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ExfifteenExfifteen

climber
Feb 10, 2019 - 08:23pm PT
Welfare fraud is actually not very prevalent. I find it really disturbing that there is such outrage at the idea that a single mother, or father although admit it-when you think "welfare fraud," you aren't imagining a male, doing something to increase the amount received(I mean, I guess that's what people assume is happening),

Yup, makes complete sense. Great wordsmithing...
dirtbag

climber
Feb 10, 2019 - 08:44pm PT
The burning question is: were the satanists at this year’s Grammies?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 10, 2019 - 11:01pm PT
"Set high goals and see what how close your team came come to achieving them."

If AOC's intent of floating the GND is based upon this concept, then I'm in her camp. In fact, I think she's intelligent enough to know that the goals that are presented in the GND are idealistically unachievable (certainly in the timeframes stated). But if it's enough of a straw man policy proposal to influence the establishment thinking of the Left, then it has value. Because without such challenges, the establishment politics just wallow in mediocrity, which isn't good for anyone.

And Edward...the same phenomenon...precisely the same phenomenon...is occurring within the GOP as this very moment.
spectreman

Trad climber
Feb 11, 2019 - 07:20am PT
Setting a high goal with the experience, know how, and work ethic to pull it off is one thing. Setting delusional goals with no chance of success is entirely another.
We need discourse and discussion, but this GND will only shut doors because it is so naive and, frankly, stupid.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Feb 11, 2019 - 07:48am PT
What is stupid is not addressing any of those ideas,like what is going on now.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 11, 2019 - 07:51am PT
Norton, read Norman Thomas. Small business will benefit from socialism. (Actual socialism, not the BS variety claimed by USSR, China, Venezuela, etc.)
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Feb 11, 2019 - 08:07am PT
I am really struggling trying to understand how the generation that marched against unneeded wars, demanded environmental protection, decried the rise of multinational Corporations, fought and died for equality and social justice- to name but a paltry few of the "social" ideals of the 1960s and 70s. - how that same generation of people 50 years later can justify deriding a person for being the same impassioned, hopeful, naive, but no less dedicated youth that we were.

I am of that generation, and still march against unneeded wars, demand environmental protections, and favor equality for everyone.
However, I agree that some baby boomers caved in so that they would fit in to a "normal" society. some say this began after the war in 'Nam was over, because there was nothing left to protest.

The bumper stickers are true - Old People DO suck.

not all
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 11, 2019 - 08:20am PT
Gary, what kind of socialism does France have? It is definitely not kind to small business.
When you can’t lay someone off unless you declare bankruptcy you’re caught between a
rock and a unmoveable socialist.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Feb 11, 2019 - 08:38am PT
Read.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ocasio-cortez-adviser-admits-he-falsely-claimed-green-new-deal-didnt-promise-security-for-those-unwilling-to-work

Turns out it was hacked and she NEVER said it.

Carry on w/bs.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 11, 2019 - 09:08am PT
spectreman

Trad climber
Feb 11, 2019 - 10:16am PT
From Wilbeer

The article in your link says that the GND did, in fact, say it would cover people unwilling to work. I'm not sure what you ( or I ) am missing here.

From your link:
A top adviser to New York Democratic Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has admitted that an official "Green New Deal" document posted by Ocasio-Cortez's office contained a guarantee of economic security even for those "unwilling to work" -- but not before he went viral in progressive circles for claiming the exact opposite, repeatedly, in an interview with Fox News' "Tucker Carlson Tonight."
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Feb 11, 2019 - 10:39am PT
Watch the video.

The Cornell professor said it was not from us,repeatedly.

The Fox News commentary spins that.

Am I watching and reading that wrong?

Truth is ,it(the statement of unwillingness to work) ,was never part of the original I read on AOC’s website.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 11, 2019 - 10:46am PT
It sounds to me(granted I just scanned the linked article) that the "unwilling" to work was likely a typo that maybe was supposed to be "unable," and it wasn't caught before being sent out to at least some sources.


While embarrassing and unfortunate - I would have to ask - what does the ACTUAL DOCUMENT THAT WAS PRESENTED IN CONGRESS say?

Because otherwise this is just more socmed manipulation. Come frigging on, people. Get a brain already. The delight in Brave New World-esque banter is making me ill, and damaging our society, country, and world. It will NOT end well for us if we don't stop participating in it.





EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 11, 2019 - 11:00am PT
Here's the document sent to NPR

https://apps.npr.org/documents/document.html?id=5729035-Green-New-Deal-FAQ

Halfway down page one:

Economic security for all who are unable or unwilling to work.

What I don't understand is why Wilbeer et al are trying so hard to refute this. AOC says exceptionally stupid crap on a regular basis.
MarkWestman

Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
Feb 11, 2019 - 11:20am PT
The way I read it, the Fox News article is not an exoneration of the GND authors, in fact it confirms the accusation.

Unfortunately, the end result here is that instead of the GND proposal spurring a much needed discussion of ideas and policy for the future, we are instead debating whether anyone who entertains any version of the ideas being floated in the GND wants to “get rid of airplanes and pay people not to work”.

As someone pointed out above, Democrats are already- once again- losing their voice and getting baited into letting talk radio hyperbole drive the discussion.


the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Feb 11, 2019 - 11:37am PT
The right must love AOC. They love having someone somewhat far left so they can be chicken littles running around warning about socialism. Meanwhile big business and the 0.01% are getting huge tax cuts, while many lower/middle income people's taxes go up or they get a small cut. She's so radical, wanting to help address the massive and accelerating extreme income inequality of the last 25 years, where more and more wealth and income is highly concentrated in very few hands. She's so unfair!
Degaine

climber
Feb 11, 2019 - 11:37am PT
reilly wrote:
Gary, what kind of socialism does France have? It is definitely not kind to small business.
When you can’t lay someone off unless you declare bankruptcy you’re caught between a
rock and a unmoveable socialist.


When it comes to France, you haven't the faintest clue of what you are talking about.

All systems have their strengths and drawbacks. The issue in France is not one of entrepreneurship, nor is it difficulty in hiring/firing people. For small businesses, the difficulty is most often one of finding capital to fund the critical growth phase of a startup, especially one involved in product development or manufacturing. Compared to the US, the banks are risk averse and there is much less venture capital available.

However, in France, if you do have to close your business, or you get fired, or you decide to quit your job, or you decide to quite you job to start a new business, you won't go bankrupt trying to cover medical costs if you ever get in an accident. On the equivalent climbing forums in France you never see any threads asking to help fund this or that person's medical care.

France's medical system is far superior to the US at half the cost per capita and it covers everyone.

Of course, in France, Walter White's story never would have seen the light of day.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
Feb 11, 2019 - 11:39am PT
Here is the resolution:

https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hres109/BILLS-116hres109ih.pdf

It took about three seconds to find and is easily read in less than five minutes. But why not have a 24 hour news cycle on what's in it??
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 11, 2019 - 11:55am PT
Economic security for all who are unable or unwilling to work.

EdwardT nails it. Apparently y’all only read fake news and missed that Finland’s experiment
with a guaranteed income didn’t result in a statistically significant number of losers going out
and getting a job. The Finnish gubmint is ‘re-examining’ the program.

Degaine, our very own hand-wringing libtard loving National Public Radio did a lengthy program
on entrepreneurship in France. This was a few years ago but I doubt it has changed much.
It took a minimum of 6 months to get through all the bureaucracy. That’s why 400,000
young French had moved to Britain by then because it took 2-3 DAYS to do so in Britain.
And The Economist, which is far more liberal than you probably think, regularly excoriates
most EU countries for being unfriendly to small business. I’m afraid The Economist has more
credibility than you. Sorry. I imagine there are quite a few small business people amongst
les gilets jaunes.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 11, 2019 - 11:58am PT
I am really struggling trying to understand how the generation that marched against unneeded wars, demanded environmental protection, decried the rise of multinational Corporations, fought and died for equality and social justice- to name but a paltry few of the "social" ideals of the 1960s and 70s. - how that same generation of people 50 years later can justify deriding a person for being the same impassioned, hopeful, naive, but no less dedicated youth that we were.

Ricky, it has to do with the political dynamic that has evolved. It used to be that the nominee of both parties gravitated toward the middle during the election, but Trump broke the mold by espousing extreme positions----and winning.

The far left has advocated for a long time extreme positions----by which I mean positions not generally supported by the majority of voters----and saying "forget the people in the center". This is Trump's exact strategy, and it won, and he maintains his base. And the far left says "we told you so".

The problem is, that many (most) Americans don't want to live in a country controlled by either extreme. But the Far Left doesn't believe that. They believe "They'll love us when we win", mistaking lobbyists with voters.
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