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Jeffrey VanMiddlebrook
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 10, 2018 - 08:00am PT
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I've noticed that maybe half of the posts to ST have "zero" to do with climbing, so I'm going to take the liberty to vent about one of my pet peeves, and that is Elon Musk's bogus claim of "Zero Emissions" that one sees on the cardboard license plate frame inserts on brand new Teslas. There's no such thing as zero emissions because every process involved in manufacturing involves the use of fossil fuels. It takes more fossil fuels to make a Tesla than it takes to make a Hummer. In addition, almost every Tesla charging station gets its electricity from the burning of fossil fuels. Even if a Tesla owner has his/her own PV system at home dedicated to charging his/her Tesla, it takes a great amount of fossil fuels to manufacture, ship, and install PV systems, not to mention the fact that when the PV system is not collecting photons then the Tesla gets its power from the grid which is reliance once again on fossil fuels.
The entire EV hysteria is bogus. Fossil fuels will always be needed, and to believe we can eventually get to 100% reliance on alternative energy sources is pure anti-physics. Hell, you can't even make steel without coal. And yes, there's a process that uses electricity to reduce iron ore for steel production, but where will that electricity come from? Don't dare say PV because that ain't a-gonna happen. Hmm....maybe nuclear power? Ah but that is the bogey man to all Greenies.
You see the checkmate humanity has put itself into? If we were only a billion strong perhaps we could cut way back on fossil fuels, but at 7 billion-plus and counting that will NEVER happen.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Dec 10, 2018 - 08:41am PT
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So what's your point? You don't like Teslas? You think that because they use fossil fuels in the manufacture and charging that people should drive SUVs instead? Or that we're all hosed so why bother?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 10, 2018 - 09:18am PT
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I'm not an Elon Musk fan, but his vision is to provide a fully solar infrastructure to fuel his EV fleet. He's manufacturing batteries and solar cells in an attempt to greatly reduce the emissions from our peculiar transportation needs. Eventually he will wean his endeavors off of fossil fuel generated electric power.
I agree that the expanding population is a problem that conventional technologies will not be able to keep up with. The Green Revolution is limited, leading to the expansion of farm lands displacing forests, and the rising temperature offset the "fertilizer" effect of more CO2 in the atmosphere, where half of the emissions go, the other half goes into the oceans where acidification could be the greatest threat.
For a personal response, the most impact you can have on climate change is to have one or fewer children... it is an order of magnitude more effective than any other mitigating activity you could do, and goes to your point.
It is also something that is a personal choice, and not one that government is ever going to be involved in successfully.
As for climbing content, Donini has to invite us all down the Patagonia so we can write about climbing in the summer, in the winter... California ice isn't always accessible, and when it is it's briefly accessible...
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Dec 10, 2018 - 10:49am PT
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Even if a Tesla owner has his/her own PV system at home dedicated to charging his/her Tesla, it takes a great amount of fossil fuels to manufacture, ship
Got it, so transportation and installation of infrastructure for alternative fuels is counted against them, but not so for conventional sources, seems fair.
Just out of curiousty, how many miles driven for that clean Hummer to catch up the dirty Tesla, assuming the Tesla is powered by solar(I know, a fantasy, no where gets that much sun, unless you’re talking about fantasies like Narnia or the American Southwest).
Edit: Good catch splater, no point arguing with a bot.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Dec 10, 2018 - 11:00am PT
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How is more mining, smelting, and manufacturing green? It's just more consumerism being rebranded to feel good about itself. The resources are finite. Humanity, 8 billion and growing. Unfortunately, for everyone's grandchildren, the situation is going to get a whole lot uglier. All aboard the hell bound train. Mankind, just a vain Cosmic blip.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Dec 10, 2018 - 01:09pm PT
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all of the replies to this poster are a waste of time.
The kook poster is a serial troll bot.
- Mar 18, 2013 - 11:47am PT the kook posted:
Now I'm not an AGW hysteric as I know way too much hard science to buy into that nonsense
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 10, 2018 - 01:19pm PT
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Your entire rant misses the point of switching to renewable energy. Nobody claimed that the process was zero emission, that is your straw-man. Think greater efficiency with electric cars. Greater efficiency with roof top solar.
As for the statement that we can not reduce fossil fuel use dramatically is total nonsense. Without a lot of effort this country has reduced its consumption of fossil fuels. No reason the rest of the world can not follow our example (except under Trump)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/183617/us-energy-consumption-from-fossil-fuels-since-1985/
Even if a Tesla owner has his/her own PV system at home dedicated to charging his/her Tesla, it takes a great amount of fossil fuels to manufacture, ship
Love that BS. Ignores the fact that to produce a gallon of gasoline requires the energy equivalent of a gallon of gasoline. See the lack of efficiency in that? To compound the absurdity, the gallon of gas will be burned in an internal combustion engine with a maximum efficiency of about 15%.
The solar panel will generate the amount of energy it took to make it in a matter of a few years. The lifespan is unknow, but they warranty them for 25-30 years.
Global warming denier, hahaha, good catch Splater
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SilverSnurfer
Mountain climber
SLC, UT.
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Dec 10, 2018 - 01:21pm PT
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Interesting, here I was thinking that it was a fallacy simulator.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Dec 10, 2018 - 06:05pm PT
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Another oil stockholder gets to spew his opinions.
Where is the payback from Fossil Fuels?
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Dec 10, 2018 - 06:49pm PT
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we have had an electric car (Leaf) for three years, powered (effectively) off the solar panels on the roof.
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John M
climber
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Dec 10, 2018 - 07:09pm PT
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50 years ago the air in LA was continually brown. Breathing was dangerous. Then came emission controls and things got better.
I look at it this way. Which would you rather be stuck in traffic with?
1. A bunch of trucks from the 60s belching black smoke.
2. a bunch of electric vehicles.
As was pointed out above, Sure the electric vehicles create emissions while being produced. But so does any vehicle that is produced. The only way to stop that is to stop producing any vehicles. That of course isn't going to happen.
So..
What counts is tail pipe emissions. Thats the difference.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Dec 10, 2018 - 07:27pm PT
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Nothing will ever be "Zero Emissions or Impact"
An MIT study was looking at full cycle electric car impact. If the electricity came from coal electric cars had no environmental benefit compared to gasoline powered. Electricity from natural gas resulted in a positive impact compared to gasoline. Best was solar for power input.
Can anyone comment on how much pollution is (effectively) outsourced to China as a result of manufacturing solar cells?
PS I believe we will end up using natural gas as a bridge to nuclear, solar, wind, tides, etc.
Disclaimer: I find oil and gas for a living.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Dec 10, 2018 - 08:23pm PT
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I'm not an Elon Musk fan, but his vision is to provide a fully solar infrastructure to fuel his EV fleet. He's manufacturing batteries and solar cells in an attempt to greatly reduce the emissions from our peculiar transportation needs.
As for climbing content, Donini has to invite us all down the Patagonia so we can write about climbing in the summer, in the winter... California ice isn't always accessible, and when it is it's briefly accessible...
So, will you be walking, pedaling, or paddling?
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Dec 10, 2018 - 09:15pm PT
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The world has a long ways to go to get to fully sustainable.
But you got to start somewhere.
The world also needs to get better at reusing materials. Future generations are going to mine our landfills.
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dgbryan
Mountain climber
Hong Kong
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Dec 10, 2018 - 09:23pm PT
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Always a pleasure to read Ed Hartouni's erudite & measured posts (at least when I am able to keep up).
With regard to this - It is also something that is a personal choice, and not one that government is ever going to be involved in successfully - I give you China's (now abandoned) one-child policy.
Granted, a working definition of success might exclude brutally coercive methods, widespread evasion & associated corruption, a dangerously skewed sex-ratio & resultant social harm, & a demographic bulge that is likely to fuel inter-generational tensions. But I give them credit for recognising the(ir) problem & trying to do something about it.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Dec 11, 2018 - 12:31am PT
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Walking across Darien might be problematic--but we could paddle. Also, the calories we would have to consume to fuel our walk would be bathed in oil from farm to market.
As for limiting birth rates at zero, well, the developed world is already there. In many places, negative replacement.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 11, 2018 - 07:48am PT
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Also, the calories we would have to consume to fuel our walk would be bathed in oil from farm to market.
not necessarily, eating locally grown foods in season certainly greatly reduces the total energy required to bring them to market. Vegetable rich diets would also reduce the energy required to produce the food.
As for limiting birth rates at zero, well, the developed world is already there. In many places, negative replacement.
it would seem a strategy might then be to help the "undeveloped world" develop... China seems to be doing this to great effect as a part of its foreign policy. On the economic front, one would then have to face the end to a consumer economy, essentially the end point of development when everyone has everything needed.
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SuperTopo on the Web
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decide to have one or fewer children
Let us know!