libelous, defamatory, obscene, pornographic, indecent, lewd, suggestive, harassing, threatening, abusive, inflammatory, fraudulent or otherwise objectionable;
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ß Î Ř T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Apr 15, 2019 - 12:46am PT
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follow the money Probably Free Solo (Jimmy Chin et al) that threatened the OP.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 15, 2019 - 03:39am PT
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whats so hard about not stealing peoples work...
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Apr 15, 2019 - 04:42am PT
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From past experience, I think CMac made the post and is unlikely to check back in on the thread, so for those thinking they'll get a response....
I also don't doubt the actions taken were done because of memes or public domain images(and no, just because a picture is "on the web without a copyright mark" it's not public domain).
I think Donald Trump got his cheeks aflame in the political threads and threatened to sue CMac. He siced Giuliani on Chris and as we all know, that man's threat has teeth!
But seriously, I do think someone probably had a lawyer get involved. Who, over what - no idea. And now this is what we have....
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Apr 15, 2019 - 06:02am PT
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I deleted 7 questionable photos of 237.
Hopefully I am now in compliance.
I think I am OK.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Apr 15, 2019 - 06:46am PT
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The meme boys are not going to like this.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Apr 15, 2019 - 07:07am PT
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Here is a partial list of my climbing trip reports with my own photos that were just destroyed:
A few of these threads for old classic routes have interactions with a member of the first ascent party.
Actually, is that screenshot legal? I don’t own the css or layout of supertopo pages, but I did generate the content of each trip report title and thumbnail image and I did capture the screenshot that generated this image....
Probably 10,000+ or 20,000+ views across the reports. Where is the line between potential lawsuit and lost potential ad revenue? Probably more than 20,000 page views required to justify a single lawsuit risk. Sad sad world.
Well, the host has stopped the music and turned on the lights. Will people stay and party anyways or move on? Time will tell.
In any case this DEFINITELY belongs on the first world problems thread.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Apr 15, 2019 - 07:21am PT
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What NutAgain said.
I followed all the rules here: posted only my own photos, kept the political posting to a low roar, and was respectful of others (mostly).
And all my photos are gone? All my trip reports are useless?
The words "orgy of self destruction" come to mind.
I just took Supertopo off my first page "favorites."
I think I'll leave to climb with my older daughter in Joshua Tree for a week (she actually asked me to join her!!).
Will Supertopo still exist when I get back? Will some shell of the site be surrounded by wreckage? Will I ever post again?
All the world awaits the news....
(Lots of you I'll miss here, see you on another, similar site?)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 15, 2019 - 07:26am PT
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Where is the line between potential lawsuit and lost potential ad revenue? Probably more than 20,000 page views required to justify a single lawsuit risk.
so the images you don't own were being used to generated revenue on a site you don't have a financial interest in?
copyright is just that, defining the right to copy an image, and the image is property with a well determined owner who has the right to use it for financial gain (or anything else). The whole point is that the value of the image should result in gain to the owner.
I've had photographers ask me to remove images I had "hot linked" from their web sites, or scanned from old magazines, and I've complied. I don't see any problem with that... but at the same time, I shouldn't use images without permission, many photographers don't look at my posts here.
Being reminded isn't so bad, and having the offending images removed complies with the law.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Apr 15, 2019 - 07:35am PT
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Should we discover copyright infringing photos on your account, all your photos will be deleted and wiped from the server as a protective measure, and your account may be de-activated.
I realize that Chris McNamara will probably not read this, and I say it as a non-climber. While it is his site and he can do what he pleases, this seems unnecessarily harsh.
(1) People's posts and trip reports each form a whole; to remove and destroy all their past photos because SuperTopo judges that one or two of them violate copyright law is unnecessary and draconian. While it may technically be within your rights, to remove their material without warning harms members and may in some cases affect their livelihood. If a lawyer told you to do that, that lawyer may be dangerously short-sighted.
(2) SuperTopo is a community. To deactivate an otherwise blameless member's account because because of activity that occurred long before this rule was made is unfair and tears at the fabric of this community. Many members have been removed by death; please do not contribute to further separation and trauma by removing people for copyright violations.
(3) SuperTopo should clarify how this relates to the "fair use" doctrine mentioned by others in this thread. The fair use doctrine permits certain uses of copyrighted material without first having to obtain permission. These seem to be precisely the kind of use that usually has occurred on SuperTopo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
I'm guessing that someone complained to SuperTopo about a particular photo or photos. I understand that SuperTopo may not be able to check each photo for fair use. Nonetheless, because this doctrine means that the vast majority of photos on the site are okay, I think SuperTopo should stop deleting photos and members based on past posts. People with power should not just listen to their lawyers, but also to their hearts.
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Apr 15, 2019 - 07:53am PT
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Here is a partial list of my climbing trip reports with my own photos that were just destroyed:
Yup no more trip reports.
So how does one prove that a picture they post is theirs?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 15, 2019 - 08:10am PT
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But, Sewelly, what about the chillen? The lawyers’ chillen that is.
Page 2:
The Ebola epidemic in the Congo is threatening to leap borders.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 15, 2019 - 08:12am PT
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I have 1400 images to go through, the vast majority are my own photos... but I have linked photos from other sites, and scanned old magazines...
hopefully you all have downloaded the posts and threads you feel are important to you, it seems a big change is coming.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Apr 15, 2019 - 08:14am PT
|
For those who have lost recent trip reports and images and can't easily retrieve them, might they still be in Google's cache? Older images and trip reports might be in the Internet Way Back machine if it happened to scan the page.
I agree with Ed that it makes sense to keep a backup copy of everything one puts on the Internet.
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WBraun
climber
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 08:22am PT
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I've uploaded several peoples photos in the long past because they did not know how to post photos and asked me to uploaded them for them.
This recent event is unbelievably draconian.
Now that's a tame statement by my standards :-).
I would rather say what I really think.
The words would not be pretty ...... :-)
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seano
Mountain climber
none
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Apr 15, 2019 - 08:29am PT
|
How about a mass download of one's posted images and a mass delete capability.
That works for me: save a copy of the stuff I've posted, then delete it all. I think I have rights to every image I posted, but I might be wrong, and it would take more time than I want to spend to go back and see if I infringed someone's copyright five years ago.
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DonC
climber
Bishop and Redlands
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Apr 15, 2019 - 08:33am PT
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There are many great trips reports here where one partner writes the report and includes their own pictures plus pictures from their partner – this will create a big gap in many reports if partner provided pictures are deleted
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A Essex
climber
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Apr 15, 2019 - 08:38am PT
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Chaz
Trad climber
Straight Outta Crafton
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Apr 15, 2019 - 09:02am PT
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I just checked. Mine all say "Credit Chaz" ... so I'm good.
This one's new. No one's seen it yet.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Republic, WA
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Apr 15, 2019 - 09:06am PT
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Out of the 209 pictures that I have posted, I deleted 23 of them. Most of them were pics of car models that I have owned in the past. I grabbed them off the Internet without considering who owned them or if it was cool to post them. I don't know much about these things but it seems reasonable to the ignorant to be considerate. I don't have any attachment to anything I have posted here or anywhere on the Internet. If it was gone tomorrow, so be it. All the good stuff I have gleaned or experienced from participating on this site remains in my heart or on my contacts list. This whole site could disappear and i would still have all of value that I need or want. When you contribute to something you have no control over why bitch about it? If you feel wronged in some manner, do something about it or walk away. Simple.
This is just the way I see it. I don't expect anyone to agree.
Everyone is free to make choices. If this site is not how it used to be or not how you like it or want it to be, that is your problem.
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Apr 15, 2019 - 09:08am PT
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I noticed they didn't touch any of Apogees downloaded photos
that he doesn't own. Same goes for 10b4me
I noticed that too.
I've always respected Chris, but Chris has always seemed to be an absentee landlord.
He comes by one day and sees weeds growing in the yard, and takes it out on the tenants.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 09:09am PT
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None of Cosmics stuff is around which leads me to believe him and Ron A are behind this purge...?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Apr 15, 2019 - 09:14am PT
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Chaz... Friday Harbor ?
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Apr 15, 2019 - 09:14am PT
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Send a request to CMAC or RJ.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 15, 2019 - 09:15am PT
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RJ, commendable analysis, braj! I was thinking that CMac could also have just read Shakespeare’s “Henry V” prompting his soul cleansing exercise in nouveau-Machiavellian prophylactic purge.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 09:18am PT
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Reilly...Spent some time their...The ex motha in law lives a few blocks from that dock...rj
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A Essex
climber
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 09:19am PT
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wow, this some piddly poo poo
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Chaz
Trad climber
Straight Outta Crafton
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 09:22am PT
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RottingJohnny:
That's Coupeville on Whidbey Island. M/V Salish is loading for a Port Townsend run.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 15, 2019 - 09:22am PT
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RJ, I meant the Cosmic Conspiracy theory.
I don’t think it’s Friday Harbour. Mukilteo?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 09:24am PT
|
I hope that whoever brought this about is happy with their actions because this is the end of this forum as a ready resource. Nobody is going to wade into my photobucket account for every posted page or image which is what one has to do now and it is only a matter of time before that gets disrupted and the content is lost.
I have permission to post much of the historical content that has been made available to everyone here but my efforts will now be directed toward my own North American Climbing History Archives (NACHA) website.
It has been fun folks but this tar pit wrecks it all.
Cheers
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Republic, WA
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Apr 15, 2019 - 09:37am PT
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I hear you, Steve. Not what it used to be. I am so glad you started NACHA. Your historical contributions to this site are near the top of my list of why I come here at all. That and the dozen or so friends that post here. The rest is just noise. Even the sacred trip reports. A lot of them are crap. Narcissistic Crap. There is an art to a well formed trip report. Pics are not necessary.
Live long and prosper.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Apr 15, 2019 - 09:46am PT
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Why would you delete something you have permission to post?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Apr 15, 2019 - 09:49am PT
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Nobody from this website is going to go through all your photos looking for infringements.
Just use your heads (i.e. dont piss anyone off who's photo you might have copied who also might be looking here)
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 10:11am PT
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So how does one save a thread? There are several I would like to save before they get nuked. This sucks.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Redmond, Oregon
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 10:30am PT
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ST has been on life support for a decade
Word, I'm out. I'll come back around once in a while to check in on you folks but honestly; I have climbing to do...
PS The internet has robots that search every site for intellectual property (pictures). Businesses that don't have the rights to the pics that are used on their site are heavily fined.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Apr 15, 2019 - 10:31am PT
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Maybe think twice before deleting the work of Steve Grossman and similar. The info isn't available to the public anywhere else and the publishers may give permission, or may already have. It sounds like someone was threatened. Remember there are a dozen or more lawyers on here who can back you up.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 10:48am PT
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Holy Sheep Dip
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 10:48am PT
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nah000, well put. I’m sure I’ll be corrected but it seems a short-sighted, if not self-defeating, strategy in that traffic determines the site’s ad revenue. I aver that such outweighs guidebook sales by a longshot. Maybe CMac figures he’ll just ride off into the internet sunset in a dust trail of declining ad revenue rather than incur legal costs?
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shylock
Social climber
mb
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Apr 15, 2019 - 10:52am PT
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wow, walleye gone.. amazing (original) photos and great stories gone
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 10:55am PT
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I FOR ONE
WANT TO THANK EVERYONE (WITH EXCEPTION OF SLOAPER= H CRUB) FOR WHAT HAS BEEN SO MOTIVATIONAL
AS TO HAVE BEEN INSPIRATIONAL A CRUCIAL PART OF MY REHABILITATION
SOME DAY I HOPE TO SHARE WHAT HAS BEEN FOR ME,
THE LONG ROAD BACK
HOW APPROPRIATE THAT NOTRE DAME IS BURNING TO THE GROUND
AS MY CHURCH HERE, TOO, IS IN FLAMES
I FOR ONE
WANT TO THANK EVERYONE (SAVE, SLOAPER= H CRUB)
FOR WHAT HAS BEEN SO MOTIVATIONAL
AS TO HAVE BEEN INSPIRATIONAL
A CRUCIAL PART OF MY REHABILITATION
SOME DAY I HOPE TO SHARE WHAT HAS BEEN FOR ME THE LONG ROAD BACK
IT HAS BEEN DEVINE
IT HAS BEEN A JOY
IT HAS BEEN IMPORTANT
I WILL MISS THIS NO-PLACE
HOW APPROPRIATE THAT NOTRE DAME IS BURNING TO THE GROUND AS MY CHURCH HERE, TOO, IS IN FLAMES
THE END IS NIGH
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Apr 15, 2019 - 11:14am PT
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From my point of view, this is a free service and I don't want to cause legal problems for someone giving me something for free. This looks like an overreaction to something, and we don't know what it was. 99% of the pictures I see on Facebook come from people who don't own them. I am more interested in the cause of all this.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Apr 15, 2019 - 11:22am PT
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T Hocking, Trad climber, Redding, Ca, Apr 15, 2019 - 11:17am PT
Supertopo;
Can you take 5 minutes of your time to explain why our privately owned photos
posted to non-political threads have been massively purged from your site?
Should we discover copyright infringing photos on your account, all your photos will be deleted and wiped from the server as a protective measure, and your account may be de-activated.
Please understand that copyright infringement is a violation of Federal law.
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seano
Mountain climber
none
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Apr 15, 2019 - 11:24am PT
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Actually, f**k you. It was easy, and only took a few minutes to "delete" all my photos.
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nathanael
climber
CA
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Apr 15, 2019 - 11:51am PT
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I mourn the loss of those trip reports and so much other good content. NutAgain in particular I've read many of yours and they were always good entertainment. Likewise those from many other members.
Thank you all for your contributions over many years. It's tragic they are now destroyed.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 15, 2019 - 12:01pm PT
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I stopped uploading images some time ago since the definition on ST was not good. Especially the math imagery I did. Instead, I upload them to my website, then do a (hot) link on ST. Guess that's gone now.
This would be poorly reproduced as an upload here.
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WBraun
climber
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 12:10pm PT
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Your modern world just keeps on getting more and more st00pid and sterile.
All masqueraded as advancement of modern mankind.
Yer all gonna become sterile robots if not already there ......
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Apr 15, 2019 - 12:17pm PT
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Don't forget to delete your Avatars if you didn't create the image. Looking at you Duck.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 12:22pm PT
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This [Click to View Linked Image] thing is fuking ghey.
Supertopo basically came into existence out of rec.climbing due to an ability to add pictures to a conversation.
You could post links on rec.climbing, too - like 20 years ago.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Apr 15, 2019 - 12:23pm PT
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Are there some good alternatives to SuperTopo that take the Fair Use Doctrine into account with respect to photos? If not, could one be created?
This does feel like it was an online community, however imperfect. If SuperTopo has become uncomfortable hosting it, is there somewhere else it could thrive?
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Apr 15, 2019 - 12:37pm PT
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I remember rec.climbing. Karl Baba ran it I think. The Facebook platform would work fine for this. There are closed groups and secret groups if you want them. One group I'm a member of is the Karakoram club with over 100,000 members. Facebook can handle that easily.
The content loss is one thing but above all supertopo is a unique collection of people and it will be sad if people leave. Mountain project and climbing.com just aren't communities, and don't have the concentration of experienced climbers this site has had. but life goes on. My main criteria is that it works on my phone.
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Apr 15, 2019 - 12:47pm PT
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I remember rec.climbing. Karl Baba ran it I
It was run by Eugene Miya.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 15, 2019 - 12:54pm PT
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You noobs ooz AOL - it was usenet, nobody ran it.
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A Essex
climber
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 01:04pm PT
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(crusty trad summit photo)
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 01:18pm PT
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My life is over ;-)
Take a deep breath, and step away from the keyboard.
Embrace the brave new world.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Apr 15, 2019 - 01:30pm PT
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Done. This place is gonna be a lot less interesting. Oh, well. That's a bitch about some of the TR's, though. What the hell?
BAd
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Apr 15, 2019 - 01:30pm PT
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Can you take 5 minutes of your time to explain why our privately owned photos
posted to non-political threads have been massively purged from your site?
Because corporations are winning the battle for the Internet.
If you think it is bad now, just wait for all the censorship that is in the pipeline because Google and Facebook get tired of paying the Europeans multi billion fines.
And don't think that censorship is going to stop at the EU border.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Apr 15, 2019 - 01:33pm PT
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Why won’t he come back on here and talk to us a little? Same goes for the other thread which raises just as many unanswered questions.
Those of you who know him why don’t you ask him to take a few minutes and dialog with us on these two ? Harrison? C Mac has never intereacted even a little tiny bit. C’mon back CMac you got yer ears on?
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 01:48pm PT
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Hey Chris, Will do this review of my photos as soon as there is some time...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 02:00pm PT
|
I’m sure I’ll be corrected but it seems a short-sighted, if not self-defeating, strategy in that traffic determines the site’s ad revenue. I aver that such outweighs guidebook sales by a longshot. Maybe CMac figures he’ll just ride off into the internet sunset in a dust trail of declining ad revenue rather than incur legal costs?
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jogill
climber
Colorado
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 02:01pm PT
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Steve and others (including me) interested in the history of climbing could be in a pickle. Especially when posting old photos from books. Here is a little clarity:
"The law on copyright duration has been amended many times and determining whether an older book is still protected by copyright is more difficult. However, any book published prior to 1923 is currently in the public domain. Works published prior to Mar. 1, 1989, without any notice of copyright are also in the public domain, because the law required notice on all works published before that date."
Photos in books:
"Published from 1923 – 1963: . . . now extended by 20 years for a total renewal of 67 years. If not so renewed, now in public domain."
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Avery
climber
New Zealand
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 03:27pm PT
|
DO YOU HAVE TO DELETE PHOTOS YOU HAVE PERMISSION TO POST?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 03:28pm PT
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went through all my over 2k photos. deleted a half dozen that were borrowed from friends and 2 shamelessly stolen photos. I have a half dozen or so pictures of the covers of old climbing books but they are not close enough to be reproductions of the actual photo. they are photos that I took with a book in the photo.
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DonC
climber
Bishop and Redlands
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 04:27pm PT
|
as noted, the SuperTopo Facebook page reposts many SuperTopo forum threads that clearly have pictures from other than the posting author. So SuperTopo is leveraging a lot of content from others that does not meets its own criteria in order to get clicks...
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Apr 15, 2019 - 04:45pm PT
|
Does this mean the duck has to take his picture down?
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 04:47pm PT
|
as noted, the SuperTopo Facebook page reposts many SuperTopo forum threads that clearly have pictures from other than the posting author. So SuperTopo is leveraging a lot of content from others that does not meets its own criteria in order to get clicks...
Looks like some of CMack’s pictures in his album are copyrighted material.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 04:50pm PT
|
Before you start an uprising, realize the implication. The hosts of the forum don't owe us anything. Antagonizing them will have no good outcome.
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WyoRockMan
climber
Grizzlyville, WY
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 04:52pm PT
|
the Bulgemelon thread will not be harmed
RIP Bulgemelon.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 04:53pm PT
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The hosts of the forum don't owe us anything.
They don’t owe us anything? Who generates the site traffic that is their bread and butter
from those gay cruise ads?
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ron gomez
Trad climber
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 05:11pm PT
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Supertopo, really does not owe us anything. I would LOVE to see what happened if they just shut it down for a day.....watch the epic unfold. We don’t pay a single penny to post pretty much whatever we want and apparently the crew that runs this place has decided enough is enough. Sponsors pay for this site...plain and simple. If Supertopo is under any pressure to make changes....so be it. Start a pay climbing vent site, see how far you get. I belong to other sites that have strict rules about posts and if you violate, they delete. No one is complaining on those sites......BECAUSE YOU AGREE TO TERMS OF USE!
I do hope all gets worked out and this place can be a social climbing web site with “relevant material”, I stay in touch with many friends here, I get good information on climbing related material, it allows us to keep tabs with climbing related material and all that encompasses.
Peace
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 05:12pm PT
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Does this mean the duck has to take his picture down?
He can take mine:
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 05:24pm PT
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The Sonny Bono NWR Synchronized Swim Team
I said “Sonny Bono”, but KNOTT in a political sense!
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 06:06pm PT
|
Starting to feel like rockclimbing.com...
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zBrown
Ice climber
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 06:14pm PT
|
I own the rights to this image and confirm that it meets SuperTopo.com's standards. By clicking the but ...
What exactly does this mean?
How does one acquire and prove ownership?
Say what? Seen this one yet?
[click to view linked image]
[Click to View Linked Image]
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 06:17pm PT
|
And it's beginning to smell like a dumpster fire, or a corpse.
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Robb
Social climber
Cat Box
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 06:19pm PT
|
Bulgemelon…..NOOOOOOOOO...…..
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DonC
climber
Bishop and Redlands
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 07:18pm PT
|
I do some photography work, have a web site, and occasionally get a demand letter from Getty Images to take down one of my images because it is copyrighted by them or one of their clients, or be subject to various actions.
They have image algorithms that search the web for images similar to those that they hold a copyright to, then have ambulance chasers (sorry to real emergency responders for use of term) that go after you with virtually no real research. It can be a hassle to untangle one of these.
I wonder if Chris has something similar now that compares images posted on SuperTopo to other copyrighted images.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 07:45pm PT
|
The chances of winning money in a suit against the site are less than zero. Nil. There’s just no fuking way.
In Chris’s position, I would have told the accuser to go pound sand. Been there, been threatened with served court filings and letters designed to do nothing other than bully and threaten me - done just that.
Let them send their letters and legal filings and let them spend the time and money they’ll never get back to stroke their own egos. I would be fine “pro se” even with the threat of a trial on this one. There’s just no money to be recovered here.
Worst worst nuclear it would never actually happen case - I assume he’s insured to some degree, this would cover defense.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 07:47pm PT
|
Sponsors pay for this site...plain and simple. If Supertopo is under any pressure to make changes....so be it.
Yes... and no.
Sponsors only pay if something comes back to them in return. In the case of websites like this one, that something is either site visits or clicks. Drive enough of the campfire clowns away, and sponsors will leave, too.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 08:24pm PT
|
Well, sailinganarchy.com is a pretty good counterexample for all the clutching purses and palpitations from the owners of this site. I've saved the threads of interest to me. Maybe I'll write a book, modeled on the Great Sierra Drug Crash.
Really sort of soul destroying that trip reports are being deleted. There is so much on this site that has evolved over the years; it will be sad to see it go. Some of the threads are 12,000 or more posts long; is that all going to be trashed? The posts and the directions threads have gone are wonderful and represent an almost oral history. I hope it doesn't all vanish.
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Jim Clipper
climber
|
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|
Apr 15, 2019 - 08:30pm PT
|
and yet, it bulged...
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DonC
climber
Bishop and Redlands
|
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|
Apr 15, 2019 - 09:06pm PT
|
and then there are model releases...
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zBrown
Ice climber
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 09:38pm PT
|
Ok
So I did not upload this second dawg photo below, Sloaper did
It is credited to sloaper
[photoid=nnnnnn]
As far as I can tell I have not violated the ST TERMS by posting it here
I did not ask his permission
He can ask me to take it down
Edit:
He appears to not want it posted by me
"I did not give zBrown permission"
So I have now taken it down
Now, what about this?
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=851972&msg=3177599#msg3177599
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zBrown
Ice climber
|
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|
Apr 15, 2019 - 09:43pm PT
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Funny
I saw that recently
I can not remember what caused it to pop
Bulgemelon?
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 10:19pm PT
|
Lovegasoline! I just saw that Goya in person!
Not my favorite.
I post a lot of photos that I take of artwork that I see in museums. A few museums and a few exhibits don’t allow you to take photos but most do.
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zBrown
Ice climber
|
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Apr 15, 2019 - 10:21pm PT
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Sloaper
Didn't you see the smiley face, Zbrown?
I was being facetious
I did not notice the smiley until the second part.
But your comment worked perfectly in the scenario to show how objections can be handled and how messy the ST system is.
:)
While on the topic of ownership
Your License to Supertopo
By submitting, posting or displaying User Content on or through the Service, you grant us a worldwide license to use, host, store, reproduce, modify, create derivative works (such as those resulting from translations, adaptations or other changes we make so that your content works better with our Services), communicate, publish, publicly perform, publicly display and distribute such content. The rights you grant in this license are for the limited purpose of operating, promoting, and improving our Services, and to develop new ones. This license continues even if you stop using our Services. Make sure you have the necessary rights to grant us this license for any content that you submit to our Services.
You agree that this license includes the right for SuperTopo to make your User Content available to others for the publication, distribution, syndication, or broadcast of such User Content on other media and services, subject to our terms and conditions for such User Content use. Such additional uses by SuperTopo or others may be made with no compensation paid to you with respect to the User Content that you submit, post, transmit or otherwise make available through the Service.
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john hansen
climber
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Apr 15, 2019 - 11:14pm PT
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I looked at my photo's and they were almost all birds and landscapes.
It is a shame that super topo has come to this.
I have had some conversations with many great people who have answered
my questions and shared story's here. Including Royal Robbins and Don Luria
And Pat Ament John Long , Tom Higgins, Boodawg and and many others
Pictures are always worth a thousand words. I admit I started the "Iconic Photo " thread many years ago where many iconic pictures were posted. I suppose I will be banned.
Was really stoked in 06 when I found this place. Met lots of people online and got to know them like friends through the years.
All those post's deleted.. what a shame.
Is the bird thread next?
Where are Limping Crab and Vitaly trip reports? Where they might have posted each others photo's.. I hope the super topo staff do not destroy the good stuff to get rid of the bad stuff.
So much history has been recorded here.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Apr 15, 2019 - 11:21pm PT
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John, ^ that!
and the melon...
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Apr 16, 2019 - 09:23am PT
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I hope it's not dead. It would be a shame to lose threads like DonC's history of Big Rock.
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A Essex
climber
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Apr 16, 2019 - 09:24am PT
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'trust' is a funny word
trusting the Supertaco with images has proved riskier than bitcoin
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 16, 2019 - 09:29am PT
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It would be nice to see the forum managed better. The hands-off thing doesn't work, nor does knee-jerk deleting of content.
I guess it depends who buys it.
As a guidebook publisher, all his material seems outdated. Most books are pre 2010, some much older.
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Apr 16, 2019 - 09:36am PT
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The better thing to have done would have been to give it away to someone with a sense and respect for our history. Someone among us has the deeper pockets to just pay the monthly site fees and keep alive all that is being deleted.
How about charging users a monthly fee? Just enough to keep the site up, and running?
Admittedly, I don't climb anymore, but I came here for the political discussions, trip reports, and to give feedback on some topics.
There have been off topic discussions(remember Chris' solar panel thread?)
for at least ten years or so.
For those that say a climbing site should only be about climbing,
well, there's this:
"I don't want to write about climbing; I don't want talk about it; I don't want to photograph it; I don't want to think about it; all I want to do is do it." — Chuck Pratt.
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ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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Apr 16, 2019 - 09:48am PT
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I’m not taking the time to do sh#t. This site has more than thoroughly violated its trust to the community of climbers it depends on by recklessly and incompetently erasing thousands and thousands of posts that encapsulated rich beta and first-person climbing history we may never get back. Delete away, chumps.
Captures my sentiments.
if you didn't make the photograph don't post it, doesn't belong to you no matter what the Law says, it's really simple, it's called common courtesy and being honest.ive had people on this forum scan photographs from my books and post them here, class acts, I don't care whether you give proper credit or not if you don't own it look at it don't steal it. . .df
That seems a bit different, actively scanning intellectual property and posting it without consent. It seems the fair use standard allows exactly what has been taking place here and at most any other interactive website/forum.
I think this action is way misguided. How does anyone post photos on the internet with the expectation that they won't be shared or re-used? I certainly don't.
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Radish
Trad climber
SeKi, California
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Apr 16, 2019 - 10:08am PT
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What!! Selling Supertopo!! This is starting to sound like when REI took over Mountain Project....and ALL the hardwork done by its inputers. We put all that gathered info in and someone else benefits....No?? Yes??
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 16, 2019 - 10:12am PT
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How can I get my account deactivated with all posts and photos s rubbed without resorting to being a dick about it? Walleye was able to do it.
I want mine done like that now too.
And I'm 1000% serious ......
Administration ..... are YOU LISTENING? DO IT NOW !!!!!!
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Apr 16, 2019 - 10:14am PT
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Zbrown I don't see anything in that license that allows those rights to be transferred or sold. They are not transferable, since they involve copyrights and there is no consideration paid for using the material. And without an audience I'm not sure what someone thinks they're buying anyway. Hopefully the rumor isn't true.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 16, 2019 - 10:31am PT
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I have no idea over the years, as to how many times I have posted images I do not own. The most efficient way to correct this is for ALL of my posts to be deleted in their entirety.
Please do this.
After this request any failure to erase my posts would seem an act for which the site can be held accountable.
Jstan
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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Apr 16, 2019 - 10:59am PT
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Man, if Chris(and company) have an opportunity to build a company for years, build it to the point of being marketable and are offered a sale that they are comfortable with....good for them! I find it hard to believe all the critics, good or bad, if they worked for years to start, build and keep a business going...build it to an attractive situation where you can MAKE SOME MONEY that you would say,”no my “customers” are so good to me...even though they don’t pay for or take any risk on the business, that I’ll pass up the money to keep them happy!”
I don’t know if a sale is happening, but if it is...good for Supertopo.
Funny how a lot of people go onto another site that did the same plan and that’s cool? Remember, if you don’t agree with or don’t like the situation, you are completely free not to click on and get frustrated. That’s the biggest way a business pays attention....when customers leave.
Peace
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Apr 16, 2019 - 11:03am PT
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^ better pay attention to Mr Stannard. Not only a famous climber but also a published author. Featured in Life Magazine, a copyrighted publication.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 16, 2019 - 11:23am PT
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If this site is being groomed for sale, I would think that some due diligence would reveal to the buyer that its traffic is poised to decline.
We do vote with our feet here. No traffic; no value.
But is there any actual basis to the sale rumors?
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Apr 16, 2019 - 11:40am PT
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Zbrown the marbles still belong to them and they can republish their trip reports elsewhere. Supertopo has no exclusive rights, or any rights at all if the authors tell them to remove their work. The potential buyer was just threatened with legal action. (See JS post just above: "After this request any failure to erase my posts would seem an act for which the site can be held accountable.")
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 16, 2019 - 11:55am PT
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The potential buyer was just threatened with legal action.
Would you care to share more info?
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Apr 16, 2019 - 12:41pm PT
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hey, I like the Flames and Old Tractor threads
are they gone now because all the images are not personally taken and owned?
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Apr 16, 2019 - 12:42pm PT
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Man...hope I don’t loose contact with some OLD friends that I usually keep up with here! I’ve helped some of these buddies via this site.....Mouse being one, got him to Memorials because we were able to hook up via ST. I’ll fer sure have to update my contact list. Good lord, the Bachar, Fonda and Bridwell Memorials were aided via this place. How many of Todd’s fundraisers would have happened without this medium. There IS good with ST, hope it doesn’t dissolve Getting sad!
Peace
I've had off forum communication with most (but not all) of the people I've interacted with on the forum. So I have phone numbers and/or email addys of those members.
In the end, whatever is in the works, would prefer to see the taco sold than disappear.
Do agree the loss of content is a travesty.
So, if I understand correctly, CMac is trying to clean up the forum based on input from a potential buyer? Kinda like a home inspection prior to purchase?
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WyoRockMan
climber
Grizzlyville, WY
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Apr 16, 2019 - 12:43pm PT
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Bulging my melon watching this.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Apr 16, 2019 - 01:03pm PT
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how did we get to the opinion that Chris is going to either close or sell this forum?
did he say this somewhere, please post the link?
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Apr 16, 2019 - 01:15pm PT
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how did we get to the opinion that Chris is going to either close or sell this forum?
did he say this somewhere, please post the link?
Dood, read between the lines. This place has been a relatively unregulated free for all for years. In the last year or so the hosts have been wielding a somewhat heavy hand. Banning members, deleting content, etc.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Apr 16, 2019 - 02:46pm PT
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I hope that whoever brought this about is happy with their actions because this is the end of this forum as a ready resource. Nobody is going to wade into my photobucket account for every posted page or image which is what one has to do now and it is only a matter of time before that gets disrupted and the content is lost.
I have permission to post much of the historical content that has been made available to everyone here but my efforts will now be directed toward my own North American Climbing History Archives (NACHA) website.
It has been fun folks but this tar pit wrecks it all.
Cheers
Steve- Could be your NACHA could be the next step to keeping the magic alive.
The reason for this statement is a backpacking forum I was on (sponsored by Backpacking Magazine) went kaput about 10 years ago. An entrepreneurial member managed to resurrect it independent of BP magazine.
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john hansen
climber
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Apr 16, 2019 - 03:51pm PT
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I noticed the "Total Messages Posted" amount dropped by about 100,000.
A lot of that was probably just from Dingus and Mouse....
Who else got the chop?
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Apr 16, 2019 - 03:57pm PT
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I don’t understand why it needs to be this way :(
The hosts are entrepreneurs. Their focus is on the future, not the past.
The taco is a sideline, not their main income source.
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McGinnis
climber
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Apr 16, 2019 - 04:09pm PT
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Feels like a remodel. Tear it down to the framework then rebuild it the way you want.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 16, 2019 - 05:52pm PT
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DMT was all SuperTopo/ all the time, so it is almost worth the upheaval just to have him finally gone.
Craig was one of the people that made ST worthwhile.
I don't know if he asked to be removed, or was chopped, but I'll miss him.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Apr 16, 2019 - 05:55pm PT
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Likewise Ghost.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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Apr 16, 2019 - 06:18pm PT
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Refer to polical posts
Peace
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Draperderr, by Bangerter, Utah
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Apr 16, 2019 - 07:04pm PT
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I have good reasons to not upload lots of my own photos to this site (ones that I have taken, own, and host on my own server). I also didn't want to be one of those d#@&%es who posts a teaser TR with a link redirecting people away from here to the writer's personal site. I guess now I need to finish making my site nicer and become that d#@&%e...
Too bad. I thought trip reports were what made this site.
If anyone wants to view my older ones, or the new ones I was ramping up to begin posting again, they are all available elsewhere. I'll be updating my reports with the direct links at the top.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Under the Webmasters Thumb
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Apr 16, 2019 - 09:21pm PT
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DMT was the Huell Houwser of the Central Valley. How this site let that talent go is beyond me. Seems like someone in charge had a bad day and decided to piss in our cereal and tell us it's our fault.
Time to open the IV of morphine on this dying corpse.
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Zay
climber
Monterey, Ca
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Apr 16, 2019 - 09:25pm PT
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sorry but why is ST doing a blanket deletion of all photos??? is every trip report ever going to suffer this fate?
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Apr 16, 2019 - 09:29pm PT
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Lastly, regarding DMT, you should know that he was not nuked. Dingus Milktoast has been a long time and deeply respected contributor to the site. He asked to have his posts removed in a brief but very kind email to Chris. In his request to remove his posts he said:
Its been a wonderful run and I've no regrets nor criticisms. Thank you for the opportunity to post to and read your wonderful forum. Its time for me to move on. Cheers and see you at the crags.
Dingus Milktoast's contributions were appreciated by Chris and millions of people who have visited the SuperTopo Climber's forum. But, his request to remove his posts was respected. On behalf of all of us, I'd like to thank Dingus, ask you all to join Chris in respecting DMT's personal choice. It will be a pleasure to see him at the crags.
rj
From the politicalKnott thread
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Under the Webmasters Thumb
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Apr 16, 2019 - 09:52pm PT
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Bullshit!
This is playing out like some B-Movie Biblical Movie. The Great Creator CMac starts a world and invites talking monkeys to play in it. The Great Creator then mostly ignores the place for years until one day he looks and says "WTF?".
The talking monkeys, smoking ducks, drooling ungulates, perverts, pornos, proselytizers and sutpid morans have turned his perfect digital world into a zoo.
CMac then sends down his Two Commandments of Thall Shalt Nots followed by his faithful servant Noah of Spurrier who politely blames us for our own sins while the Great Creator smites us with exile and abolishment.
Sh#t like this was why I quit going to Church as a kid.
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fragglerockjoe
Trad climber
space-man from outer space
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Apr 16, 2019 - 10:13pm PT
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Super Twerp
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Apr 17, 2019 - 06:26am PT
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Rj thanks for addressing the rumors and I hope people will reconsider their super- dramatic exits. For the people who want to publish old Alpinist etc articles, I think you need an offsite solution with links here, like mark Hudson did with his trip reports, which are only linked here. You need to contact the publishers and get their permission or in some way that's fair use, such as only posting excerpts and commenting on it or comparing it to how the route is climbed today etc. I haven't researched the legal issues but would be surprised if the laws on photos and YouTube videos arent the same.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 17, 2019 - 07:00am PT
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Rj thanks for addressing the rumors and I hope people will reconsider their super- dramatic exits.
Q. What's the worst part about leaving?
A. People knott knowing that you're leaving!
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Trump
climber
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Apr 17, 2019 - 07:49am PT
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What bums me out is that they didn’t give me more help writing that book that I never wrote. I’d be happy to give y’all a copy of my book free if I’d actually written it. I guess on the plus side though, they did actually give me a place for me to complain about them not helping me more to write that book I never actually wrote.
Facebook can handle that easily
Yea they can. Just ask Cambridge Analytica and Putin and Donnie boy. You can trust that Zuckerberg fellow, with his $66.8 billion net worth, to treat you right! What really gets my goat is when other people work to their own advantage on a smaller level.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Apr 17, 2019 - 08:59am PT
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My guess...
SuperTopo is being sold to a corporate giant that will mine your data but they need clear providence.
This promotional image will serve as my first post after the Great Purge of 2019.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Apr 17, 2019 - 10:32am PT
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It’s a continued pattern that people are sick of and that has degraded the worth of this forum. Maybe you don’t care about climbing anymore but these guys have an especial talent for gutting valuable content in thread after thread, rendering them worthless. You could have written many books off the information they have erased with a few key strokes. It’s a shameful bias against the users and their contributions.
I agree whole heartedly. I'm assuming Chris has his back to a wall on some level, or is completely indifferent and truly doesn't care about the ST climbing community. I'm hoping its the prior.
I have written over 40 TR labors of love, full of photos and creative effort. I'm strongly thinking of deleting all of them and copying and saving them elsewhere before they can be injured on any level with what's going on here. It would be sad to stop visiting this site that has brought me much joy over the years, not to mention created real friendships that have grown outside the forum.
Scott
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 17, 2019 - 02:37pm PT
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The Wiki article regarding DMCA and the "safe harbor" aspect of it is actually a very good summary, including a good list of relevant case law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act
From what I gather, SuperTopo has fully complied with the requirements necessary for it to avoid copyright suits, and it is therefore only required to remove images about which it has received a take-down demand from the copyright holder. At that point, it has no liability.
I believe that the deeper any of you care to go into the provisions of the DMCA and the safe harbor provisions, the more you will agree that it sure appears that an unnecessarily heavy hand is being used here regarding posted images.
I'm not a copyright attorney, but the DMCA (particularly the safe harbor provisions) were not written for attorneys. The goal was to bring an understandable set of rules to the Internet and enable "providers" to create "venues" in which some participants might violate copyright, but without liability to the "providers" themselves (as long as they follow a simple set of rules). And the safe harbor provisions do not apply strictly to ISPs. Multiple court cases have found that bloggers and other content venues, including forums, are also contemplated by safe harbor.
There's no rocket science in interpreting the case law, and I sincerely don't see what the paranoia is about. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I mean that. But the take-downs seem far more sweeping than the law calls for. It's both a shame and seemingly unnecessary for the community to lose all of this content, MOST of which the posters own.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 17, 2019 - 02:43pm PT
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it is therefore only required to remove images about which it has received a take-down demand from the copyright holder. At that point, it has no liability. YES. That is my understanding as well.
Let the accuser do the work.
I've been a plaintiff as well - not copyright, but breach of contract - I won - I always do - but have been surprised by how much legal protection a typical business or citizen has from being harassed by lawsuits - contrary to what one may come to believe through popular media.
The distance between ST.com getting a threat letter and actually having to pay damages on something is basically to the moon and back - all on the accusers dime for legal fees - so there better be a giant pile of cash there to justify it - and in this case there isn't.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 17, 2019 - 02:57pm PT
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so there better be a giant pile of cash there to justify it - and in this case there isn't
In my own experience as plaintiff, and from everything I read, in the vast majority of cases, a cease and desist is the sole goal. And for SuperTopo, that means nothing more than complying with the take-down demand.
"To the moon and back" is a good summation, I believe, of the odds that SuperTopo actually gets sued by a copyright holder. And the law only requires that material be taken down in response to a particular demand. So, the sweeping purge that is going on seems way over the top to me.
Again, sincerely, correct me if I'm wrong.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 17, 2019 - 03:59pm PT
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This is a test to compare an uploaded image to ST vs a linked uploaded image to my website:
The first is OK, but lacks fine detail. The second is more what I want.
Just curious.
Edit: should work now, L. I made an error in typing.
Mike, do you have a high definition screen? I see finer detail on my linked image.
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L
climber
Just livin' the dream
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Apr 17, 2019 - 04:03pm PT
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"This site can’t be reached
www128.pair%20.com’s server IP address could not be found.
Search Google for 128 pair r3d4k7 LBEXP380b2
ERR_NAME_NOT_RESOLVED"
This is what I got when I clicked the link. And that little square with the upside down smiley face.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Apr 17, 2019 - 04:05pm PT
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howdy L!
I get the same image looking at the direct upload or clicking the link.
EDIT: looks like John fixed a link between the L and Bolte tests
John - if I click in the image you uploaded to ST, the resolution looks the same as the linked image. Without enlarging the uploaded image, it does have degraded resolution
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Apr 17, 2019 - 04:06pm PT
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hey there, say, L... i could not get it to work, either...
but, i thought my computer was stalled...
i just now got it to work, so-- it must be fixed?
(i think he added more words, now, since the few seconds ago,
when i clicked) ...
hope this helped?
ahhh, thanks so much, jogill...
hee hee, good-- NOT my computer... :)
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Apr 17, 2019 - 04:06pm PT
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I also posted this response to all my hosted on ST photos being deleted by management today on RJ's Don't post Politics thread. It seems more appropriate here.
Since around 2010 I had used ST as host for all the photos I posted here. When the schist started coming down, I was somewhat concerned that the climbing history thread photos of old climbing magazine ads & catalog pages would be destroyed.
As of this morning, everything was intact. I now discover every last photo I had saved to ST is gone. There are no hot-links in the threads.
So, history fans. This history is not illustrated any longer.
Why would management want to destroy something like these historical threads?
CHOUINARD, GREAT PACIFIC IRONWORKS & Other Gear Threads
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2906806/CHOUINARD-GREAT-PACIFIC-IRONWORKS-Other-Gear-Threads
Chouinard carabiner timeline 12/11/2010
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1327553
Royal Robbins/Mountain Paraphernalia timeline & history.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1022257&msg=1022257
Gauloises, Don Whillians, the Frogs & Climbing history.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1410426/Gauloises-Don-Whillans-the-Frogs-and-Climbing-History
Here's what happened to every one of my photos stored on st.
Apr 17, 2019 - 12:44pm PT
My photos for these trip reports & threads of interest are all gone too.
The Post up a Rock on Tuesday Thread
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2577492/The-Post-Up-a-Rock-on-Tuesday-thread
The five stages of backing off climbs.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1039807/The-five-stages-of-backing-off-climbs
Donini at The City of Rocks: Climbing as a Lifetime Sport! 2010
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Donini-at-The-City-of-Rocks-Climbing-as-a-Lifetime-Sport/t10740n.html
Skyladder & North Face Athabasca Columbia Icefields 1974
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/3051216/Skyladder-Mt-Andromeda-Columbia-Icefields-1974-Recently
2011 Sawtooth Mtns. Choss Adventure----The Grand Aiguille
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1599813&msg=1599813#msg1599813
2012 August A Short Visit to an Island! In NV. with a mtn. & history!
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1902511/A-Short-Visit-to-an-Island-In-NV-with-a-mtn-history
4 mtns, 10 Cuts, & 100 miles of ridgetop dirt road in Idaho! Sept 2012
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1931187&msg=1931187#msg1931187
Training for, then climbing a 28,999’ Tropical Volcano
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/TRAINING-FOR-THEN-CLIMBING-an-AWESOME-8839-meter-28-999-Ft-TROPICAL-VOLCANO/t11824n.html
A Ridge So Far &/or Am I getting too-old for this? Idaho 2018
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-Ridge-So-Far-or-Am-I-getting-too-old-for-this/t13337n.html
FRITZ & HIS FLIES! BITING-FLESH ADVENTURES IN DEEPEST IDAHO! 2018
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/FRITZ-HIS-FLIES-BITING-FLESH-ADVENTURES-IN-DEEPEST-IDAHO/t13327n.html
The Delights of Delano on the 1st day of Summer. 2018
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=3099204&msg=3099702#msg3099702
International Travel Adventures
Bariloche Argentina Treking becomes an adventure. 4/1/2010 http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Patagonia-Treking-becomes-a-Fritz-Adventure-Bariloche-Argentina/t10612n.html
Mustang story on Nepal appreciation thread. Dec 2011
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1680800&msg=1684994#msg1684994
Spring fun in Spain, with some climbing too!
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Spring-fun-in-Spain-with-some-climbing-too/t11400n.html
A visit to Donini’s Bivy cabin in Patagonia & ensuing adventures
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2101371/Chilling-in-Chilean-Patagonia-at-Basecamp-Donini-Bivy March 2013
Brenta Dolomites hiking & climbing 2014
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2482150/Brenta-Dolomites-hiking-stories-history-adventure-thread
A Search for Cave art, Prehistoric women, Wine & Adventures in France 2015
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-Search-for-Cave-art-Prehistoric-women-Wine-Adventures-in-France/t12848n.html
A visit to Dubrovnik, some sailing in Croatia, & an Octoberfest Party on the way home 2017
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-visit-to-Dubrovnik-some-sailing-in-Croatia-an-Octoberfest-Party-on-the-way-home/t13220n.html[/quote]
HOTEL TO HOTEL HIKING WITH HEIDI & JERRY & ANGIE IN THE DOLOMITES 2018
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/HOTEL-TO-HOTEL-HIKING-WITH-HEIDI-JERRY-ANGIE-IN-THE-DOLOMITES/t13352n.html
Idaho climbing adventure classics
A SLICK ROCK Adventure in Idaho with a single Blue Camalot Belay aug.2015
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-SLICK-ROCK-Adventure-in-Idaho-with-a-single-Blue-Camalot-Belay/t12821n.html
Pursuit of BlueBonnet tower and the Lost Crystal Cave. Dec 2009 http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Pursuit-of-Bluebonnet-Tower-and-the-Lost-Crystal-Cave-Sawtooths-Idaho/t10506n.html
Elephant’s Perch New route 1/15/2010
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Elephant_s_Perch_Sawtooth_Range_Idaho_NR_Epic_Pacydermial_Pleasantries_1977/t10566n.html
I saw a possible end of ST coming back about a year & started saving threads from here to my computer.
Also, Tom Lopez, the author of Idaho A Climbing Guide, has hosted these three stories on his website. Pursuit of BlueBonnet tower and the Lost Crystal Cave, Elephant’s Perch New route
A SLICK ROCK Adventure in Idaho with a single Blue Camalot Belay aug.2015
Here's the link. https://www.idahoaclimbingguide.com/contributors/ray-brooks/
Thanks fellow STians. It's been gud to know you!
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L
climber
Just livin' the dream
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Apr 17, 2019 - 04:13pm PT
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Hi Mike Bolte!
We're here in your neighborhood now...Carmel-by-the-Sea. We share an extraordinary Bay.
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Apr 17, 2019 - 04:34pm PT
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I just stumbled on this thread after people complaining on picture removal on another thread. I posted a lot of copyrighted pictures that I had permission from owner to use and they have been deleted from my folder, I believe due to a drop in number of uploaded pictures.
I guess I better go delete some pictures.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 17, 2019 - 04:42pm PT
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I still get a slightly degraded image on ST (at no magnification) compared with linking my site. No big deal.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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Apr 17, 2019 - 04:54pm PT
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Really cool picture Mr. Gill.
Peace
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 17, 2019 - 06:26pm PT
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I agree with Prof Gill
Ez huh?
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 17, 2019 - 06:33pm PT
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John Gill
The hotlinked photo is definitely the better one on my big screen
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A Essex
climber
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Apr 17, 2019 - 08:03pm PT
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(Jesus on a tortilla)
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DonC
climber
Bishop and Redlands
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Apr 17, 2019 - 08:08pm PT
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I’m still trying to figure out what the real requirement/ask is, or if it is serious.
If you go to CMac’s profile and check a few of his pictures, he has posted pictures that are credited to others and posted pictures where he takes the credit but clearly did not take. Both now violations.
RJ has posted pictures credited to others.
I guess they could own the rights to these pictures, but I doubt, for example, that Patagonia and Mountain Hardware have signed over the rights to their product pictures.
Shouldn’t they have been the first to clean-up before even posting this notification?
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Loose Rocks
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
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Apr 17, 2019 - 08:14pm PT
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It's his site so he's responsible. He knows what he has rights to and what he doesn't. He likely has permission from the owners. As for your images he hasn't got a clue.
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DonC
climber
Bishop and Redlands
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Apr 17, 2019 - 08:20pm PT
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having permission is different than owning the rights, which is the stated criteria. I think that's one of things that is driving people crazy. You do a route with friend, they give you permission to use their pictures in a trip report - that is now against posting rules.
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Avery
climber
New Zealand
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Apr 17, 2019 - 08:29pm PT
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Looks like I've got a lot of deleting ahead of me.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Apr 17, 2019 - 09:19pm PT
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Really sorry Fritz, Ezra and Nutagain and others. Such a bummer.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 17, 2019 - 09:20pm PT
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A post I made on the other thread: This is an issue that is arising in various places at the present. For instance, the EU is instituting stricter copyright conditions:
"BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Google will have to pay publishers for news snippets and Facebook filter out protected content under new copyright rules aimed at ensuring fair compensation for the European Union’s $1 trillion creative industries."
In a twist and on a personal level, I was contacted a month or so ago by a German media firm that wanted to use a couple of my photos in a short historical video they are creating for a sponsor. I sent them a letter granting permission to use the photos specifically in that work, but that was not good enough. They sent me a lengthy and bizarre form that essentially gave away all rights to them to use the material in any way they wished. I refused to sign it, and have not heard from them since.
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Michael Browder
Mountain climber
Chamonix, France (Oregon originally)
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Apr 18, 2019 - 12:39am PT
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What a bunch of whiners. GO take your toys and play somewhere else. The Supertopo site won't collapse, and frankly is full of a bunch of has-beens living in a romantic California based past that was never reality. Who really cares about your photos over the long term.
CMac's request seems simple and normal. Many internet sites, magazines, etc. state the same.
If you lost a bunch of photos that were your's and correctly posted, then sorry, but WTF did you expect--they'd last forever on some site on the internet? Or that that site would even be there forever?
And if you want to document history, this ain't the place for a permanent record.
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Dickly
Social climber
KY
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Apr 18, 2019 - 05:07am PT
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Did someone fart?
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Apr 18, 2019 - 08:23am PT
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For me, Supertopo has always been a mixed bag, fun, cringeworthy, informative, a great way to connect with my friends and a bell weather for knowing who to avoid in the real world.
I'm in the camp that this whole process was heavy handed and not enough warning/ time given to comply with new regulations. Tarbuster and a couple of others have stated the obvious.
For myself, today the administrator reminds me of William Barr giving his opinions and then redacting the contents of Supertopo.
Lifted from my dictionary..
re·dac·tion
/rəˈdakSH(ə)n/
noun
the process of editing text for publication.
"what was left after the redaction would be virtually useless"
the censoring or obscuring of part of a text for legal or security purposes.
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Apr 18, 2019 - 08:51am PT
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I hope for now I won’t need to be deleting much, only some pics uploaded from the internet these past few years, which may take some time. And I’m not planning to ask that my account being deactivated, as of yet, because some people are still posting on the Sheep Buggerers thread.
I only know that my heart is no longer in it here. Thanks for the community, folks. I’ve had that lovin’ feeling in this place.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 18, 2019 - 09:06am PT
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Ha ha!
Good one, Nita.
The very heart of this forum has been redacted.
CMAC & RJ: clearly you guys felt you had to do what you had to do. Regardless, the party is over for so many of us.
Happy trails, everyone.
Roy
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Avery
climber
New Zealand
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Apr 18, 2019 - 09:34am PT
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Unfortunately, I agree wholeheartedly with you Tarbuster. Perhaps we should all join together in a spirited rendition of 'Now is the hour'?
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Apr 18, 2019 - 09:35am PT
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Nita, you've always been a good presence here. Just sayin'.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 18, 2019 - 10:53am PT
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Yeah, Nita is a good egg.
Say, Nita: remember way back when you used to mail out vintage postcards to us? You are the bomb.
I don't even remember why exactly: was it for people who guessed correctly on those "name this route" threads?
I got 2 two of them from you!
................................
Ha ha.
Just watch how many of us cling to the ship as it goes down.
We'll keep chatting it up here with or without our crusty old photos, to the bitter end no doubt, quite a few of us.
And there are plenty of folks who will glom on coming into it fresh, who have no idea what was lost.
If the mods want to keep this Caddy Shack going, they can count on both those feeders.
Cracks me up!
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Apr 18, 2019 - 12:00pm PT
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I can be happy with text only, as long as the company is good. Which it is.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Apr 18, 2019 - 12:23pm PT
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Yeah, Nita is a good egg.
Well, if the ship is going down, before we get our feet wet, let me say you've always been a good read, Tarbuster.
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Blakey
Trad climber
Sierra Vista
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Apr 18, 2019 - 12:54pm PT
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This is all rather sad and seems like using a large hammer to crack a small nut. While it's Chris's site to administer as he sees fit, it seems odd to lose so much of what makes (for me) the site and forum what it is, a fabulous resource of information and history.
I've saved all my TRs, (There weren't that many) if he feels the need to eradicate my account for some heinous copyright sin then so be it. It has been a lot of fun.
Best to all!
Steve
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Apr 18, 2019 - 01:02pm PT
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I can understand not wanting to physically store/host pictures that 'might' be some legal liability. The owners don't want the hassle of being sued, whether there is merit in the suits or not doesn't matter. It'd still burn time and money fighting it.
For that matter I store all my photos both backed up on my own physical media and host them on sites where I pay for the storage and bandwidth. If you don't own something or pay for something, never expect anything.
But this site not allowing the ability to hot-link photos from my said personal storage I don't understand. Is there some legal precedent or liability there that I can't find?
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Apr 18, 2019 - 03:12pm PT
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For what its worth.....and I'm a poster with about 45 full photo Trip Reports.....and I was afraid I'd be nuked because I had plenty of images in my Supertopo "possession" that weren't mine. I took the two hours or so to go through 3670 photos and delete the 40 or 50 that weren't mine. And now I'm pretty much squeaky clean and not at risk of being hammered. I used the "supertopo uploader" on all my TR's and that seems to be the only way to stay kosher with the whole system.
Really bummed for those that got smashed in this whole thing. Seriously tragic. But I'd love to encourage folks not to run. To stay and contribute moving forward. Its a good place for what it is and when this all settles I'd love to have the good guys stick around.
Scott
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 18, 2019 - 03:43pm PT
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"The Supertopo site won't collapse, and frankly is full of a bunch of has-beens living in a romantic California based past that was never reality. Who really cares about your photos over the long run?"
Goes to show nastiness on ST is not restricted to polithreads.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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Apr 18, 2019 - 03:56pm PT
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I’ll hang around Nita and Roy, been on this a LONG time and one thing I’ve learned in my “has been” old age in “romantic California based reality that never was” is change can be hard, but if you wait it out...it may be better in the long term! Browder...it was a reality, we lived it braj. I’ve done it right because so far I see, nothing of mine has been touched on this site. Nita, maybe I’ll see you at Facelift...”under a full moon by the water tank!”
Keep yer chonies on kids, ride it out and if you choose to leave, completely your right and choice.
Peace
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Apr 18, 2019 - 04:00pm PT
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hey there, say, nita...
oh yes, this part was very sad... i was surprised how fast things
disappeared... (though, i understand the concerns, and was glad to learn more, as to why)...
too much surprise, too fast:
I'm in the camp that this whole process was heavy handed and not enough warning/ time given to comply with new regulations. Tarbuster and a couple of others have stated the obvious.
and, tarbuster... (AS TO your 'help me out' post, on the
other 'linking images' thread:
i read your post... very well done, post, too...
(say, just say that RJ, got a chance to answer it too...
thank you for all your
years of sharing... and to so many others, due to your time,
and efforts, we LEARNED so much...
i sure hope folks stay... i sure hope we get the
high quality write-ups, on all those trips, and history...
nita! your right-on-the-mark, your lists and what helped the most--was getting to KNOW who-was-who, around here, for folks that wanted to climb
with others, or, MEET up with them...
i was able to meet a WHOLE table full, for lunch, once...
i will never forget-- it was wonderful...
and, f10 and his gal, came out to visit, on their state-wide trip!
things that were all due, to supertopo, and the willingness of
folks to share their lives...
yes, i sure hope folks, stay and 'replant' seeds...
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Apr 18, 2019 - 04:02pm PT
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hey there say,... ooops, i posted to many times... i thought
it DID NOT post...
i saw a weird looking string of letter, etc, and
thought i had DONE something wrong, :O
say, did that 'notice' happen to anyone else... ?
i had to go BACK to the forum page, to see if
this even posted??
odd...
wow, ron!
happy to see you...
i enjoyed seeing this... wish i could meet you someday, too...
thanks for all you have done...
YOUR QUOTE:
Apr 18, 2019 - 03:56pm PT
I’ll hang around Nita and Roy, been on this a LONG time and one thing I’ve learned in my “has been” old age in “romantic California based reality that never was” is change can be hard, but if you wait it out...it may be better in the long term! Browder...it was a reality, we lived it braj. I’ve done it right because so far I see, nothing of mine has been touched on this site. Nita, maybe I’ll see you at Facelift...”under a full moon by the water tank!”
Keep yer chonies on kids, ride it out and if you choose to leave, completely your right and choice.
Peace
nita! --still hoping to see you one day...
say, 'hey there' to matt, if you see him, around easter...
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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Apr 18, 2019 - 04:24pm PT
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Yeah Lizzy, same thing if I put something on, but it does post. Yeah, I’ve known Mark for decades, but would be good to have you out for one of the gatherings.
Peace
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 18, 2019 - 04:26pm PT
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Spot on, John!
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Rattlesnake Arch
Social climber
Home is where we park it
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Apr 18, 2019 - 04:39pm PT
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Just do it....
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i-b-goB
Big Wall climber
Nutty
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Apr 18, 2019 - 05:51pm PT
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[snip - copyright infringing image removed]
I took this picture, does it count?
[No, a picture of a copyrighted picture is still infringing. The infringing image has been removed.]
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 18, 2019 - 07:33pm PT
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Please explain this vis-a-vis copyright
Some of us are illegal
Some are not wanted
[Click to View YouTube Video]
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fCCgtRy5vYE
Song
Deportee
Artist
Ani DiFranco with Ry Cooder and Dan Gellert
Album
Woody Guthrie: At 100! (Live At The Kennedy Center)
Licensed to YouTube by
SME (on behalf of Legacy Recordings); LatinAutor - SonyATV, LatinAutor, UBEM, EMI Music Publishing, and 7 Music Rights Societies
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Apr 19, 2019 - 11:45am PT
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You know someone, somewhere messed up when the site loses a poster like DMT.
A forum's worth is nothing without its community. And in any community, there are usually a handful of "super-users" who really make it what it is. People like DMT.
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Chris McNamara
SuperTopo staff member
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 19, 2019 - 12:15pm PT
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Hi Forum,
I'd like to thank those of you who have helped us by taking the time to delete any copyright infringing photos you have uploaded. I know that takes time, and I very much appreciate you taking the time to review your uploads.
As many of you have suspected, we have been threatened with a potential copyright lawsuit, and while I'm not going to go into the particulars of that matter, I can tell you it is costing us considerably in time and legal fees, and has served as a wake up call for us to assure that SuperTopo has a rigorous copyright policy and that we take pro-active steps to avoid any copyright infringing images being hosted on our server.
We've seen hundreds of you take time to review your photos and delete any images that you don't own or have the rights to. Thank you! It is very important to us that there are no images on our servers that infringe on the copyrights of others.
Have You Checked Your Photo Uploads?
Some of you have not yet edited your photo uploads.
I'd like to ask those of you who have not yet carefully reviewed your photos to please do so in the next few days.
What Kinds of Photos Infringe on Copyrights?
Some people are not sure what kinds of photos infringe on other people's copyrights, so I wanted to provide a list of the most common kinds of infringing photos we've seen. This is not an exhaustive list, but is intended to help you know what kinds of photos are often copyright infringing:
Memes - these are typically based on copyrighted photos and need to be removed. If you don't own or have the rights to the photo a meme is based on, please remove it.
Celebrities - photos of celebrities, actors, politicians, athletes, and other famous people are typically copyrighted photos and need to be removed
Pro Photographer Photos - photos taken by professional photographers are almost invariably copyrighted and need to be removed
Photoshop and Derivatives of Copyrighted Images - modifying a copyrighted photo in Photoshop, or taking a photo of a photo doesn't give you the right to use it
Scans of Copyrighted Magazines, Books, or Articles - we can't have any scans of climbing articles, guidebook pages, or any other scans of copyrighted printed material on our server. I know this kind of content has been interesting and may have real historical or educational value, but it is nonetheless copyright infringing and needs to be removed
Cartoons - cartoons are fun, but also copyrighted materials, and need to be removed.
TV and Movie Images - images from TV shows and movies are copyrighted content and need to be removed
Inappropriate Images - There is no justification for posting inappropriate images on SuperTopo, which is intended to be a friendly environment for climbers of all ages. If you have uploaded any inappropriate images, please remove them. If you see any on the site, please help us by using the feedback link at the footer of every page to let us know about inappropriate content so we can remove it
As a reminder, you are solely responsible for your photo uploads. We do not condone, nor will we accept financial liability, for any member who uploads images or content to SuperTopo that infringes on the copyrights of others.
We ask you to review any photos you have uploaded to SuperTopo, and immediately delete any photos you may have uploaded if you are not 100% sure you own the rights to the image.
Should we discover copyright infringing photos on your account, all your photos will be deleted and wiped from the server as a protective measure, and your account may be de-activated.
Thank you for your help with this very important effort.
Sincerely,
Chris McNamara
Founder
SuperTopo
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Apr 19, 2019 - 12:27pm PT
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Jeez, Chris...I get the gist of what you need to do, but the upshot of this is so....boring.
What kinds of photos or images are acceptable?
If I take a picture of someone else and post it here, is it acceptable? I may have taken the picture myself, but the person in the picture hasn't provided their consent to use their image. What about images that have multiple people or crowds in the background?
It seems like pretty much any kind of product image or logo could infringe on this copyright issue. Isn't there some threshold where an image or graphic moves into a public realm, where copyright issues don't exist?
It's your website, and I tend to defer to the rationales that have been provided by you and RJ about why these restrictions need to upheld. But it sure is stripping away a huge part of the character of this place. Wasn't there any kind of softer approach to removing images (or how they are hotlinked) that could have been implemented?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Apr 19, 2019 - 12:33pm PT
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Here's an example:
[snip - copyright infringing image deleted]
Is this not acceptable? Are the LA Dodgers really going to object to using an image that clearly promotes their branding?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 19, 2019 - 12:42pm PT
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we have been threatened with a potential copyright lawsuit I feel horrible for you guys. I've been there.
However, I think you too will share my "machismo" attitude towards these losers and their parasite lawyers when you make it to the other side of this - as the winner - which you will.
My #1 piece of advice - notify your insurance, whether personal or otherwise, and get their lawyers involved. In most states they are required by law to provide defense, even if the policy does not cover the loss. Think about that. They deal with this sh!t and the people who bring it all day long every day.
Do NOT pay for any this out of pocket. You will absolutely go broke. Your own lawyer, no matter how much you like them, they need to eat and they're all entitled, it's lawyer culture. Let the insurance company deal with that aspect and keep a lid on it.
And frankly - if this person is advising you to gut your site in some diminutive response to being bullied - they sound weak and I don't like them.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 19, 2019 - 12:43pm PT
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Mr. McNamara:
Have You Checked Your Photo Uploads?
Some of you have not yet edited your photo uploads.
Very hard to do when they have all been deleted.
I was about halfway through and had deleted a number of questionable images, when they suddenly were all deleted without any warning.
Furthermore, no one here has presented a compelling, or any for that matter, explanation concerning how the ownership of the images in question was assessed.
How about providing one?
Whilst you have your thinking cap on, you might also want to explain why ST allows the embedding of Youtube videos of questionable ownership via the
[Click to View YouTube Video]
syntax.
Edit
it used to say
{YouTube=xxxxxxxx} but with square brackets []
This change must have just been implemented today
Embedding was allowed yesterday
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 19, 2019 - 12:56pm PT
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Historical images from more then a century ago that have not been copyrighted in modern times should be safe. If not, then that pretty much kills truly historical threads. Also, I understand using imagery or short excerpts for purely educational or critical purposes gives some leeway. Perhaps rj or Chris can elaborate.
Having to click links unfortunately sometimes takes one to images embedded in obnoxious advertising material. Photobucket, e.g. After a while you quit clicking.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Apr 19, 2019 - 12:58pm PT
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Chris/RJ - appreciate the explanations here and in the other related threads.
Turns out I had 1357 photos uploaded to ST over the years. Took about 30 minutes to go through and delete the 30 or so that I did not strictly own.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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Apr 19, 2019 - 01:02pm PT
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Hope you guys weather the storm and the accusations are fairly addressed in the easiest way. Thanks for your clarifications.
Peace
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Apr 19, 2019 - 01:03pm PT
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I hope this doesn't get him (her?) in trouble, but Marlow just posted another very interesting thread about an obscure historical person in climbing history. There is a photo of a line drawing of this historical person, followed by a Wiki excerpt.
Does this cross the threshold, too? Marlow's posts are incredibly unique and valuable, and add a dimension to climbing history that no-one else fulfills.
That line drawing must be at least 100 years old...and the Wiki description is....Wiki. How in the world can these be threatening to ST?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 19, 2019 - 01:27pm PT
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This latest missive from on high has some basis but is too restrictive. There should be some wiggle room between using photos of others that clearly should be their protected property and the following....
The above photo of me and friends from the NZ 1976 Torre Egger expedtition was taken at a party in Christchurch last year. I hadn’t seen these people in over forty years and someone honored our request to snap it. I don’t own the rights of the photo but I’m sure that whoever (I can’t remember who) complied with our request to shoot it would have no issues with it’s use.
If I can’t make simple judgements like that I am out of here as far as any photo input is concerned.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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Apr 19, 2019 - 01:30pm PT
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But Jim....is it YOUR camera that it’s taken with. Good to see you’re back safe from Patagonia again. Thanks for releasing The Bird there!
Peace
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seano
Mountain climber
none
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Apr 19, 2019 - 01:40pm PT
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Did you get a letter from Getty?
It seems like you should be able to claim DMCA safe harbor, but I am absolutely not a lawyer. Also, I'm not willing to hire one to figure out whether it's legal for me to post a photo here, so it's probably best that I stick to text.
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John M
climber
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Apr 19, 2019 - 01:40pm PT
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Done.. this is whats left.
[snip - infringing and inappropriate images removed]
Oh.. and I get an error message whenever I try to upload a new picture, so thats it for me.
.....
Edit: LOL.. well..That was quick. I have no pictures left.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Apr 19, 2019 - 02:05pm PT
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But Jim....is it YOUR camera that it’s taken with.
Doesn’t matter. If you paint with Monet’s brushes it’s your Water Lillys, not his.
Better tag it Creative Commons with restrictions or it’s CMack’s
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Apr 19, 2019 - 02:11pm PT
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Posting this photo: A transgression to be punished?
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 19, 2019 - 02:39pm PT
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Marlow:
Posting this photo: A transgression to be punished?
We aren't able to research the copyright history of that particular image or the more than 200,000 images uploaded on SuperTopo.
For an image like you posted above, we obviously don't know the history, and it is not practical for us to hire a team of people to try to research or chase down the legal copyright history of that specific image or any of the more than 200,000 individual images uploaded to the site.
We will remove images that are obviously copyright infringing (or that we believe to be infringing) as we become aware of them to reduce risk. As a result, no one should rely on SuperTopo as a repository for their photo library. That isn't a role the site is intended or able to serve.
Since you uploaded the image, I would assume you know if you own or have the rights to it. Our Terms of Service asks each member to assure that the images you upload to the site do not infringe on any copyright or other intellectual or property right of any party.
rj
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Apr 19, 2019 - 02:43pm PT
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Whatever you do, don't delete Marlow. Or you'll get this norski viking real pissed:)
Arne
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 19, 2019 - 03:00pm PT
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So mfm uploaded nearly one quarter of all the images on ST
Good work and stamina
I sure would like to meet the guru who judged all of his fotos
When he comes back on board maybe he can give an estimate of the number that he actually took with his very own camera
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 19, 2019 - 03:10pm PT
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BJ:
You clearly didn’t bother to look at the photo referenced.
Yes, I did. It would be nice if you would have your facts together before making accusations.
That photo was uploaded by Marlow. Not by Donini. It was Marlow who put in Donini as the Photo credit. The photo credit typed in by Marlow doesn't clarify if Marlow had the rights to the photo, and thus the question of whether the upload meets the Terms of Service requirements is open.
If I upload a professional photographer's image that I don't have the rights to use, that is an infringement. I can't get around copyright infringement simply by noting their name in the photographer's credit. I'd need to somehow have obtained the right to use a photo that is the copyright property of someone else.
zBrown:
So mfm uploaded nearly one quarter of all the images on ST
Mouse from Merced had uploaded more than 46,000 photos on to SuperTopo, 6x more than anyone else ever has.
He recently posted an inappropriate photo, which led to a review of his photo uploads. We found he had uploaded thousands and thousands of what we believed to be copyright infringing photos as well as some inappropriate photos. Thus, as a practical matter, we felt we needed to take action and remove all of his photos to both protect him, and SuperTopo LLC, from liability risk. We simply don't feel we can stand by and ignore a pattern of repeated copyright infringement. If we found just one or two photos that we felt were infringing we would simply remove those. But repeated copyright infringement, or similarly a pattern of inappropriate photos, will leave us feeling that we cannot afford to hunt through hundreds (or thousands) or photos to try to surgically remove offending images. That is why Chris has stated clearly several times:
Should we discover copyright infringing photos on your account, all your photos will be deleted and wiped from the server as a protective measure, and your account may be de-activated.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 19, 2019 - 03:18pm PT
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Rj
Begs the question(s)
What if someone has the permissions/rights to use a professional's or amateur's photo and he uploads it to ST and does or does not put the pro/am creator in the "credit" line?
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Avery
climber
New Zealand
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Apr 19, 2019 - 03:22pm PT
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I'm just going to delete ALL my threads.
I don't have the time to go painstakingly through them all.
As I said earlier I have permission to post around 90% of the photos on my threads. I now know this is not good enough for ST.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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Apr 19, 2019 - 03:22pm PT
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A question for RJ/Chris....is there some way of writing the “Terms” as to absolve you and/or the site from liability or legal action....such as, putting the burden on the person posting something that is open for legal action? I’m guessing this may have already been addressed by you guys. I get what’s going on, it’s just too bad so many great threads and photos had to be deleted, but I too would not want to be held accountable for others actions. Hope the waters calm down and things get back to less stress for all involved.
Peace
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 19, 2019 - 03:28pm PT
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Chaos and confusion is exactly what the plaintiff is looking for and banking on - and he is presently WINNING!
Man the fuk up boys. Leave the site as-is and post that demand letter as a news release and general FYI. Then get back to your business. Don't let this piss your life away.
He sued you personally Chris, is that what I've gotten between the lines? Call your homeowner's policy. I just googled "Duty to defend" in CA, and it looks quite favorable in your state. If you're paying out of pocket now for a lawyer, he isn't going to want you to know these rules.
Then call Vinnie!
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Avery
climber
New Zealand
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Apr 19, 2019 - 03:28pm PT
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BTW How do delete an entire thread?
I know if you delete the first post, the first page will disappear,
but what about the rest of the thread?
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 19, 2019 - 03:33pm PT
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ron gomez:
is there some way of writing the “Terms” as to absolve you and/or the site from liability or legal action....such as, putting the burden on the person posting something that is open for legal action?
Our terms have always done that (and still do today).
And, if we end up losing a copyright infringement lawsuit then we will very likely be forced to sue the person who uploaded the infringing images to recover our costs.
But, those terms are not sufficient to spare SuperTopo LLC from the real-time and costs required to rebuff or defend against a copyright lawsuit threat, even if that threat turns out to be without merit.
BJ:
Since nobody knows the history of every photo here just dump them all and close the doors.
I appreciate your frustration, but your comment is overstated.
The vast majority of photos uploaded on SuperTopo today appear to have fully complied with the Terms of Service.
Yes, in cases where someone has uploaded a photo that they don't have any right to use, it is a problem and it needs to be removed. But, it isn't the case that is the norm, and in most cases, it is quick and easy to resolve. Most people have uploaded only their own images. Several people who had uploaded more than 1,000 images have reported that going through their photos and deleting the handful that infringe has been relatively quick and easy to do.
I can understand this is a hassle. We don't like it either.
But, for most people, it is really not a huge deal: rather it is either a non-issue (since they didn't infringe on other people's copyrights) or a mild speed bump that they are quickly able to resolve.
As far as we can tell, there are only a few individuals who have had a habit of uploading images that violate the copyrights of others. For those people, it is a real situation, and in some cases, the simplest thing is to remove all images, which people can definitely ask for help with since we have a bulk image-upload delete tool for internal use here in those cases where individual photo deletion seems too overwhelming or impractical.
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DonC
climber
Bishop and Redlands
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Apr 19, 2019 - 03:48pm PT
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RJ – let’s take another example. Under your profile/photos you have an image with the credit being given to RD Caughon. Since it is still in your profile can we assume that RD has transferred ownership of the image to you, in writing, since that’s what is required to transfer ownership? If you don’t have ownership in writing, even though you give him credit, is this image in violation of the SuperTopo policy? Is this how this is suppose to work?
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Avery
climber
New Zealand
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Apr 19, 2019 - 03:49pm PT
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I HAVE TO ASK THE QUESTION AGAIN?
IF YOU HAVE DIRECT PERMISSION FROM THE AUTHOR TO POST HIS/HERS PHOTOS, HOW CAN THIS BE A PROBLEM?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 19, 2019 - 03:53pm PT
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“Seems to” isn’t “does”. Yes - it appears to me that uncertainty is the perceived money in the bank for the plaintiff.
Their goal is likely a "cost of litigation" settlement. It will be settled pre-trial over this uncertainty, even if everyone present knows it would lose badly in a for-real trial.
Fuking parasites.
But this is what insurance is for. Activate it and get back to your life.
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John M
climber
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Apr 19, 2019 - 04:03pm PT
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Avery.. the best I can figure is that your main problem is scans of articles. Most of your photos fall under the Donini exception posted earlier and explained by RJ.
Don't quote me on that, but thats what I see. If you want to save your threads, and I hope that you do, then maybe start by deleting all scans of articles.
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 19, 2019 - 04:04pm PT
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DonC:
Under your profile/photos you have an image with the credit being given to RD Caughon. Since it is still in your profile can we assume that RD has transferred ownership of the image to you
That is a great example, thanks for bringing it up, since it may help clarify things for lots of people.
No, I don't have "ownership" of the copyright to that image. (Not sure which one you are referring to, but here's an example from the Tetons below.)
But, as I'm sure you can understand, ownership of a copyright is not required to "own the right to use" which is really the relevant question.
I have the right to use that photo from RD. That's how we did it. I took photos of him with my camera and I provided him those images to use as he'd like. He took photos of me and did the same. And, of course, I provided him the right to use the photos I took of him on our climbs, and he did likewise. RD was one of my all-time favorite climbing partners and a very good friend. FYI, RD passed away climbing on Makalu some years ago, or I'd happily ask him to post up and confirm that agreement himself. Below is an image I took of RD on a climb we did of Cathedral Peak and Eichorn's Pinnacle:
That kind of arrangement is pretty common for climbers and other situations too (we're not all carrying selfie sticks), and that is perfectly fine from SuperTopo's point of view, and there is nothing in our terms of service that precludes that kind of thing.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Apr 19, 2019 - 04:05pm PT
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RIP- RD
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DonC
climber
Bishop and Redlands
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Apr 19, 2019 - 04:10pm PT
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Thanks RJ - but as I read the original post from Chris in this thread no where does he talk about the "rights to use", it says you must own the rights to the image. I think there is a difference?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Apr 19, 2019 - 04:18pm PT
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Help, Please ST Admin. I did a Thread in 2008 about two bouldering contests in honor of my husbands climbing. Can't find it and I had many photos on it. Pretty sure all the photos I posted were mine. Went through the nearly 600 photos I could find and the only problem I could see is I took a picture of a magazine cover/article, "Being Bachar". Should I delete it?
Fun to go thru all the pics....memories....what a blessed life I've had.
Edit: or maybe someone else can help me find it. I found it a while ago....
To much stuff going on....
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 19, 2019 - 04:22pm PT
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DonC:
I read the original post from Chris in this thread no where does he talk about the "rights to use", it says you must own the rights to the image. I think there is a difference?
Chris's post is brief and simply summarizes the Terms of Service, which is really the document that outlines the rules in more verbose and legal terms.
Chris refers to the Terms of Service, which is the legal document that is relevant. I'm confident that the intention of Chris saying "own the rights" is simply a short-hand way to clarify that people need to have the rights to images they upload, and to confirm their upload is in compliance with copyright law and will not violate the intellectual copyrights of others. People may "own the rights" because they literally own the copyright, or they may have the rights by other means.
The key section of the Terms of Service on this topic is obviously more verbose:
You agree not to post, upload to, transmit, distribute, store, create or otherwise publish or send through the Service any of the following:
User Content that is unlawful, libelous, defamatory, obscene, pornographic, indecent, lewd, suggestive, harassing, threatening, abusive, inflammatory, fraudulent or otherwise objectionable;
User Content that would constitute, encourage or provide instructions for a criminal offense, violate the rights of any party or that would otherwise create liability or violate any local, state, national or international law;
User Content that displays, describes or encourages usage of any product in a manner that could be offensive, inappropriate or harmful to SuperTopo or any user or consumer or that is contrary to any instructions or warnings relating to the product
User Content that may impinge upon the publicity, privacy or data protection rights of others, including pictures or information about another individual where you have not obtained such individual's consent;
User Content that may infringe any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright or other intellectual or proprietary right of any party;
User Content that impersonates any person or entity or otherwise misrepresents your affiliation with a person or entity;
Viruses, malware of any kind, corrupted data or other harmful, disruptive or destructive files or code; and
User Content that, in the sole judgment of SuperTopo, restricts or inhibits any other person from using or enjoying the Service or which may expose SuperTopo or its users to any harm or liability of any type.
Lynn L:
...the only problem I could see is I took a picture of a magazine cover/article, "Being Bachar". Should I delete it?
Yes, and thanks for asking. Other people may have similar questions.
Scans of magazines, guidebooks, or books are specifically one of the types of common copyright infringing images Chris flagged in his post today. Chris said:
- Scans of Copyrighted Magazines, Books, or Articles - we can't have any scans of climbing articles, guidebook pages, or any other scans of copyrighted printed material on our server. I know this kind of content has been interesting and may have real historical or educational value, but it is nonetheless copyright infringing and needs to be removed
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Apr 19, 2019 - 04:29pm PT
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RJ, I realize you are currently in the midst of dealing with the effects of this policy clarification & action, but do you really think these subtleties are going to be remembered by users into the future?
As you & Chris have described the situation, you probably don’t have a choice...but it sure doesn’t seem to bode well for the future of this place.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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Apr 19, 2019 - 04:31pm PT
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Thank you for your response! It sure helps that you are clarifying questions so we can move forward more informed and with an understanding where Supertopo is in all of this.
Peace
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 19, 2019 - 04:58pm PT
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Apogee:
As you & Chris have described the situation, you probably don’t have a choice...but it sure doesn’t seem to bode well for the future of this place
I think the painful issue is really climbing history content.
There are a lot of very high quality and interesting posts on the site with climbing history (For example, Steve Grossman's many awesome climbing-history posts).
The challenge we face now is that many of those posts are chock full (no pun intended) of copyright infringing material that creates a real liability for SuperTopo LLC.
It seems pretty clear that SuperTopo is just not a good home for this kind of climbing history content, which would be better hosted on something like Wikipedia that:
1. Has the resources, staff, and a process to properly do vetting of copyrights on images
2. Has a commitment to long-term sustained hosting of valuable historic information
The reality, more obvious to Chris and I now that it was a month ago, is that SuperTopo is simply not set up to be a good caretaker of this kind of important, valuable, climbing history content. Had we had the foresight to realize that years ago, we would have been pro-active in advocating that Steve Grossman, Fritz, Marlow, and others who have created amazing climbing history contributions here on SuperTopo post them instead on a site like Wikipedia that is set up for that kind of thing. I know Chris has been talking about figuring out a way to relocate posts of climbing historic value to the North American Climbing History Association that Steve Grossman is involved with, and I hope we can help make that happen.
I know Chris very much wants to figure out a way to get climbing history information that is on SuperTopo today relocated to a proper, sustainable, and long-term home elsewhere.
rj
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Apr 19, 2019 - 05:02pm PT
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Do you guys need contributions to obtain better legal representation?
I am sure some are willing.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 19, 2019 - 05:10pm PT
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Climbing history is a substantial issue for me, although I am more concerned with what happened a century ago than more recent developments. Nowhere can I find any problem with imagery and printed material that is that old and out of copyright.
Except for Getty, which seems to have a goal of copyrighting virtually all historical images. That's the death knell of efforts to illuminate the past on a site like this. Even on Wikipedia the ownership of images is a significant consideration. Try uploading one if you've not done so.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Apr 19, 2019 - 05:10pm PT
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RJ, Rather than Wikipedia, any way for some entity to set up a "one stop, hold all the content" non-profit website? That way everything would be in one place.
Deleting the Bachar mag image. THX.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Apr 19, 2019 - 05:13pm PT
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Wilbeer those are my thoughts exactly. Considering all the gofundme's that have been posted to this site, and many thousands of dollars raised for people who probably don't even know the website hosts. I'm sorry to hear that supertopo was threatened and blame whoever is doing it for all of this. Curious to know who made the threat, although obviously if that info is published, the problem gets worse.
Avery, they have answered your question, having someone else's permission to post their photos isn't enough. The reason why is, someone is threatening to sue them and they are trying to protect themselves. Whatever legal theories people have, that's the bottom line.
I've gone through the 150 pictures I had posted here, removed all the memes and a few pictures of peaks I got from Facebook. It's a further blow to the forum that youtube video's can't be embedded, but I understand the problem and sympathize very much with the hosts.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Apr 19, 2019 - 05:29pm PT
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I completely understand all of this. My long time climbing partner Thom ,is a now retired corporate lawyer,a real NY shark who lurks here a bit. He lives in New Mexico now.
He has related that ST probably has to adjust to these new law(s).
That said ,he also strongly recommended standing against such litigation.
He believes private entities,like forums should take notice,further infringement of liberties could follow.
These new laws establish a “bad outcome” precedence.
We know that takes money.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 19, 2019 - 05:36pm PT
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Where's that lawyer????
We'll take him on a climb that he'll never forget and he will mysteriously forget what he's lawyering about ..... :-)
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Apr 19, 2019 - 05:40pm PT
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Whoa....didn't think I had so many pics of books and mags etc. Think I'm clean now. Encourage everyone to clean up and help ST.
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 19, 2019 - 05:40pm PT
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Wibeer, Lynne, and Don:
Thanks for your comments.
There are a lot of ideas on the table, and one that I know Chris is seriously contemplating is the possibility of separating the web side of SuperTopo, including the forum and user-contributions to route beta, topo updates, trip reports, etc, that today live on the website, from the print and PDF guidebook business. In that scenario there is the potential to convert the web site of SuperTopo into a 501c3 non-profit with a mission to serve the climbing community, and goals of providing information/education etc. Chris has been funding the forum for a long time. Converting it to a non-profit could give it a separate life that does not create on-going liability risk for the guidebook business, and might open the door to potential re-vitalization and much overdue modernization of the site functionality fueled by member-support. It is quite possible that a non-profit SuperTopo.com (or .org), could unleash a new, better, and more broadly impactful era for the site. There is a lot of potential to crowd-source content in a way that is purely focused on benefiting the climbing community that could make a future 501c3 version of SuperTopo much more impactful that it is today. A non-profit might also be able to do things like displaying hot-linked images, under the broader fair-use protection afforded a 501c3 non-profit that has an informational/education mission; whereas that same approach seems prohibitively risky for a commercial organization like today's SuperTopo LLC.
What happens down the road is unclear.
But, this experience has certainly opened the door to rethinking what the website of SuperTopo is about, and broadened the creative space for imagining what it might be in the future.
That might bear unexpected fruit from the chaos and pain we are in the midst of today.
rj
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Apr 19, 2019 - 05:41pm PT
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It is a effen legal process to get that lawyer to climb ....lol
His wife is a better lawyer than him.
I like those ideas RJ,just saying, I have been operating a business since 82,avoidance of liability is part of a construction companies business plan.
And,thanks for the transparency.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Apr 19, 2019 - 06:02pm PT
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That's a very interesting direction, RJ- you describe some of the benefits such a direction might have for ST, but what are the roadblocks or challenges to it?
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Apr 19, 2019 - 06:05pm PT
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Less than there are right now I would bet.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 19, 2019 - 06:17pm PT
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Where's that lawyer???? Yeah, inquiring minds...
Outing the party now would inflame, outing them later would likely be outside confidentiality and non-disparagement clauses generally signed to close these things out. So outsiders will likely never know.
Seems like climbers?
I do know they are likely reading these threads and I would say what comes around goes around. The universe won't allow you to do something this damaging to an otherwise innocent group of people and not have it eventually come back to you.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 19, 2019 - 06:28pm PT
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Outing could result in libel damages because such action is clearly against the ST user agreement. Notifying shareholders of a lawsuit is a legal requirement, and if I was so curious and if this notice opened a court case, I could go get the names of the parties if not more. So no, you are not correct. You don't get to maintain your privacy when you file a lawsuit in a public court, and this is a good thing.
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 19, 2019 - 06:29pm PT
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BJ:
RJ uses the photo of Donini and his pals as being allowed
That is 100% incorrect.
Or, put more emphatically, "Dear God BJ, what the hell are you thinking?"
Please don't put those words in my mouth.
My entire point was the exact opposite.
You missed it. So please let me clarify. (And, please re-read what I wrote more carefully).
My point was that there is no reason to believe that Marlow's uploaded photo meets the SuperTopo Terms of Service simply because Marlow wrote in Donini's name as the photo credit. Marlow would need to actually have permission from the actual copyright owner to meet the Terms.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Apr 19, 2019 - 06:31pm PT
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I would describe some of these threads as oddly woven works of organic art. This draconian destruction should not happen. Emptied my photo bin earlier and contributed to the destruction of several threads. At some other sites I post on the poster often makes the statement 'If this is in copyright violation let me know and I'll take it down'.
Edited to add: This all seems backwards to me. Effectively we are being asked to prove we are innocent prior to posting a picture, rather than the 'accuser' proving guilt afterwards. It's really quite difficult to prove a negative. I suppose I should start looking to see if anyone has re-posted any of my owned content and then sue their ass; what a death spiral.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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Apr 19, 2019 - 06:43pm PT
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RJ, I feel for you...some people want to argue for the sake of argument. I saw that credit of photo was given, so job done. I would figure that is exactly why there is a place to credit the party OWNING the photo. Maybe I’m wrong, but that was my assumption years ago.
Peace
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 19, 2019 - 06:57pm PT
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Effectively we are being asked to prove we are innocent prior to posting a picture, rather than the 'accuser' proving guilt afterwards. Yes, exactly.
They obviously received an intimidating letter and have been intimidated.
Telling them to fuk off and go ahead and file the lawsuit is another possible response I’ve been party to. It’s a game I have no skin in as has been noted, but one I’ve played.
What is fair use again? Nevermind...
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Apr 19, 2019 - 06:57pm PT
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My good friend,Thom. My photo,exclusively. Good skier,graceful climber,average kayaker and ruthless,freedom fighting lawyer.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 19, 2019 - 07:00pm PT
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I'm not an intellectual property attorney, but, unlike most here, I actually have one on retainer. I've also done piles of research on my own, since my company lives and dies on intellectual property.
Chris and RJ, you seriously need to get a competent attorney who understands the safe harbor statute. From everything I've seen over the years on this site, including your instructions regarding copyright EVERY time a picture is posted to this site, it is my personal (not professional, but also not ignorant or stupid) opinion that you are being jerked around by a suit and should immediately file a motion for summary judgment citing safe harbor.
ALL you should need to do in the face of any copyright violation demand is to remove THE referenced violating content. End of story. No damages, and nothing more to come of it. Any suit after that is frivolous and should get instantly dismissed with virtually no cost to you.
And ask yourselves one question: If such were not the case, then how is YouTube not already sued out of existence? Instagram? Countless others?
You have repeatedly and explicitly warned against the posting of copyrighted material, and you have actively taken down that which you were directly aware of. I believe that that is the extent of your duty to copyright law.
The level of reactivity and, dare I say it, paranoia in the current purge is unfounded, imo. And I believe that an attorney who does intellectual property law for a living will be ready to play hard-ball with whatever idiot filed suit, and that for a minimal amount of money, because simply filing for summary judgment should be all it takes to end the charade.
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Apr 19, 2019 - 07:09pm PT
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The universe won't allow you to do something this damaging to an otherwise innocent group of people and not have it eventually come back to you.
Oh the naivety of that sentiment. Karma, much like this "god" that people like to trot out, takes entirely too many vacations. Watching for retribution when bad things happen to good people will leave you waiting for a long, long time. Life is capricious like that.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 19, 2019 - 07:19pm PT
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you are being jerked around Agree.
However, it would have to be a rather pitiful lawyer that would bring forward a case that could so easily be dismissed. They are probably leveraging the Forrest case mentioned up-thread and thus would likely be granted a hearing.
But yeah - 100% agree with the rest of your post.
I would call my insurance company and they'll do whatever they see fit - right after I called the plaintiff's lawyer on the phone (thus off the record and before I had a lawyer involved...) to try and resolve the matter in the first 5 minutes - and if that went south, and it always seems to for some reason when lawyers are involved - I'd say GFY - because it's your last chance!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 19, 2019 - 07:22pm PT
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Oh the naivety of that sentiment. I've seen it roll darn near 100%. I don't wait, I go about my life, the news someday seems to make its way to me. I'm a life is fair kind of guy.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Apr 19, 2019 - 07:32pm PT
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hey there, say, RJ... thank you kindly for sharing all this with folks, here, as to questions/answers... and future thoughts, etc...
thank you to chris...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 19, 2019 - 07:32pm PT
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The Forrest ruling is not relevant to this situation, so an attorney would have to be VERY pitiful indeed to try to leverage that. Even the so-called "server test" is a red-herring here.
SuperTopo is on the model of a YouTube or other site that allows users to post content. That is the safe harbor model, which is not applicable when a news organization chooses to directly publish the violating material themselves just because they found it on another site.
Under safe harbor, a content VENUE is responsible to copyright law only insofar as it diligently posts instructions about users not violating copyright law, AND it diligently removes any copyright-violating material it discovers or that is requested/demanded to be removed by the copyright owner. SuperTopo does everything required by law to fall neatly within the safe harbor provisions.
There is no apparent correlation with the Forrest ruling, and a competent attorney can make the relevant distinctions in the summary judgment motion.
Again, if such was not the case, giants like YouTube would disappear almost overnight! They would have already.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 19, 2019 - 07:36pm PT
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The Forrest ruling is not relevant to this situation I agree - but RJ seems to think it is and he's probably read the complaint.
And yeah - I also agree - this reeks of pitiful all around and in desperate need of an intervention.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 19, 2019 - 07:37pm PT
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Hey there say mad
You sound much better with fewer words
I know intellectual property attorneys who are verrry smart and accomplished
They would agree with your last two posts
Keep up the abbreviated, good work
Interestingly i just saw this tonight on an embedded video on another site
Privacy statement. This embed will serve content from facebook.com
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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Apr 19, 2019 - 07:51pm PT
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BJ......BOTH of those photos are credited to the apparent owner. I can’t read your mind....so i WAS referring to both/either photo to be clear. For gods sake.
I beg your pardoning for being so crass, I was purposely being vague since BOTH photos are given credit to, if you read and learn.
Funny how you feel I was singling you out since I didn’t mention your name....there are other that could fit, “some people want to argue for the sake of argument.” Your free to accept if you feel so inclined though.
Peace
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 19, 2019 - 07:55pm PT
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You sound much better with fewer words
It's easier when the points to be made are not complicated, AND when the points being made agree with most people's opinions already.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 19, 2019 - 08:25pm PT
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^ looks like maybe he gotcha, eh?
Anyway you two, RJ and Chris, have endured a lot of flac unnecessarily IMO
As the inimitable locker once declared
"It's great free entertainment"
Thanks for providing the venue
Edit:
Ghost that was my underlying thought. I think they both realize that now.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 19, 2019 - 08:34pm PT
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Anyway you two RJ and Chris have endured a lot of flac unnecessarily
Some of that flak could have been avoided if the whole thing had been handled a little more openly, but yeah, most of it is unnecessary.
Anyway, for whatever it's worth, I've gone through the 1,700+ photos that I uploaded over the years and deleted every one (about 200) I thought might cross any of the lines laid down at the top of this thread.
Also for whatever it's worth, I hope that this forum can now settle down and continue to be a great place for climbers to hang out.
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BBA
Social climber
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Apr 19, 2019 - 08:36pm PT
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I put up a few pages here and there through the years, but I went through them and added a statement regarding copyright status so there could be no mistake. It wasn't so hard and a lot easier than ranting.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Apr 19, 2019 - 09:39pm PT
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What amazes me is the diversity of posters actually agreeing on something-hah.
RJ + Chris, thanks for your attempt at transparency. A little late for sure, but how you deal with this now will make the difference in how this site goes forward.
Also, thanks for putting up with a bunch of folks for all these years.
It certainly is a sad thing to see some amazing content and contributors disappear.
I hope (butt am not holding my breath) that ST comes out better in the long run as a result.
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Hoser
climber
Vancouver,Rome
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Apr 19, 2019 - 10:01pm PT
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Also for whatever it's worth, I hope that this forum can now settle down and continue to be a great place for climbers to hang out.
Yup, saw this go down before elsewhere...lots pf people leave, new people show up...life goes on.
The site is indeed changed forever, forums in general are starting to fade anyways - just link to your blog if you are that keen for people to read your stories.
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Avery
climber
New Zealand
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Apr 19, 2019 - 10:26pm PT
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HOW DO YOU DELETE AN ENTIRE THREAD AND NOT JUST THE FIRST PAGE?
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fragglerockjoe
Trad climber
space-man from outer space
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Apr 19, 2019 - 10:41pm PT
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Jus let Werner choot em with his Santa Clause Hat on fer stalking me wit their camera.
Oh! Elizabeth, I think it's the big one.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 19, 2019 - 10:47pm PT
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RJ, you said:
BJ:
You seem to think I expressed an opinion on that [Donini] group photo.
I did not.
I didn't see that you did either: so what is your opinion/ruling on that group photo?
Is it supposed to be obvious? Were you thinking Jim was just messing with you so you didn't bother to answer? It looks to me like Jim cited tacit or implied consent to his use of the photo from the owner of the photo, at best. And I'm not even sure he knows himself who the owner of the photo actually is, technically speaking, yet he was there when it was taken.
Are we to presume he has the rights to the photograph because he asked someone else to take it for him? Or because they offered to take the photograph for him?
I swear, thinking about some of this stuff makes me feel like I have a skull about 4 feet thick.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Apr 19, 2019 - 10:54pm PT
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Interesting point Roy. I've taken quite a few pictures for hiking type persons with their cameras for holiday/travel photos. Do I own those pictures since I took them? They certainly never asked me for permission to view or use them.....they owned the cameras.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 19, 2019 - 11:08pm PT
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This is perhaps the most encouraging thing I've read from you, RJ:
The reality, more obvious to Chris and I now that it was a month ago, is that SuperTopo is simply not set up to be a good caretaker of this kind of important, valuable, climbing history content. Had we had the foresight to realize that years ago, we would have been pro-active in advocating that Steve Grossman, Fritz, Marlow, and others who have created amazing climbing history contributions here on SuperTopo post them instead on a site like Wikipedia that is set up for that kind of thing. I know Chris has been talking about figuring out a way to relocate posts of climbing historic value to the North American Climbing History [Archive] that Steve Grossman is involved with, and I hope we can help make that happen.
I know Chris very much wants to figure out a way to get climbing history information that is on SuperTopo today relocated to a proper, sustainable, and long-term home elsewhere.
And this:
There are a lot of ideas on the table, and one that I know Chris is seriously contemplating is the possibility of separating the web side of SuperTopo, including the forum and user-contributions to route beta, topo updates, trip reports, etc, that today live on the website, from the print and PDF guidebook business. In that scenario there is the potential to convert the web site of SuperTopo into a 501c3 non-profit with a mission to serve the climbing community, and goals of providing information/education etc. Chris has been funding the forum for a long time. Converting it to a non-profit could give it a separate life that does not create on-going liability risk for the guidebook business, and might open the door to potential re-vitalization and much overdue modernization of the site functionality fueled by member-support. It is quite possible that a non-profit SuperTopo.com (or .org), could unleash a new, better, and more broadly impactful era for the site. There is a lot of potential to crowd-source content in a way that is purely focused on benefiting the climbing community that could make a future 501c3 version of SuperTopo much more impactful that it is today. A non-profit might also be able to do things like displaying hot-linked images, under the broader fair-use protection afforded a 501c3 non-profit that has an informational/education mission; whereas that same approach seems prohibitively risky for a commercial organization like today's SuperTopo LLC.
You see, many of us have known for some time that this forum has become the de facto oral history repository of a giga-ton of valuable personal and interactive recollection and reflection. And we've been equally aware that having it here on this forum has been a liability, whether due to content deletions by you and CMAC, or by the eventual demise of the forum altogether. (And yet it has to be recognized and acknowledged that it was the very freewheeling format of this forum that encouraged the expression and collection of this incredibly valuable compilation.)
I truly hope you guys have some good (extensive) backups that can be accessed wherein you can transfer the entire contents of the forum to NACHA, even if just for cold storage so readers, writers, researchers, and historians can access the sum total of it in a focused search. And of course we'd like to see, we'd need to have that reflective of the state of the forum prior to the disabling of the [img] expression.
And specifically, as a writer and an interested party in the history of the era in which I arose, I would absolutely love to know whether or not you can go back to the point prior to having deleted all of Kevin Worrall's posts. We need a snapshot of the forum which includes his posts. Frankly, it would be advantageous to have a snapshot of the forum inclusive of, or restored with ALL deleted content.
Is that doable, RJ? Or potentially doable?
Apologies for another lengthy post. It's a real bitch being me, don't you know! (And reading me, I'm sure.) But it's how I roll.
– Roy
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ß Î Ř T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Apr 20, 2019 - 12:47am PT
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Apr 20, 2019 - 03:12am PT
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RJ, thanks for taking the time to explain the whole mess to us. I only wish we had known the general outline of it sooner. I do hope ST and the climbing community can establish a non profit archive for all the history on this site. I have duly gone through my photos and eliminated all that I do not have permission to publish.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Apr 20, 2019 - 04:59am PT
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Setting up a nonprofit is a good idea. I've set up many of them. The downside is that its another company that has to file tax returns, plus you have to keep proving the non profit status, ie that its financed by public support. But really not very hard to do. In the current situation, if people are publishing copyrighted material, and the owner(s) of the forum is deriving ad income from it, or using it to sell books or topos, it seems like there would be more liability.
I'm not a copyright attorney but I like the idea of a creative commons, or a wikipedia type format, which allows embedding images. I dont think you'll find copyrighted images on wikipedia - maybe someone can prove me wrong. On the other hand, nearly all the memes I see on facebook have some copyrighted image in them. Or "sharing" a news story with a copyrighted image. How does facebook have the right to do that? I have no idea.
JLP there is no such thing as an off the record conversation with opposing counsel. If you dont have a lawyer and talk to the other side, they will use it to try to screw you. "JLP admitted he had no evidence of ...." In fact, those kinds of communications are much more dangerous than what's filed in court, where you are protected by procedural rules and have time to respond in writing.
Anyway I'm glad to see the environment calming down and hopefully an even better platform will be designed. Maybe one like wikipedia where anyone can just edit it. Although, only the OP should be able to edit the story itself, the rest are just comments.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
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Apr 20, 2019 - 05:49am PT
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Madbolter's faith in a motion for summary judgment is highly misplaced. By the time you get to the MSJ stage in federal court you are at least six figures in the hole. That money doesn't come back even if you win. In many ways you "lose" when the complaint is filed regardless of the out one of the litigation. Awnsering the complaint costs four to five figures, easy.
With respect to the substantive law, I have an office next to an IP lawyer so I must know something! ST seems to be taking the position that it will not knowingly host copyrighted images, which
seems consistent with the law.
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 20, 2019 - 06:02am PT
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Roy/Tarbuster:
I would absolutely love to know whether or not you can go back to the point prior to having deleted all of Kevin Worrall's posts.
Unfortunately, there is no such ability. The site is relatively simple. When things are deleted, they are actually deleted, permanently.
This is another reason why important climbing history content should not be hosted here and instead relocated to a site like Wikipedia that is set up for that kind of content. We simply don't have the features or resources to properly host or preserve climbing history information. On the other hand, Wikipedia does have those kinds of features and resources available for free public use, today.
ß Î Ř T Ç H:
I'm not sure what your point is on the image you posted above, which appears to be a photoshopped image of a bunch of business partners. If you don't have or own the rights to that image, then please remove it as it would violate our Terms of Service. It doesn't appear it is in use anywhere but your post above.
Jan:
I do hope ST and the climbing community can establish a non-profit archive for all the history on this site.
My personal feeling is that climbing history information would still be better off on a site like Wikipedia, since their resources are vast, and they have the staff and infrastructure to manage information of a historical nature properly. A non-profit SuperTopo would still be challenged by resources, and the cost to duplicate what Wikipedia already has would be substantial. I think that in any scenario, the authors of content that has true climbing history value should relocate their contributions to Wikipedia. There is no reason to wait either. Wikipedia is ready and able to host that kind of historical content today.
Wikipedia and their stated mission is a very good fit for hosting climbing history info:
The mission of the Wikimedia Foundation is to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content under a free license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Apr 20, 2019 - 06:06am PT
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Just catching up with what’s going on...I like the idea of creating a forum non- profit. I nominate Roy McC for President!!!
I will finally have time tomorrow to go through my photos. I don’t think there is anything in there but I will check.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 20, 2019 - 06:22am PT
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If you dont have a lawyer and talk to the other side I strongly disagree. I will know more about the matter than anyone and I am in the best position to resolve it quickly and for the least amount if money. Communication is good, and after lawyers are involved you’ll likely be cut off. The mantra that lawyers billing 100’s an hour are the only ones capable of figuring the matter out is a joke - those guys fuk things up just as much if not more often. Also, for many reasons mostly ethical, there is no way in hell they’d mention that conversation directly in court.
That said it’s not for everyone nor for every case.
Another tidbit from my experience is that it’s not in the financial interest of the lawyer to efficiently resolve your matter, which can also be used against the person suing you.
this stuff makes me feel like I have a skull about 4 feet thick. Good law and the correct interpretation of it shouldn’t have this effect - is a sign from my experience.
IMO, all will be clear in a few months that everything was [mostly] fine and really only needed a few surgical interventions.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Apr 20, 2019 - 06:53am PT
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For this forum going forward, should we add a tag to our photos--if we choose--that gives credit for re-posting? As poster said, sometimes we "quote" the photo to make a point/joke/etc.
BAd
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Apr 20, 2019 - 07:57am PT
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Although it is after-the-fact for me it is helpful to see rj's clarifications. Yesterday I deleted those photos I had uploaded here which I thought might be a problem. I did it in a spirit of gratitude and sympathy for the site providers.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Apr 20, 2019 - 08:01am PT
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If you don't own the photo just hot link it from where the original is located.
[img]
[/img]
But it now simply redirects to the original location.... boring.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Apr 20, 2019 - 08:41am PT
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Wikipedia is an encyclopedia meaning that it's style is formal and academic complete with footnotes. It's good for a quick lookup to see the exact elevation of a Himalayan peak or who did a first ascent, although I've made corrections to a few of their articles. It also has a fair number of climber bios.
This is not the same however as the personal stories of how the ascents there and in the Valley actually were done, let alone the life style and philosophy of those accomplishing such feats. That is (or was) found only on Supertopo.
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Bushman
climber
Venus photo -taken by bushman
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Apr 20, 2019 - 08:49am PT
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Deleted all images in question from photo file in my settings. Hope that satisfies conditions required by the administrators. Trying to decide whether or not to have account/content deactivated/deleted but have mixed feelings about it.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 20, 2019 - 08:49am PT
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This is not the same however as the personal stories of how the ascents there and in the Valley actually were done, let alone the life style and philosophy of those accomplishing such feats. That is (or was) found only on Supertopo. Yes, Jan: exactly so!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 20, 2019 - 08:52am PT
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I would encourage you to leave your content intact, Tim. You've put up so much good stuff!
But if you were to delete it, I'd certainly understand, and I've never begrudged anyone for doing it.
I've spoken with a few people off line who asked that their accounts be struck clean. Once they decide for themselves that it's the way to go, out of perspective, and respect, I always wholeheartedly support it as a highly personal choice.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Apr 20, 2019 - 08:55am PT
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How is ST handling this sort of image?
Public domain images of high quality.
You can find thousands of high quality public domain images on Pexels. The search function below allows you to search for various keywords and images of all kinds of topics. Since the public domain images on Pexels are all licensed under a creative commons zero license you can download and use them for free even for commercial purposes.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 20, 2019 - 09:03am PT
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By the time you get to the MSJ stage in federal court you are at least six figures in the hole.
Please cite your sources for this claim.
In point of fact, MSJ can be filed even prior to discovery. It can be filed at any time, including five minutes after the suit was filed. In point of fact, it's a timed game to file, with the emphasis on quickly, as you have no more than 30 days after the end of discovery. But sooner is better, and there is no general limitation on how quickly you CAN file a MSJ (some local court rules affect this, so I'm making a general statement).
So, please explain in detail how you're out six figures within five minutes on a safe harbor MSJ.
Awnsering the complaint costs four to five figures, easy.
Again, cite your sources for this claim. It is true that many attorneys will TRY to milk a case for all they can. It's how they make a living, after all. But I've referred to a COMPETENT attorney. A COMPETENT attorney will not "answer the complaint" and charge a mint in an obviously safe harbor case. S/he will simply file the MSJ citing safe harbor.
ONLY if that is denied and the whole response/discovery phase ensues will you start to be out the big bucks. But in that case, you're pretty screwed anyway, because it never should have gotten that far. If it is a clear-cut safe harbor case, and you have a competent attorney, it almost certainly won't.
Competent attorney, remember. S/he is going to tell you within ten minutes that yours is either a clear-cut safe harbor case or it isn't. If it's not, you're screwed. But in the case of SuperTopo, it certainly is, as SuperTopo is clearly a "provider" in the same sense as YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, and countless others.
Now, all bets are off if the site was directly publishing copyrighted material, in which case the Forrest ruling would come into play. So, for example, if the site owners are themselves publishing copyrighted material (e.g., "old," scanned articles), then EVEN IF THERE IS NO COMPLAINT regarding THOSE materials, the site is almost certainly going to lose the safe harbor defense to a suit regarding other materials.
With respect to the substantive law, I have an office next to an IP lawyer so I must know something!
Yeah, that says a boatload.
Regardless, a non-profit with Wiki type format does seem the way to go.
Regarding the Facebook question above from Don Paul, that has been my point all along. Safe Harbor is a provision that protects venue providers, not just ISPs, from liability regarding what their USERS post... assuming that the provider complies with some basic thresholds of responsibility, just as SuperTopo HAS done all along. That's why the PLATFORM isn't sued out of existence for what it's USERS do!
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Bushman
climber
Venus photo -by bushman
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Apr 20, 2019 - 09:20am PT
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the gutting of supertopo
I woke up one morn
to the gutting of supertopo
wringing my hands
I cried uhoh and ohno
some were chopped by the ax
some fled and some stood
to protest in defiance
as predicted they would
standing at the sidelines
I carefully considered
all options to be weighed
as the vine dried and withered
so now sets the sunset
come the reaper or harrow
leaving only the sunrise
to reveal what’s tomorrow
at the outset were family
where some friends stood as one
then the world became fractured
and some ties were undone
but life shall go on
least outside of this form
remembering the real world
to return to the norm
So either way, it’s all good 👍🏼
Thanks Roy, no hurry no worries,
-bushman
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 20, 2019 - 09:29am PT
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Awnsering the complaint costs four to five figures, easy. Telling someone over the phone to go pound sand is free!
You guys are in la-la land. This case gets passed to insurance while the plaintiff has no such luxury - so there better be a pile of cash and high odds of getting it - but there isn’t - so this case isn’t going anywhere.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 20, 2019 - 09:40am PT
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^^^ Also a very good and important point.
It's pointless to argue the technicalities of filing for summary judgment and what it might, in some theoretical world, cost.
This site's owners have decided that they are extremely risk-averse, which is their right. I assert that they need not be so risk-averse and that SuperTopo could continue indefinitely on precisely its present model. But that "could" has no normative force, and I do not imply any!
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Apr 20, 2019 - 09:54am PT
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This is another reason why important climbing history content should not be hosted here and instead relocated to a site like Wikipedia that is set up for that kind of content. We simply don't have the features or resources to properly host or preserve climbing history information. On the other hand, Wikipedia does have those kinds of features and resources available for free public use, today.
But RJ, Chris specifically told us (in writing) that all the historical content was safe and sound. This was about 2012 or so, I have pulled it up several times but don't know where it is at the moment. In essence he said 'many of you have asked about all the historical content, is it safe? Rest assured it is very secured. we have expanded our server capabilities and take the job of storing it very seriously'. blah blah blah
Not mincing words there, that was indeed the honest to gawd promise from CMac.
So what gives with that? Can you just answer that question without sounding like a lawyer?
Arne
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 20, 2019 - 10:15am PT
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ionlyski:
Chris specifically told us (in writing) that all the historical content was safe and sound. This was about 2012 or so
I can't speak for Chris, but I can assure you that Chris is an honest and straight-forward person.
I am confident he meant exactly what he said in 2012 (although I'm not personally familiar with the post you refer to).
But, that doesn't mean he'd say the same thing today.
My personal point of view is that this experience has proven to us all that SuperTopo does not have the functionality or resources to serve as a suitable long-term home for important climbing history information. We are not set up to be able to assure any content on this site is preserved in the manner climbing history content deserves. And, we never have been.
We simply have no way to do some of the key things Wikipedia offers such as a reliable and secure technical infrastructure, processes and people to do proper vetting of content, copyright right validation systems in place -- both people and technology -- that assure no copyright violating content is posted on Wikipedia. We have no ability to flag certain content as "historic" and thus provide it special handling even if the author requests their content be removed, or if we decide to do the same. And, it would not be surprising if some of the content that is perceived as historic at first blush was revealed to be based in part on copyright infringing material that would need to be removed when looked at through the lens of careful inspection.
The authors of historic climbing content posted on SuperTopo should please take steps to relocate it somewhere else soon since it cannot really be assured of long-term viability here. If we didn't realize that a month ago, or 7 years ago when Chris made the comment you refer to, we certainly realize it today. SuperTopo has just never been designed or resourced to provide a safe, sustainable home for climbing history content. I think that good intentions need to give way to the reality that climbing history, and the proper vetting and preservation of that climbing history, begs for more functionality and resources than SuperTopo is able to provide.
On the other hand, the Warren Harding page seems like a great example of how Wikipedia can serve the purpose of capturing climbing history very well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Harding_(climber);
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 20, 2019 - 10:29am PT
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I can assure you that Chris is an honest and straight-forward person.
Absolutely no doubt about that but the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Apr 20, 2019 - 10:44am PT
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RJ:
If I upload a professional photographer's image that I don't have the rights to use, that is an infringement. I can't get around copyright infringement simply by noting their name in the photographer's credit. I'd need to somehow have obtained the right to use a photo that is the copyright property of someone else.
There is NOTHING about this statement that is correct. NOTHING.
You keep commenting, RJ, about copyright infringement, although you clearly don't have any idea of the legalities of the situation. This is troubling, as THIS IS YOUR BUSINESS! As a professional author that publishes monthly, I'm quite familiar with the subject. However, as has been previously mentioned, an attorney who specializes in Intellectual Property would do you a lot of good.
Suffice it to say that there is a very important part of copyright law that allows the use of even a professional photographer's image, without their permission. legally. without breaking copyright law.
Lets look at the words of the US Govt on the issue:
Fair use is a legal doctrine that promotes freedom of expression by permitting the unlicensed use of copyright-protected works in certain circumstances. Section 107 of the Copyright Act provides the statutory framework for determining whether something is a fair use and identifies certain types of uses—such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research—as examples of activities that may qualify as fair use.
https://www.copyright.gov/fair-use/more-info.html
And yet, you reject the actual law, in favor of your own "law", in which you contradict yourselves over and over again (Title of this thread: "Please do not upload images you don't own on SuperTopo", while in this thread, you, personally, state that is perfectly fine, "if you have permission".)
You state that your pictures of you by your dead climbing partner are ok, because you say they are. You say that he gave you permission to use them, and I don't doubt that. However, you are NOT the copyright owner. That passed to his heirs upon his death, not to you, and the lawful owners might have a different opinion at this time. You have no written evidence that you've provided that he gave you permission, and you can't get it from him now! However, it is TOTALLY FINE for you to use these pictures under "Fair Use"!!!!!
I have not yet seen a photo on this site that violates copyright law.
You might consider that accusing someone of committing a criminal act that they have not committed is problematic, and that taking an action against them based on that incorrect assumption is a much bigger issue.
I also take you and Chris at your word: you have not been sued, you have only been threatened with a POSSIBLE suit. Your words. So all I have to do is have a scumball attorney write you a letter that you are violating some obscure publishing law you don't really understand, that you have violated by allowing people with the letter "A" in their names to post, and you will respond by removing every such person from your customer base??
Don't be those manipulated guys. Be the adult in the room.
Attorneys on this Board, stand up and be counted!
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Apr 20, 2019 - 10:54am PT
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In the United States (where the Commons servers are located), consent is not as a rule required to photograph people in public places.[2] Hence, unless there are specific local laws to the contrary, overriding legal concerns (e.g., defamation) or moral concerns (e.g., picture unfairly obtained), the Commons community does not normally require that an identifiable subject of a photograph taken in a public place has consented to the image being taken or uploaded. This is so whether the image is of a famous personality or of an unknown individual. "
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Photographs_of_identifiable_people
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 20, 2019 - 11:03am PT
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Ken M:
Thanks for chiming in on Fair Use. The problem with Fair Use, which as you know is part of the law and also a common defense against infringement claims, is that it is not clear cut, and thus interpretation of whether it applies may be subject to debate. That kind of debate can result in litigation, to determine in a court of law whether Fair Use applies on a case-by-case basis, which can mean a significant expense in time and money for a small organization like SuperTopo. We'd much prefer to avoid that kind of potential litigation cost, and simply don't see why the mission of the SuperTopo Forum, to provide "a resource for climbers of all skill levels and experience to get information about climbing and climbing destinations" demands that the site incur that kind of litigation risk.
I should make it clear that Chris is not asking for your legal advice, or for a debate on what the site's terms of service should be.
You are welcome to start your own website and set whatever policy you want to on your own site. But, if you post here, then please follow our Terms of Service and guidelines as they exist here. If you don't like them, that is OK, just don't post here.
It seems clear that Chris has outlined a more conservative position than you might choose for your own site. The policy here is based on the idea that people post only content they own or have rights to, and which does not "infringe any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright or other intellectual or proprietary right of any party."
What Chris has asked of people on this site is perfectly reasonable, even if the rules are different on other sites. If you post here, you need to confirm you agree to and will follow, the terms of service in place here.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Apr 20, 2019 - 11:16am PT
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RJ: I have posted a lot of articles from old climbing magazines, articles which are from 75 to 5 years old. I have taken photos page for page and then posted them on different threads to fill out history, as examples articles covering Bonatti, Buhl, Destivelle, Edlinger and Hill. Should they be deleted?
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 20, 2019 - 11:31am PT
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Marlow:
I have posted a lot of articles from old climbing magazines, articles which are from 75 to 5 years old. I have taken photos page for page... Should they be deleted?
I'm sorry, but the answer is unfortunately yes.
Scans of magazines, guidebooks, or books are specifically one of the types of common copyright infringing images Chris flagged in his post yesterday.
Chris said:
- Scans of Copyrighted Magazines, Books, or Articles - we can't have any scans of climbing articles, guidebook pages, or any other scans of copyrighted printed material on our server. I know this kind of content has been interesting and may have real historical or educational value, but it is nonetheless copyright infringing and needs to be removed
I would love to suggest you relocate that kind of historical content to Wikipedia, but frankly I don't think it meets their criteria for posting images either (and they do allow a very narrowly defined subset of Fair Use that we do not, but I don't think what you describe meets even their requirements).
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 20, 2019 - 11:38am PT
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Suggestion for everyone - do a show all, then PDF it, then put the PDF on a file share and link to it in the first post.
I have acrobat pro on my machine, so I'm not certain, but it appears Chrome also has a save-as PDF built in - and I just checked, it does.
EDIT - using a combination of the javascript hack presented a few days ago to display linked images - and Chrome Save As PDF - I created a PDF of the Classic Ice Primer thread - 633 Supertopo pages - converted to 278 PDF pages - all in about 1 minute. It looks perfect. Just a few deleted photos that there's nothing one can do about.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Apr 20, 2019 - 11:56am PT
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RJ, presumably, you want to be considered reasonable.
I accept that you are not interested in my "legal advice", such as it is.
I guess that it does not seem reasonable to me, that a policy is put into action that is not supported by law, and that you are unable to make the very simple statement "our intellectual property attorney has advised us to take this course of action". Attorneys working outside their area of expertise tend to be highly conservative, and tell you to do every thing possible to reduce your risk. You will find them telling you not to publish guide books, and not to do anything that encourages anyone to climb, and to not climb yourselves. Feel free to follow their advice.
People can *threaten* lawsuits all day. It doesn't mean they follow through, because knowledgeable attorneys know that they tend to lose money if they follow through on a "loser" case.
You guys are coming across as tools of someone manipulating you to damage your user base. Who benefits from that?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 20, 2019 - 11:59am PT
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You guys are coming across as tools of someone manipulating you to damage your user base. Yes - and they will be discovered and questioned about it in person - eventually - it's inevitable.
For now it just plays out, we're obviously not in control.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 20, 2019 - 12:00pm PT
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I have acrobat pro on my machine, so I'm not certain, but it appears Chrome also has a save-as PDF built in.
It does. I've been saving entire threads in PDF for a while using Chrome.
Start with the menu in the top right corner of the browser with three vertical dots, i.e. "Customize and control Google Chrome".
Then, in the drop-down: click print> destination> save as PDF>save
(You have to select save as PDF in the drop-down off of destination)
Sometimes I save threads as a complete webpage, also off of Chrome. I do this when I want active links to be saved. The problem is, if the browser stops being supported, that archive probably won't work any longer. PDF is more static. Whereas the full webpage archive format is active.
Start in the same drop-down, then: more tools> save page as> webpage complete>save
I have encountered a problem saving pages to PDF: sometimes depending on whether or not there is a scrollbar because someone has blown out the sidewall of the page with a large picture, than the PDF won't capture all of the text on the Supertopo thread.
At least I think that is the culprit of that error. So you have to check your work!
.....................................
Question, RJ: do those screenshots violate your rules?
Not even kidding here. Just want to be in compliance.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Apr 20, 2019 - 12:12pm PT
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Just testing
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 20, 2019 - 12:13pm PT
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Question, RJ: do those screenshots violate your rules? I would say at this particular moment, you don't ask and he doesn't answer. Maybe when things cool these PDF's get placed somewhere everyone can access them. Meanwhile, as long as it's not child porn, what gets stored on your computer is nobody's business.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 20, 2019 - 12:16pm PT
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Sorry, JLP:
I meant the actual screenshots of my process as posted in those uploaded "photos" in my tutorial.
To your other point: hell yes, baby, as long as it resides on my computer, that sh#t is all mine! Just like all the porn and malware that I download!
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 20, 2019 - 12:45pm PT
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It appears to me that the definition of ownership has drifted lately.
Will say why later.
I gotta go meet Tonto.
Too far from shore? Ask Hank.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QvGjdu7_8E
Whatever you do, avoid that lost highway, eh?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCgicPdsxxg
say there hey tB
Thanks for the Chrome tip. I did not know that.
I now only have to solve the multi-page display I want to get that does not have the "show all" option.
Have experimented a little with one product.
Will let ya know.
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A Essex
climber
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Apr 20, 2019 - 12:58pm PT
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isn't it 4/20 somewhere?
way too serious in here
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 20, 2019 - 01:00pm PT
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I'm looking to cut through the technical debate here and arrive at a practical solution that will actually work long term to keep SuperTopo what it has been for us.
Clearly, the present owner(s) and staff don't feel that the bang-for-buck exists at present, which leads to significant risk-aversion. Whether that is technically justified or not is beside the point! So, to my mind, making the bang-for-buck a viable proposition is the point.
The biggest issue, I believe, concerns money. The present resources (processing, bandwidth, storage, security, etc.) are not adequate to handle everything that SuperTopo has become. This is actually a very common problem; sites become more popular than their founders planned for, and there was no solidly-informed scaling plan or monetization path in place.
Fortunately, it's not that expensive to upgrade the infrastructure, and it's easier to monetize a successful site than to make a site successful in the first place. And let me be explicit about this next point!
ANY site that proposes to be a "historical site" that does not have a CLEAR scaling and monetization plan in place is NOT a long-term archive! And people that care at all about the archive being viable long-term should have confidence in that scaling and monetization plan! Otherwise, the "historical record" you think you are contributing to in some particular venue is likely to not last even as long as SuperTopo has.
It is my belief that SuperTopo already is the perfect venue to become that viable "historical archive" and that monetization is both possible and will provide the resources necessary to produce a genuine archive.
A subscription model with tiers would be very helpful on a number of fronts. There are countless possible approaches. Here's just an initial suggestion.
* Lurking is free, obviously.
* Posting privileges cost, say, $5 per month. After that initial membership, TR posts are free. For general forum posts, the site charges something like $0.05 per post. This sort of approach has countless advantages, not the least of which is keeping the riff-raff from posting to the general forums. And drive-by, snarky posts would actually cost the person enough to be self-limiting in most cases.
* NO anonymous accounts! Period. Subscribers can ALWAYS see the verified full-name of other members. A large part of the "tone" on many threads emerges from the safety anonymous people feel to say things that they would almost certainly never say around a real campfire. And then, people saying actionable things in their posts would have real personal liability.
That's a start, and I know that paying $5 per month and the incremental amounts for engaging in a conversation I care about is a non-brainer. And I would much appreciate the "maturity" that would naturally emerge on a forum where people had to care enough to PAY (and be personally accountable) for their posts.
Moreover, some proposals for a "historical archive" that have emerged over the years are troubling insofar as the principle people have clear axes to grind, which means that the "history" will be tainted by bias, both in terms of what gets posted and in terms of how it is commented upon.
Moreover, some of the these same people have been among the most flagrant copyright violators on this site, a fact I have repeatedly called them on, to no avail. Posting hundreds of scanned, copyright-violating articles does NOT make you a "historian," and it opens your "historical site" to being sued out of existence almost immediately, as you can no longer appeal to safe harbor! So, nobody should believe in the long-term credibility of a "historical site" that is run by people who have evidenced long-term commitment to violating copyright (or have demonstrated long-term ignorance of how copyright even works).
The huge advantage SuperTopo presently has over every other alternative, imo, is that its history emerged organically, which just is credible by nature, as the very process allows for the whole community to engage in the discussion of what that history really has been, what it means, and produces NEW history in virtue of the very shared meanings that get attached to the stories as they emerge.
These are just my thoughts, and I don't have any particular commitment to any of these ideas (other than that committed copyright-violators have NO business claiming to be "historians" and trying to float "archives"). I would personally like to see SuperTopo remain the venue that it has been, and I have NO problem putting my money where my mouth is, both in terms of occasional large donations and monthly subscription fees.
I find Chris to be a credible and basically non-biased person to "own" such a venue, and I have NO problem contributing to the upgrades necessary to keep this site alive in as close to its present form as possible.
Now, the most obvious objection to a model of this sort is of the form: "But I [or person x] won't/can't pay a subscription fee just to engage in conversations, so that sort of model will severely limit the people who can/will contribute, thereby limiting the 'archive' that the process could produce."
My response is: Consider it a contribution to the historicity you claim to care about. And the "contributions" of the riff-raff have PROVED to be one of the primary problems in keeping this site viable. It is a RARE person who can't afford $5 or $10 a month for something that supposedly matters to them. Cut back on the smokes a bit or one six-pack a month, and you've got it covered. LOL
Just some ideas. Now, I sit back, relax, and prepare to be ripped on.
:-)
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 20, 2019 - 01:37pm PT
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I do this when I want active links to be saved. The PDF’s I generated through Chrome had working links embedded. Saving the HTML is considerably more fragile and less portable, I think.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 20, 2019 - 01:45pm PT
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More fragile and less portable: absolutely.
I'm going to run a dbl check and make a PDF of a thread with links right after I get back from lunch.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 20, 2019 - 01:47pm PT
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Hi Roy:
Pardon me, but is that the cat that chewed your new shoes?
I have saved three versions of the thread I was interested in.
Web complete
Web archive
PDF
How is fragility/portability being assessed here?
Thanks in advance and the $5 is in the email.
Money don't get everything it's true
But ...
you know the drill...........
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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Apr 20, 2019 - 01:57pm PT
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plus ça change, plus c'est la męme chose..
Soon we will re-invent (electronic) libraries and librarians, and pay them to keep historical records for us. And perhaps also re-invent journalism, so that someone can watch, filter, and somewhat cogently report on current affairs. The former being in effect what MB1 suggests. Although there are places where much has been and is being kept - libraries (public, private), Alpinist, Rock & Ice (sometimes), Ascent, the various alpine journals, some guidebooks, campfire stories that grow in the telling. Even Wings of Plywood...
But ultimately, it takes money, time, and skill to do that kind of work. And a lot of judgment. And accountability - crowd editing has serious issues in that regard.
A relevant story, to illustrate dangers. A friend is quite involved in search and rescue. He was on a search, where they lifted someone with a helicopter. He and someone else took virtually the same photo of the scene. The other fellow’s was published in news reports on the search. My friend posted his to his personal page, or maybe FB. Next thing you know someone is pestering him for payment, on the basis that it belonged to the newspaper. (Which probably didn’t pay for the one it did publish…) Luckily my friend is a serious tech geek. First he was able to track down the source, contacted the newspaper, and found that there wasn’t a clear relationship between the two. (A sort of bounty hunter, maybe?) And, of course, could prove that he took his own photo, even if it seemed the same.
A local community centre made the mistake of advertising a family event on the internet, mentioning a popular childrens’ movie that would be shown. Next thing you know they’re being pestered by some copyright troll. In fact, they now regularly get anonymous calls, trawling for information about events and what they might be showing. Even though they are registered and pay all licence fees.
Presumably one can now put out a crawler that trolls the net – legitimately or not – looking for images that are or might be or which you can bully the host/poster into believing aren’t theirs, and either removing or paying.
The current US president is a notorious litigation bully. It's a modern affliction, although in his case eventually the rule of law will bring him down. Copyright trolls and bullies are another matter. It's not hard for them to start proceedings, perhaps in another state, and even get a judgment and try to enforce it. Defending can get costly, very quickly. And it only takes a demand letter to open Pandora's box. Sure, all the barracks lawyers grumble - but you're not the one receiving the demand letters.
I agree with MB1 that posters be required to positively identify themselves, that is to say provide a real name, address, telephone, and e-mail to the forum. However, as long as they do that, and know that at any time they can be 'outed', I'm ok with people using noms de plume. Sometimes there's good reason for doing so.
Must be a terrible nuisance for Chris and RJ, but at some point they had to pull the plug. Those who have resorted to insulting (or worse) our hosts owe them an apology.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Apr 20, 2019 - 02:03pm PT
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I have now deleted a lot of articles - many Bonatti, Buhl, Desmaison, Destivelle, Edlinger, Heckmair, Hill, Kurtyka, Grandes Jorasses, Fontainebleau, Welsh climbing and so on. This has left some threads in a poor condition...
In the future we will have a copyrighted history owned by the Trumps, Berlusconis, Putins and Kim Jong Uns of the world. Everyone posting outside copyrighted history will be followed by their lawyers and lose in court... The media will be their choirboys and -girls...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 20, 2019 - 02:07pm PT
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I'm ok with people using noms de plume. Sometimes there's good reason for doing so.
I totally agree! My point is only that the "handles" be inexorably linked to verified personal information (such as what needing to pay with a credit card would provide). I think that we're saying the same thing.
But it sounds just upthread like Chris is not interested in monetizing this site in the way that would be necessary to make it a viable archive.
The big hurdle to starting up a new site on a subscription model is that it doesn't have the name/reputation/traffic to start up on that model. You can monetize a site like SuperTopo in ways that you can't effectively with a brand new site.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Apr 20, 2019 - 02:36pm PT
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Man, all of this is about as disillusioning as C4 going into a lottery system.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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Apr 20, 2019 - 02:41pm PT
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The announcement said that they'd try a lottery system, from late May to early September. When most occupants of Camp 4 are the general public. It seems worth their giving a try, although I suggest that it include at least some period when most occupants are climbers, to see how it works with that user group.
The bigger issue, as John Eleazarian regularly reminds us, is that there is 50% as much camping on the Valley floor now as there was in 1996.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Apr 20, 2019 - 02:44pm PT
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Totally agree, Anders!
Tarbuster, you the Dude!!! Thanks for the link. For obvious reasons it has a special place in my heart as does Your Tuolumne Thread. Is that saved?
apogee, maybe part is due to the fact that despite our crazy threads, the threads with fantastic content have multiplied greatly here on ST. We need to grow with it. I don't have the skills to set up a new site for climbing history, but someone here is and I know many of us would help.
T
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Apr 20, 2019 - 03:47pm PT
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I deleted 24 photos out of 391...
Had some nice memories of climbing trips with friends as I was scrolling through.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 20, 2019 - 03:52pm PT
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You guys are vastly underestimating the man-years it took to build this site and the world-wide reach it's attained and what that's brought to the forum.
When piquaclimber's thread reached 1000 posts, it was such a challenge, such a big deal, now we have several threads 20x that. That volume and reach is where the real history has come from.
Some PDF's of the past will get linked to at some point and that will be that.
There are plenty of forums as an example that require an admin approval for a user name. Discussions there are generally a bore.
Nobody is going to give up a CC nor even pay money.
What makes things lively and relevant is an ability for everyone to speak their minds w/o concern for getting e-stalked.
I've been on the net longer than most, and I've seen it all over the years, up to and including a user getting punched out in front of their own house by someone they didn't know.
Piquaclimber, for example, received personal threats against him and his family for his desert TR's showing routes people didn't want everyone to see - and thus he is no longer here - at least not that I know of...! If it can happen to someone that kind and considerate, it can happen to anyone else with a real and unique voice.
True trolls, really, the Burch's of this world, are generally a minor issue.
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A Essex
climber
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Apr 20, 2019 - 04:41pm PT
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don't underestimate Burchy, that dude has the crazy eye
can't REI or Pattagucci buy this place, to deal with the legal this and that?
How does MP function differently, you can post copyrighted material there? memes?
sorry Mad, you make a good case, but I don't see the ST demographic paying $5 a month and verification of personage for a glorified Reddit page.
moving everything 'historical' to Wiki seems like an easy solution, then find a suitable platform forum, paid through targeted advertising, to discuss, blather, pontificate and troll until your fingers fall off
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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Apr 20, 2019 - 05:37pm PT
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Please refer to “Introduction” thread for “therapy”.
Peace
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Apr 20, 2019 - 05:52pm PT
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Well ,you really touched on something Marlow.
When talking with Thom the other day of all this, I told folks upthread of some of the freedom going away from litigation such as what is alleged here.
With Facebook you lose the copyright of photos uploaded to folks pages.
Facebook actually owns that once uploaded. Now just imagine that FB could hunt people down who shared your original image. Litigation ensues.
2019.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 20, 2019 - 06:44pm PT
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Damn, Anders:
That short piece you just you wrote was really good!
Let's relax for a spell.
It is Saturday, after all, and Lisa and I just got back from our weekly picnic in Colorado's Golden Gate State Park:
'Cuz – let's remember, this is what brings us all together!
Chicago – Saturday in the Park
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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Apr 20, 2019 - 06:49pm PT
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Yeah, someone one FB got all pissed off taking a photo they are in but not owning rights to and using it. A joke was made about it in reference to this pile of junk....and butt hurtery abound! I could care less who uses my stuff, my LIFE doesn't hinge on my photos, but if you can’t take a joke...a ribbing....oh well. I’ll move on, no harm, no foul...live in the past
Peace
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Apr 20, 2019 - 07:30pm PT
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Well that's just silly and clueless.
If people didn't want you to inline their youtube video, they can set a setting that allows one to view only on youtube.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 20, 2019 - 08:04pm PT
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Marlow said,
I have now deleted a lot of articles - many Bonatti, Buhl, Desmaison, Destivelle, Edlinger, Heckmair, Hill, Kurtyka, Grandes Jorasses, Fontainebleau, Welsh climbing and so on. This has left some threads in a poor condition...
It's a damn shame you had to delete all that stuff.
I can offer that I did save your thread, L'Equipement de l'Alpiniste, on 4-17-19, in two different formats.
Please e-mail me at my Gmail account: rcmcclenahan, and I will put both copies in dropbox for you.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 20, 2019 - 08:07pm PT
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If people didn't want you to inline their youtube video, they can set a setting that allows one to view only on youtube.
Someone has the thinking cap on
But if they did not know or forgot .....
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Apr 20, 2019 - 08:18pm PT
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This is bullsh#t. Why would you post a youtube video if you didn't want it to be seen? The more links the merrier I would surmise.
Edited to add: ST went about this really, really poorly. If there was an issue why was it not talked about before all the deletions, allowing people to save or modify things? Pretty piss poor thinking IMHO. No, no warning just boom.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 20, 2019 - 08:24pm PT
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Yeah, well:
(It is of course, Bullshit)
I just told RJ a couple days ago to delete all my 709 photos on the Supertopo server. Except my avatar.
It was just too painful, and too much work to go through it. Frankly, half of that was copyright infringement, mostly racecars pulled from Google image searches. And a smattering of other stuff that was my own, that I don't want to think about. (And locker memes, created by himself and Cozmic. But I have all that on hard drive.)
What the hell. I still have 6100+ images hanging about in links from my photobucket account!
You know, it ain't no big deal overall. Okay, I should NOT make light of it.
But you know, we all just need to get outside and have a few glasses of wine with someone we love, and contemplative the view.
Maybe take some pictures. We'll get through this!
Yours,
– Roy Boy,
The Cowboy Boy Toy of Joy.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 20, 2019 - 08:34pm PT
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Okay, JLP:
Just getting back to you now. It's been a busy day. I'm sure you understand.
So I saved a PDF of this exact page, and you are correct: my live link to that YouTube video several posts up works straight out of PDF!
But my recollection is that things like live YouTube videos don't work in that format. Got more work to do. Will advise.
..........................................
Marlow: I regret to inform you that I did NOT save the jazz thread.
But all the links still work, so we have that going on.
I would LOVE to create a playlist off of that thread.
Truly, artistically, this is my current grail from everything we've been doing on the forum, excepting of course, all of your historical stuff.
But as I'm sure I've said to you before: that jazz thread has been a lifeline for me.
Thank you.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 20, 2019 - 08:34pm PT
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"moving everything 'historical' to Wiki seems like an easy solution"
Not really. An "historical" event for Wiki needs to have been newsworthy to the extent magazine articles, newspapers, books, commercial videos, etc. reference it. A past summer gathering at City of Rocks, e.g., would probably be rejected. Not everything historical is of sufficient importance.
Better to support Steve's site.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 20, 2019 - 08:35pm PT
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^^^Exactly so.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 20, 2019 - 08:51pm PT
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Well, there you go, Jim!
High-fives, knuckles, hugs, or whatever generational-appropriate gesture works. I'm with you.
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BBA
Social climber
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Apr 20, 2019 - 08:59pm PT
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Sorry to see your 1931 thread destroyed, Roy. I put stuff in there that was in the spirit of only adding photos from my personal collection, and look what happened! Looks like swiss cheese where the holes outnumber the solids. I decided to be killed off and sent Mr Spurrier a note to that effect as it seems the forum is too unsteady a platform..
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 20, 2019 - 09:20pm PT
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It is unstable, BBA!
But you are such a valued member, I recommend you renege on that offer to RJ?
I saved the entire Yosemite Circa 1931 thread up to December of 2017.
Admittedly not as vigilant with that thread save protocal as I should've been.
If you'd like a copy, please e-mail me at my Gmail account:
rcmcclenahan
Berg heil!
Roy
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John M
climber
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Apr 20, 2019 - 09:31pm PT
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No point in leaving. Stick around. Whats better out there? Share what you have so that some at least get a chance to enjoy it. If its gone tomorrow.. well. that sucks but, whats better.. Not sharing at all is worse. Imagine if no one had gotten to hear some of the great stories that we have had over the years.
though I got to say.. I 'm still kind of chapped about the way it went down.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 20, 2019 - 09:44pm PT
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We are all chapped at the way it went down. Including CMAC and RJ.
That's how the going down generally feels: chapped.
Hell yeah, I'm pretty darned chapped.
It got away from them. All two of them. But we knew it was probably going to crash, and sometime soon: this is just the how of it. And most of the what part of it, too. But the why is always given to a more ephemeral assessment.
Maybe we just have to throw in all together and see how it plays out.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 20, 2019 - 09:44pm PT
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This place is more sterile than ever.
Even when I was climbing full time daily I rarely had the stomach to talk about climbing.
So boring talking about climbing and one track mind.
Boring ......
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 20, 2019 - 09:47pm PT
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Well, looks like Werner is back to usual form!
So we got that going on. ha ha.
You crack me up, WB. Thanks for keeping it real.
Whatever that means. I'm not so sure. But we'll take it & like it, until your next banning!
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 20, 2019 - 10:04pm PT
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This is bullsh#t. Why would you post a youtube video if you didn't want it to be seen? The more links the merrier I would surmise.
I believe when it is not played in Youtube proper certain things ({like ads}) are not displayed
Further there is a (still disputed) legal doctrine about things and whose server they are displayed on and copyrights
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 20, 2019 - 10:13pm PT
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Yeah, that's the one thing I really liked about our music threads and live YouTube links: no ads.
Cripes. Looks like we lost that battle, for now.
This was one of the corner cases of all of this which I hoped would survive: YouTube links.
Let's work on it? I got a nice set of wrenches. Who knows. Maybe some plaster of paris and a little dynamite, with a neatly wound macramé fuse will get us there?
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 20, 2019 - 10:19pm PT
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Come to think of it there are a bunch of switches in the YouTube execution line
I wonder ...
First look:
If you want to show someone just a bit of a video or skip a lengthy intro, you can append a time stamp to the URL to start it at that time.
Start 90 seconds into video
youtube.com/watch?v=7RWI3-8N_-Y&t=1m30s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RWI3-8N_-Y&t=15m30s
Yep this one started right at 15 min 30 sec
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 20, 2019 - 10:24pm PT
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Hell yes!
We should be able to hack our browsers to fix that, right?
You gotta FIGHT for your right to party, or so I've heard.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 20, 2019 - 10:39pm PT
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You can use the same java scripting plugin that works for the pictures. I looked at it quickly and noticed that while it’s easy in a language I know, it wasn’t a 60 second hack I could do with my lack of java skills. You’ll have to do a little text parsing and formatting of the youtube link that’s there to make it back into an embedded link, as it was, and in a robust enough way to deal with what appears to be a few different formats for those links.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 20, 2019 - 10:52pm PT
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Cripes, zB, I was about to put on side B of The Song Remains the Same. Vinyl record. Turntable. Cartridge-NEEDLE sort of arrangement.
Now you got me listening to this techno-ambient-soma drift.
Okay. And NO advertisement intrusion.
Lead on, Charlemagne.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 20, 2019 - 10:53pm PT
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Night time is for sleeping.
Instead of sitting around a st00pid campfire when it's 90 degrees out.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 20, 2019 - 10:55pm PT
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I don’t understand the rational behind removing embedded photos and YouTube videos. I guess supertopo got a cease a desist letter and decided to screw up the forum instead of looking into it.
Google images search shows millions of images from other sites. YouTube uploaders can easily set the video to not allow it to play embedded. Why remove the ability to do what countless other sites do. Sad the see the forum handicapped so.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 20, 2019 - 10:58pm PT
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Persona 5, zB?
Yeah, smooth soul R&B, with some orchestral punch. I'm hip to this. Then you drop me right in the middle of it with your syntax. So yeah, the patient is on the table, and still breathing!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 21, 2019 - 06:20am PT
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I tried to point out in my post that there are grey areas. Unless I can make my own judgements concerning them I am not going to make the effort to post threads meant to inform people about places not named California and, hopefully, to inspire some exploration.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Apr 21, 2019 - 08:17am PT
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In the new spirit of Super-topo correctness/cooperation (STC/C)
Here's my standard in poor-taste Easter joke!
"You won't believe who I ran into this morning."
Now imagine an undoubtedly copyrighted photo of a slightly squashed rabbit on the edge of a highway, & 20 or so broken Easter eggs, & a smashed Easter basket.
Hilarious, ain't it!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Apr 21, 2019 - 08:20am PT
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Getting a visual here.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 21, 2019 - 08:59am PT
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Donini said:
I tried to point out in my post that there are grey areas. Unless I can make my own judgements concerning them I am not going to make the effort to post threads meant to inform people about places not named California and, hopefully, to inspire some exploration. +1
I reiterated your question about the group photo to RJ.
I think he just needed to take a break and hopefully will get back to us?
I also added one: I took some screenshots of Supertopo as part of a thread saving tutorial. Supertopo is copyrighted, and so I was wondering if my reproduction was an infringement. I am thinking they might make an allowance, because it's NOT something they would probably come after me for on their own accord, but I don't want to make any assumptions.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Apr 21, 2019 - 09:42am PT
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...and this is the last one, I will stop writing the annoying truth: This is the "do not upload images you don't own on SuperTopo" political thread...
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Apr 21, 2019 - 09:43am PT
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Never stop communicating truth.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 21, 2019 - 11:01am PT
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I think I have complied to the rudimentary requirement that otherwise copyrighted material has been expunged from my uploaded photo area. It is not clear in some of those cases whether or not a copyright still applied, or ever applied to the material. Much printed ephemera does not have an explicit copyright statement. In those cases I deleted the image, which I think is the express desire of the SuperTopo management. I can claim copyright to all of the images that are now stored in my account.
Is there some tool to verify that I have complied?
On the other hand, in all images I have made, and images made of me by others, I have left in my account. I am not in the habit of asking for an expression of consent which would meet the legal definition of documenting consent, for a large number of people who populate the images I have made.
Is there some criteria that the STForum management would apply in this case to determine compliance with the current policy?
When people appear in my images who do not want them shared, and have asked for them to be deleted, I have complied. However, this does not represent a thorough vetting of the images with the people. Should I delete all images for which an explicit and verifiable statement of consent has not been made?
Finally, I have images of places and things which are entirely permitted in the case of personal use, but would fall under the category of "commercial" use if the sites they are posted acquire a financial/commercial benefit by displaying them. For instance the policy on "Filming" in the parks varies in detail from park to park. The policies of each of the parks is on the web, though there is some ambiguity, see for instance, the Yosemite National Park page:
https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/filming.htm
which both promotes the personal activity but does not address the public sharing of these images. For instance, is there a sensitivity for sharing images/videos of cultural artifacts publicly? It is clear that commercial activities would be reviewed, to quote: "Projects that require environmental evaluation, cultural resource review, or Native American consultation must be submitted no less than 90 days before the start of proposed activities, and may require additional time, dependent upon project complexity."
I have not reviewed my images to determine if they would fall inside this criteria, should I?
There is material available under Creative Commons rules, what is the STForum policy regarding the reproduction of this material?
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Apr 21, 2019 - 11:16am PT
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Never stop communicating truth.
Communicating truth? I mean where does this question lead us: How many 14-ers have Paul Ryan climbed?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 21, 2019 - 11:49am PT
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The question is: what are the requirements of obtaining "individual consent"? requirements which would withstand challenge of the STForum policies.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Apr 21, 2019 - 11:58am PT
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"I mean where does this question lead us"
Laughing hardly.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 21, 2019 - 01:30pm PT
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Never read the terms carefully. My bad.
"User Content" means any text, music, sound, photos, video, evaluations, ratings, or graphics which you or other users of the Service create, upload, download, transmit, store, or appearing on the Service. User Content is publicly-viewable on the Service. You agree that you are solely responsible for your User Content.
You agree not to post, upload to, transmit, distribute, store, create or otherwise publish or send through the Service any of the following:
...
User Content that may impinge upon the publicity, privacy or data protection rights of others, including pictures or information about another individual where you have not obtained such individual's consent
...
So, if I happen to know that Poster1 and Poster2 and I all attended the same university, I may not divulge that information without first obtaining the consent of Poster1 and/or Poster2., right?
Probably wouldn't even matter if it was Poseur1 and Poseur2 now would it?
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Apr 21, 2019 - 01:44pm PT
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... and they must of course have a chance to change their mind. You will need a written and signed statement. Much good food for American lawyers...
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Apr 21, 2019 - 02:30pm PT
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Your first link ,man ,that is sad ,really.
HS.
See ,it is more than just butthurt. That takes some.
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Scott Thelen
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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Apr 21, 2019 - 02:54pm PT
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Thank you !!!!
That is why I visit this site climbing
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 21, 2019 - 02:56pm PT
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Oh, now that's just WRONG, thebravecowboy. Now I'm depressed. Thanks a lot.
I hear that there's a medicine for this new depression, but some of the side-effects include "involuntary muscle movements that may be permanent," and, of course, "depression, suicidal thoughts," etc... leading to the kicker: "death." So, to fix the depression you've just plunged me into, I have to risk death and will be almost certainly brain-damaged.
Well, I guess that, except for the new jerking and spasming (that may be permanent), nobody will notice.
Again, thanks a bunch!
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Apr 21, 2019 - 04:34pm PT
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Like you said TBC,try to avoid the drama,man.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Apr 21, 2019 - 04:53pm PT
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naw dude, it's high time I hide the goods anyway. For folks with cojones like Cmac to shy away from webmeistering politically-charged material is fine. And it is likewise fine for those of us that disagree with the decision to respond in kind.
MB1 and Willbeer, It is nice to know you folks even just on the site. I am stoked on your adventures upcoming willbeer, and I look forward to seeing more of your world-class windmill-tilts on choss MB1. I am kinda bent, obviously, about the poor decision by site management to limit our opportunity to see how you folks might discuss and reason through issues of a political nature upon which you do not agree. I found it charming, the old school crustiness of this site and the non-climbing discussion herein was a big part of the draw for me. This included copyrighted memes etc.
For me this is all wrapped up in politics, all of it: the new-routing and the choss-scouting and the route-naming, etc. It's fine if ST does not want to host political material or copyright material. Some sites, like Widefetish, will be interested in both my unbridled political vitriol as well as the pics of the (rarity of rarities, for me at least) world-class steep splitter granite handcrack/OW that I opened up two days ago. And that's fine. I'd rather share my stuff and interact with Pyro over there and see his Make America White Again shtick than to deal with a bunch of neutered apolitical BS here.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Apr 21, 2019 - 04:59pm PT
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I am going to second Tarbusters advice earlier in this thread and say keep your stuff here,ride it out,let’s see what happens.
This has been a special place.
Btw,WE have a lot to lose without you here.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 21, 2019 - 06:05pm PT
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I hear ya, TBC, and thanks for sharing. Seriously.
I think that wilbeer is on the right track. I'll see how things play out. Frankly, I think that management is trying to figure things out. My guess is that within a month or so a new normal will take hold, and we'll adapt.
No babies with bathwater, my friend!
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 21, 2019 - 06:09pm PT
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There have been a number of posts requesting clarification on whether specific images comply with the SuperTopo Terms of Service.
The idea of asking for a judgment on a specific image is completely understandable. If you are not sure, why not ask SuperTopo to make a call on your image?
At the risk of offending some members, I'm going to answer by explaining why we aren't able, and are actually not even willing, to provide case-by-case judgment on whether a specific image complies with our Terms of Service:
The Rules are in our Terms of Service -- some of you have expressed confusion about what the rules are for image uploads. The rules we ask of you to use this site and upload images are in our Terms of Service. Providing a short-hand explanation of our Terms of Service could easily mistate those rules. So, we're not going to do that. Please refer to our Terms of Service if you are not sure what our rules are.
More than 200,000 Images -- there are just a ton of images uploaded to SuperTopo. Every one of them has a unique story in terms of copyright use rights. The idea that we would research and comment on the copyright history of even a small faction of those images is simply impractical in terms of cost and time.
We don't have the Context -- you should know whether you own or have the rights to your images. If you aren't sure you own or have the rights to a certain image, then please don't upload it to SuperTopo (or delete it if you uploaded it in the past). We don't want you to proceed with uploading an image that you don't own or have the rights to, or for which you think might infringe on someone else's intellectual copyright or other intellectual/privacy rights. If you aren't sure, then please don't upload it (or delete it now if you uploaded it in the past).
I understand this refusal to provide case-by-case verification of your image questions is not what some of you hoped for. And, I can appreciate that it may come off as cold and harsh, as well as not as helpful as you'd like. Sorry about that.
SuperTopo has never allowed in our Terms of Service the uploading of images that infringe on the copyrights of others to be uploaded on the site. If you think your image may not comply with our Terms of Service, then please don't upload it (or please immediately delete it if it was previously uploaded).
I am hopeful you can understand our position.
rj
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Apr 21, 2019 - 06:46pm PT
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I feel that the baby with the bathwater approach is warranted here: at one point I saved and reposted (with sT hosting) some hilarious but totally copyright infringing material that Bachar had on his ST stuff. That bachar got all that stuff nuked is a real shot across the bow, and I think tk be safe i will just pull my personal TR and general rock climbing stoke stuff off the site, at least in terms of images and contributions other than rare "attaboy" or tip of the hat kinda stuff.
WRT ST in the larger space of web climbing history, beta, stoke, fora: It's one thing to age gracefully, another completely to lose your sh#t like an old formerly genteel bloke without an umbrella. All of a sudden this old dude is kneeling in runoff on the sidewalk in the rain scrabbling for an umbrella in his reach...that was never there to begin with. It is ugly and it is sad and I am not sure where ST is trying to land in the webscape of climbing but it seems like maybe some blokes are not worth trying to help along at some point, nor is there much benefit to sticking it out and doing the right karmic thing only to get stuck with some demented moldy old limey.
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 21, 2019 - 07:06pm PT
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TheBraveCowboy:
Regarding:
That bachar got all that stuff nuked
No photo posted by John Bachar has ever been nuked on this site. Period. Full stop.
John posted on this site 2,566 times (you can see them here). I'm not aware of any post by John ever being deleted. And, not once did John ever upload an image to this site. He simply hotlinked to images, and those links remain intact.
Regarding:
I am not sure where ST is trying to land in the webscape of climbing
The only place we are trying to land with regard to image uploads is as a site that does not tolerate copyright infringement.
We think it is wrong, immoral, unnecessary for our mission, and we have never allowed it in our Terms of Service. You may not agree, and you may want to start your own website that invites copyright infringement. That is your right. But, our rules are not unreasonable, and we're not going to back off an 18-year old policy that abhors and disallows the abuse of copyrights.
If our policy on copyright infringement causes some people to decide this place is not right for them, then we will understand it if those people decide to go elsewhere. People are free to choose, and a wide range of choices is one of the things that makes the internet so amazing.
Our point of view on images is simple: copyright infringement is not OK.
We believe our mission for the SuperTopo Forum can be met with images that people own or have the rights to. That mission:
To provide a resource for climbers of all skill levels and experience to get information about climbing and climbing destinations.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Apr 21, 2019 - 07:12pm PT
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I feel that the baby with the bathwater approach is warranted here
Not sure I agree with that cowboy. You and I have had cordial off forum correspondence, so hope you will hear me out.
I'm not really sure what is going on as the hosts have not been transparent as to the reason they are taking the tack they have. The reason for the lack of transparency and seeming random deletions is above my pay grade. I'm assuming there is a pending lawsuit if the forum does not comply with copy right law.
When good people leave, the forum suffers. I for one have questions about what is going on. However, when all is said and done, it would be a shame to see the hosts pull the plug on the forum.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 21, 2019 - 07:26pm PT
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of course
SuperTopo has never allowed in our Terms of Service the uploading of images that infringe on the copyrights of others to be uploaded on the site. If you think your image may not comply with our Terms of Service, then please don't upload it (or please immediately delete it if it was previously uploaded).
However,
They were never enforced
Lulling folks into violating the terms
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Apr 21, 2019 - 07:46pm PT
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I will continue to try to get along with ST management, in the current dilema they find themselves in.
Of course, I could be bitter about them deleting all my thousands of photos I had hosted on their ST web-site since 2009.
But I'm better than that.
Hey! Check out my now photo-missing Trip Reports on ST.
Pursuit of BlueBonnet tower and the Lost Crystal Cave. Dec 2009 http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Pursuit-of-Bluebonnet-Tower-and-the-Lost-Crystal-Cave-Sawtooths-Idaho/t10506n.html
I do need to share Chris's comment on this story:
Elephant’s Perch New route 1/15/2010
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Elephant_s_Perch_Sawtooth_Range_Idaho_NR_Epic_Pacydermial_Pleasantries_1977/t10566n.html
Mt Fay 1978 revised 2011 Trip Report.
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/MARK-FRITZS-BIG-MT-FAY-1978-CANADIAN-ADVENTURE/t11242n.html
Donini at The City of Rocks: Climbing as a Lifetime Sport! 2010
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Donini-at-The-City-of-Rocks-Climbing-as-a-Lifetime-Sport/t10740n.htm
A SLICK ROCK Adventure in Idaho with a single Blue Camalot Belay aug.2015
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-SLICK-ROCK-Adventure-in-Idaho-with-a-single-Blue-Camalot-Belay/t12821n.html
Owyhee adventures: rock, cows, ticks, guns, Prehistoric women, & secret Air Force bombing sites. July 4th 2011
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Owyhee-adventures-rock-cows-ticks-guns-Prehistoric-women-secret-Air-Force-bombing-sites/t11055n.html
6-day San Juan River Workout, rafting, & Lost Tribe of Prehistoric Women Search Epic!
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/6-day-San-Juan-River-Workout-rafting-Lost-Tribe-of-Prehistoric-Women-Search-Epic/t11013n.html
Training for, then climbing a 28,999’ Tropical Volcano
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/TRAINING-FOR-THEN-CLIMBING-an-AWESOME-8839-meter-28-999-Ft-TROPICAL-VOLCANO/t11824n.html
A Ridge So Far &/or Am I getting too-old for this? Idaho 2018
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-Ridge-So-Far-or-Am-I-getting-too-old-for-this/t13337n.html
FRITZ & HIS FLIES! BITING-FLESH ADVENTURES IN DEEPEST IDAHO! 2018
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/FRITZ-HIS-FLIES-BITING-FLESH-ADVENTURES-IN-DEEPEST-IDAHO/t13327n.html
A Search for Cave art, Prehistoric women, Wine & Adventures in France 2015
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-Search-for-Cave-art-Prehistoric-women-Wine-Adventures-in-France/t12848n.html
HOTEL TO HOTEL HIKING WITH HEIDI & JERRY & ANGIE IN THE DOLOMITES 2018
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/HOTEL-TO-HOTEL-HIKING-WITH-HEIDI-JERRY-ANGIE-IN-THE-DOLOMITES/t13352n.html
A visit to Dubrovnik, some sailing in Croatia, & an Octoberfest Party on the way home 2017
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-visit-to-Dubrovnik-some-sailing-in-Croatia-an-Octoberfest-Party-on-the-way-home/t13220n.html[/quote]
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter, Little Rock
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Apr 21, 2019 - 07:52pm PT
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Of course, I could be bitter about them deleting all my thousands of photos I had hosted on the ST web-site since 2009.
But I'm better than that.
Yeah Fritz. Taking umbrage serves no purpose. But yeah, it sucks that the hosts are taking such draconian measures for apparently no freaking reason. RJ's posts are nothing but legalese. There must be a way he or CMac could give some insight without compromising their legal position.
I understand why there is reason for exodus, but let's hang on and see where this goes?
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Apr 21, 2019 - 07:57pm PT
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I hear you John, just as I do RJ and MB1 and Willbeer and Fritz and of course our dear zbrown. I agree that the forum suffers when folks leave. I am not gonna leave but I don't really wanna come play here anymore, which sucks for me and for the folks with whom the stoke and the adventurism of new route and new summit rock climbing I shared in common. As far as umbrage, Fritz, I'll take a double helping, and thanks for your share ;-)
I almost brought the bigger of your two gifted tube chocks out for a wide steep granite FA on Friday, Johntp, ended up glad to not have brought that huge old paperweight up as it was quite flaring, btw, and of course not quite as wide/deep as it looked from below. i will email you when i use the tube chocks on some choss eventually, and share a link. :-)
The fact that I, with all of my material, could well be instantaneously, without warning, permanently and arbitrarily nuked for saving and reposting material that Bachar linked is completely bogus and RJ chose to ignore that in his response. I don't really care to engage RJ any further in his thankless task of explaining and justifying the twofold f*#kery of copyright image stuff and political castration of the forum.
All I know is that I will lurk and maybe attaboy erry now and then but for the most part the haphazard and anti-discourse management turns are a real turn-off.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter, Little Rock
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Apr 21, 2019 - 08:19pm PT
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for the most part the haphazard and anti-discourse management turns are a real turn-off.
As longtime members and contributors, we deserve some explanation for the random deletions/bannings/photo regulation. Understood the copy right issue is a concern to the hosts, so that is justified; deleting owned photos makes no sense.
I could give a ratz arse about political threads and will be happy to see them gone, but don't understand how they are a liability to the the forum hosts unless there is commercial interest.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 21, 2019 - 08:42pm PT
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This all way above my pay grade. In internet matters I am a complete Luddite. I’ll take the easy way out and cease to contribute photos...ciao!
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Apr 21, 2019 - 08:49pm PT
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^ this is a huge loss to ST and it is a completely logical response by one of the most exalted members (idols?) of our community. cheers Donini, and thanks for sharing as much as you did, it was priceless magic that your pixels conveyed. probably better to keep that kinda big medicine stored safe and sound where it won't get into the (wider "climbing" public's) wrong hands nor get zapped without warning along with your (entire) profile when you inadvertently post a copyrighted image of something silly (like TV's dicktater carved potato pic).
whose umbrage was that I borrowed? bc I think I want a bit more and the loss of the mystery virgin peak pics from Donini has just increased market value for umbrage pie.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Apr 21, 2019 - 09:35pm PT
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So you (we) just lost Donini. And Guido. And yet administration still claims the higher moral ground. Give me a break. Don't you see where you are wrong? You come back with unflinching confidence in yourself but look at who we're losing because of your tactics. That should give you a clue and it flies in the face of every single one of your dead-pan responses.
In short, you and us are all losing something that was great.
Arne
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 21, 2019 - 09:38pm PT
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Something is amiss when the venerable and downright good man cannot seem to find a way to fit in!
Can't even find a photo to purloin of Jim Donini.
Shame
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 21, 2019 - 09:59pm PT
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^^^That is otherworldly, humorous, and beautiful.
Donini & Guido's exits are like sand in the mouth.
Marlow's historical deletions are terrifying.
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 22, 2019 - 06:24am PT
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Tarbuster:
I would hope that Donini changes his mind.
The fact is that our rule is pretty simple: only upload photos you own or have rights to.
I find it hard to believe that Donini won't find a route past that challenge. He has managed to master so many greater challenges in the past. I don't expect this to slow him down for long.
Marlow's historical deletions are terrifying.
I don't feel the same way.
Marlow's scans of other people's copyrighted articles are not appropriate for posting on SuperTopo. I'm appreciative that he removed them.
It is disrespectful to the authors, publishers, and photographers of copyrighted materials to infringe on their work. We can't condone it, and we're not going to embrace an immoral and unethical stance that pretends copyright infringement is OK.
I have a hard time believing that you, Roy, would really advocate that people on this site disregard other people's copyrights.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 22, 2019 - 06:47am PT
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I believe that I have reached a point in life where I can make executive decisions regarding certain matters. If I use images that I don’t own but that I know that I have tacit approval to use, I will do so.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Apr 22, 2019 - 06:53am PT
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RJ Spurrier
It is disrespectful to the authors, publishers, and photographers of copyrighted materials to infringe on their work.
You can turn this on the head: When I posted the long forgotten articles (most of them) I was appreciative of what the authors had written. I gave the articles a second life and in a form that didn't compete with the original. It was photos. I did it out of respect. Respect for the authors and respect for their themes and subjects. That is not easy to see if all that is on your mind is lawyers, ownership and money.
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 22, 2019 - 06:59am PT
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Marlow:
I was appreciative of what the authors had written... I did it out of respect. Respect for the authors and respect for their themes and subjects.
I did not mean to impune your good intentions.
And, I think everyone here understands your intentions had the very best of motivations, and your posts seem to fall under the Fair Use guidelines: to honor the authors and publishers of that valued work, to reignite interest in the copyright holders work, allow commentary and awareness of it for educational purposes, and to celebrate their work.
That said, we don't want scans of copyrighted content on SuperTopo, and are appreciate that you removed them.
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Apr 22, 2019 - 07:12am PT
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as tragic as all this is, not having personally pointed a camera at a dead horse, my opinion will not at this time be accompanied by illustration or image
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Apr 22, 2019 - 07:12am PT
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I think everyone here understands your intentions had the very best of motivations, and your posts seem to fall under the Fair Use guidelines: to honor the authors and publishers of that valued work, to reignite interest in the copyright holders work, allow commentary and awareness of it for educational purposes, and to celebrate their work.
That said, we don't want scans of copyrighted content on SuperTopo, and are appreciate that you removed them.
Which means there's fear of lawyers all the way down...
... a primary concern that is not well grounded on a climbing website, but not without reason...
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 22, 2019 - 07:30am PT
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Marlow:
Which means there's fear of lawyers all the way down...
Definitely.
Our copyright policy has been the same for 18 years and has always been very conservative. Our image upload policy is based in the simple idea that the only images that are appropriate to upload here are those you own or have the right to, and that do not infringe on anyone else's intellectual property or privacy rights.
And, yes, fear of a lawyer suing or even threatening to sue SuperTopo is a key part of our motivation. That isn't something we're going to apologize for. It involves time and money we don't feel we can afford. The Forum is a community service that loses money today without the additional burden of time and money stemming from legal disputes. We just don't want to take that kind of risk.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Apr 22, 2019 - 07:40am PT
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Which will mean that ST to an even greater extent is left with the politics, just like we continue now. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but have to be extremely careful about posting anything connected to climbing and climbing history because of the lawyer scare...
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Apr 22, 2019 - 07:45am PT
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RJ,
Can't you just pad your insurance policy in the unlikely event you get sued for someone like Marlow's content?
Arne
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 22, 2019 - 07:54am PT
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Can't you just pad your insurance policy in the unlikely event you get sued for someone like Marlow's content?
LOL
That's a lawyer magnet fix. They will then come running (money is there).
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 22, 2019 - 08:01am PT
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We just don't want to take that kind of risk. Good luck with that!
I have a copyright infringement story for you!
My sister in law - she’s into her crafts - silly stuff like pot holders with ducks - quilts - stuff not so different than justthemaid or happigrl might create.
She goes to an arts and craft show - for fun - in the middle of fricken Iowa - a magazine takes a photo of her stuff and cites her name - among many others.
So a few months later - she gets a letter in the mail - probably not so different than the one you just got - claiming her designs were ripped off and that she’s going to get sued for licensing fees!!
Man the f’k up boys, this is the world we live in, and this is what insurance is for.
Things suck now, I’ve been there, but I think you’ll come out the other side with a different attitude - possibly one where you’ll want to hit back when you can!
As long as Supertopo is visible to the public and as long as people can look at guys like CM and think he’s totally rich and living the easy dream - you’ll be a target for this sh!t!
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A Essex
climber
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Apr 22, 2019 - 10:03am PT
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How long until Mountain Project, owned by REI gets sued?!?!?!?!
only time will tell
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 22, 2019 - 10:16am PT
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How long until Mountain Project, owned by REI gets sued?!?!?!?! How would you know it hasn't already happened - happens often - and you don't hear about it?
Looks like REI's legal department is looking for an extra hand!
https://rei.jobs/careers/JobDetail/Legal-Department-Administrator/13752
"mid-size (25+ attorney)"
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 22, 2019 - 10:30am PT
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That's a lawyer magnet fix. They will then come running (money is there).
It's actually the opposite. A competent attorney knows that insurance companies have deep pockets, not just to pay damages but to FIGHT paying damages with some of the best attorneys money can buy. Getting money OUT of an insurance company is like blood from a turnip.
And an incompetent attorney is going to get his/her butt handed to him/her (at plaintiff's expense) as a learning experience.
So, the mere HAVING of a good IP insurance policy actually RAISES the bar against frivolous suits. And ST HAS been in compliance with safe harbor provisions (as we keep getting reminded), so a competent attorney doing even a shred of due diligence will recognize that a take-down demand letter regarding an individual violation is the furthest the matter is ever gonna go. Damages are basically out of the question.
I again refer you to YouTube and other such content sites. If "deep pockets make the lawyers come running" were true, then please explain how they lasted this long without being sued out of existence.
It's just not the way this game works. ST is MUCH safer then the management apparently feels, and they would be effectively untouchable with a good IP policy.
But, again, NONE of these points are relevant.
What we keep hearing is that the forums lose money, so there is NO bang-for-buck there. So, why would anybody spend MORE money to "protect themselves" from problems that are just introduced BY the very users who are using the service for free and thereby REDUCING the bang-for-buck ratio on all fronts?
I'm not happy with how things are going, and I don't feel that the management has been as communicative as they might have been. But we are NOT entitled to this forum OR to their communication! And it is clear that ST management are 100% backing away from the idea that this forum is some necessary public service to the climbing community. That is their right. They don't OWE us anything, nor do they OWE the climbing community anything.
So, all talk about how they COULD manage to do something to serve us that they have explicitly stated they are not motivated to do, well, it's all moot.
THIS is the new normal, and I don't expect it to change based on ANY moaning or suggestions to the contrary. What they COULD do and what they have any motivation to do are two wildly different things.
So, it's time for each of us to decide as individuals how we intend to cope with the new normal.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Apr 22, 2019 - 11:26am PT
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Madbolter1!! Wow, Oh Wow, Dude!
Speaking of a new normal, I find your post worth repeating. Thank you!
I'm not happy with how things are going, and I don't feel that the management has been as communicative as they might have been. But we are NOT entitled to this forum OR to their communication! And it is clear that ST management are 100% backing away from the idea that this forum is some necessary public service to the climbing community. That is their right. They don't OWE us anything, nor do they OWE the climbing community anything.
So, all talk about how they COULD manage to do something to serve us that they have explicitly stated they are not motivated to do, well, it's all moot.
THIS is the new normal, and I don't expect it to change based on ANY moaning or suggestions to the contrary. What they COULD do and what they have any motivation to do are two wildly different things.
So, it's time for each of us to decide as individuals how we intend to cope with the new normal.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 22, 2019 - 11:27am PT
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^^^ Who'da thunk it?
Thanks.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 22, 2019 - 11:45am PT
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Well I was sued once. It is no fun. Served with papers at home right before midnight.
I hired an attorney but decided to go it alone at the settlement conference.
The biggest player was the Data General Corporation. Other players were two computer maintenance/repair companies, a software company and me the consultant.
The plaintiff sued DG, the software company and one maintenance company.
I and the other maintenance company were the real heroes. We recovered and for the most part fixed the broken system.
The arbitrator, a retired judge, found that the heroes had no liability. We were absolved and sent on our separate ways.
The attorney who dragged us into the countersuit apologized to me afterwards, saying he knew we did nothing wrong, but that "business as usual" in the legal world.
Cost me a bit of money, but the worst was the wear and tear on my psyche.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Apr 22, 2019 - 11:55am PT
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I tried to figure out how to join bulgingwideopenfetish, Not thinking of the ramifications; I was going to sign up as RoXjOx but it was not Garrblefriendlybase
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Apr 22, 2019 - 01:10pm PT
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Glad to see most people still here. Since there seems to be a lot of interest in lawyers lately, here's a good story. I actually know the main character in it, bill scherer, and am fighting with him in two cases.
Scherer got some naked pictures of a judge and threatened to publish them before the judges election. She relented, gave up on the custody of her son, and was re elected. Four years later, just before statute of limitations would run, she threatens to sue him. Before filing suit, her lawyer emails scherer and demands ten million dollars. Otherwise he will file it. Before she files anything, Scherer sues her lawyers for extortion. I think Scherer will get his head handed to him, but still, the moral of the story is: never threaten to sue someone and definitely do not demand money until you are ready to file the complaint. If you don't have a real case, it could be criminal extortion.
Judge and lawyer trade accusations of blackmail
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 22, 2019 - 02:40pm PT
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^^^ You do NOT pull the gun until you are COMMITTED to firing it. Brandishing is a crime, and if the "pull" was legally justified, so was the "bang."
Only idiots with bad (or no) counsel threaten to sue a site like SuperTopo.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 22, 2019 - 03:01pm PT
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Only idiots with bad (or no) counsel threaten to sue That's not true at all.
The game is to threaten and confuse - then agree to walk away with "cost of litigation".
ie, if the litigation looks like it would cost an insurance company $10k to fight and defend, even if winning is near 100%, the insurance might offer $10k to the plaintiff to go away - and they'll take it.
~90% of cases are settled this way. All day every day all over the place. The "duty to defend" is on the insurance company - money in the bank for the plaintiff, they just need to pull something out of their butt to create a risk of liability - and cha-ching!
It's all about the easy money for these people. They're fuking parasites.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 22, 2019 - 03:26pm PT
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You didn't finish my quote, leaving out the KEY phrase, "sites like SuperTopo."
By your own example, there is no money to go for here, and apparently no insurance company.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 22, 2019 - 03:35pm PT
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no insurance company. If they're suing CM personally - or threatening to - as has been alluded to in these threads - and he owns property - as I think also has come out here in the past - then he has insurance - and from my rough reading of CA laws - it would apply here - Google "duty to defend CA". It would definitely apply in CO.
The basic gist is if a house is seized in a judgement, the mortgage probably won’t get paid, just as if there were a flood or a fire
The plaintiffs are 1000% aware of this.
It's really no effort beyond sending a threatening demand letter to take the additional step of sending a similar one to a court to open a case and thus officially begin a lawsuit - to turn up the heat - and the BS.
Again - to the moon and back - to actually get money - especially out of an uninsured individual.
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Chris McNamara
SuperTopo staff member
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2019 - 03:47pm PT
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Hi Forum,
I'd like to once again thank those of you who have helped us by taking the time to delete any copyright infringing photos you have uploaded.
It is very important to us that there are no images on our servers that infringe on the copyrights of others. I appreciate your help!
Have You Checked Your Photo Uploads?
I'd like to ask those of you who have not yet carefully reviewed your photos to please do so in the next few days.
What Kinds of Photos Infringe on Copyrights?
Some people are not sure what kinds of photos infringe on other people's copyrights, so I wanted to provide a list of the most common kinds of infringing photos we've seen. This is not an exhaustive list, but is intended to help you know what kinds of photos are often copyright infringing:
Memes - these are typically based on copyrighted photos and need to be removed. If you don't own or have the rights to the photo a meme is based on, please remove it.
Celebrities - photos of celebrities, actors, politicians, athletes, and other famous people are typically copyrighted photos and need to be removed
Pro Photographer Photos - photos taken by professional photographers are almost invariably copyrighted and need to be removed
Photoshop and Derivatives of Copyrighted Images - modifying a copyrighted photo in Photoshop, or taking a photo of a photo doesn't give you the right to use it
Scans of Copyrighted Magazines, Books, or Articles - we can't have any scans of climbing articles, guidebook pages, or any other scans of copyrighted printed material on our server. I know this kind of content has been interesting and may have real historical or educational value, but it is nonetheless copyright infringing and needs to be removed
Cartoons - cartoons are fun, but also copyrighted materials, and need to be removed.
TV and Movie Images - images from TV shows and movies are copyrighted content and need to be removed
Inappropriate Images - There is no justification for posting inappropriate images on SuperTopo, which is intended to be a friendly environment for climbers of all ages. If you have uploaded any inappropriate images, please remove them. If you see any on the site, please help us by using the feedback link at the footer of every page to let us know about inappropriate content so we can remove it
As a reminder, you are solely responsible for your photo uploads. We do not condone, nor will we accept financial liability, for any member who uploads images or content to SuperTopo that infringes on the copyrights of others.
We ask you to review any photos you have uploaded to SuperTopo, and immediately delete any photos you may have uploaded if you are not 100% sure you own the rights to the image.
Should we discover copyright infringing photos on your account, all your photos will be deleted and wiped from the server as a protective measure, and your account may be de-activated.
Thank you for your help with this very important effort.
Sincerely,
Chris McNamara
Founder
SuperTopo
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Apr 22, 2019 - 03:58pm PT
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Chris, it sounds like all this may have been prompted by some external threat. If so, I’m really sorry to hear it. Thanks for hosting the Forum within the domain of your privately held company. I’ve made so many good friends here. And gotten a lot of laughs. What a gift.
Take care, Phyl
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Apr 22, 2019 - 05:02pm PT
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Is SuperTopo not availing itself of the DMCA safe harbor protection provisions? Or was there some changes to the law or to Supertopo itself that I am not aware of that makes SuperTopo vulnerable?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 22, 2019 - 05:46pm PT
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^^^ We've been having that very conversation almost this entire thread.
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ruppell
climber
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Apr 22, 2019 - 05:54pm PT
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F*#k it.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 22, 2019 - 06:03pm PT
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The following sites are great sources of copyright-free images:
Getty Open Content: Public domain art images from Getty collections.
Library of Congress Prints & Photographs Online: Images from the Library of Congress, now in the public domain.
Wikimedia Commons: Historical and contemporary images contributed by participants. Millions of high-resolution images of art, architecture, design, people, historical events, diagrams, maps, and more.
World Images: Primarily historical images organized into 18 categories, including Women, Science, Cities, Natural World, Science, and more.
NGA Images - National Gallery of Art: Includes more than 20,000 open access digital images, available free of charge for download and use
Archive.org: Extensive website containing free eBooks, images, video, audio, and other media to view and download. Also includes the Internet Wayback Machine, for accessing archived, past versions of websites.
The Commons by Flickr: Images from archives, museums, libraries and research centers such as the New York Public Library, Smithsonian, Library of Congress and Getty Research Institute. The images have no known copyright restrictions.
Photo Graphic Libraries: Public Domain Images: Provides links to public domain and free image collections, film & video available for use in the public domain
Yale University Digital Commons: Yale's digital collections, including images from the Peabody Museum, Center for British Art, University Art Gallery, Library Map Collection, and Walpole Library Prints and Drawings. Item records clearly indicate when an object/image is public domain material and available for open access and use without license fees.
https://owhlguides.andover.edu/c.php?g=111583&p=721634
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter, Little Rock
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Apr 22, 2019 - 06:15pm PT
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As a reminder, you are solely responsible for your photo uploads. We do not condone, nor will we accept financial liability, for any member who uploads images or content to SuperTopo that infringes on the copyrights of others.
Question to the mods: All the photos I've posted are mine with three exceptions. These were pictures by Dave Bohn of two celestial photos and one with he and MDaly BITD. He knows I posted them here and had no objection. I credited them to Dave.
To my knowledge, they are not copy righted. Are they OK or out of compliance?
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Apr 22, 2019 - 06:27pm PT
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zBrown, thank you for that list. I had earlier asked about Commons but had no answer. So a Commons photo would have no restrictions re posting.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
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Apr 22, 2019 - 06:34pm PT
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The DMCA safe harbour only applies if:
1. The site doesn't receive a financial benefit from the copyrighted work
2. Doesn't know it is hosting copyrighted material and
3. Promptly removes it upon discovery.
I don't see how that statute is helpful here.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Apr 22, 2019 - 06:38pm PT
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This site seems to fit all three requirements...
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 22, 2019 - 06:58pm PT
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Neither Chris nor RJ has explicitly stated that public domain images are OK.
However since their concern is with copyright violation I am guessing that pd images can be uploaded to ST.
They did however delete many public domain photos in their quest for copyright purity.
I'd like to once again thank those of you who have helped us by taking the time to delete any copyright infringing photos you have uploaded.
Perhaps designating the image "Credit" as "Public Domain" or "Copyright_Free" would help.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter, Little Rock
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Apr 22, 2019 - 08:07pm PT
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Just noticed the Tee-Shirt thread has had a boatload of photos deleted. There was a lot of history there. Why do photos of tee shirts require deletion?
This whole process of purging the forum just seems ambiguous and random.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 22, 2019 - 08:12pm PT
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The artwork on the T-shirts themselves might be copyrighted. Some, or most of it surely is. And reproducing a likeness of it could be an infringement?
We'd all have to be lawyers to really know about this stuff, and RJ has already stated that it's not their place to give us a ruling on every little move we make.
These guys are now enforcing rules that went unenforced for a very long time, in order to protect themselves from a lawsuit bolstered by some ruling in 2018.
We, likewise, are complying as best we can. But not without a good deal of complaining: so it goes.
Since most of us are not lawyers, and neither are RJ or CMAC, yeah, our efforts are likely to be pretty inconsistent. Not surprising.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 22, 2019 - 08:16pm PT
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Yes tB, derivatives are not just in calculus!
Photoshop and Derivatives of Copyrighted Images - modifying a copyrighted photo in Photoshop, or taking a photo of a photo doesn't give you the right to use it
Many images died due to the bulk delete methodology. E.G mfm's fotos
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Apr 22, 2019 - 08:53pm PT
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The artwork on the T-shirts themselves might be copyrighted.
Jesus f*#king Christ. Everything seems to be copyrighted; this is stupid. If I take a picture of my daughter in Disneyland can I show it to a friend or post it on Supertopo? Probably not, it might have some copyrighted image of Mickey in it.
I've actually never been to Disneyland and don't even know if they allow cameras.
And since I'm on a rant, here's another thing; the copyright period was about to expire on Mickey Mouse and Disney had 'our' legislators extend the copyright for another 70 years or something.
True story: My daughter and wife went to Disneyland when Katy was like nine. When they got back to Seattle she wrote a letter to Disney telling them that their conception of the tree house in their version of Swiss Family Robinson was wrong, as she'd read the book several times, and proceeded to list their errors. She offered to help them correct the set, with specific guidelines as to errors. Hilarious. I have a copy somewhere but can't find it quickly. They never responded.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Apr 23, 2019 - 01:06am PT
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When in doubt throw it out
However what about pictures sent to me & pictures that I appear in?
There is an implied reciprocity of use,
I own my own likeness and do not release that without retaining the right to also use the picture.
(this, when no previous agreement has been entered into,)
(no capitalization/monetization or professional use was intended.)
What if I am the only identifiable person in the picture?
&/or I enhance the picture to isolate myself?
What if I am one of three in a picture?
(taken by a 4th party & posted without permission, or by a 5th party that is we are climbing side by side)
what if I am in the background and enhance that to isolate myself?
Also If I remove the subject of a picture, the resulting derivative
is a different picture.
(removing the Hot Rods, Gas pumps, people, doors, entrances, displayed merchandise, showing only partial sings & roof)
(& I show complete strangers, the pictures that I take of them & offer to share the image, explaining that I might post it here)
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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Apr 23, 2019 - 04:33am PT
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Guys, there is a light at the and of this tunnel.
I believe that we have a chance of stopping these lawyers/racketeers in a not so distant future.
Have you paid attention to Michael Avenatti?
It was OK (from point of view of the American justice system) when he was extorting Donald Trump.
However he got into some troubles when he tried to repeat the same trick with Nike, one of the real masters of the US.
Avenatti charged with trying to extort millions from Nike
I am curious whether Chris already contacted the office of a local prosecutor.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Apr 23, 2019 - 04:53am PT
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I believe that we have a chance of stopping these lawyers/racketeers in a not so distant future.
I bet Nike's full-time legal department is just slightly better funded than ST... The profit margin on cheaply manfactured Chinese shoes with an overpriced swoosh logo is pretty good.
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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Apr 23, 2019 - 06:05am PT
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fear, I hope that they can set up a precedent that would make a life of all other people easier.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 23, 2019 - 07:03am PT
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A couple pages back I'd said:
Marlow's historical deletions are terrifying.
RJ, you responded with:
I have a hard time believing that you, Roy, would really advocate that people on this site disregard other people's copyrights.
And I wouldn't advocate for it, RJ, not with regard to that material which Marlow posted: not at this juncture. So don't believe it, my friend.
My statement was purely a lament based on my prior hope that the many posts from Marlow and Grossman (and from the rest of us concerning historical photos and articles), fell under the fair use guidelines.
It is terrifying to me, in a brave new world/censorship kind of way.
But it is all water under the bridge at this point. To protect yourselves, you and CMAC have interpreted that this material does not fall under fair use guidelines, or that fair use guidelines are insufficient. Though I don't like it, I respect your choices based on your predicament and fully understand where we are with all of this today.
Whether or not your requests of us and your choice to enforce your long-standing rules on copyright is an overreaction on your part vis-ŕ-vis the threat you are under, isn't something on which I'm qualified to form an opinion. So I won't. And I do imagine this has to be a nightmare for you and Chris.
......................................................
Here's some irony, though, RJ:
It's only potentially infringing photos on the Supertopo photo hosting platform which you've asked for us to take down. Everything we've had in the [img] external hosting platforms, should you turn the switch back on at a later date, is still intact! The stuff deleted from your servers is gone forever.
So from the standpoint of retaining all of our work on various threads and trip reports, an argument could be made that we were better off hosting externally!
This is neither a criticism nor a condemnation, just an observation.
But, I'm really glad I held out on switching to the Supertopo photo upload resource until much later in my efforts at generating content here.
......................................................
We'll all get through this one way or another, together, as a community.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Apr 23, 2019 - 07:27am PT
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I bet we should go back to other hosting sites that we used for stuff on SuperTopo and delete the images that don't adhere to the ST terms of service. Not as easy as going through the photos directly uploaded to ST.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 23, 2019 - 08:00am PT
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Except for three things, MH2:
1) It still isn't all that clear to me in every case what is an infringement and what isn't.
2) RJ and CMAC may in the future reinterpret the allowances of fair use doctrine, legal precedent may change, and then a lot (most) of our stuff on those independent hosting sites could be reactivated, with less risk to our hosts.
3) If you look at the browser hack recommended up thread by JLP, that allows independent users to see those threads with [img] tags fully intact: RJ says he's fine with this.
For those reasons, I won't be deleting anything in my photobucket.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Apr 23, 2019 - 09:06am PT
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I couldn't even access my PB last time I tried because of having created the account with a now invalid email address.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Apr 23, 2019 - 10:15am PT
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Tarbuster, you are doing a good job of rationally responding to this issue. Keep up the good work.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Apr 23, 2019 - 10:46am PT
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fear, I hope that they can set up a precedent that would make a life of all other people easier.
I do too but it's not legal precedent but rather a failure of the legal system being too complex and hence, costing so much. It's easy for the unwashed members of the trade to straight up try and rob small players, like SuperTopo, for cash settlements.
No matter how absurd or unbelievable the claim might be, being sued is still extremely mentally and financially taxing for honest victims. Just the process is obtuse and exhausting.
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Trump
climber
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Apr 23, 2019 - 10:56am PT
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Law and government and all that sucks - it’s just too complicated and expensive. It should be easier and cheaper than all this because in my mind I think it should be easier. Definitely not my fault for not actually factually understanding how complicated and difficult getting people to work together in a survival of the fittest environment is. The fault lies somewhere else. It should be easier. I say so. Just because reality demonstrates that it’s not easier doesn’t mean that I’m wrong.
I don’t know. I think y’all are doing it right, even by trying to place the blame somewhere else, on lawyers and the legal system, or Cmac, or wherever. We just might not be actually factually right about the stuff we teach ourselves to believe.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 23, 2019 - 11:07am PT
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Law and government suck, but lawlessness also sucks. Go to Mogadishu if you want to experience the opposite.
What it comes down to is a small percentage of people suck, and because of their selfishness they don't care who they hurt or what they destroy. It can be seen here, it can be seen in the court systems, it will be experienced in the workplace or whatever tribe or microtribe you belong to. Sadly many people experience it in their own families to a greater or lesser extent.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 23, 2019 - 12:09pm PT
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"The following sites are great sources of copyright-free images:
Getty Open Content: Public domain art images from Getty collections."
Minimum charge for a download is $100 or so.
Posting brief excerpts of historical documents is perfectly legal. And written material/images that date back a century or more are generally copyright free. Thus there is no reason for deleting historical threads that conform to this standard.
But these kinds of threads may not draw younger climbers to this site.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 23, 2019 - 12:12pm PT
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Don Paul
Am I the only one who's having individual comments deleted? They were meant to be constructive. I'll keep my opinions to myself from now on about whether any of this is legal.
I noticed one in particular is gone because I read it and the link. I have not noticed any of mine gone. Just my uploads: good, bad, & questionable.
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A Essex
climber
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Apr 23, 2019 - 12:19pm PT
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Amen brother Trump, amen
da interwebs is sooo hards
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Apr 23, 2019 - 12:30pm PT
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Jesus f*#king Christ. Everything seems to be copyrighted; this is stupid. If I take a picture of my daughter in Disneyland can I show it to a friend or post it on Supertopo? Probably not, it might have some copyrighted image of Mickey in it.
So, if you take a picture of any employee of Disneyland, technically, you would need a signed release to post that photograph on line. Furthermore, since you would be on private property, it begs the question, who really does own the copyright?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Apr 23, 2019 - 12:38pm PT
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If you're not making money from your Disney photos I doubt the Disney lawyers would bother you. However, if they did, they'd likely request you simply remove the photos. The negative press of overzealous persecution of someone posting Walt's overhyped swampland would not be good for ticket sales.
So, they 'could' but most likely 'would not' bother you.
Now if you put Mickey on a tshirt and start selling them, you'd find yourself in court and a lot poorer very quickly.
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A Essex
climber
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Apr 23, 2019 - 01:01pm PT
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so many copyright lawyers on this little site!
I had no idea!
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Steve Rathbun
climber
Outer Lurkistan
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Apr 23, 2019 - 03:15pm PT
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But these kinds of threads may not draw younger climbers to this site.
I work with a bunch of younger climbers and you can trust me when I tell you they've never heard of this site....
ok. Nap time.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 23, 2019 - 03:20pm PT
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Mr. Rathbun said:
I work with a bunch of younger climbers and you can trust me when I tell you they've never heard of this site....
Thanks for the report from off the farm!
That's reassuring. So the newspaper stack, sans photos, dies with us. Berg heil!
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Apr 23, 2019 - 03:21pm PT
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Thanks, Roy. This does look like what I was hoping to see:
not once did John ever upload an image to this site. He simply hotlinked to images, and those links remain intact.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter, Little Rock
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Apr 23, 2019 - 05:41pm PT
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Jesus f*#king Christ. Everything seems to be copyrighted
Yup. Most manufacturer's have copyrighted their logos. So does this mean if one posts a photo wearing a TNF, MHW or Patagonia jacket, a TNF, MHW tent, ad naseum for any product/photo that shows a logo, the photo is non-compliant and will be deleted?
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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Apr 23, 2019 - 05:47pm PT
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The Ahwahnee, even though the Ahwahneechee should “own” that....Curry Village, Wawona...on and on. Bridwell use to almost always at some point on our trips would remark, “kill all the lawyers” of course he gave proper credit to Shakespeare for that. Ownership is an interesting subject with the Indigenous people....do you really OWN anything? Food for thought. And I mean no insult to my buddies here that practice law, I respect your minds and practices.
Peace
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter, Little Rock
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Apr 23, 2019 - 06:08pm PT
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I'm all for complying with forum rules to keep it alive and support CMac.
The forum has been neutered and stripped of most of the historical content. I don't know if the deleted content violated copyright law or not. Just seems this is no longer a "campfire" where folks could share thoughts and photos. People get banned, photos and content get deleted apparently at random.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 23, 2019 - 06:12pm PT
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What a drama queen you are ....
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter, Little Rock
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Apr 23, 2019 - 06:16pm PT
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What a drama queen you are ....
I know, right?
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 23, 2019 - 06:25pm PT
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Apr 23, 2019 - 12:09pm PT
"The following sites are great sources of copyright-free images:
Getty Open Content: Public domain art images from Getty collections."
Minimum charge for a download is $100 or so.
I wonder what the other sites mentioned charge?
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Apr 23, 2019 - 06:35pm PT
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The Commons by Flickr is free.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 23, 2019 - 06:55pm PT
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The following sites are great sources of copyright-free images:
Wikimedia is an excellent source. The millions of images there all have clear statements attached indicating that virtually any use is allowed with the only caveat being that however/wherever the image is used, credit must be given to the photographer.
For example, the image below of my current home town is on wikimedia with the following statement concerning use:
This file is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution 2.0 Generic license.
Attribution: James Blake aka Webgeer at en.wikipedia
You are free:
to share – to copy, distribute and transmit the work
to remix – to adapt the work
Under the following conditions:
attribution – You must give appropriate credit, provide a link to the license, and indicate if changes were made. You may do so in any reasonable manner, but not in any way that suggests the licensor endorses you or your use.
So, I am free to post the image here on ST, as long as I credit James Blake and add a note that the license is here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Powell_River_Aerial_2004.jpg
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Apr 23, 2019 - 08:11pm PT
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How does this compare to the free-for-all of meme and picture sharing on Facebook?
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