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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 1, 2018 - 03:14pm PT
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This topic was suggested to me by someone I highly respect. They didn't say I should make it a thread, but after some thought I think it balances out the "Why do people choose hate" Thread very nicely. I would not want to leave only hate on the table.
And another question....does love really conquer all? We'll see.
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johntp
Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
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Hah! Lynne, saw this coming.
Me, it makes me feel better to be compassionate. To do something that brings a smile to another is important to me. I try to perform an act of kindness every day. Pollyanic? Maybe.
I'm no saint and have said harsh words to others that I regret. What one does today they have to sleep with tonight.
A kind word to another can change their day.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2018 - 03:23pm PT
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John you have a good point. Going through the grocery store it is so wonderful to give and usually receive a smile. To me a true smile confirms to the other person that you recognize them as a fellow traveler on this crazy planet. And to smile at someone you need to look into their eyes...the mirror of the soul.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2018 - 04:18pm PT
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Kingtut, let's not make this political, please.
I've never liked labels...they are negative. Some of the worst demagogues in history used labels to describe groups and destroy them. People are individuals and we need to get to know the person and again, share ideas.
Years ago and new to this community several in the climbing community shared their ideas with me, it didn't matter I didn't have their knowledge. They have made a difference in my thinking and I thank them for it.
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Trump
climber
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I’m with moose.
We can label it hate or label it love, or label labeling this way or that way, but ultimately I think it’s just human behavior, where belief, and kind-hearted, and mean-spirited, tendencies are just part of the mix. And which is greater than which is kind of just a value system that we lay on top of it, partly prolly for the pro-self psychological boost of admiring our own values, and partly prolly to inspire behaviors that we, with our big brains, think would be “better,” both in ourselves and others.
Me, I’d probably be better served with a different belief system, but this is the one I’ve got. Reality has a way of deciding what is better on its own, regardless of what I think.
Not meaning to be political, at least in a partisan sense, just using it as an example that many of us seem to be focused on, but in the US we have a majority wins system, which has inspired a two party system, and which is prolly partly responsible for inspiring our increasingly tribally partisan politics. The same is true for humans in general - our behaviors with respect to love or hate reflect the environment that we live in, and the behaviors that are advantageous to us in that environment.
Short answer I’d say love inspires us towards pro social behaviors, and pro social behaviors have some upside to them. Wish the opposite weren’t also true. Computing socially advantageous beliefs and behaviors is a big causal force in the genesis of these big brains we find ourselves possessing and using.
The equilibrium between believing what is advantageous vs believing what is true, while maintaining a positive sense of identity, is an extremely challenging dynamic for all of us to navigate. But if what we want is to believe what is true, we might all benefit from a little skepticism about what’s truly driving our own beliefs.
Thanks again for what you do Lynne.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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I believe you do choose Love. Well in reference to relationships. I was 15 years old when it was literally Love at first sight. Saw my, now wife, and it was, that’s the one. We dated and married at 22. Anyone who has been in a relationship has to make a choice, hopefully not to many times, to stay in that relationship....hopefully to stay in love. We made that decision early on, come hell or high water to put the work in to stay together, to work through problems and differences....to stay in Love with each other. EVERYDAY, I ask our Creator to give me the strength to keep working on our Love for each other. Have been with my wife 45 years, 38 of those married.
Even with other relationships, I make a choice to keep working at it and be it a male or female, if I love someone, I make choices to keep that relationship intact, strong and growing.
My 2 cents
Peace
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Why do we chose love?
I don’t know of any power in my life or the lives of others close to me as strong as love.
Some people process loss and adversity in different ways. We go through the stages of grief and loss at different times and to different degrees. Some people choose to or are unable to process their loss. They find it difficult to express emotions, or cannot fathom the benefits of self analysis.
Like many others I have experienced the tragic loss of close loved ones who died at an early age in life. My brother died many years ago at age 25, and just recently my son died at the age of 41. When my brother died it filled me with such anger and guilt that I ran from the pain and dulled it with drugs, alcohol, climbing, meaningless physical relationships, and whatever way I could find.
Many years went by with my heart numbed but in turmoil before I became sober and began growing up emotionally. Finally, just last summer, I took the long delayed pilgrimage to see the place he loved the most, where his heart was fullest, and where he planned to settle but then so tragically died.
Losing my son is a different story. It has set me on another path and a new kind of journey. My mother died at age 70 in 2005, and not long after I began to write, learning to process my grief in a more constructive manner. It was sad, for she had worked so hard to earn her doctorate, spending a lifetime in education, only to have it whisked away by cancer is such a short time. She died one year to the day from her initial diagnosis, brain tumors and stage four lung cancer.
That year that we spent talking on the phone, and the many visits I took to see her before she passed left an indelible impression on me, for we had buried our grudges and finally excepted each other for all our successes and failures. The takeaway was one thing and one thing only. For all the pushing and pulling we had put each other through during our lives there was only one thing left for us to give to each other in the end. What remained between us at that point was pure love.
For me there was an acceptance and deep empathy for a mother who could not see her family and her hopes for them to full fruition. I understood then and there the full weight and finality of death. What remained for me was to hold her hand, and to tell her as she lie gasping for a breath in a coma, that we would all be fine, that the family would be fine, that it would be OK for her to go when she was ready.
This was the takeaway, the only thing that remains of our lives in the end, if we choose to acknowledge it is love. When my boy died just two months ago, I propped myself up and steeled myself to be strong and support my family in all their grief. I also went through my own private grief, although I did take counsel from several friends and family who had also been through the loss of a child. Along with the shock of losing him so suddenly, I felt great uselessness and anger, but also a guilt so debilitating it threatened to unhinge me.
About a month after he died I could no longer maintain. After some difficulty at work I was washing up at the garage sink and was in a state of complete exhaustion. I had become so absorbed in work I had completely forgotten all about losing him. Then it hit me. He was gone and he was never coming back. Waves of sorrow encompassed me. I sobbed alone as I washed the tears from my face and into the sink. Later that evening, I resolved to never again focus on any negative aspects of our lives together, and to always remember only the good times, and the love, always the love, which we had between us as a father and a son.
I have recently felt some of the burden lifted from me. I know I will always miss him, and I know we never completely get over the loss of people that we love. But I have been fortunate to have loved deeply, and have experienced great love from my spouse and from my family during this life. And love has been the most powerful gift, and the value of it has been the most difficult lesson to learn for me than any other.
-Tim Sorenson
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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living is giving, as a stupid person's wise bumpersticker said.
love received, seems to me, is the reason we later pay love out. I mean biology and neurochemistry, possibly even an evolutionary and rational self-interest, begat it all in the first, sure, but human giving and learning of love is how it happens these days.
trouble is, this love thing is pretty front-loaded on the enjoyment and backside on the cost. it's pretty f*#kin' worth it, you ask me.
cheers, love
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Aeriq
Social climber
Location: It's a MisterE
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Because the path of happiness.
Because the alternative.
Because it is hard work, and work of the heart is work of self.
Because love is ultimately the best reward of life.
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johntp
Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
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Because love is ultimately the best reward of life.
Kinda what I meant. At the end of each day I sleep a lot better if I have shown kindness to others. Being kind exposes one to being taken advantage of. I've enough miles under my belt than to let that happen. Don't give money to beggars. Don't have a Utopian mindset; there are a lot of bad people out there.
Just my thinking the world spins better when people care about each other.
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Well, I always found it was more fun
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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I keep waiting for J Geils to have his say.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Love is not easy.
Broken heart
knowing I'm to blame.
Resisting lashing out.
Reflecting on what
I did wrong.
Do what I can
to make things right
and move on.
Love transcends through action.
Love is the essence
of humanity
to self and all
others.
Not instinctual but
learned and felt.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Nice move, Lynne.
Cheers.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Gulf Breeze
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Life is very simple, you either look at it as a comedy or a tragedy and since nothing falls into place as expected everyone needs to chill out and remember to laugh and respect each other.
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perswig
climber
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Bushman, sympathies, and thanks for that.
I always enjoy your offerings but will see them in a new light now.
Dale
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Give some love and you’re likely to receive some in return, same with hate...your choice.
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johntp
Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
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Give some love and you’re likely to receive some in return, same with hate...your choice.
Pretty much my thinking. Call it karma or what one wants. One reaps what one sows.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
The Ocean
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Why choose love? Is there here a better choice?
Do you know what love is?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 4, 2018 - 05:17pm PT
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Can you give us your definition of what love is, climbski2? That would be cool and it would be great for anyone else to jump in with their own interpretation. Thanks to those that have already given your thoughts here.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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as far as romantic love goes that is not a choice... It just happens....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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As far as the rest of life, love is a choice. we choose to either help people, ignore them or punish them. I prefer the help option but often life gets in the way so the ignore option gets used more than it should......
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zBrown
Ice climber
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I've been struggling with it for a while
What I'm settling in on is that
love is giving equal or more recognition to the importance of the other person's life
Why choose it?
It feels good
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, lynne.. say, just saw this... i will go take a peek and
see all that you are sharing, here... :)
but, say, as to why do people CHOOSE love...
well, it made me think...
first--
to 'choose' something, well, folks usually need to know about it,
in the first place...
(or, if it is something that they do not 'know about--and thus, can't 'seek' what they don't know of, well:
if there is something similar, (that they ARE seeking) that nearly 'match' this, they have that chance of 'runnning into love' (and loving it enough, to choose it)...
so--
i'm just guessing here, but, i'd say,
people chose love, because they either:
1-- already know what it... and want to...
2-- have only heard about it and want to slowly embrace it...
3-- have been looking for something similar, but, so far,
have not found anything... until they see it in action... and
thus, want to...
4-- have only known too many other hateful things in life,
and, while seeking escapes-or-alternatives, have 'stumbled upon it'
accidentally, reach out for it, and want to...
does this help?
*ps:
teach children to love, from birth-time...
it can and will, become a life-long anchor, in their live,
in so many various ways...
for themselves, and the world around them...
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ecdh
climber
the east
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Because evolution is fueled by diversity and love helps with that.
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Robb
Social climber
Cat Box
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Here's why love is THE choice....
13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
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WBraun
climber
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You can't choose Love because we are part parcel of it to begin with.
You either have it or you've covered your own soul with so much materialism that you've lost sight of your own true self .......
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2018 - 06:52pm PT
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So Tim Sorenson, I am reading your post for the "manyith" time. And the tears are again running down my face. I'm sorry it has taken me so long to respond to your from the heart words.
You are so right on. As you say, "Love is the most powerful gift, and the value of it has been the most difficult lesson to learn for me than any other."
Actually, I think your words are life changing. Love is powerful and it can be the most difficult thing to grasp because we have to put aside bitterness, hate, envy a lot of ugly stuff in order for love to fill us and change us.
Thanks for being you, Tim.
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