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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 6, 2018 - 10:06pm PT
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I was wondering about some route development I witnessed recently at black wall (donner summit)
immediately to the right of "rated X" and "finger licker" is a short, low-angle, Y-shaped crack.
The line is approximately what's shown in blue in the photo below. It ends up being a 30 foot long, ~5.6 crack climb. There are now chain anchors at the top of it.
I guess my question is-- does the community care about short, crappy routes being put up at donner summit?
I ended up yelling at the developers, because I thought they were not putting much thought into what lines were/weren't worth bolting.
best,
matt
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2018 - 07:19am PT
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I don't know the driller. He had a Hilti so he was pretty fast...
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TahoeHangDogger
climber
Olympic Valley, CA
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Depending on who put it in there it will either get chopped or remain...
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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I dunno if it's serious biz or not, but Rated X is on my list of all-time favorite climbs. Partly because of the climb itself (the wildest 5.6 (7? 8?) in the galaxy) partly because of the company -- it was the last time I roped up with Allen Steck.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Everyone knows that black wall is ripe with undeveloped routes and everyone wants all the ignored obscura bolted.....
Get the absolute f*#k outta here, I bet those bolts are already gone
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2018 - 08:21am PT
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The people I ran into were keen on bolting-- after I yelled at them they moved further climber's right to continue their development activities.
They seemed genuinely surprised that I was upset about the route they had bolted.
Their attitude was:
1) the route was unclimbed so they had a right to put an anchor on it.
2) there are bolts everywhere at donner summit.
3) their bolting activity didn't affect me.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Were they using an actual hilti or a blue bosch? Interesting. Unlikely those bolts will stay, theyre probably already gone
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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All i know is what ive read here, there could be more to it that we dont know. Maybe something more than just that anchor that will be great, or some dingalings drilling first and thinking later.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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No lead bolts on the crack? Just an anchor station? Easy walk off or destructive to plants/trees?
If no to the above, why would it be an issue to add an anchor to an alleged FA?
Some missing info for indignation to occur. Or the purpose of the post for gathering potential older FA info is lost in the post?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Kingtut....looking for cracks in a pristine wilderness?
Some here...zero highway noise.
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2018 - 09:51am PT
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'Were they using an actual hilti or a blue bosch? Interesting. Unlikely those bolts will stay, theyre probably already gone."
yeah they had a hilti
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Why is it a crappy route?
Does the crack end at a blank spot where bolts are the only option to descend?
All these details matter.
Bolts aren't inherently bad. Bolts that detract from someone else's experience are.
P.S. Did they climb it on lead? This really shouldn't be a factor is whether the anchor is justified or not but may give insight into the nature of the climb.
There are a few 5.6 and 5.7s in that area. Could this climb provide another option for climbers of that rating and get regular ascents? Or is it just a vanity project that likely will be rarely climbed?
Is the bottom part of the Y a 5.10 that's an alternate start for finger licker? If they extended the upper right part of the Y on a short 5.6 crack that doesn't lead anywhere, that surely doesn't seem worth bolting. Who would want to climb a 5.10 start then to finish on a short 5.6?
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2018 - 10:17am PT
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"But Donner ain't exactly pristine wilderness either. It must be that freeway and blasted road that kills it for me?" You are correct, donner summit is not pristine wilderness, though it is a beautiful and historical area.
No lead bolts on the crack? Just an anchor station? Easy walk off or destructive to plants/trees?
If no to the above, why would it be an issue to add an anchor to an alleged FA?
Some missing info for indignation to occur. Or the purpose of the post for gathering potential older FA info is lost in the post?
As I alluded to in my first post, I don't have a problem with bolts or route development at donner. The anchor was placed in a logical spot for the climb.
I do wish that people think hard before putting up a new route. The route in question is extremely short, easy, and features questionable rock quality. There are a couple thousands "routes" like it that could exist at donner. I think it would be a disservice to the environment and to the community to bolt every possible surface in the area.
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2018 - 10:19am PT
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There are a few 5.6 and 5.7s in that area. Could this climb provide another option for climbers of that rating and get regular ascents? Or is it just a vanity project that likely will be rarely climbed?
The climb is next to "rated X", a 5.7 and one of the most popular climbs at donner summit. People have been climbing here for decades. The fact that the climb hasn't been developed yet speaks loudly...
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Their attitude was:
1) the route was unclimbed so they had a right to put an anchor on it.
2) there are bolts everywhere at donner summit.
3) their bolting activity didn't affect me.
Legit argument. Even if the route they cleaned and put an anchor above is complete sh#t, it is their right to have their adventure. Even if the climb looks too easy to other people etc. This belongs in the First World Problems thread :)
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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I'm somewhat playing devils advocate here to both sides, to hopefully demonstrate it's not usually cut and dry.
1) the route was unclimbed so they had a right to put an anchor on it.
How do they know someone didn't climb and downclimb it and decide it wasn't worth the anchor? Did they talk to people who did the FAs near it?
2) there are bolts everywhere at donner summit.
Bogus argument. That means the local community has decided bolts are possible for a FA, it doesn't justify these bolts.
3) their bolting activity didn't affect me.
Maybe these two bolts won't really affect someone, but left unchecked superfluous bolts all over the place can lead to bolt wars, restricted access (Black Wall is private property if I remember right and if bolt wars start on it the owner could shut down all new route activity or even climbing at all on it).
The one thing I think really has little to do with it is if it's easy. Unless it's easy in a spot that makes no sense (e.g. on top of a difficult crack). If it was a 5.12 crack would you feel the same way?
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2018 - 11:10am PT
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Legit argument. Even if the route they cleaned and put an anchor above is complete sh#t, it is their right to have their adventure. Even if the climb looks too easy to other people etc. This belongs in the First World Problems thread :)
I guess my attitude is-- if all they wanted to do is climb a new route, more power to them. It would have been faster/cheaper/easier to simply down-lead the climb, rather than put in both bolts and big chain anchors at the end of it. Again, this climb is 30 feet long, maximum.
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2018 - 11:13am PT
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The one thing I think really has little to do with it is if it's easy. Unless it's easy in a spot that makes no sense (e.g. on top of a difficult crack). If it was a 5.12 crack would you feel the same way?
The main problem is not how hard/easy the climb is. It is just a bad climb by all the normal metrics used (length; quality of rock; quality of movement).
If these guys had put up a route that was even one-star by the standards of the area, I wouldn't have bitched about it in person or online.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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There are standards for FAs for the Donner area?
Sorry Matt, ya lost me. But then again I only put up Munge Climbs no one else wants to bother with.
As I alluded to in my first post, I don't have a problem with bolts or route development at donner. The anchor was placed in a logical spot for the climb.
I do wish that people think hard before putting up a new route. The route in question is extremely short, easy, and features questionable rock quality. There are a couple thousands "routes" like it that could exist at donner. I think it would be a disservice to the environment and to the community to bolt every possible surface in the area.
Specifically though to your point that it would be a disservice to the environment and community, what exactly is impacted environmentally? What exactly is a disservice to the community?
The upper points about it basically being un-aesthetic (my choice of word), is belied by the references to disservice to environmental or community concerns. What concerns would those be?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Semantics, but environmental impacts include impacts to humans including aesthetic, crowding, loss of access, etc. It is the totality of impacts to the environment.
Environmental impacts may also include ecological impacts (to the local ecosystem). Ecological impacts from bolts are rare, e.g. if it opens up a climb on a rock with falcon nesting spots.
I think the disservice to the community is cumulative. That is two bolts aren't a big deal, but if everyone bolts every little crack they find there'd be many more bolts which could be an eyesore or threaten access if they attract undo attention.
Ultimately I think it's usually up to the individual putting in the bolts if they are warranted, and in this case it appears that perhaps the person who put them in didn't really consider if the cumulative impact was worth it. I'm guessing this is Matt's issue which I totally understand. But perhaps instead of yelling at them it would be better to educate them, e.g. asking "is this low quality climbing and rock really worth putting in bolts for?"
That's the nice thing about bolts though. This person can put them in, but if the community decides they aren't worth the impact someone will likely remove them. It's a lot cheaper to remove bolts than place them. If so I just hope removal is done correctly to prevent an even uglier mess.
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2018 - 01:39pm PT
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thanks Fet-- you nicely expressed how I am feeling.
But perhaps instead of yelling at them it would be better to educate them, e.g. asking "is this low quality climbing and rock really worth putting in bolts for?"
Sorry, I was not very clear what I meant by "yelling at them." I mostly told them that they should be thinking more deeply about what lines were worth bolting. I also told them that people have been climbing at black rock for 50 or so years, and that there was a reason that no one had bothered to climb/bolt that specific route.
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bit'er ol' guy
climber
the past
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why? that things getting chopped for sure. donner has a legion of biter'ol guys aka "the committee" i.e.committee of one i.e. bullet or a few others....same old sh#t. why bolt that? every 5 years some one makes the FA of that dirty crack. so many classic burly crack at DS and that's where you spend your time? so, so lame!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Cool Matt. Even if they were defensive at the time (human nature) I hope they thought about it that evening and hopefully they will apply that thinking to future decisions.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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I do wish that people think hard before putting up a new route. The route in question is extremely short, easy, and features questionable rock quality. There are a couple thousands "routes" like it that could exist at donner. I think it would be a disservice to the environment and to the community to bolt every possible surface in the area.
The fact that the climb hasn't been developed yet speaks loudly...
Both very legit comments (in my always humble opinion).
There's no "right" or "wrong" here (which you clearly recognize). I do however wish that more people viewed the resource with the same attitude as Matt's.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 11, 2018 - 10:42am PT
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I saw this article recently: https://www.climbing.com/people/unsent-why-im-gonna-chop-the-bolts-on-adam-ondras-silence-5-15d/
I feel like it's so dumb. It can give some people justification for putting in bolts that shouldn't be there (e.g. "see these crusty old trad dudes are stuck in the past"). I do think there are crusty old trad guys who are against any bolting for sport routes, but for every one of them there are maybe 10 young guys who don't really understand the nuances of where or why bolts are justified. It would be much better to write about and help educate them.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Nov 11, 2018 - 05:08pm PT
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In 1985 I climbed a grainy 30’ vertical hands to off hands crack that we “found” while driving out a now gated/private dirt road below Black Wall.
Spotted it, jumped out of the car, ran over and booted up and soloed the 5.9/10a grainy pile of an “FA”.
When I pulled over the top, with sweaty, rashed up hands and wrists, I spotted one lone bolt staring back up at me.
I remember thinking to myself, this is 1985…of course it had been climbed before.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 11, 2018 - 05:23pm PT
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Me or anybody I know arent against new bolts or routes, just against dumb/contrived/poorly done ones. Still dont know any details
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 11, 2018 - 05:24pm PT
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Theyre not the commitee, theyre the council;)
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 12, 2018 - 08:34am PT
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Does it relieve traffic on popular routes?
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 12, 2018 - 10:18am PT
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Not at all. If it became popular (though it could never, Ive seen this particular route before anchors) it would add to the crowding at the base of rated x/finger licker, which is always full and gets stomped pretty good, it would share the same base.
As others have said, if it was worthwhile to climb, let alone bolt, it would have happened decades ago. Black wall isnt exactly the place for any FA's, its been largely wrung dry many years ago.
Want to do FA's? Go hike around and find a new crag, theyre out there, but you gotta put forth more effort and hiking than black wall.
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glen prior
Trad climber
truckee, ca
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Nov 12, 2018 - 01:50pm PT
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I will be up there later this week and look for it. That shitty little crack could share the Rated-X anchor. There is also a new anchor on Insidious Crack that I heard second-hand, was placed by a guiding service that wanted to be able to rap with a 60 meter rope. At least that anchor will take pressure off a beautiful old juniper that is at the old belay station.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 12, 2018 - 05:22pm PT
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Exactly Glen, (its Dylan), if one wanted to TR that crack, even though the first pitch of rated x is 5.7 and often busy, that short crack thing can easily be toproped from the rated x bolts and a directional....and youd get more than 30' out of it....and be able to TR the first pitch of finger licker.
Point of these bolts still not seen.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 12, 2018 - 05:24pm PT
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Im hoping you find the bolts gone....or a bigger better project beyond those bolts to somehow justify them.
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| Messages 1 - 35 of total 35 in this topic |
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