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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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There are standards for FAs for the Donner area?
Sorry Matt, ya lost me. But then again I only put up Munge Climbs no one else wants to bother with.
As I alluded to in my first post, I don't have a problem with bolts or route development at donner. The anchor was placed in a logical spot for the climb.
I do wish that people think hard before putting up a new route. The route in question is extremely short, easy, and features questionable rock quality. There are a couple thousands "routes" like it that could exist at donner. I think it would be a disservice to the environment and to the community to bolt every possible surface in the area.
Specifically though to your point that it would be a disservice to the environment and community, what exactly is impacted environmentally? What exactly is a disservice to the community?
The upper points about it basically being un-aesthetic (my choice of word), is belied by the references to disservice to environmental or community concerns. What concerns would those be?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Semantics, but environmental impacts include impacts to humans including aesthetic, crowding, loss of access, etc. It is the totality of impacts to the environment.
Environmental impacts may also include ecological impacts (to the local ecosystem). Ecological impacts from bolts are rare, e.g. if it opens up a climb on a rock with falcon nesting spots.
I think the disservice to the community is cumulative. That is two bolts aren't a big deal, but if everyone bolts every little crack they find there'd be many more bolts which could be an eyesore or threaten access if they attract undo attention.
Ultimately I think it's usually up to the individual putting in the bolts if they are warranted, and in this case it appears that perhaps the person who put them in didn't really consider if the cumulative impact was worth it. I'm guessing this is Matt's issue which I totally understand. But perhaps instead of yelling at them it would be better to educate them, e.g. asking "is this low quality climbing and rock really worth putting in bolts for?"
That's the nice thing about bolts though. This person can put them in, but if the community decides they aren't worth the impact someone will likely remove them. It's a lot cheaper to remove bolts than place them. If so I just hope removal is done correctly to prevent an even uglier mess.
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2018 - 01:39pm PT
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thanks Fet-- you nicely expressed how I am feeling.
But perhaps instead of yelling at them it would be better to educate them, e.g. asking "is this low quality climbing and rock really worth putting in bolts for?"
Sorry, I was not very clear what I meant by "yelling at them." I mostly told them that they should be thinking more deeply about what lines were worth bolting. I also told them that people have been climbing at black rock for 50 or so years, and that there was a reason that no one had bothered to climb/bolt that specific route.
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bit'er ol' guy
climber
the past
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why? that things getting chopped for sure. donner has a legion of biter'ol guys aka "the committee" i.e.committee of one i.e. bullet or a few others....same old sh#t. why bolt that? every 5 years some one makes the FA of that dirty crack. so many classic burly crack at DS and that's where you spend your time? so, so lame!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Cool Matt. Even if they were defensive at the time (human nature) I hope they thought about it that evening and hopefully they will apply that thinking to future decisions.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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I do wish that people think hard before putting up a new route. The route in question is extremely short, easy, and features questionable rock quality. There are a couple thousands "routes" like it that could exist at donner. I think it would be a disservice to the environment and to the community to bolt every possible surface in the area.
The fact that the climb hasn't been developed yet speaks loudly...
Both very legit comments (in my always humble opinion).
There's no "right" or "wrong" here (which you clearly recognize). I do however wish that more people viewed the resource with the same attitude as Matt's.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 11, 2018 - 10:42am PT
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I saw this article recently: https://www.climbing.com/people/unsent-why-im-gonna-chop-the-bolts-on-adam-ondras-silence-5-15d/
I feel like it's so dumb. It can give some people justification for putting in bolts that shouldn't be there (e.g. "see these crusty old trad dudes are stuck in the past"). I do think there are crusty old trad guys who are against any bolting for sport routes, but for every one of them there are maybe 10 young guys who don't really understand the nuances of where or why bolts are justified. It would be much better to write about and help educate them.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Nov 11, 2018 - 05:08pm PT
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In 1985 I climbed a grainy 30’ vertical hands to off hands crack that we “found” while driving out a now gated/private dirt road below Black Wall.
Spotted it, jumped out of the car, ran over and booted up and soloed the 5.9/10a grainy pile of an “FA”.
When I pulled over the top, with sweaty, rashed up hands and wrists, I spotted one lone bolt staring back up at me.
I remember thinking to myself, this is 1985…of course it had been climbed before.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 11, 2018 - 05:23pm PT
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Me or anybody I know arent against new bolts or routes, just against dumb/contrived/poorly done ones. Still dont know any details
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 11, 2018 - 05:24pm PT
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Theyre not the commitee, theyre the council;)
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 12, 2018 - 08:34am PT
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Does it relieve traffic on popular routes?
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 12, 2018 - 10:18am PT
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Not at all. If it became popular (though it could never, Ive seen this particular route before anchors) it would add to the crowding at the base of rated x/finger licker, which is always full and gets stomped pretty good, it would share the same base.
As others have said, if it was worthwhile to climb, let alone bolt, it would have happened decades ago. Black wall isnt exactly the place for any FA's, its been largely wrung dry many years ago.
Want to do FA's? Go hike around and find a new crag, theyre out there, but you gotta put forth more effort and hiking than black wall.
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glen prior
Trad climber
truckee, ca
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Nov 12, 2018 - 01:50pm PT
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I will be up there later this week and look for it. That shitty little crack could share the Rated-X anchor. There is also a new anchor on Insidious Crack that I heard second-hand, was placed by a guiding service that wanted to be able to rap with a 60 meter rope. At least that anchor will take pressure off a beautiful old juniper that is at the old belay station.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 12, 2018 - 05:22pm PT
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Exactly Glen, (its Dylan), if one wanted to TR that crack, even though the first pitch of rated x is 5.7 and often busy, that short crack thing can easily be toproped from the rated x bolts and a directional....and youd get more than 30' out of it....and be able to TR the first pitch of finger licker.
Point of these bolts still not seen.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 12, 2018 - 05:24pm PT
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Im hoping you find the bolts gone....or a bigger better project beyond those bolts to somehow justify them.
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