Magnetic North Pole: What A Long Strange Trip It's Been (OT)

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looks easy from here

climber
Santa Cruzish
Feb 10, 2019 - 05:12pm PT
Aw, man. Now I'm bummed. I'm just a bit (relatively) south of you. Not sure why NOAA lied to me. But it's still showing me 0° when I go back to that site.

Oh well. If this is the biggest problem in my life right now I guess I'm living pretty well.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Feb 10, 2019 - 05:17pm PT
Did the NOAA website prompt you to enter your current location?

I thought maybe you were stuck in Missouri or Arkansas and was thinking you probably miss Santa Cruz ;-)
looks easy from here

climber
Santa Cruzish
Feb 10, 2019 - 07:03pm PT
No. I figured Big Brother was watching and just tapped into my phone's gps. But you're right that I would be missing the Best Coast if I were on the actual 0° line. I much prefer being here and 13° off (having lived in Texas for 3 years, gig 'em!)
Tobia

Social climber
Denial
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2019 - 06:31am PT
tuolumne_tradster,

The line of declination doesn't move fast as you stated, but that is relative to your location.

What has moved drastically is the 0° line of declination. If you compare where the was on your 1934 map you can see it was off the East Coast of Fla on the 30° line of Latitude in North America.

The map below, the most current (February 2019) puts it west of the Mississippi River, a change of 700 +- miles.
Credit: NOAA
brotherbbock

climber
So-Cal
Feb 11, 2019 - 08:08am PT
It's the nephilim.

They are trying to confuse us on purpose because we are too close to the entrance to the hollow earth.

We need to stop diddling around the north pole.
TwistedCrank

climber
Released into general population, Idaho
Feb 11, 2019 - 08:18am PT
I miss the flat earth.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Feb 11, 2019 - 08:24am PT
Tobia: yes, good point. BTW, thanks for posting this thread. Did you hear the NPR ScienceFriday podcast on age of the earth's solid core last Friday (2/8/19)?

https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/the-earths-core-might-be-younger-than-scientists-thought/

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41561-018-0288-0.

Young inner core inferred from Ediacaran ultra-low geomagnetic field intensity
Richard K. Bono, John A. Tarduno, Francis Nimmo & Rory D. Cottrell
Nature Geoscience volume 12, pages 143–147 (2019)

brotherbbock....it's called "secular" variation...nothing to do with the bible ;-(
looks easy from here

climber
Santa Cruzish
Feb 11, 2019 - 09:17am PT
Well, turns out I'm the dummy, not NOAA. I had my phone's location turned off, so it just defaulted to 0°. Oops.
Credit: looks easy from here
Nick Danger

Ice climber
Arvada, CO
Feb 11, 2019 - 09:43am PT
Tuolumne tradster, your posts are exceptionally well informed and documented - thanks dude. I very much appreciate your posted references.
-Nick
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Feb 11, 2019 - 12:27pm PT
Thanks man. I appreciate it. I was a Paleomagician in a former life, so this thread caught my eye.

neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Feb 11, 2019 - 03:36pm PT
hey there say, tobia... nice to hear from you...
say, thanks for the share...

and, to everyone... will go read all this, soon as i can...

:)

interesting, :O

:)
Tobia

Social climber
Denial
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2019 - 04:47am PT
Tuolumne tradster,

I appreciate your thorough explanation of why the shifting occurs and agree with Nick about your writing.

I have long been interested in navigation, since navigating seismic vessels in the Gulf of Mexico and working in a nautical instrument repair shop and Chart House in New Orleans.

Hi, Neebee!
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Feb 13, 2019 - 09:02am PT
Tobia: thanks man. That's very interesting. I suspect you've seen a few of these...


https://www.hakaimagazine.com/news/inventor-seismic-air-gun-trying-supplant-his-controversial-creation/

In another former life, I spent time on these offshore rigs near Point Arguello, in S California...

Scanned slide of Global Marine Coral Sea drill ship...


Key Drill Jackup rig...


Heli-taxi landing...
Tobia

Social climber
Denial
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2019 - 12:58pm PT
Ahh, another "duddle bugger"!
The air cannons, firing every 8 seconds are still ringing in my ears.
Your bubbles are bigger than mine.
Your bubbles are bigger than mine.
Credit: Tobia
I worked for ONI, who also owned PHI, Petroleum Helicopter Services. I worked out of LA mainly but sometimes down to Miami and west to Corpus Christi. Once Lorain C was developed and later GPS, there was no need for ONI. In 1980-1981 it was good money. Trying to keep the kinks out of the cables with course changes was a pain. The shrimp boats cutting the cables in half, made for excitement as well. Some were not so bad, they would trade
bushels and bushels of shrimp for diesel fuel.

Working at Baker Lyman & Co. in New Orleans repairing compasses, sextants, and the like is what built my interest. That was 1976. All those chronometers on the shelf and the little Dutchman working on them was golden. I am not sure when the Quartz chronometers ended the day of the spring type, but it was it was after I left.

My favorite boats were any of the Seal Fleet, I was assigned to this o...
My favorite boats were any of the Seal Fleet, I was assigned to this one for most of my work.
Credit: Tobia
PHI's home office was in Houma LA. At that time they were the largest ...
PHI's home office was in Houma LA. At that time they were the largest (private) helicopter service in the world.
Credit: Tobia
Spare cable on helo pad.
Spare cable on helo pad.
Credit: Tobia

Riding around in the Gulf of Mexico from oil rig to oil rig was fun. Those
Vietnam Veteran pilots were crazy, most navigated by the oil rig numbers.
Credit: Tobia
Credit: Tobia
I started out looking for a job as a crane operator on a rig, but the ONI job was a lot better paying and I went straight to navigation, no roustabout or rough necking for me.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Feb 13, 2019 - 05:04pm PT
Thanks for sharing those photos Tobia...brought back memories for me. Ya PHI, that was the outfit that ran the heli service out to the rigs. You mentioned crane operators...I remember one night one of the crane operators was killed on the Key Drill jackup when he brought a load right down on top of himself.

I was a rig Geo back then. I'd go out to the rigs for a week at a time to QA/QC and interpret geophysical logs run by Schlumberger or one of the other logging contractors in the early 80s.

Here's a merging of those two data sets, geophysical logs and reflection seismic...
Kligfield

Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
Feb 13, 2019 - 07:26pm PT
Here are some additional observations and facts regarding magnetic field reversals. Scientific peer-reviewed journal articles to back up these assertions can be provided upon request.

(1) The duration of a magnetic field reversal is about 10,000 years. The transition begins with an increased polar wandering of 4,000 years, followed by a 2,000 year "flip" of N to S, or S to N, followed by another 4,000 years of unstable polar wandering.

(2) The mathematical description of the earth's magnetic field as a dipole is only a portion of the complete mathematical description. In the oblate spheroidal coordinate system used for the earth, the actual field is composed of a "dipole" component [which most people have heard about] and additional higher frequency components such as the quadrapole and higher order components. These latter characterizations are referred to as the "non-dipole" field component of the total earth magnetic field.

(3) during a magnetic field reversal, the polar wander path does not "FLIP" but instead what happens is that the dipole portion of the field decreases towards zero, and then increases the other way with a reversed polarity. Effectively the dipole portion of the N pole shrinks from positive to zero and then grows out in the opposite polarity, i.e., from zero to negative.

(4) During the 2,000 year period in which the dipole component shrinks towards zero, the non-dipole portion of the field is still active. However, being a quadrapole, or even octupole field, it is not only in the northern and southern hemispheres but exists in smaller N-S pole combinations in different portions of the earth. So the apparent polar wander that is talked about in earlier posts on this site is the result of the dying out of the main field and the concurrent taking over of the higher order dipole field portions--producing the apparent polar wander.

(5) Speculation that we are entering into a new field reversal is not supported by any modern evidence. Thus it would not be appropriate to claim that global warming and or climate change is related at this moment in time to a field reversal. that connection appears incorrect by the data.

(6) During field reversals, mass extinctions do indeed and have been shown to occur--just not in the large species fossil record. Obviously not with Dinosaurs and other mammals. Rather, the single celled organsisms such as foraminifera and other critters exposed to higher doses of cosmic rays have suffered declines in their populations during periods of magnetic field reversals. The scientific record on this is complicated and it is not reasonable to arrive at sweeping conlcusions about this topic without additional research.

Finally, it is indeed remarkable, that such a discussion thread as this one would occur on SuperTopo! It's rewarding to know that climbers have some interest in this type of topic.

One more--there is an earlier thread somewhere on Supertopo about "what are those holes on El Capitan" that possited that the holes were paleomagnetic sample cores drilled into the granite facies on the side of El Cap and elsewhere in the valley. Although not directly related to this current discussion of polar wandering and magnetic field reversals, some of the basic principals of paleomagetism were discussed by this earlier thread.
del cross

climber
Feb 13, 2019 - 07:50pm PT
(3) during a magnetic field reversal, the polar wander path does not "FLIP" but instead what happens is that the dipole portion of the field decreases towards zero, and then increases the other way with a reversed polarity. Effectively the dipole portion of the N pole shrinks from positive to zero and then grows out in the opposite polarity, i.e., from zero to negative.

That describes a flip. A slow flip by human time scales but still a flip.


Finally, it is indeed remarkable, that such a discussion thread as this one would occur on SuperTopo! It's rewarding to know that climbers have some interest in this type of topic.

Not really. Supertaco is far from being a climbing oriented website. If it were I wouldn't come here anymore. It's a general news and current interest website that also features some climbing related topics. It's pretty close to clicking on CNN or something like that if you want to know what's going on, but with a more personal touch. You can ask the tacos how to fix your car or something like that.
Timid TopRope

Social climber
the land of Pale Ale
Feb 13, 2019 - 07:53pm PT
Me, I'm just thankful I live on a planet with a molten core.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Feb 14, 2019 - 11:56am PT
Here's how a reverse magnetic polarity was detected in 3-4 million year old shallow marine deposits of the Purisima Formation at Opal Cliffs beach in Santa Cruz, CA. In this case it is a detrital remnant magnetism (DRM) acquired during the Gilbert reverse magnetic polarity epoch...

Normal polarity sample...


Reverse polarity sample...


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0012821X86901986

https://www.arlis.org/docs/vol1/164589542.pdf

Kligfield

Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
Feb 14, 2019 - 04:36pm PT
The AF demagnetization data provided above is an example of establishing the stable remanence direction (declination and inclination) of a sedimentary rock. The term "viscous" remanent magnetization refers to the "time dependent" change in the remanence vector subsequent to acquisition of the depositional remanent magnetization (DRM). The case shown only illustrates a particular state of the magnetic field, in this case a reversed state.

Other studies that span the period of a magnetic field reversal show how the declination and inclination vary at different stratigraphic levels starting at the lower (older) strata, continuing through the intermediate levels which sample the time of the magnetic pole reversal transition zone, and end in the upper (younger) strata.

The time frames involved in all these studies average about 10,000 years with the most rate of change in field direction within a 2,000 year period. Given that we don't have historical records greater than these time spans, the evidence is obtained from geological records and absolute age dating. But NONE of these studies indicates that anything serious (such as a full field reversal) will occur in time frames that coincide with modern effects of humans on the planet. In any case it's still an active area of research.
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