crack to the right of finger licker, black wall, donner.

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Messages 21 - 40 of total 45 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Nov 8, 2018 - 10:33am PT
Their attitude was:

1) the route was unclimbed so they had a right to put an anchor on it.
2) there are bolts everywhere at donner summit. 
3) their bolting activity didn't affect me.

Legit argument. Even if the route they cleaned and put an anchor above is complete sh#t, it is their right to have their adventure. Even if the climb looks too easy to other people etc. This belongs in the First World Problems thread :)
kingtut

climber
Jingus Newroutaineer
Nov 8, 2018 - 10:43am PT
I would add, that if its a complete POS then it will not stand the test of time. Give it a few years and if it simply is never climbed, you got some hangers and chain to booty.

If it gets popular (however doubtful at present) then live and let live.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 8, 2018 - 10:57am PT
I'm somewhat playing devils advocate here to both sides, to hopefully demonstrate it's not usually cut and dry.

1) the route was unclimbed so they had a right to put an anchor on it.
How do they know someone didn't climb and downclimb it and decide it wasn't worth the anchor? Did they talk to people who did the FAs near it?
2) there are bolts everywhere at donner summit.
Bogus argument. That means the local community has decided bolts are possible for a FA, it doesn't justify these bolts.
3) their bolting activity didn't affect me.
Maybe these two bolts won't really affect someone, but left unchecked superfluous bolts all over the place can lead to bolt wars, restricted access (Black Wall is private property if I remember right and if bolt wars start on it the owner could shut down all new route activity or even climbing at all on it).

The one thing I think really has little to do with it is if it's easy. Unless it's easy in a spot that makes no sense (e.g. on top of a difficult crack). If it was a 5.12 crack would you feel the same way?
Matt's

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2018 - 11:10am PT
Legit argument. Even if the route they cleaned and put an anchor above is complete sh#t, it is their right to have their adventure. Even if the climb looks too easy to other people etc. This belongs in the First World Problems thread :)

I guess my attitude is-- if all they wanted to do is climb a new route, more power to them. It would have been faster/cheaper/easier to simply down-lead the climb, rather than put in both bolts and big chain anchors at the end of it. Again, this climb is 30 feet long, maximum.
Matt's

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2018 - 11:13am PT
The one thing I think really has little to do with it is if it's easy. Unless it's easy in a spot that makes no sense (e.g. on top of a difficult crack). If it was a 5.12 crack would you feel the same way?

The main problem is not how hard/easy the climb is. It is just a bad climb by all the normal metrics used (length; quality of rock; quality of movement).

If these guys had put up a route that was even one-star by the standards of the area, I wouldn't have bitched about it in person or online.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Nov 8, 2018 - 11:20am PT
There are standards for FAs for the Donner area?

Sorry Matt, ya lost me. But then again I only put up Munge Climbs no one else wants to bother with.

As I alluded to in my first post, I don't have a problem with bolts or route development at donner. The anchor was placed in a logical spot for the climb.

I do wish that people think hard before putting up a new route. The route in question is extremely short, easy, and features questionable rock quality. There are a couple thousands "routes" like it that could exist at donner. I think it would be a disservice to the environment and to the community to bolt every possible surface in the area.



Specifically though to your point that it would be a disservice to the environment and community, what exactly is impacted environmentally? What exactly is a disservice to the community?

The upper points about it basically being un-aesthetic (my choice of word), is belied by the references to disservice to environmental or community concerns. What concerns would those be?


the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 8, 2018 - 01:15pm PT
Semantics, but environmental impacts include impacts to humans including aesthetic, crowding, loss of access, etc. It is the totality of impacts to the environment.

Environmental impacts may also include ecological impacts (to the local ecosystem). Ecological impacts from bolts are rare, e.g. if it opens up a climb on a rock with falcon nesting spots.

I think the disservice to the community is cumulative. That is two bolts aren't a big deal, but if everyone bolts every little crack they find there'd be many more bolts which could be an eyesore or threaten access if they attract undo attention.

Ultimately I think it's usually up to the individual putting in the bolts if they are warranted, and in this case it appears that perhaps the person who put them in didn't really consider if the cumulative impact was worth it. I'm guessing this is Matt's issue which I totally understand. But perhaps instead of yelling at them it would be better to educate them, e.g. asking "is this low quality climbing and rock really worth putting in bolts for?"

That's the nice thing about bolts though. This person can put them in, but if the community decides they aren't worth the impact someone will likely remove them. It's a lot cheaper to remove bolts than place them. If so I just hope removal is done correctly to prevent an even uglier mess.
Matt's

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2018 - 01:39pm PT
thanks Fet-- you nicely expressed how I am feeling.

But perhaps instead of yelling at them it would be better to educate them, e.g. asking "is this low quality climbing and rock really worth putting in bolts for?"

Sorry, I was not very clear what I meant by "yelling at them." I mostly told them that they should be thinking more deeply about what lines were worth bolting. I also told them that people have been climbing at black rock for 50 or so years, and that there was a reason that no one had bothered to climb/bolt that specific route.
Nawmean?

Social climber
Out there
Nov 8, 2018 - 01:55pm PT
people have been climbing at black rock for 50 or so years, and that there was a reason that no one had bothered to climb/bolt that specific route.

Hell, I scrambled that rig back in '97 and I know I wasn't the first one.

Nawmean?

Cheers
DMT
bit'er ol' guy

climber
the past
Nov 8, 2018 - 02:45pm PT
why? that things getting chopped for sure. donner has a legion of biter'ol guys aka "the committee" i.e.committee of one i.e. bullet or a few others....same old sh#t. why bolt that? every 5 years some one makes the FA of that dirty crack. so many classic burly crack at DS and that's where you spend your time? so, so lame!
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 8, 2018 - 03:06pm PT
Cool Matt. Even if they were defensive at the time (human nature) I hope they thought about it that evening and hopefully they will apply that thinking to future decisions.
kingtut

climber
Jingus Newroutaineer
Nov 8, 2018 - 03:32pm PT
Just be patient. The first way to start a bolt war is with confrontation and putting someone on the defensive.

If there is some mad proliferation that is a little different.

But for stuff like this the perps will probably realize themselves in time its a POS and the community consensus is that it is so.

Then, go remove ur chain booty. :)

In the hope that the perps will read this thread:

You have to use restraint with Bolt Guns. They are very seductive and easily lead the best of us into placing bolts we regret later. You should be thinking long and hard about every single bolt you place.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 8, 2018 - 06:03pm PT

I do wish that people think hard before putting up a new route. The route in question is extremely short, easy, and features questionable rock quality. There are a couple thousands "routes" like it that could exist at donner. I think it would be a disservice to the environment and to the community to bolt every possible surface in the area.

The fact that the climb hasn't been developed yet speaks loudly...

Both very legit comments (in my always humble opinion).

There's no "right" or "wrong" here (which you clearly recognize). I do however wish that more people viewed the resource with the same attitude as Matt's.
kingtut

climber
Jingus Newroutaineer
Nov 8, 2018 - 06:45pm PT
Proper.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 11, 2018 - 10:42am PT
I saw this article recently: https://www.climbing.com/people/unsent-why-im-gonna-chop-the-bolts-on-adam-ondras-silence-5-15d/

I feel like it's so dumb. It can give some people justification for putting in bolts that shouldn't be there (e.g. "see these crusty old trad dudes are stuck in the past"). I do think there are crusty old trad guys who are against any bolting for sport routes, but for every one of them there are maybe 10 young guys who don't really understand the nuances of where or why bolts are justified. It would be much better to write about and help educate them.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Sacramento, CA
Nov 11, 2018 - 11:40am PT
I wish they’d clean up the ironically named “Mr Clean” before they put up some supposed FA. Or maybe update some bolts on existing routes.

You better done better been wearing that Big Truck hat before there was a Big Truck hat and known bruh back when he was a dude who looks like a lady before you done gone equip the rig, nawmean?
WTF

Trad climber
The spawning grounds.
Nov 11, 2018 - 03:54pm PT
My money is on those anchors are gone by now. Someone needs to end that BS graffiti going on up there as well. What’s gone on there is disgusting and unacceptable I would hope even to non climbers.
KP Ariza

climber
SCC
Nov 11, 2018 - 05:08pm PT
In 1985 I climbed a grainy 30’ vertical hands to off hands crack that we “found” while driving out a now gated/private dirt road below Black Wall.
Spotted it, jumped out of the car, ran over and booted up and soloed the 5.9/10a grainy pile of an “FA”.
When I pulled over the top, with sweaty, rashed up hands and wrists, I spotted one lone bolt staring back up at me.
I remember thinking to myself, this is 1985…of course it had been climbed before.
BuddhaStalin

climber
Truckee, CA
Nov 11, 2018 - 05:23pm PT
Me or anybody I know arent against new bolts or routes, just against dumb/contrived/poorly done ones. Still dont know any details
BuddhaStalin

climber
Truckee, CA
Nov 11, 2018 - 05:24pm PT
Theyre not the commitee, theyre the council;)
Messages 21 - 40 of total 45 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
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