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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 13, 2019 - 04:07pm PT
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Most all of them will climb circles around our original gear from 40 years ago.
After not climbing ice between 1995 and 2012 the most dramatic change was from my old Chouinard X-tools to any modern tool... and even though I climbed in modern crampons during the Ouray part of the trip, my old Footfangs did fine, as long as I had those modern axes.
My gut reaction was that ice climbing was more like climbing now... back then it was more like house construction.
If I actually lived near good ice I'd buy the best modern gear, but I climb rock most of the year at a very nice place to do that... and have to travel much farther (even in state) to get to ice.
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RDB
Social climber
Great Basin
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2019 - 05:28pm PT
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I get what you are saying Ed.
What I found interesting is the newest cold weather clothing in the last 20 years has made huge inroads as to what is possible on winter ice and mixed. More flexible, warmer, water/weather proof and drier. Add to that the drop in weight on boots, crampons (combined a big deal) and tools with the ability now to wear very light weight gloves in pretty cold temps because you can drop your hand and shake out when ever you please and still be very secure.
LWT boots with good ankle flexibility does make ice climbing more rock climbing like. It aint just about front points and strong calves these days.
Half of ice climbing and avoiding a pump is getting the tools out of a good placement and getting good screws in. Modern screws make that easy. Tools even more so for any one that remembers the bomber tool that you couldn't get out (or in on bad ice) or chopping out a Warthog or Snarg. The best of the modern screws are almost as easy to place and remove, as placing a mid size cam in a perfect crack.
No hammer required on ice these days. As TMC mentioned no third tools required. I've soloed climbs where I carried 2 full size spare tools. Haven't carried a spare in over a decade. Seen lots of broken crampons with some brand are worse than others. But they all break. Seen very few modern broken tools or picks world wide when I was still keeping track.
Moderate climbs like Polar Circus even in -20C temps today take 4 or 5 hrs. by moderately skilled climbers. While "the best" still struggled at a long 1 day ascent into the early '80s.
One only need to carry a small fraction of gear and clothing weight today, while being faster, warmer and safer while working less than you were obliged to carry/do on Polar Circus in '79.
Leashless tools are a huge part of that equation. Less pump, allows lighter clothing with even more warmth. Better boots, lower profile crampons, better screws, skinny ropes, all with better technology, add up to a truly amazing level of saved energy over all on ice/mixed and winter climbing these days.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 14, 2019 - 04:00am PT
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Sorry for doubting you. Your statement that new crampons wernt much better than the Chiounard rigids made me assume you had not tried the modern stuff.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 14, 2019 - 04:03am PT
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Ok. I re read that post and obviously i interpreted it as a statement that modern design was not that important or better...
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mastadon
Trad climber
crack addict
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Apr 14, 2019 - 06:44am PT
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It’s amazing what we could do with those things. Montana ice 1972.
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Apr 14, 2019 - 07:19am PT
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True. Here is apicture of me at 19,000 feet in South America in 1979. New Zero north wall, SMC crampons, Terray boot, Whillans harness, Alaskan wool shirt, wool knickers, no helmet, Lowe pack...all sate of the art back then.
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RDB
Social climber
Great Basin
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2019 - 09:16am PT
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It’s amazing what we could do with those things.
all state of the art back then
Great photos guys! Thanks for adding them. Still amazes me how true both statements are.
Early on while working a crampon design project I took everything from SMC rigids and Chouinard Salewa clip-ons (not foot fangs because I thought the design premise dead), Chouinard/Salewa flexiable, and current versions of the Grivels (G12 and something I don't recall off hand), Petzl Darts/Dart twins and several older Black Diamonds (pre stainless) to Professors in Banff and ran laps on the first 5 pitches. Boots I used were a pair of old white Kolfachs first and then in a pair of the then new Batura. A lot of climbing, done quickly just as a comparison. Quarks were the hand tools.
I've since written a lot about how crampons should fit. Likely the most important thing I leaned about crampons from that effort. The toe bales and levers were literally the only thing that really needed improving. Rigid soled boots make a big difference on how a crampon climbs. As does the crampon design to make it "rigid" on the boot sole. But everyone making crampons had most of that figured out a while back.
It has taken decades to get back to the support of a Kolfach and a SMC rigid when fit right. But in other ways there was too much support in a plastic boot...like limited ankle flex. But as hard as it might be to believe the most recent Scarpa and La Sportiva boots (and other brands as well) with carbon fiber mid soles can climb as well or better. Many of the hinged crampons will act just like a rigid crampon climbing but way less likely to break all at the same time, if the steel construction is equal. Garbage in means garbage out on the quality of steel.
When it comes to ice climbing gear I don' always think the "new" version is better. I once had a long chat with a design engineer on how and why he was makin the prototypes I was climbing on. Much to my surprise and chagrin the engineer didn't climb. His connection to the climbing world was an string of email conversations with a very talented and "young" ice climber. So the tools they were developing were very specific to the tastes of that particular climber and the types of climbing he enjoyed. Nice tool, just didn't work for the majority of the buying market.
That tool was a commercial failure and eventually went through a major redesign.
Donini mentioned early "just about as useful" on the Chouinard piolet design.
Interesting comment only because of the source. The Piolet's design was proven capable from day one. Only the materials were lacking. But anyone who climbed with a bamboo tool surely found them very natural and secure to climb on anything but the steepest ice with.
Sure there are easier tools to climb with now. A Nomic or X Dream are faster, safer and stronger. But they are also limited by design as to use. A decent piolet will get you up most things in the mountains.
Rock climbing in general has gotten safer, less bold (Honnold being the rare exception). Cams, bolts, sticky rubber, helmets.
Ice climbing as well, with modern tools, modern screws, thin ropes, helmets.
Both types of climbing get laced with pro these days. Hanging on gear precludes needing the skill and strength to actually climb a pitch. Different games than the '70s for sure. Not better or worse, just different, as are the players for the most part.
One of the ice climbing pioneers, from the 1930's I think, said, "where there is snow one can go"
That has not changed and is even more true today. But something to be admired IMO of your only gear being a good pair of boots and a decent piolet (or pair of modern tools) to get things done in the mtns.
Gear used on the 2nd and 1st one day ascent of Slip Stream.
Slipstream on Snow Dome courtesy of Chris Scharf Photography. There is a team on the last step.
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Apr 14, 2019 - 10:04am PT
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Of all the changes in ice gear the one I appreciate the most are the screws. That changed the game instantly.
We all thought snargs were the greatest when they first appeared, anything was better than the screws of the day, then we quickly found all their limitations in the real world. Imagine climbers of today still having to twist in a screw with their ice tool whenever they wanted pro. No wonder so many thought ice climbing was to hard back then. Remember having to put Salewa screws inside your shirt to melt them out so you could use them on the next pitch?
Nice picture of Slipstream. Always wished I had done that one. So aesthetic.
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RDB
Social climber
Great Basin
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2019 - 10:26am PT
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Right on Norm. I remember using one of Fritz's wart hogs and not being able to get it in and then even harder to chop out. I think I broke the tip off finally. Re-sharpened it and we kept using it. Or the Salewa tubes that had to be pounded on enough to get them warm to just go into really cold Canadian. Inside the shirt? Remember the new "high tech" of a slotted screw that you could actually clean with the pick of your tool by cleaning the slot? Using a piolet as a screw driver or later the ratchet and the bigger tube screws?
I want to forget about using conduit for pro and rapping :)
On a trip to Canada we took one of every screw then on the market. The Grivel Helix changed my life :)
Thanks! Chris Scharf was nice enough to share them with me. Here is another.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 14, 2019 - 10:30am PT
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Can’t wait for the new lithium powered screws that melt their way in and out and self-clean!
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RDB
Social climber
Great Basin
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2019 - 10:49am PT
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Can’t wait for the new lithium powered screws that melt their way in and out and self-clean!
Newest aluminum tubes and steel cutting tips, Ti coated aren't far off :)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 14, 2019 - 11:17am PT
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Looking at the image of Slipstream with the belayer in the shadows just evokes my warm feelings for modern clothing. I agree that this has been a game changer for ice climbing, an activity I describe to my non-climbing friends as "climbing by hugging an giant icicle all day."
The mantra "wool is warm even when wet" still circulates in my head, though nowadays I don't have a lot of that old wool to wear. Silk base layers were disappointing, more of a fashion statement in a place where survival was more important than fashion.
It struck me once on a long walk back to the car one New Hampshire night when we had waited for friends to finish up and return down the Lion's Head (that particular time they were so late we didn't know if they were returning, I was rehearsing what I'd be telling one friend's mother).
Lost in my angry little world (the other climber had never ice climbed, and apparently learned going up Pinnacle Gully for their first, something I thought was irresponsible at the time) I realized that as cold as it was outside, my single layer of expedition Capeline, less than a quarter inch thick, was at body temperature on one side and the sweat was freezing on the other, keeping me more than comfortably warm.
I was, in fact, overdressed with that one garment, which was a mind expanding.
The purple and white Koflachs were great for climbing, they weren't great to hike in though, except for the feature that you could shed the inner boot and use the outers for fording threaded rivers of icy cold glaciers in the wayback.
In fact, the only new things I bought for my recent outings into the cold steep were clothing and boots...
...but my ancient Patagonia down "sweater" was at my side, as usual for ice climbing, to keep the belays, like the one in the image above, a bit warmer than they would otherwise be, perhaps if I weren't old and slow I'd not have needed even that artifact.
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Apr 14, 2019 - 11:35am PT
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Conduit, I did forget about that. I told an electrian friend of mine what we used it for. He said “YOU WHAT!!”
I rember rapping down Alpamayo on all sorts of conduit and broken homemade pickets. Then the screw fell out of my crampon and the front points turned into out the side points.
Somehow I’m here to talk about it though.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 14, 2019 - 11:44am PT
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^^^and camera gear!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 14, 2019 - 05:14pm PT
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Norm. that is a sick shot of you in South America. I also feel the screws were the game changer. the newest trend in crampons that I feel is very helpful is the extra long secondary points though Grivel had that at least as far back as the late 90's/ early 2000s? Rambocomps.
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Apr 14, 2019 - 06:16pm PT
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Thanks Tradman. Yeah screws and then crampon design. Automatic step in crampons sure made getting going in the morning much easier and quicker on an alpine stance.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 14, 2019 - 06:58pm PT
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the absolute biggest deal was the screws, then the comfy grips with knuckle protectors. foot fangs were good enough but heavy.
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RDB
Social climber
Great Basin
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2019 - 08:27pm PT
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Some serious history here :)
from:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=382806&tn=380
by "Wee Jock" aka Gordon Smith
"Jan 30, 2009 - 04:50am PT
Hi chaps, Mr Accamazzo in particular. I started ice-climbing with a Chouinard Frost - 60cm with a very pale wood handle(hickory or ash??) and a dinky little Salewa ice hammer (T shaped cross section for the pick!) Climbed things like the Chancer and Devil's Delight and Point Five and Zero and they worked fine. For me, though, Terrors were the bees knees ... great except for the bashed knuckles. If you got the rather odd swing correct - a downward pull with the knuckles hammering the ice - they worked great. Did the 2nd ascent of Bridalveil with your Mr Shea using terrors - that was fat, steep ice, was it not? Pick was way too soft, mind, and wore out very quickly. They had a tendency to stick, so we sharpened the top edges of the picks to 'cut' up and out. The axe was brilliant for going over the top of a bulge into powder snow but too light for hard ice. Often we carried two hammers and an axe, or at least THEY did - the folk with any money (not me). In 1978 I got hold of THE prototype Chacal from Luger Simond - He was going to make a straight drooped pick but I held the shaft of the axe while he cut holes in an ordinary curved pick blank reversed. Then he cut teeth and changed the angle of the end of the pick to make a point to penetrate the ice and lo, the first reversed banana pick. Worked brilliantly!! I still have my Dachstein mitts from the mid seventies, though I had to fight off the wife when she wanted to wear them to paint the house walls! Best mitts ever!!
Gordon Smith"
Look up the "wee jock" user name. Stuff is a lot like Jello's, Bachar's and some of the others posting here for historical importance.
How did the Chacel make it around the world in short order...and was used by the very best from every country? In the summer of 1980 at the Rassemblement International, a bi-annual event held in Chamonix, France, Simond gave every climber in attendance a Chacal and a rather traditional axe. Done deal at that point :)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 15, 2019 - 03:36am PT
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I was still climbing with my Chakal and a cassin anteres knock off chakal in 99..
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