Vandalism at JTree

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Messages 1 - 61 of total 61 in this topic
jromma

Sport climber
CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 12, 2019 - 09:14am PT
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/11/us/joshua-trees-cut-down.html

who would do this :(
LowNRight

Trad climber
CA
Jan 12, 2019 - 09:22am PT
10% of the population.
originalpmac

Mountain climber
Timbers of Fennario
Jan 12, 2019 - 09:59am PT
Bunch of savages. More than likely, Trump supporters who b!tch about 'entitled liberals'
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 12, 2019 - 10:37am PT
Millenials think they are just as free to do any stoopid thing that comes into their vacuous
noggins as any Billy Bob or Festus.
rincon

climber
Coarsegold
Jan 12, 2019 - 10:39am PT
Those trees look like they fell over naturally to me.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 12, 2019 - 10:40am PT
It’s ISIS getting into our Country through ports of entry.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 12, 2019 - 10:43am PT
10% of the population.
10% do it with intent, another 80% accomplish the same thing with good intentions, the remaining 10% are losing the battle to protect what's left of the pretty places.
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Jan 12, 2019 - 11:01am PT
who would do this :(
Maybe someone with agenda using false flag tactics?
Just saying I've seen numerous examples of forest fire fighters ending up being the ones who start the fire.
I've spent a lot of time in the last 2 years rolling around the IV mostly in the areas where guns and off road vehicles rule and I don't see this.
A New York Times "reporter" shows up and this is found.
If it was just some yahoo guy; "F" that dude. If it is someone promoting an agenda showing the need for the NPS in Park, that person will rot in hell.
johntp

Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
Jan 12, 2019 - 11:07am PT
The simple fact is that urbanization has reached JT, with all the shitheads that come with it. Several years ago a friend and I went up rattlesnake canyon; graffiti was everywhere. F*#king morons.

No need to turn this thread political. The perps are mostly low life kidz that have no respect for anything.
KP Ariza

climber
SCC
Jan 12, 2019 - 11:10am PT
.Those trees look like they fell over naturally to me.

I thought the same thing. I can’t figure out how a tree of that size could be snapped in half like a match stick.
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Jan 12, 2019 - 11:17am PT
I walked up Rattlesnake Canyon in March 2018 trying to get to Willow Hole and I didn't see graffiti everywhere. Not saying it is not there (I've seen the photos), but someone saying this is proof it was loco locals who knocked over the Joshua Trees is a bit of stretch. You don't know who or knocked over these trees, I would bet it someone with an agenda.
Chaz

Trad climber
Jan 12, 2019 - 11:18am PT
We know it never would have happened if the Visitor Center had been open.
johntp

Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
Jan 12, 2019 - 11:56am PT
I walked up Rattlesnake Canyon in March 2018

We were there in maybe April 2016. There was graffiti on many boulders up to a half mile into the canyon, which lead the NP to close the trail.

Curious if the NP cleaned it up.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 12, 2019 - 12:08pm PT
Bunch of savages.

HEY!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 12, 2019 - 01:09pm PT
^^^ Re-education camps. They work well in China.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 12, 2019 - 01:16pm PT

"Everything's fine....nothing happening here....it's all a bunch of fake news...."
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Jan 12, 2019 - 02:43pm PT
I realize my eyesight isn't 20/20, but it doesn't look like a chainsaw was responsible and I don't see tire tracks as if a vehicle pushed the tree over. The author of the article says trees were knocked over so vandals could get their vehicles through the area, but besides that one tree anyone could go around the area looks pretty open. Is this just more "yellow journalism/hype"?
Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Jan 12, 2019 - 02:45pm PT
How did that help them get their car around it?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 12, 2019 - 02:51pm PT
Bat, you’re not really trying to analyze this logically, are you?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 12, 2019 - 03:56pm PT
Yes, there's nothing wrong at JT...the shutdown has been a net positive. Tell a friend, and bring your chainsaw & a 4x4!
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Jan 12, 2019 - 04:04pm PT
Thoughtful comment, great logic. You'd make an excellent news commentator. :)
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 12, 2019 - 04:15pm PT
Sorry for the snark, Lynne. Just a bit tired of the shoulder shrugging that's been prevalent amongst several here regarding the shutdown and the impacts on JT. The anecdotal experiences of a few are being projected to create an impression that all of the negative media coverage is complete lefty hype. As usual, there is truth in this that goes both ways.
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Jan 12, 2019 - 04:28pm PT
When Joshua trees die they seem to fall over from the ground leaving the top of the roots showing. Many big branches may break and fall but does the trunk? Could the trees have been subjected to the force of a truck pulling on a chain wrapped around the trunk?
Just speculating.
What do locals have to say?
Stewart Johnson

Mountain climber
lake forest
Jan 12, 2019 - 04:30pm PT
That tree looks like it’s been like that for awhile
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Jan 12, 2019 - 04:39pm PT
No, actually that break looks fresh. How it happened I have no idea.
jeff constine

Trad climber
Ao Namao
Jan 12, 2019 - 04:49pm PT
I with Rincon on this, trees feel over naturally. I do not see any tire tracks ether nor footprints. Just more fake news sensationalism.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 12, 2019 - 04:57pm PT
That photo is hardly forensic in quality, angle of view, or any other metric including DATE!
Besides, the bumper on my rig is 3’ in front of my tires so it could easily knock that over
without tire marks being visible in that shot.
A reputable source said at least one tree was chainsawed. That hardly takes a Sherlock
Holmes to discern. This the stoopidest discussion in a while, and that’s a low bar here.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 12, 2019 - 05:00pm PT
Yep, everything's fine! JT has sustained no damage. This is an excellent reason to abolish the NPS, so we can ride our ATV's anywhere we want, bolt the sh#t out of the place, and do our 'personal expression' art everywhere.
Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Jan 12, 2019 - 05:08pm PT
I think there is plenty of d#@&%ery going on at JT, I saw some pictures of a group parked between boulders obviously off the main road and illegal and a few tire tracks going about a hundred feet off the road. There are plenty of examples it's just that this close up of a tipped over J tree with no other visual context is pretty weak when there are so many other examples.
Its just poor journalism.
Climberdude

Trad climber
Clovis, CA
Jan 12, 2019 - 06:14pm PT
I went out to a BLM wilderness study area today. This area has been proposed as wilderness and is managed as such by the BLM. I saw total lawlessness. People driving into the area on old roads despite markers across the road indicating that the area is closed to motorized vehicles. Bullets flying over my head despite numerous warnings not to fire bullets when people are present. People are so stupid. So much for the promise that people will follow the rules when the "government" is not present. This is so fu#ked!
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Jan 12, 2019 - 06:17pm PT
Climberdude, what area was this?
Climberdude

Trad climber
Clovis, CA
Jan 12, 2019 - 06:28pm PT
Panoche Hills North Wilderness Study Area (WSA), which is just west of I-5 in Fresno County. I realize that target shooting has been going on in this entire area for a long time. I have no problem with people out to have fun target shooting. What I do have a problem with is bullets flying over my head in a WSA more than 150 yards from the road, which is definitely not allowed. West of the road you are allowed to do target shooting, east of the road you should not be target shooting since that is a WSA zone.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 12, 2019 - 07:26pm PT
Jody, my only point is that the truth is somewhere in between, and as usual, those with ideologic views have coalesced around each other, supporting each other's viewpoints. Both those on the Right and the Left are guilty of skewing their perceptions of this problem according to their political views.
Paul Martzen

Trad climber
Fresno
Jan 12, 2019 - 08:15pm PT
I was wondering what supertopo folks thought of that photo. I see no chips, no saw marks, no tire tracks. It is a very rough break and looks to me natural. A better photo might tell a different story, but I suspect not.

This article shows the same photo but gives other information that seems more plausible, such as a photo of actual tire tracks to an out of bounds campsite.
https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2019/01/joshua-tree-national-park-close-cleanup-repairs-vandalism-illegal-roads

The other photo I have seen of supposed vandalism is high off the ground and even more ragged and seems even more likely to be a natural failure.

On the other hand, since the shutdown, I have noticed a lot of cottonwood branches all over the ground on two properties that I deal with. Coincidence???
Russ Walling

Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
Jan 12, 2019 - 08:24pm PT
A point not to forget is that even with the standard Gestapo like presence, this stuff happens because people are idiots. A joshua tree getting chainsawed could and does happen even when the park is fully funded... same with the driving across the desert sh#t and illegal camping. It happens all the time out here.

And for the record, every pic I have seen of downed joshua trees in the latest lazy media barrage has been of a tree that has succumbed to its demise in its natural timeframe. Blown over or fell over. No need for extensive CSI on those pics. It’s bullsh#t.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 12, 2019 - 09:11pm PT

Damn, mine only has a Dremel on the end.
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Jan 12, 2019 - 09:36pm PT
Years back while in HVCG a storm toppled a large joshua tree. It posed no safety issue lying there on its side with half the roots pulled up. It probably would have gone on living and growing with minimal impact to the usability of the site it was next to. A couple days later a park service grader came through and unceremoniously broke it up and dragged the carcass away.

I walked away with a fresh understanding of how the park service views the park compared to the reverence visitors are required to treat it with. My own guess is that at times when the rules and policies go beyond stupid that there can be a bit of a backlash.
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Jan 13, 2019 - 07:16am PT
So, I've seen some pics from a few years ago of when DB's did some graffiti, but I've yet to see any pics from this recent "rash" of vandalism and disrespect that come anywhere close to showing a problem. Anyone got any legit photos? I'm all for piling on the stOOOpid American trashing public when it's deserved, but it would be good to see some evidence. Pics, anyone?

BAd
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 13, 2019 - 07:43am PT
The plural of anecdote is not data.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 13, 2019 - 07:48am PT
Gud one, Ap!
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Jan 13, 2019 - 08:10am PT

The plural of anecdote is not data.

Oh that is good. I'm going to steal it for use elsewhere.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jan 13, 2019 - 02:50pm PT
Maybe the Joshua Trees are killing themselves over the Federal shutdown, but I was in Yosemite last week, and there was actual, tangible damage that was done by people. The trash and feces on the roadside didn't spontaneously appear. And, the tire tracks in the meadows were not made by crop-circle aliens.

Idiots took advantage of the absence of adults, and trashed the place. Same story, different idiots. Not surprisingly, a great deal of the damage at the Valley occurred on the evening of New Year's Eve.


After that, the Highway 41 entrance was "closed", but the rangers were letting people in, as to go skiing, on a case-by-case basis. Presumably, a gang of 4x4 hoodlums would have been turned back. We weren't. Badger Pass was a nine-year old snowboarder's paradise that week.








Here's an semi-OT link to a video that is so fascinating, I had to post it. At first glance, it appears to be some sort of SNL-type skit, but it's not.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1D2ynASqe4


It's a 1959 episode of a TV show about a Texas Ranger who comes into a little old west town to find a con man, named Trump, plying his fraudulent trade. Trump convinces the town's people that a non-existent threat must be dealt with, and that he, alone, will be able to save them from certain doom. The con man's proposed solution is to build a wall to stop an allegedly forthcoming cascade of meteorites that he claims will destroy the town. The town's people must pay for the wall themselves, by purchasing Trump's "magic" umbrellas for $75 apiece. The people don't have sufficient funding for the wall, so they break into the bank (Treasury) and illegally divert other funds to pay for it. When the Texas Ranger tries to uphold the law, and stop the looting of the bank (Treasury), he is attacked and knocked unconscious by the crowd of gullible, but fiercely loyal, Trump believers.

Later, the old west con man Trump tries to bribe the Ranger with 25% of his griftings. But, con man Trump winds up getting shot by the local sheriff, who was in on the con. The midnight deadline for the disaster comes and goes, without any sort of meteorite shower. The Ranger recovers the grifted money and returns it to the town's people, who are grateful to be rid of the now-detested Trump and his ludicrous confidence game of building a wall to keep out an imaginary threat.

The actor playing the Ranger resembles a young Robert Mueller, and his name is Robert. The actor playing the con man bears a striking resemblance to Fred Trump.

EdBannister

Mountain climber
13,000 feet
Jan 14, 2019 - 12:21am PT
but we could get Bret to repair Barker Dam....


hmmm
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Jan 14, 2019 - 02:23am PT
The "TRACKDOWN" TV Clip(s) posted 3 days ago in the The Flames Thread!
So it is very old news here given that it wasn't fresh for a 1958 show

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2607974&tn=18360

you all should visit The Flames with regularity, it will keep you regular & up to date.
That way you would see both the 4 minute mash-up that shows you all you need to see And the full episode

Baker Baker ? wait what was it?
them guns and our own assurance that it is the same old same old out in the kitty litter, has me more distracted than usual.
When It comes back to me I'll be sure to add it.

Might have been something about beer being brewed with the finest tap water from New Jersy?
Or that 315 miles by the southern route vs 314 miles by the northern route from Latrobe Pa to Newark New Jersey?that picture has low merit It will be replaced

Time to auto-mutant
that is explained else where
French Toasted
Russ Walling

Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
Jan 14, 2019 - 09:44am PT
you all should visit The Flames with regularity, it will keep you regular & up to date.

On what exactly?

#GarbleBase
Aeriq

Sport climber
100-year Visitor
Jan 14, 2019 - 10:28am PT
Anyone got any legit photos? I'm all for piling on the stOOOpid American trashing public when it's deserved, but it would be good to see some evidence. Pics, anyone?

Wall Street Mill:


Roots

Mountain climber
Redmond, Oregon
Jan 14, 2019 - 10:42am PT
Too many on the edge, extreme HAMMOCKERS running wild during shut down....
Chief

climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
Jan 14, 2019 - 11:22am PT
As mentioned in the other thread, we spent the better part of three weeks in J Tree over Christmas and New Year climbing in the front country and hiking further afield.

Apart from the roads being busy with vehicle traffic and a bit of parking mayhem, we didn't witness any intentional bad behaviour.
Almost without exception, all of our interactions with fellow hominids were pleasant and generally edifying.
I would venture that generally speaking, the majority of the park visitors behaved well without adult supervision.

I also heard (anecdotally) that there were a lot of volunteers taking up the slack to take care of the park during the shutdown, hauling garbage and even pumping the toilets.

Should we regard the evidence in the OP as empirical or anecdotal?
What is the degree or extent of the alleged damage and based on that determination, what would be an appropriate response?

Apropos to the current funding stalemate, an apt personal metaphor that comes to mind goes something like this;
My wife and I have a predetermined household operating budget and an account to cover that and I tell her I'm not going to cosign the check to keep the utilities running until she agrees with my request to build a garish and potentially offensive chain link fence around the property.

Aint gonna happen!
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Jan 14, 2019 - 12:39pm PT
Wrong. I know that it was liberals trying to pin it on conservatives trying to make them look bad.
Wow. Delusional. It's that kind of thinking that got the Orange One into the White House and keeps his numbers up with his base.

BTW, Chief, thanks for the report. Glad to hear that rumors of the park's death have been greatly exaggerated.
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Jan 14, 2019 - 01:09pm PT
Yep, Aeriq, that's bad. Although stuff like that has happened with full park funding, too. Too many DB's in this world.

BAd
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 14, 2019 - 01:11pm PT
Looks like a hatchet job to me.

New kind of hatchet. Leaves no chips.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 14, 2019 - 01:14pm PT
Lotta jailhouse lawyers here.
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Jan 14, 2019 - 03:19pm PT
I think all of us would like to see more pictures and evidence ( I don't doubt NPS personnel reports).
I am suspicious when multiple news reports all show the same 2 or 3 pictures. It sounds like lazy reporting and a lot of cutting/pasting from a single report.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 14, 2019 - 03:26pm PT
The LA Times quoted a number of conservancy group members who saw a lot of the actual
bad behavior and damage. While they could have motives for exaggerating and/or embellishing
they could just as well be very credible.
FAKT: Dipsh!t Americans think they can do anything they want, especially when the law isn’t around.
FAKT: Dipsh!t Americans don’t give a damn about anything, including themselves.
INESCAPABLE CONCLUSION: A lot of the reports must be true.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 14, 2019 - 03:45pm PT
Just for the record. I deny I’m a Russian agent.
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Jan 14, 2019 - 04:40pm PT
I am interested in some statistics. How many damaged trees? How many new roads? How much other damage?
Sh**t it just hit me. We won't get good reports until sometime after the shutdown ends.

I guess we will have to wait for the rest of the story.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jan 16, 2019 - 12:22pm PT
That looks like a pine tree to me. Real wood is not a large yucca.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Jan 17, 2019 - 10:38am PT
^^^^ idiot
Trump

climber
Jan 17, 2019 - 12:28pm PT
Some government is probably good for us, too much government, probably not. Some compromise is probably good for us, too much compromise, probably not.

Can we please just get back to the political scheming, and the name calling? Welcome to the age of Trump. We political scheming name callers are the adults now.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Jan 18, 2019 - 08:02am PT
I did my part!
HeschMonster

Trad climber
Morro Bay
Jan 31, 2019 - 02:50pm PT
Tom, you mentioned "last week" on the 13th RE: the valley. I was there 12th and 13th, brought three big bags to do pickup in case it really was as bad as the news was reporting. Perhaps there had been tons of volunteer work right before I arrived but I literally saw one single piece of trash and it was right outside of a dumpster, no joke. I spent at least an hour canvassing the entire park (there were literally 20 cars in the whole park that morning, no joke!) and didn't find ANY trash. Walking up the falls trail I found less small trash than I normally would have picked up (i think 6-7 pieces of plastic/wrappers in 6mi).

I'm no fan of the orange clown but using the shutdown to score "orange man bad!" points by claiming the NP system is being destroyed by litter seems disingenuous to me, based on my sample size of one. Not pointing the finger at you, but at the media in general. If anything, the shutdown is a blessing that coaxes us to take more of an ownership role in our favorite parks and not just show up for the facelift but bring a bag every time we visit a park and spend some time cleaning up after the jackasses who litter it up. Food for thought...
Messages 1 - 61 of total 61 in this topic
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