Discussion Topic |
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 6, 2007 - 01:34am PT
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Many people feel Eldorado is climbed out, especially since the ban against indescriminate bolting has been in effect. That's not true, of course, as evidenced by recent sends of high-end trad climbs. For twenty years I had my eye on a line between the Naked Edge and the Diving Board, connecting solid features with relatively blank sections. After the fixed anchor review process was established, I figured you could still avoid all the hassle by just rapping the route and leaving a few nuts in crucial places to give something to go for in the run-outs. It would be kind of like sport-trad climbing, or something. At any rate, between the last two pitches of the Edge, and the Diving Board, there is a good crack and corner line (skinny crack, I've checked it out several times while climbing the Diving Board). Lower down, the line could follow a bolted pitch (already established) to the right of the first pitch of the Edge, which would lead to a lichen-covered "ramp" through the headwall right of the second pitch of the Edge. From there, the route would climb low-angle slabs up to a long run-out connecting to the bottom of the crack and corner mentioned above. Hopefully, some small pieces left in the crack would give a target to go for. The overall route would be in the 5.12-scary range. If the second removes any fixed nuts as he/she climbs, then there would be no need to apply for permission to do the route. The climbing would be great!
Note: It would probably be pretty horrendous/dangerous to try to do it onsight from the ground up.
Blue Line= Naked Edge
Red line = Between Heaven and Earth
Orange line= Diving Board
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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You could call it "Entre Terre et Ciel", but people might think that it's a bolted climb. Or that there were a lot of gastons required... :-)
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2007 - 01:54am PT
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You know there was ever only one Gaston, Mighty...
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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And his faithful sidekick, Tairraz. I saw Rebuffat speak once, and he was undoubtedly suave and debonair.
I've never climbed at Eldorado, but it's an attractive piece of rock. I wonder who else may have scoped the line, but not pursued it? Nice of you to post the idea, anyway.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nice prospect! How long have you been dreaming on that one Jello? I always thought that the preprotect clean option to allow a high standard free ascent is in many ways preferable to stuffing a bunch of bolts in and screwing up an otherwise worthwhile aid pitch. It just takes some patient effort and everybody can come out ahead. The inspection and lost adventure are always the offset but you could still have a wild time up there especially on your little gem!
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WBraun
climber
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Eh emmmm
Well looks steep, the rock is the wrong color, there are no holds up there, it'll never go, and it's impossible.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Don't know about the name my friend. There's already a longer route named Heaven and Earth (the name came from the Haruki Kadakawa epic bushido film).
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2007 - 11:49pm PT
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Since the early 7o's, Steve. Just never got around to it. I know it would be a compromise to rap and pre-place nuts, but you'd still be working with the natural features, and after you climbed, there would be no sign of passage, other than chalk marks.
Werner, you're right, of course - it's steep and there are no holds - impossible. But these days climbers do the impossible on a regular basis!
Hey Ron, haven't spoken for a while. MH got it right, the name is an homage to Rebuffat, an early hero. Where is this other route of which you speak? Is it yours? And, naturally, if someone did the route proposed, they would name it whatever they chose.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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I'm pretty sure Derek pre-inspected To RP or not to BE; as well the recent spate of Eldo Headpoints, by nature, often involved pre-inspection.
It's a very nice name Jeff, aesthetic and full of adventurous allusion and breathless imagery. And the line is just there under our noses.
I once wondered where the route "Overhanging Headwall" went; it seems it may have formed the first bit of your line.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jeff,
just seems like a long time. It was only a couple of months ago I "caught" you hanging around near one of my routes.
But the year ended on a tough note.
Indeed, the second to last day that Charlie and Chris and I climbed together was on a variation to Heaven and Earth. Sometime I'll show it to you.
But I remember those classy books too.
Do you remember the ad for "Midi" tobacco endorsed by "Gaston Rabbitfat" in the Sheridan Anderson calender?
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Rap bolting by moonlight with UV goggles.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Or broad daylight with diversionary tactics or suppresive fire,...
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
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Get someone else to rap in and place the nuts. Adventure preserved!
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2007 - 12:57am PT
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Tar, I think the headwall route is quite a ways to the right of the line marked (about 50').
Missed you at Charlie and Chris's memorial in Telluride, Ron. Figured the snowy weather kept you from making the perilous drive in your little sports vehicle. I'll look forward to being shown your Heaven and Earth route.
Router. If it was me, I wouldn't trust nuts placed by someone else on the climb. And I wouldn't be comfortable placing them for someone else, either. Too much at stake.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Hoh man, careful there Jeff and Steve, you spradsters are going to invoke the wrath of Healy!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Yeah Jeff, I think it was a certain editting session in Ogden that convinced me that a Z4 makes a poor sled, but it was the frozen block on my Ford that nixed things on said morning. Truly record cold.
So this interest in a decade old route, is this just nominal priority or are you feeling your oats again?
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2007 - 03:03pm PT
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Not feeling my oats, Ron. Nothing's changed, there. Still just a passionate interest in all things climbing.
Off White. At least the rock would be left un-marred, so it's a question of style, rather than ethics, IMO. An on-sight, ground-up attempt would most likely end with the climber just being "ground up".
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taco bill
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Scary 12 is probably not for me, but I do have one Eldo project in mind. I've been wanting to work out a girdle traverse from right of the bulge to top out around hot spur. Don't know if someone has already done it, but there have to be a million variations.
Riley- get this way and I'll be happy to give you the tour.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2007 - 03:13pm PT
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A rising girdle sounds fun, Taco. You could probably make it just about as hard or easy as you want. Would yield about 2,000' feet of climbing, don't you think?
Edit: There is a sort of natural strata-line to follow that cuts all the way across the wall. In the photo above it follows the dark line both right and left of the leftward angling orange line that indicates the start of the Diving Board.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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If a girdle is needed it matters little to me whether its going up or down.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Off-White, I have no particular problem with 'sprad' when applied to a project like this if it comes down to that or bolts. The issue I have with it is in folks thinking they are trad climbing in general just because they are using gear. Many kids these days go gym > sport > gear but never alter how they climb. Extended dogging on gear as a basic tactic to get up a route really isn't trad climbing and there have been an increasing number of accidents from folks assuming they can treat gear exactly like a bolt once it's placed.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2007 - 03:21pm PT
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We're not talking about the girdles you wear, PR. Don't you have those all fitted out with secret holsters and scabbards?
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Jeff: Yah, I was just free associating based on something Joe wrote somewhere that I recently read, offering more a quasi joke than a critique. I agree the pre-placed natural gear is preferable, and maximizes the options for future parties.
Joe: I was just ribbing you, you strike me as one of the stauncher clean climbing advocates out there with the chops to back it up too, not to mention the debate skills to work your side of the podium.
PR in a girdle with scabbards and holsters? Hmmm, is Ouch busy right now?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"A rising girdle sounds fun, Taco. You could probably make it just about as hard or easy as you want. Would yield about 2,000' feet of climbing, don't you think?
Edit: There is a sort of natural strata-line to follow that cuts all the way across the wall. In the photo above it follows the dark line both right and left of the leftward angling orange line that indicates the start of the Diving Board. "
Back in '76 my partner Jim Tangen-Foster and I put up a traverse section we called the 'Makanda Traverse' after our little crag town of Makanda in So.Ill. It's been a long time and can't quite picture exactly where it is, but we saw it from the start of Rosy Crucifixtion. It follows one of the strata lines Jeff is talking about and starts (more or less) down and left a bit from the start of R.C. and meets with and finishes on Yellow Spur. I remember sort of alternating no hands and no feet on it. I arrived on Yellow Spur out of rope with one stopper and made a directional anchor that held only towards R.C. for a semi-hanging belay. Jim came up and fell close the belay after the last piece due to a hold breaking and started to swing out in space doing a 180 degree rotation that, had it completed, would have had him out in space behind me and pulled the stopper. Fortunately for us the rope snagged in the notch of a shallow arete between the two of us and stopped him - we both were pretty shaken, but had a good time by the time we topped out on the Spur.
Off - no prob, I bait too easy...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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and that's just how those things get started,...
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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What "things" Ron? Do you mean internet misunderstandings, girdle traverses, or ludicrous slander about guys in girdles?
Online conversation without the added information of inflection and body language is really tough. For instance, I'm giving you a sly grin from 1200 miles away and you can't even see it.
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Tar,
Derek did pre-inspect "To RP . . .", although he always characterized it as a cursory look for the tiny gear placements that would be involved. To my knowledge it has not been repeated, and one thing that Derek was very proud of was the fact that when Wolfgang Gullich came to town, Derek could not get him to attempt a repeat. In hindsight one would think that Wolfgang was well up to the challenge.
Jello, that is a fantastic part of Eldo. I will probably never be up to your proposed route, but I love climbing the Diving Board, and have done the Edge more than once (have never managed the "Backstroke Move" free.) That section of Redgarden feels like being on a big wall.
Off topic question to the Master: have you ever done
Mouse-ka-tears? It has been in this year. Ice climbing in Eldo. is a trip!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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nor can you see mine,...
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2007 - 03:02am PT
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Hey, Hank, how's it hangin', old man? -Jeff
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 10, 2007 - 11:53am PT
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Hey Hank,
Weren't you heating up yer boiler to do RP at one point?
I remember we talked briefly about Derek's recommendation of a required perlon protection point...
-Roy
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 10, 2007 - 11:05pm PT
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Way tah call it out Smokey!
Dats right folks, you heard it here at the Taco; we ain't done with Eldo yet, nope.
And furthermore, while I'm at it, here's a cute 'lil pick of The Hankster, just to put some face to the conversation.
(Sorry Hank, but it's whut I do best)
Taco Belles, eat yer hearts out.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2007 - 02:03am PT
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Hank, after you cruise RP, why don't you get on up and take a look at my route suggestion? You're just the sort of lad for it!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 11, 2007 - 02:09am PT
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Werd.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 11, 2007 - 12:11pm PT
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Hank,
That shot came from that season here in Boulder when we all went out routinely cuttin' the rug in the clubs, en masse...
It was taken the morning after this one:
No worries bro, the archival pleasure's all mine; ...mine, mine, mine.
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flamer
Trad climber
denver
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Feb 11, 2007 - 12:12pm PT
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Are those friendship bracelets...rasta boy?
I'd still climb with you hank....
josh
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 11, 2007 - 07:45pm PT
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This somewhere in Eldorado canyon I have no clue what route. Ron Kauk leading & John Bachar belaying. Jello and Tarbuster are probably at the base screaming profanities at them.
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North Eldo
climber
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Feb 11, 2007 - 09:53pm PT
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Hmmmm...Looks more like p2 (guide book p3) of Kings X to me...
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2007 - 10:24pm PT
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Agreed, King's X
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2007 - 12:57am PT
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's OK, Hank. You don't have to be smart when you're talented and good lookin'.
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Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
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Feb 15, 2007 - 09:49am PT
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Jello,
Your route sounds a lot like Centaur to me....Getting through the "great" rock band that protects Diving Board would be exciting. I have often wondered if you could link the start of Naked Edge with the finish of Diving board. Getting around the edge of the buttress would be exciting.
It would be rad if someone like Matt Segal or another "next gen" Boulder climber went for it ground up.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 15, 2007 - 10:04am PT
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I was waiting for Hankster to say,"Jeff, I didn't realize you were so smart!"
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 15, 2007 - 10:11pm PT
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That's OK Hankster, I give Jeff enough guff for both of us.
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L
climber
The City of Lost Angels
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Feb 16, 2007 - 03:07pm PT
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Bump for Matt M
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kev
climber
CA
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Feb 17, 2007 - 05:14pm PT
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bump - this is climbing related....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 19, 2007 - 05:45am PT
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While we're talking Eldorado, I tracked down this description on MP about a route called the 'Monument' in the cave:
Feeling burly? Dig slippery cave climbing? This hyper-visible line climbs left to right out of the back of the grotty cave on the south face of the Whale's [Tail], right above the main trail to Redgarden. Either boulder up (slightly heinous) or stick clip the first bolt and continue right on underclings and strange spikes to the lip of the cave. Going left past another bolt to finish yields a fine 13a, while the standard route goes up and slightly right via the crack/layback.
Now it's been way, way too many years, but back in the mid-70's we tried to put up a line from the pigeon nest/hole up in the back left of the cave that then went directly over the exact center of the cave roof and out the opening on the right. I'm curious if this is the same line and if the Monument crosses the top of the roof of the cave? Glad to see someone ended up getting on it if it is...
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joane
climber
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Feb 19, 2007 - 08:32am PT
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question/comment from an amateur--i love the name because it makes me think that if i tried following your new line for this climb, i'd be in between heaven and earth going up and in reaching the end definitely in heaven. so it's a nice invitation in the name itself.
if and after getting to the start point of your new climb idea in any other fashion than rapping down, would you say that that is an overhanging bulge beneath what you guys are calling the lichen ramp? i think so from the photo-it reminds of this great fun route i followed up in the Barberine rock climbing area around Chamonix a few years ago called "Bon Voyage" put up by and described in the climbing guide book of many such great climbs there with many many put up by and described by him as well-- Jon de Montjoye. The 4th pitch of that climb had some of what he describes as 5.10b overhanging bulges which looked kind of like that spot in your photo.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2007 - 02:59pm PT
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Anxiously awaiting the TR, Hankster.
joane- there are many different climbs that give access to the start of the Naked Edge or the proposed line, I just didn't draw them in.
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joane
climber
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Feb 25, 2007 - 03:12pm PT
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So just for the sake of curiosity, how many pitches to the start of your variation? Remember I have no idea of what's out there and the route section of ST shows like 200 routes but none of them the "Naked Edge" nor "Eldorado " as an area. I'm sure it's simple to find, but even simpler is to ask you!
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2007 - 03:15pm PT
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joane- it's about three pitches up to the start of the Naked Edge. You can probably find more info about Eldorado, which is in Colorado, at www.summitpost.org.
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joane
climber
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Feb 25, 2007 - 04:20pm PT
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Thanks!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 25, 2007 - 07:31pm PT
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www.mountainproject.com
-Also has a gazillion first hand accounts of most of the Eldo routes; I've done a great deal of them and read nearly all first hand descriptions of my favorite routes. Sometimes people get highly detailed, even to excess, so this is a good place to look stuff over.
Here's "The Edge":
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/colorado/boulder/eldorado_canyon_sp/105748786
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jun 25, 2015 - 01:47pm PT
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Jesus, What a travesty.
Adventure now has to be "approved".
Guess how loose you are with machine gunning bolts in an area CAN have a negative effect on others use in said area....
So if one were to put up a route without "permission", would it be removed? Would climbing be banned if this happened a lot?
Man, just looking at that link for applications makes me want to puke.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jun 25, 2015 - 02:20pm PT
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Mucci, I suspect that it has a history in conflict and that this was some sort of accommodation of process.
I don't see the style of how the bolts go in in the doc.
Is it 10 bolts in 1 pitch?
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jun 25, 2015 - 02:49pm PT
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Munge-
The doc did not reference the method of installation.
However, the ban was brought on by massive grid bolting with machines.
Hence, the application process.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jun 25, 2015 - 03:39pm PT
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However, the ban was brought on by massive grid bolting with machines.
No, the ban was brought on by conflicts between climbers, over how to develop the diminishing amount of rock left in Eldorado Canyon State Park. Certain bolts were installed, chopped, re-installed, re-chopped, until the rangers banned all new bolting. They could have banned all climbing; we're lucky. Most of the Utah state park system is closed to climbing.
When the current system first appeared there was plenty of mucci-style indignation, on both sides. These days there are no sides; everyone's moved on, there's a consensus over new routes, respect for others' points of view. Works OK.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jun 25, 2015 - 04:10pm PT
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Crunch-
Maybe I should have expanded on the many ways the ban came to be?
It was machines doing the bolting, chipping, and pockets.
This lead to the divide.
Rampant destruction with the drill. I see it happening where I climb as well.
Where do you stand on that style of impact?
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jun 25, 2015 - 09:04pm PT
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mucci, there were local Boulder City park and Boulder County Park bans on bolting enacted in the late 1980s. These resulted from different groups of climbers with different ideas of how to develop new routes on the diminishing supply of new rock. Some places bolting worked well (Industrial Wall) while other places new sport routes were placed close to existing trad routes. This upset people; there was conflict. In Eldorado State Park, the then rangers, recognizing that climbing was a major use of the park, did not want to simply ban bolting, because they felt this would create a museum piece of a climbing area. They negotiated with local climbers to create some kind of process by which local climbers could approve, or not approve any new proposed bolts:
"The Action Committee for Eldorado (ACE) was organized and incorporated in 1992 as a result of then head ranger Bob Toll's request to create a process that would allow the climbing community to approve or disapprove the addition of new fixed protection in the Park.
In the late 1980s, the placement of bolts became a topic of controversy in the Boulder area. During that time, Boulder Mountain Parks and City and County Open Space prohibited the placement of new bolts. Eldorado also saw its share of controversy when certain climbers, acting without the support of the climbing community, added additional bolts to existing routes, replaced pitons with bolts, and moved existing bolts. These actions substantially changed certain climbs and enraged many local climbers. As a result of this well-meant, but misdirected effort, some of the new bolts were chopped. Bob Toll approached several active local climbers and informed them that the Park was willing to work with the climbing community on these issues. The Park's position was that Eldorado belonged to all climbers and that individuals could no longer be permitted to take unilateral actions that affected all climbers without community input.
To comply with the Park's request, ACE was organized. ACE designed the fixed hardware review process, which provides the climbing community with the opportunity to approve or disapprove of proposals to establish new routes requiring fixed gear and to change existing climbing routes. ACE's role is to advise the Park as to the opinion of the local climbing community; the final decision on whether to approve the proposal rests with the Park. To obtain maximum feedback and support from the climbing community, the ACE Board of Directors is comprised of representatives from the Access Fund, the American Alpine Club, the American Mountain Guides Association, and the Colorado Mountain Club, as well as unaffiliated members drawn from the climbing community."
http://aceeldo.org/about/history.php
So, the Fixed Hardware Review Committee process is what we have. It's far from perfect, it can be a pain in the ass, it's likely not a great model for areas without large nearby climbing populations. But hey, it works pretty well. And over the last 3 decades conflicts and argument over bolts and new routes have pretty much vanished. Recently, the Boulder Parks rangers (a very conservative bunch) even opened up their lands to some limited bolting, as a direct result of seeing how well the Eldo system has been working.
The debate over sport versus trad is long since over, both around Boulder and most other places. The debate is now more like, climbers versus other user groups. Sport bolting is appropriate some crags, especially on roadside crags, limestone, etc. It is grossly inappropriate other places, particularly in the wilder, more remote areas, or where heavy climbing activity would cause conflicts with other users, and of course on cliffs with good cracks.
Where do I stand? I try to figure out where the relevant land managers stand, go from there.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jun 25, 2015 - 09:58pm PT
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Thanks for the run down crunch.
Cheers
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jun 25, 2015 - 10:59pm PT
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so this isn't a remote crag, is 10 bolts in a pitch meant to be 'safe' or is there a splitting of the baby with the bath water on the number of bolts?
I'm asking genuinely from a place of ignorance on how the number of bolts is determined.
I mean if the route is done TD, it better not be run out in any way shape or form. Gear placements should be bomber.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Jun 30, 2015 - 08:38pm PT
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If you're so incensed about the process used in Eldo for establishing new routes that have bolts, check out the link that Greggonator supplied. Anyone can see that multiple viewpoints are put in writing in the application. Factors for putting in the route, factors against, etc. The best thing about the process is that it actually works very well. It allows for a relatively small amount of new route development with bolts, and also the occasional new bolt anchor replacing an old tree anchor or something similar.
When I first moved to Boulder in the late 80's there was a lot of bickering and general nastiness going on, much of it centered around Eldo. I don't ever hear people complain about this current process, although I'm sure not everyone agrees with every single bolt. It truly is a model of how climbers and land managers can work together to maintain a special climbing area.
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