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Aeriq
Social climber
Location: It's a MisterE
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 14, 2018 - 05:34pm PT
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In the book "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell proposes that if you practice something for ten thousand hours, you will become an expert at it.
Seems straight-forward right? A slow but assured path to success?
I always wondered:
"But what if you suck at it, and put in the time half-heartedly?"
Are you still gonna be awesome at the end? I thought not - and I just came across this:
https://www.businessinsider.com/expert-rule-10000-hours-not-true-2017-8
Apparently, it's not the amount of time, but the way you practice (combined with natural talent - hello? Of course!).
It kind of casts Gladwell's perspective as a weak-brew solution presented to the masses in the most palpable way.
Have you seen him - does he even lift? ;^)
Anyway, I thought the article presented an interesting possibility about the difference between sterile gym climbing and various other outdoor ways that improve and challenge one and the ways they bring one closer to that place of expertise.
It also begs the question for those of us that have put in 10,000 hours or more climbing:
Did you feel a shift or change in your climbing around that "magical" time, and can you even fukking quantify it to know when?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 14, 2018 - 07:05pm PT
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Ain't no magic number. If you're pushing it, the number of hours might be 1. Or 7. Or 27. Or 2,700.
Don't matter. 27 or 27,000. Whatever. Either you're pushing or you're not.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Oct 14, 2018 - 07:22pm PT
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I think age plays a factor. I peaked at age 30 after 10 years of climbing.
How many other people peaked after 10 years?
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Oct 14, 2018 - 07:23pm PT
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Do you have to do it all in one day or can you brake [sic] it up?
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Robb
Social climber
Cat Box
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Oct 14, 2018 - 07:26pm PT
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The magic number is always ….attitude.
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Dickbob
climber
Westminster Colorado
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Oct 14, 2018 - 07:52pm PT
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I read the book when it first came out. I have no idea how many hours I have put into this game but I did noticed at about the age of fifty I could off the couch anything around 5.10 and in my head be solid almost a hundred percent of the time.
I have never been a naturally good climber per se and It probably did take 10,000 hours, like Gladwell predicts, to become real good at it.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Oct 14, 2018 - 07:58pm PT
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Say 4 hours a day
Every day for how many years?
Do the math
I don't agree with the premise
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Oct 14, 2018 - 08:52pm PT
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It takes at least six years to master a new skill.
Working 8 hour days, 5 days per week.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Oct 14, 2018 - 09:05pm PT
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Kali
That works out to more than10,000
But I'm wondering what you're talking about
What type of skill?
How are you coming up with the numbers?
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
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Oct 14, 2018 - 09:07pm PT
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Funny, I started climbing at 23 after being a gymnast so some basic climbing related fitness was there already. I think I peaked at about 38 and then had a really good period in my 50s too. Unfortunately one's 60s are a whole different ball game.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Oct 14, 2018 - 09:28pm PT
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Excellent questions zB . . . my field of experience is construction, hence the regimented 5 x 8 learning schedule. You will not master the entire building process in 6 years but you may become very proficient in one trade.
It takes at least 10,000 hours to become a journeyman climber.
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bogpetre
Trad climber
boston, ma
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Oct 14, 2018 - 09:40pm PT
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Doesn't gladwell say 10,000 hours or 10 years?
Anyway, I'm sure how you spend that time matters. 10,000 hours at the climbing gym is a lot. It would be hard to do that in less than 7 years (4 hours/day without injuries or blowing your brains out). A similar amount of time invested in outdoor climbing wouldn't contribute nearly the same thing considering how much less time is actually spent climbing (using all four limbs for upward progress) and how much more time is spent with tangential activities that never happen at a gym (approach, anchor building, getting to and from the crag, nursing a hangover, and everything else that makes outdoor climbing less efficient technical training).
I've found tha 10,000hr/10 year rule meaningful in my own life though. It's only when I start approaching that number that I feel like I might have something to teach others and a responsibility of some sort to share that knowledge. It's also around the time when I get bored and look for something else to do. I sure hope it doesn't happen with climbing though. There are far too many gumbies to teach and I've blown way too much money on gear and travel to quit.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 14, 2018 - 09:43pm PT
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Such st00pid sh!t.
Modern people all want to become sterile robots .......
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 14, 2018 - 09:46pm PT
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It takes at least six years to master a new skill.
No data to support that, let alone define ‘master’.
Plenty of chess prodigies who attained officially defined ‘Master’ rating before they were 10.
I suppose some of them started playing by the time they were 4 but quite a few didn’t.
One of our greatest, Yasser Seirawan, grew up in SoCal as a skate boarder. Then his
family moved to Seattle. His Lebanese genes said “Homie ain’t skatin’ in no damn rain!”
He took up chess at about 8 IIRC and I would wager he was a master by 12, at the latest.
I remember the little monster kicking butt in the Last Exit On Brooklyn coffee house. What
made it bad was that he was a really nice kid.
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bogpetre
Ice climber
Boulder, CO
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Oct 14, 2018 - 09:50pm PT
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Plenty of chess prodigies who attained officially defined ‘Master’ rating before they were 10.
Surely exceptions have to be made for infantile learning. Children also learn new languages like it's nothing. Put a kid on a climbing wall at 4 and by 10 s/he'll be better than anybody who started as an adult will ever be (e.g. Ashima Shiraishi).
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onyourleft
climber
So Oregon
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Oct 14, 2018 - 10:48pm PT
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I've put in my 10k hours and I still suck.
But my footwork's better...
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Oct 15, 2018 - 01:05am PT
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I still have a little to go to get to 10,000 hours but when I get there 5.7 is gonna be my bitch
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 15, 2018 - 05:46am PT
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You Will always have an upward limit determined by the mind you have and the body you possess.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Oct 15, 2018 - 06:12am PT
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I was curious, so I did a rough estimate. To do this I included all hours on a day of climbing outdoors (i.e. includes the time spent hiking to and from areas, dressing up with equipment, belaying, relaxing and chatting, laying out crash pads, drinking water, etc.). Obviously, the actual time I spend climbing would be much, much less. However, I think its fair to estimate that when the weather is good, on a regular work week I'm at least 20 hours outdoors "climbing" (see definition above). When the weather gets bad, I might only train in the gym, but I'm not counting gym climbing. On an extended climbing trip, with good weather, I might climb 40 or 50 hours in a week. So it seems 20 hours a week might be a good, low-end estimate for my time spent "climbing" outdoors per week. That gives 20 x 52 x 40 = 41,600 hours. Yikes! How "expert" am I? I suppose I climb pretty "good" for a 61-year-old family man with a day job. I've had a butt-load of fun, anyways. And nearly 42,000 hours climbing outdoors without any major injuries to me or my partners is no small feat. Although I imagine there are any number of people in similar circumstances as mine that climb way harder than I do.
At $25 per hour, 41,600 hours represents more than 1,000,000 dollars. Sounds like a lot, but no way I'd trade my time spent climbing (and whatever "expertise" that might mean) for such a measly sum of money. Today the weather is great and it's a three-day weekend, so see ya later!
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Oct 15, 2018 - 06:21am PT
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10,000 hrs/24 = 416 days.
How long did Henry Barber spend on the rocks (allowing for approaches, sure, why not?) before he got "hot?"
Nowhere near 416 days. So talent/mindset is the real key.
Sincerely,
Yvon Schlubslikeme
donini wins this one AGAIN, being the resident expert.
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