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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 5, 2018 - 06:39am PT
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Most new ranch owners in the west made their money elsewhere and buy ranches more for their trout and elk than for their cattle raising capabilities.
As property values rise ranching, already a marginal business, simply becomes economically unsustainable.
While I cringe at the idea of the “gentleman rancher,” I do think the trend is inevitable and good from an environmental standpoint.
The Nature Conservancy is also a big factor in new ranch ownership...the Dugout Ranch in Indian Creek is an example.
The future looks better for elk and pronghorn than it does for cattle which I think is a good thing.
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couchmaster
climber
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Ted Turner all but got a bunch of small towns ghosted buying up farms in the upper midwest. 2 million acres in 12 states and Argentina as well). Not necessarily a bad thing. Or a good thing, lots of variables. Now the bison run free and the land has come back (original grasses etc). Be interesting to see if Turner gifts it to the country as a conservation area when he passes or if it will get broken up into multiple farms again.
https://www.businessinsider.com/biggest-landowners-america
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2018 - 06:49am PT
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That area has been depopulating for quite some time and the trend is likely to continue...you simply can’t keep them down on the farm when the fun and fortune allure of urban areas is so strong.
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Don’t forget You von Choiunard’s buffalo ranch in Sout Dakota. Check it out and order your meat from them.
https://wildideabuffalo.com/
I did.
Mal
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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I think it is a great thing, especially if you keep the riffraff, like this guy, out and away from the climbing rocks, refuse other rec user groups, focus on thinning timber so animals are easier to spot for to kill, etc. (/sarcasm)
hermit master obviously does not often need to acquire drinking water from the same sources that the cattle are stamping into cowpie muckpits. maybe city folks are just silk-tummied lilywhites, wanting good water left relatively good, but then....
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Someone here must know him. Ask Yvon to allow traditional bison hunts in his herd, a la the Maasai. It might help keep the buffalo hard,... stretch their legs once in a while. I'd buy a ticket to see it happen. Until then, I may be another upper middle class white person, tasting me some bison, maybe at best, eating my heart out.
(Edit: I'm sure Yvon has thought of the buffalo peoples. He seems kind of trad, but still, it could be rad.)
Do it!!!
Edit, edit: please
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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^^^ from the wildideabuffalo blog
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2018 - 08:06am PT
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HermitMaster....I have a different take on urban areas. Personally, I think the more urbinization the better off the planet is. Population growth is inevitable but where you put all those people isn’t.
China has the world’s largest population living in an area slightly smaller than the US. In recent years there has been a massive population shift from the country to cities. In the outskirts of Bejing and Shanghai there are hundreds of high rise apatment buildings. Even with a growing population the countryside is losing people leaving more room for the animals we share this planet with.
If you’re going to have a lot of people, stack them on top of each other rather than spreading them out. Our species of “intellegent ape” seems to like it that way...gives them more opportunity to get lucky.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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If I was native, if I had any stones, I'd poach the sh#t out of one of his buffalo. Take the meat to people in need, maybe leave behind some of the best bits...just for the chance to meet the owner.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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I bet you'd have a good chance at meeting the owner's lawyers doing something like that...
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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You need look no further than the vanishing family farms across the United States. This has happened due to any number of factors, including demand for cheap food (driven by falling wages since the 1970s), government subsidies for big agribusiness that fuel factory farming as opposed to traditional family farms, and general apathy amongst the American people.
government subsidies for big agribusiness that fuel factory farming this
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Personally, I think the more urbinization the better off the planet is.
Jim, spot on. I believe saturation to be one of our greatest woes in civilization. So basically ruin just a little bit of EVERYTHING. Better to keep the bulk of it all concentrated.
Arne
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Nice meme hermit, but ignores the actual facts, urban dwellers per capita use less energy than rural dwellers. One can live more efficiently in a big city.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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I got to jump in here with my two cents... I know many wealthy landowners that have done fantastic thing for wildlife around the world. Many due it to turn a profit (that is fine) others spend the money to simply help out their passions and don't make money off it.
My father has purchased several properties just to improve wildlife habitat. We make no money on them, but it is his passion to keep these areas away from developers. The Feds ,state and various groups often visit to gain knowledge on issues they are working on public lands.
He is approaching 80 years old. His love of wildlife and trees, I believe has helped many critters. The problem is we both love the trees so much we hate to cut them. Property taxes have to be paid.
That said, I don't have the money to finance his goodwill when he passes, and worry about the decisions I will have to make.
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Trump
climber
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I guess it’s healthy, I guess the air is clean.
I guess those people have fun with their neighbors and friends.
Look at that kitchen and all of that food.
Look at them eat it guess it tastes real good.
And I have learned how to look at these things.
A straight line exists between me and the good things.
I have found the line and it’s direction is known to me.
Absolute trust keeps me going in the right direction.
Any intrusion is met with a heart full of the good thing.
A good thing? We all see our straight line as a good thing. The elk and pronghorn might see all the humans, with our hearts full of the good thing, being dead as a good thing, but that’s not the straight line I prefer to see with my human way of looking at things. I expect climate change is gonna jumble up all those straight lines anyway.
Sure, agreed, take away my steaks but leave me the birds and the bees is the straight lined way that I’ve learned to look at these things too. Coincidentally, I expect that I’ll be one of the ones who gets to enjoy those birds and bees.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Was not young Yovon involved in poaching a deer in the Tetons?
It's dirtbag lore and recounted in either Camp 4 or RR's bio.
I spent the summer with the fishing guide brother who had two outdoors channels on most of the time. Lots of places cater to hunters who come to bowshoot deer on private land. Good idea, economically.
You can't hardly make it farming the land anymore, so you can't blame the owners for wanting to "make a buck."
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Anything is better than an industrial farm. Although the rich tend to like properties with decorative crags in the backyard that people are supposed to stay off of. The private ranches can also be annoying when they block access to public land. In CO it seems like there is so much to explore but it's out of reach. Actually hunters are good at that, and buy the gps maps that keep you from getting shot to death by landowners.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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The eco trophy ranches might be good if we had the right to roam laws they have in Britain and Scandihoovia.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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One can live more efficiently in a big city.
Possibly, but at the expense of ones quality of life and mental health?
Not possibly, definitely.
Yeah it is personal preference. Plenty of down sides to rural living, that is why it is so much cheaper to live in rural areas.
There is a interesting window into urban/rural stress levels. Gun ownership rates
The primary reason giving for gun ownership is protection. Are rural dwellers more fearful than urban dwellers? Fear would equal stress, right? The rationale for the difference could be that urban dwellers are closer to help when it is needed. Doesn't this contribute to a higher quality of living for urban dwellers?
Transportation - car breaks down in the boonies, you are screwed. No Uber, no bus, no subway. not good.
Medical care - much better in the city. Boonies, you take what you can get.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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'6 in 10'? I bet it's more like 8 in 10 (at least) in the rural area I live in. People in this little mountain town used to pride themselves that they could leave doors unlocked...but not any longer. Crime and other sketchiness is waaaaay up in recent years. It's not fear....it's being realistic about the fact things have changed.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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If we lived that close to Hemet/San Jacinto, I'd lock the doors too.
Roger that! Hemet’s motto: MMGA (Make Meth Great Again)
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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The eco trophy ranches might be good if we had the right to roam laws they have in Britain and Scandihoovia. In those countries you don't have yahoos with guns shooting at everything. I've had to abort hiking trips on the west side of the Sierra because of a half dozen idiots who thought the trailhead would be a great place to go fire their guns.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2018 - 11:19am PT
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By their teeth you will know them.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 5, 2018 - 10:05am PT
The primary reason giving for gun ownership is protection. Are rural dwellers more fearful than urban dwellers? Fear would equal stress, right? The rationale for the difference could be that urban dwellers are closer to help when it is needed. Doesn't this contribute to a higher quality of living for urban dwellers?
That's some convoluted thinking.
Thanks for the laugh.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Fat Dad, hunting is still legal over there, the big differences being that you must have most of yer teeth and you have to take a slew of safety courses and pass a knowledge test of the laws. To wit, Rool One being: Thou may not blast away wherever thou desirest.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Right to roam?
Not on my trophy ranch.
Some guy shot up my no trespassing sign and I replaced it in hours (broken window theory) and I added a bunch.
I fenced the range maggots out, and put out water and salt licks for the pronghorns, making for healthier rangeland.
I can't save everyone but some family come first. I'm not elitist, just practical.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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The eco trophy ranches might be good if we had the right to roam laws they have in Britain and Scandihoovia.
I doubt those countries have nearly as many white trash bubbas and tweakers, as we do.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Redmond, Oregon
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Culture "wars" going on here in central O. Here's a nice sign along the road to Smith Rock in Terrebone:
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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In Britain and Scandihoovia toothless rednecks (there are some) don’t generally go tramping or hiking, as it were. Land owners there may not like it but
A. It’s the bloody law
B. People are generally well behaved and appreciative of their rights.
I realize that wouldn’t work here, for a variety of reasons, BUT IT COULD!
Hikers are a decent lot and with a little education they could be learned up to close gates and behave. Given that they would be a benefit to land owners if they acted as extra eyes and ears and had the sac to report nefariousness. I know it’s a pipe dream.
BTW, I forget the stats but every year in Britain something like 6 walkers are killed by cows!
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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"If we lived that close to Hemet/San Jacinto, I'd lock the doors too."
And Banning...and Indio...and Beaumont...and Anza...
We're surrounded. But truly, it didn't use to be that way- Idyllwild really use to have an actual 'wild' feel to it, and was not very known. And there was a time that even Hemet was a coveted place to live, esp. for retired folk looking for a good place for their twilight years...
But not anymore. This town is just barely 'rural'- resident populations prolly won't increase much in the future, but visitation just keeps going up and up.
Gotta keep the homestead protected these days....
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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It depends, from a casual observer's POV it probably isn't really discernible because humans tend to anthropomorphize when musing about the landscape, environs and animals, as if they were once one in a past life.... Water rights(all kinds of fun stuff here that might surprise some), hydrologic functions, invasive species, habitat and land(ownership/use) adjacency issues are large pieces of this pie and are the topics I'd start to look at first and not in the order I presented them. It isn't an easy question to answer and can turn into a pretty cool thread to read and learn from.
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couchmaster
climber
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How about the "pioneer woman" TV show chick. She has a cooking show. 430,000 acres they own and the government allegedly pays them $2 million a year so burros and wild horses can roam the place.
http://www.Invasivespecies.com ?
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johntp
Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
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It is what it is. High rollers buying property. Not much different than Tompkins and Chouinard buying spreads in Patagonia/Chile. All depends on the stewardship.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2018 - 03:18pm PT
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Good call Moose...I am one of many who made their money elsewhere and then moved to a “very particular” rural area to enjoy, in my case, the mountain/desert environment. A trophy rancher in miniature.
Generally speaking, rural people worldwide have a much tougher life than urban folks. Poverty is rampant and many goods cost much more. Rural people tend to have poorer health and shorter life spans than their urban counterparts.
The rural people in Patagonian Chile, where I have a house, make half of what people in Santiago pull in and pay far more for basics like food and fuel.
The idea that rural people live happy and healthy lives in an idyllic setting is largely a myth. Having said that, I realize that there are many exceptions to this basic truth...especially in America.
Many here on ST who now live in special places of their choice (like me) paid their dues and earned their way in far more urban settings.
In Pakistan you don’t see the goiters from iodine insufficiency and the rotten teeth with city folk that you see with their rural fellow citizens and this is commonplace throughout the world.
Edit: it is commonly thought that Chouinard is a large landowner in Patagonia like his late friend Doug Tompkins. Not true...Chouinard spends quality time there fly fishing and visiting wild places but he is not a large landowner. I am sure he is a major contributer to “Tompkins Conservation” a fund established by Doug and Kris.
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johntp
Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
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Edit: it is commonly thought that Chouinard is a large landowner in Patagonia like his late friend Doug Tompkins. Not true...Chouinard spends quality time there fly fishing and visiting wild places but he is not a large landowner. I am sure he is a major contributer to “Tompkins Conservation” a fund established by Doug and Kris.
Jim, I did not mean my post to be a dig. My point was "stewardship". I don't care who buys land as long as they practice good stewardship. I stand corrected on Chouinard's holdings in SA.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2018 - 03:38pm PT
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Understood...YC certainly stands out in stewardship.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Taxes are too low when there are scads of rich SOB's able to buy up whole swaths of land out of their pocket change. We need more school, healthcare, and infrastructure spending, not tax breaks for the richest few.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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It wouldn't work here because of GUNS.
Tut, you need to get out more. There are plenty of guns in Scandinavia and Britain.
They just don’t lug them around when they go hiking. Come to think of it I don’t see
many American hikers packing, do you?
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Less cattle is good. Second home owners buying ranches and blocking off historical public access to public land is not so good. What the increased property values do to our taxes( we don’t get grandfathered like in California) seems like crime. You can’t afford to live next to one of those bastards.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
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Land should be put to its best productive use which in the case of western ranch lands is public recreation. Massive private holdings are feudal in nature and should be taken by eminent domain.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2018 - 03:51pm PT
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I’m with you but let's not hold our breaths.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Fat Dad, hunting is still legal over there, the big differences being that you must have most of yer teeth and you have to take a slew of safety courses and pass a knowledge test of the laws. To wit, Rool One being: Thou may not blast away wherever thou desirest. OK, now I understand donini's answer. True enough.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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I’m a country person, have been so all my life. I fully endorse the growth of cities, because while I appreciate my personal space where I live, I equally appreciate being to travel an hour an a half to a beautiful city and appreciate what that place has to offer. Cities are amazing! Love them, cherish their culture and history. Their vibrancy. Do the same in your rural surroundings. I know I do.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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Conversation seems to be devolving. Chouinard showed up at my remote fishing camp as we were cleaning up. I had never met him, but he was on the Cay to bonefish. It was unannounced and my father stood on the porch as he waded out and gave directions on where to cast. The lighting was bad for site fishing..........
He caught one or two, then tom browcaw showed up and they said they were filming a show about bonefishing
My point is.... Don't judge a book by its cover... Yvon was stripped down to his underware and smiling like a child on our porch very excited about catching a fish. Haha!
Being able to have land and share it with folks that treat it right and appreciate all you do to maintain it is a great feeling.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Game ranches are like titty bars- captive pursuits negates 50% of what makes life's challenges worthwhile and narrows your desire down to the worst of intentions. Paying to have these things served on a platter may be a sign that you're slightly perverted at the very least.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Likewise Brandon,well said.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Personally, I think the more urbinization the better off the planet is
Hows that again Jim?? As long as they don't interfere with your view from your home in South America or your Ouray home?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2018 - 05:11pm PT
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Well batrock...given that the average distance from my two homes to the nearest traffic light is 85 miles I don't think that urbanization will encroach on me in my lifetime.
Do the math, the real culprit is population growth. Urbanization is just the best way to deal with it. Stack them up in high rises rather than spread them out to occupy precious rural and wild lands. When urbanization spreads like sun burn and occupys the entire skin of the planet we will all be well and truly f*#ked.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Jim, I'm doing my part and living in Los Angeles. Why don't you sell your bits of paradise and come join me and help save the planet. Put your money where your mouth is.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2018 - 05:35pm PT
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Have fun in the City of Angels....I think I’ll ride out my twilight years where I am. Paid my dues in big cities now I take some comfort in helping, in a very small way, in bringing some income and increased environmental awareness to two small communities in glorious settings.
If you compare the Ouray of today to the mining town of the 1880’s you will see that the environment and the wildlife have improved many fold. Nature does better when “elitists” like me are the caretakers rather than extraction industries or many, not all, ranchers..
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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I'm not disagreeing with your premise but you might want to think about the optics when making statements like that. There are millions of people who would give their left nut to have what you have and to hear you say that they should live stacked on top of each other while you sip red on the deck just doesn't sit well.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2018 - 05:48pm PT
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Oh well, we each make our own path. Mine has been much more difficult than you will ever know. I am past the optics stage in my life, hence no avatar.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Batrock?
Per your previous & this last statement of yours:
I'm not disagreeing with your premise but you might want to think about the optics when making statements like that. There are millions of people who would give their left nut to have what you have and to hear you say that they should live stacked on top of each other while you sip red on the deck just doesn't sit well.
Are you living in LA due to a moral crusade on your part to lessen your impact on our fragile environment?
If so, I commend you.
And of course you walk or bike to work & don't own a car.
Again I commend you.
And do you intend this life as your lifelong future, or do you have other plans?
One note on the earlier posts about rural gun ownership. In Idaho, its 100% gun ownership. I don't know anyone here who doesn't have multiple firearms.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Fritz, all of the above. In fact i retired so I don't have to drive to work anymore.
I don't think anyone would choose to live in a congested crowded city if they had a choice. I think it's funny when the wealthy ask us to to sacrifice for the greater good. It's always easier to sacrifice when you can afford to. Not that Jim is wealthy, I have no idea what his financial situation is and I am not talking about Jim, just in general terms. If you are going to tell others how to live and what to give up you better be doing the same yourself.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Batrock! I'm impressed! Thank you for your efforts.
One last question? Do you have non-adopted children, or are you what I think of as someone truly concerned for our environment?
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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No, I never said I was that committed. I do try and do my part, I have solar on my house and own a electric car that I use to drive to my local crag, but I also have a Jeep that I use for more remote locations or longer trips that an electric car can't reach.
I can afford those things and afford to "make sacrifices", I wouldn't expect others to do the same. Fritz, you live in Idaho but I doubt you would move to inner city LA to save the planet. We all do what we can, I wouldn't ask you or Jim to leave the beautiful places you live to "do your Part" and I wouldn't ask someone who is striving to leave the crowded city for a more peaceful life in the country to ditch that and stay.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
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Some of the highest real estate prices world wide are in dense urban environments so the idea that it’s some sacrifice to live in them seems a bit misplaced. Not all urban areas are ghettos. The only real city I’ve lived in is San Francisco and the quality of my life there was quite high, I could walk to do my day to day chores, knew my neighborhood shopkeepers and took public transit to work. Manhattan is similar and so are lots of European cities.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2018 - 08:04pm PT
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Batrock...I commend you for being a very principled guy and I understand your critique of me. Keep in mind this thread morphed as they always do from it’s original intent. The movement around the world towards urbanization came up (maybe I brought it up) and I posited that it was a very welcome trend in helping to deal with unrelenting population growth.
The reasons for urbanization are manifold as well as inexorable. I never countenanced telling people that it was better to live in urban areas...I don’t have to, the dye is cast in that regard. I aplaud it as a trend that will help preserve areas for biodiversity but I don’t choose to live in an urban area at this stage in my life...been there, done that. Consequently, I don’t feel duplicitous in applauding a trend that I don’t want to be a part of.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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That’s a fair response Jim.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Nature does better when “elitists” like me are the caretakers rather than extraction industries or many, not all, ranchers..
With all due respect . . . what evidence is there to support this opinion?
Every human that has ever lived on this planet has for better or worse had an effect . . . modern inhabitants a far greater one than their predecessors.
The recent White Fir mortality in and around Ouray would probably shock the old timers who were logging for mine timbers and building materials BITD.
Are we really being good stewards of the land by living wherever we like through the burning of fossil fuels?
It is a complicated reality we face, we are all hypocrites.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2018 - 08:44pm PT
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It’s hard to avoid being hypocritical but it’s a matter of degree. There were many more people living in Ouray County in the 1880’s during the mining boom then there are now and the scars they left behind are clearly evident today. I have no doubt that people living here today are far less exploitive of the environment then were the gold crazed extractive miners over a century ago.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Ah Batrock! I have much respect for what you do for the environment, but I've never contributed to the runation of our cherished Earth by spawning.
Unfortunately, your children & their offspring x 100, carry the ruin of our planet with them.
Meanwhile, childless Fritz & Heidi will live rural & grow their own garden, have a pet cat, drive a fair amount, & do world travel, all without owning RV's, ATV's,vacation homes, gas-powered watercraft, & suffering daily commutes, knowing their environmental abuse will cease in a small number of years.
PS! I can sell you some carbon offsets for your offspring.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Fritz, I was with you right up to the point you said you have a cat. Now I know yer just a f&cking loon.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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And evil....!!!!
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Ah batrock, cats are another part of what is needed to survive in rural America. We do have two Great Horned Owls, who mouse all night, but Harley (the cat) has brought in a mouse a day for the last two weeks. It's hard to say how many he eats that we don't note.
And of course, mice are just part of the environment, but they do cause damage, like eatting our carrots this fall.
Cats eating rodents are good, & knee-jerk urban cat-haters are haters.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Fritz, no kids that you know about...don't abandon your trad roots
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2018 - 09:02pm PT
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Harley rules...rodents don’t dare get near those carrots!
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Thanks for the response Jim.
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Come to think of it I don’t see
many American hikers packing, do you? Reilly, just because you don't see them packing, doesn't mean they aren't.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Not spawning is not a good thing. The trick is to have sustainable well rounded and enlightened children who will fight the good fight.
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DanaB
climber
CO
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I don't think anyone would choose to live in a congested crowded city if they had a choice.
I would. I often drive from Golden to the Poudre to climb. I'd much rather live in the West Village, the Back Bay, etc. than on one of those isolated houses I see in that area.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Say what you will about Chinese oppression, conformity, etc. but they do a damn good job with efficient land use: highrises give way immediately to farms at the edge of town, little plots of food shoehorned everywhere, "composting" toilets (or at least lots of night-soil recycling), free electric trams in town. Too bad they fell in love with cars like everybody else- those streets crammed with bicycles are definitely in the rear-view window now.
Trophy ranches suck, but not as bad as ranchettes! At least they're a bit bigger.
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Nick Danger
Ice climber
Arvada, CO
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What a thoughtful and enjoyable read this thread has been. Thanks, Jim, for starting this, and thanks to all the tacoistas for posting up. I would love to live as Fritz does, but alas, I have been dealt a different hand (not complaining, we all make our choices). Actually, I think we are all doing the best we can with whatever it is we have.
Cheers
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2018 - 07:06am PT
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For most of us life is all about trade offs in nearly everything we do. We’re lucky, we have choices we can make. In much of the world people don’t have choices to make, they just cope with the lot they are given....which often isn't much.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Here in Urban California, people who build new homes and have extensive remodels done are subject to Title 24 Energy Standards.
The Architects and local municipalities tend to quickly gloss over the implications so when I finally come along, as the builder with the actual cost and the details of compliance, the owners typically have a sh!t fit. They generally cry about government intrusion and try to bend every rule possible along the way.
Of course when I see them a year later and they brag about only using their heating system twice last winter and their electric bill is down 30% they still harbor enough resentment to gripe about Government Intrusion.
The benefits of applied environmentalism is an invisible thing in the mind of most voters and consumers unfortunately.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Yeah, my house cost a pile but the insulation was so good last summer that I used a total of only about 14-16 hours of AC for the whole season.
It only makes sense to invest in long term savings, good environmentally vas well.
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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^^ for sure, when I got my place, I added a foot or so of blow-in insulation in my attic, my walls are fine so I didn't go there. I have a little boiler and baseboard radiators. My electric bill is under $100 in the winter. It is also ~750sqft. It was kinda hard to find what I wanted when I could afford a house. It had to be less than 800sqft, have mature trees and have a garage I could work on house, car and moto projects in. All the little houses were shanties on a micro lot without garages. It took about 8 months to find a zone meeting my parameters. The large trees do require an arborist visit once every ten years and costs about 1-2k.
Anyway, someone above mentioned that land should be managed/used for its maximum productivity and that is pretty much how I see it and maximum productivity should consider habitat, ecosystems services and sustainability, not just $$. I kind of have a problem with "it's mine and I can do whatever I want with it" when talking about large pieces of land. It is one thing to paint your house mint with pink trim and another to run cattle and allow them in riparian zones and then another to subdivide, etc. etc. Also, everyone I know who lives out in the country uses hella more petrol compared to others in towns and cities.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I have more than 60 square meters of solar panels and 48 enormous batteries = electric independence for decades.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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I don't think anyone would choose to live in a congested crowded city if they had a choice. This may be your opinion however there are hundreds of millions of people worldwide who happily live in big cities.
It all depends on the city. San Francisco is struggling with the influx of newly rich techies who are taking over the housing market from lower income "traditional" workers. New apartment blocks are going up daily. And these new residents are not living in SF for lack of options. They can afford to live just about anywhere and there is a parade of private buses hauling thousands of workers to and from their daily grind in Silicon Valley.
They have the choice: Silicon Valley or the San Francisco peninsula or San Francisco itself. And it's San Francisco that tens of thousands are choosing.
I happily live in the Santa Cruz mountains between Silly Valley and the pacific ocean. I'd also happily live in San Francisco (been there and done that), London or Stockholm, or Amsterdam or Paris or.....
Well planned and maintained cities are excellent places to live. They are an efficient use of resources. There are just so few of them in the U.S.
Somewhat off track but less esoteric: With global warming there will of necessity be an enormous shift in resource allocations. Of all kinds of resources. Consider the historic California fires in the past three years. Tens of thousands of homes and apartments have been destroyed. Hundreds of thousands of acres of rangeland have been destroyed. From the Oregon border to San Diego. Even wealthy towns like the Oakland Hills, Montecito and Santa Barbara have to be rebuilt. Thousands of acres in the Sacramento River Valley are slowly being inundated due to sea level rise combined with over building.
Dozens of the world's most important and prosperous cities will be significantly altered as the tides and storm surges push inexorably inland. Not to mention the more frequent and powerful hurricanes. As an example of an altered wealthy enclave, Hurricane Sandy destroyed much of Fire Island (I was there to see it happen).
Parenthetically, a startup company in the Bay Area is close to commercializing synthetic meat. Creating meat that uses much less resources than beef on the hoof.
In 50 years the only remaining American ranches might just be Trophy Ranches.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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I am not talking about living in a city, I am talking about true crowded congested living situations. Govt housing high rises and situations you find in China. Not living in a cool metro area like LA or Seattle, San Fran or almost any other large city in the US. Most living in the US even in poorer parts of large metro areas are living much better than those stacked on top of each other in developing countries. Hell I live in LA and enjoy the culture and amenities but I wouldn't want to be living 4 families to a room.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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MMMMMMMM tasty, synthetic meat!
Climate change is going to radically change some building codes (not to mention insurance costs).
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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I don’t know ,I had an Incredaburger the other day,it was good......lol.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Are these trophy ranches a sign that we are/ have slipped back into the caste system.....
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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True enough ,does that mean they are good?
I once spent over a year building one near Fraser Colorado,the house went quick,like 5 months ,the wood fence,nearly 4 miles of it ,not so much.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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its great if the people are nice and let folks hunt, fish, hike and climb on their land but when the fence and posted signs go up are we right back in the middle ages?
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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I have more than 60 square meters of solar panels and 48 enormous batteries = electric independence for decades.
Way to go!
Every home in the SW US should have an installation.
Thank you for your positive example!
"Keep Manhattan, just give me that countryside."
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Pete_N
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Ken Ilgunas has an interesting book: This Land Is Our Land: How We Lost the Right to Roam and How to Take It Back. He describes the laws in both Britain and Sweden in considerable detail and argues that it'd actually be feasible--as well as beneficial--to re-introduce the "right" in the US (he also argues that the profusion of No Trespassing signs in our country is a relatively recent phenomenon). It's hard for me to imagine how we could inculcate our society here with what'd be necessary, but it sounds like it works really well in Europe and it'd be an amazing thing here in the western US. There's some filler in the book, but it's worth reading.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Thanks, Pete_N, that sounds a worthy read. It is amazingly liberating to just park, or get off the bus, and light out across the land in Britain and Scandinavia. I aver it does everyone good in the sense of shared stewardship as it were and responsibility. The vast majority of the time when you’re walking on private land there you are on a path and it would be most untoward to stray from the straight and narrow. If large land owners here had any sense they would welcome hikers and twitchers by marking trails and such.
I’ve not had any run-ins with angry cows but have encountered some scary sheep!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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If I allowed people to "roam" on my ranch it would quickly get torn up by ORVs and covered in trash.
We live in a country of slobs.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
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There is some truth to that. Sometimes when I go fly fishing I get upset about private stretches of river, but then if you go to somewhere with easy public access it's trashed. So I hike into wilderness areas.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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The local forests are deemed multi-use which means who ever has the most destructive internal combustion toys can monopolize and discourage other users from recreating on national forest roads making them impassable...I'm talking about the moto bikers and razor wankers who , besides destroying national forests roads , continue to illegally drive off designated roads onto the forest under-story to hoe and disc more natural resources... what Toker villain says is sadly true about Americans'.... A River passes thru it...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Yeah right; "income inequality"!!!
Boo fukking hoo.
So much easier to gripe about all the injustice than work your ass off and sacrifice to improve one's lot in the world.
I have a friend who came here from China on a student visa.
She is now an American citizen, a business manager, and well on her way to her first million in less than 10 years.
That said, some have it pretty hard. Karen Kor got laid off so McCall and I are helping out.
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couchmaster
climber
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I'm with Jim on this one.
Batrock noted: "I don't think anyone would choose to live in a congested crowded city if they had a choice."
Right here. We made that choice. Literally. We both came from/grew up in, rural areas. The choice was to live full on inner city or outside the burbs, country: like we had grown up with. (In the west anywhere, inner city isn't like living NY City or Baltimore inner city of course) We discussed it extensively a long time back and chose inner city. Heart of darkness. Living in the burbs was too wasteful to us. The interesting part for us was watching our neighborhood change in the 33 years we've lived in the 2nd inner city home we had. I will confess that I don't miss the colorful neighbors, shootings, the plentiful prostitutes I never availed nor walking out on the back deck early one morning and picking a .45 round off the deck or waking up reading about the drug deal that went bad and 3 Mexican fellas just down the street each getting blasted right in the head by someones 9mm at 2 am.
In fact, the gentrification and whitification of the neighborhood has been both funny and interesting. New neighbors are a differing breed: the ones 2 doors down just paid a million bucks for a home that was crammed full of poor folks during the depression but had been updated and is now de rigor "period" updated. They don't really work, he's a "poet", shes a "life coach". White folk's from the east coast. They're not shooting any guns off though, say, sitting on the front porch and trying to hit the metal fence post across the street, so there is that.
The huge benefit is that had we moved to the 'burbs, any house we would have purchased would have both cost much more and appreciated much much less.
"We all do what we can," We all do, and it all helps. I know folks that do much much more than us. Makes me feel lame at times.
Branching out, next subject:
"Taxes are too low when there are scads of rich SOB's able to buy up whole swaths of land out of their pocket change. We need more school, healthcare, and infrastructure spending, not tax breaks for the richest few."
Everyone in the US has shitload of Scratch. I support it too. We get folks from other country's often come visit and stay and they're shocked that even our poor live so well. Interesting that you don't mention the cost of our out of control overreaching military posture worldwide and massive government bureaucracy. Someone needs to pay for that unless the world goes up in smoke and ends, it ain't cheap. Just the rich should pay? We're borrowing to pay for it now, if the world survives the kids will have to pay for it, and regardless, no one believes that kind of expenditure and debt is sustainable for multiple reasons so maybe not worth discussing.
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Yeti
Trad climber
Ketchum, Idaho
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Nov 10, 2018 - 07:26am PT
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A column I wrote for The Weekly Sun in Hailey, Idaho a couple of years ago:
THE HARRIMAN LEGACY TO IDAHO
It is much larger than Sun Valley
by
Dick Dorworth
Most people reading this are aware that today’s Wood River Valley and its nearby communities would be very different, socially, culturally and economically, if Averell Harriman’s attention had not been directed to the area in the 1930s. Though Harriman was a successful businessman, politician and diplomat—he served as U.S. Secretary of Commerce, Governor of New York, U.S. Ambassador to the Soviet Union, U.S. Ambassador to Britain and was twice a candidate for the Democrat presidential nomination (losing both times to Adlai Stevenson, whose son John lives on a ranch near Bellevue)—he is best known in Idaho as the man who in 1935 gave Austrian Count Felix Schaffgotsch the job of finding a site for a world class ski resort in western America that could be reached by Harriman’s Union Pacific Railroad tracks.
The Count found Ketchum and Harriman found the Brass Ranch a couple of miles to the east and the rest, as the saying goes, is history. Sun Valley history. In a seven month frenzy of construction in 1936 the Sun Valley Lodge was built on the Brass Ranch and the world’s first chairlifts were installed on Proctor and Dollar Mountains. Eighty years after Schaffgotsch began his search Harriman’s legacy to the Wood River Valley continues to flourish, nourish and inspire local citizens, part-time residents and tourists alike. Sun Valley has shaped, touched and enhanced the lives of countless people living in Idaho and throughout the world in ways that can never be measured but which are acknowledged every day, all of it a legacy to Idaho from W. Averell Harriman.
And it is only part of Harriman’s legacy to the Gem State.
This year is the 50th anniversary of the Idaho State Park System, which would not have been born without Averell Harriman and his brother Roland, and would not have survived and thrived this long without their foresight and stipulations in transferring the 11,000 acre Harriman Ranch in eastern Idaho to the state They called it the The Railroad Ranch and the brothers were interested in preserving it in perpetuity “…..to keep it from being chopped up into subdivision or resort developments.” Roland had met Robert Smylie in the mid ‘50s shortly after Smylie had won the first of three successive elections as Governor of Idaho on a ticket of creating a state park system. Despite a great deal of opposition from the state land board and other state fountains of political patronage, Smylie and the Harrimans negotiated for several years (much of it secretly) until the state agreed in 1965 to establish a professional state park system free of political patronage.
All of the Idaho State Parks exist as such because of those negotiations and the Harriman 11,000 acre gift to the state.
In 2010 Idaho Governor C.L. “Butch” Otter attempted to disband the Idaho’s park agency in order to fill a budget hole in his administration. But to do so would mean returning those 11,000 acres to the Harriman estate, according to the stipulations agreed to in 1965. Fortunately, he could not do that. Today Harriman State Park continues to be part of a wildlife refuge for moose, deer, elk, bear, and sandhill cranes, among other wild creatures. Two thirds of the trumpeter swans that winter in the contiguous United States spend the season in Harriman State Park. All of them and the hundreds of thousands of people who annually visit the state parks throughout Idaho appreciate the legacy of Harriman, even if they aren’t conscious of it.
Thanks Averell. Thanks Roland.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 10, 2018 - 10:19am PT
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^^^^ Very nice, Mr Yeti. Life can be so very nuanced.
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Nov 10, 2018 - 11:46am PT
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what i get from yeti's post is that "individuals," making decisions based on that marvelous quality, character ... really do shape the course of history ... and history is huge as to the current set of facts on the ground.
i've been watching this play out since bush vs. gore. one guy holds the door for others as a matter of habit, another walks thru cuz he's no chump.
for this we got neocon adventurism, and climate change denial as policy
~~~~
i'll attempt redemption with a subsequent, on topic post
(edited)
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Nov 10, 2018 - 01:54pm PT
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These ranch pretenders should be stuffed and placed over real ranchers fireplace mantles.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2018 - 05:50pm PT
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“Real ranchers” equals “welfare ranchers.” 94 % of grazing fees on BLM land are paid by “you” the American taxpayer and you are most likely to live in an urban area. Ranchers love to sit around with their weak morning coffee in rural cafes badmouthing city folk, welfare mothers and big government...a nasty bunch of ignorant hypocrites.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Nov 10, 2018 - 06:35pm PT
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@BraveCowboy say: hermit master obviously does not often need to acquire drinking water from the same sources that the cattle are stamping into cowpie muckpits. maybe city folks are just silk-tummied lilywhites, wanting good water left relatively good, but then....
Hmmmm, where does San Fransisco get its water, I wonder?
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