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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Nov 19, 2018 - 11:56am PT
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Point is, with the saturation we have today, living out in the woods with our trophy homes and all the valuables, you can't really just let it burn. And it needs to burn.
I've got my party pad in the woods but if it burns I hope I won't spend all my time blaming the Forest Circus.
edit-these California cities that are burning down completely are different . Don't know what the answers are there.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 19, 2018 - 12:04pm PT
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Nov 19, 2018 - 12:17pm PT
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It here started in Ca. decades ago.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Nov 19, 2018 - 03:06pm PT
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Simplified summary: Couple thousand years with normal (meaning drier) California climate and tons of fires. Then about 100 wetter than normal years with extra plant growth and fire suppression.
California returns to normal precipitation (that people call a drought since it’s dry relative to the short history as a state) with the addition of approximately 10x more trees than normal, lots of dead fire fuel, and lots of houses mixed in with the tinder.
Not sure what the solution is but the problem is pretty simple.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 19, 2018 - 04:36pm PT
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It's possible to manage a forest, but impossible to manage the wind and other climatic phenomena.
--Mariah Mariah
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Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
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Nov 19, 2018 - 04:54pm PT
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Well, it isn't done all over Finland. 80% of the country is forest. In the Arctic. Not exactly the same climate as California.
They do monitor the forests though.
https://twitter.com/anttiholma/status/1063907282973544448/photo/1
The Finns are having fun.
"You can tell your friend in the White House, that ALL finns rake thousands of hectares every day!"
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 19, 2018 - 05:16pm PT
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Hilarious stuff, Lollie.
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Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
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Nov 19, 2018 - 05:17pm PT
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Pretty lady with a rake, Mouse :-)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 19, 2018 - 07:19pm PT
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I believe that forest thousands of years ago, burned without being suppressed or managed. -not what residents want now.
the forest lands were in equilibrium with the seasonal fires ignited by natural sources. Thousands of years ago this was probably still human managed in the Sierra, at least in many places.
But the point is that our current forests are very much out of equilibrium, and humans are trying to keep the disequilibrium going. Initially (in the 1950s) it was to protect lumber resources, now it is to protect homes and buildings.
Driving in the western slopes of the Sierra it is difficult to see how humans will continue to keep the situation as it is.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Nov 19, 2018 - 09:46pm PT
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Ed-couldn't agree more. What are we to do?
Everything burns. Log-it burns. Thin-it burns. Section of forest that burned significantly a year, two or ten years ago-it burns. Seems that old growth is sometimes spared and I often wonder if that's because old growth, especially on both sides of a stream contains more water.
Anyway, none of these types of management mimic what natural fires do. They just don't. I also wonder if the more thinning I do, the more that land dries out, is hotter, soil content and plant structure changes but doesn't really reduce my fire hazard.
Prescribed burning I think is good but very risky. Again, not to be confused with burning piles but lighting your whole forest on fire during "safe" conditions. But that does a much better job of mimicking what fires did, before fire mitigation of the 1900's. Think about how much undergrowth was regularly burned out, leaving larger, more fire resistant trees, like Ponderosa and Western Larch.
Arne
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Nov 19, 2018 - 09:51pm PT
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I've often said the real problem is people; more and more of them living out in the forest, spread out all over the place and that people really belong concentrated in cities because forests need to burn, in order to be what they are-forests.
But now with these fires you have in California that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Nov 20, 2018 - 07:22am PT
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Somewhere in the distant forests of Finland, the wild Roomba quietly does its important work clearing the undergrowth.
Thank you internet.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Nov 26, 2018 - 08:19pm PT
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once an f'n idiot, always an f'n idiot
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Nov 26, 2018 - 10:17pm PT
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We rake by the ton in Tahoe as part of regular and prescribed Defensible Space and Tree work. Here come the hysterics
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Nov 27, 2018 - 08:38am PT
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^^^^When two high profile fires on two sides of my land erupted this summer, the combined
agencies poured millions into them, creating all kinds of ineffective jobs, even though both fires
did not breach 1000 acres together. The biggest joke were the fire lines they punched through,
connecting roads that were 1 mile apart. You can't even walk those lines now due to all the slash
scattered everywhere. There's way more fuel now chopped up into kindling by their masticators.
They don't cut, but chew it up and throw it all around. Nobody in forest management seems to
actually touch any tree or bend down to pick something up or even get out of their truck or heavy equipment.
I know that is stereotyping but it is what we've seen in our area.
Arne
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Nov 27, 2018 - 09:08am PT
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We have loads of fuel load removal here in Tahoe and every year we see the recurring debate about how some don't want to deal with the smoke from the controlled burns.
As far as the masticators leaving behind tons of slash everywhere that is just a matter of funding. There are various levels of treatments available and each has an associated cost. I'll try to post up some pics of the current program that's been in my back yard all summer later.
And fuel reduction plans are driven at least as much by profit as by environmental concerns. For instance the Camp Fire burned through areas that had already been managed, had already burned, and were nothing but brush and scrub oak. There is no way to manage that land without 100% government funding because there is no profit for the timber companies there. And the government funding isn't there and is dropping.
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