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WyoRockMan
climber
Grizzlyville, WY
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Sep 17, 2018 - 08:33pm PT
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DOC member Philip Bennett ’19 said that the DOC favors more established climbing spots like those in Rumney
light
Condolences Nick.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2018 - 08:38pm PT
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Dartmouth owns the cliff. I am not naming the land owner because it is such a sad story and he was/ is my friend. I thought all along that it was state land leased by Dartmouth for the ski way. Bolting on state land is allowed in NH. There are bolts there dateing back to the eightys and pins much older than that. Dartmouth has a long history of climbing, the area is a popular ice climbing spot, they even have climber specific parking area. I was fairly stunned when the Lyme police contacted me claiming it was town of Lyme property. Turned out it was Dartmouth property all along. I did Dartmouth a huge favor by giving them 25 great climbs. they threw it away for politics. the Spokes person from Dartmouth outing club was a bit clueless and likely never climbed there. 19yrs old and says that the outing club prefers to go to Rumny because it is less impact....
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Sep 17, 2018 - 09:06pm PT
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So sorry to hear about this trad. I have also put over a decade of developing routes. Thankless work specially if your not a 5.14+ climber and sponsored to boot.
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JohnnyG
climber
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Sep 17, 2018 - 09:09pm PT
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I happened to be there when two guys were chopping the last route. Sad moment for a nice spot.
Lots of twist and turns...originally neighbors were stoked, then they were pissed...the town had a plan to leave the bolts, then changed the plan to chop the bolts...people thought the college owned the land, then the town thought they owned the land, then it became clear the college owned the land...LOTS of misinformation in the press and town meetings...some of this an intentional warping of the truth to make climbers look like as#@&%es.
In the end, a few college administrators decided the remove the bolts simply because they were placed without permission. To my knowledge, they had never been to the cliff and certainly had not climbed the routes. They hired a guide from the Gunks to chop the bolts, and he brought along another young climber. The choppers told me they had not climbed the routes.
It's really not appropriate to rip on Dartmouth climbers. Many alums worked super hard to keep the area open. Very hard.
In my opinion, it was rather shallow thinking to remove the bolts. I totally get it. Someone put something on their land without their explicit permission. BUT there a LOTS of examples where climbs and trails are established on private property without permission, and the landowner sees it as ok and lets it go. Even promotes it. This has happened on Dartmouth land. This has happened on land where Dartmouth sends their students on outing club trips (Rumney and Winslow). Even this place had it's older climbing routes written up in a Dartmouth Outing Club guidebook! Even more, this area where the bolts were chopped has had:
 climbing for multiple decades,
climbs put up by Dartmouth students and alums
motivated undergrads loving the new face climbs
regular outing club trips for ice climbing
older climbing routes written up in a Dartmouth Outing Club guidebook
and yearly freshman orientation trips to climb across the street on another landowners property (yep those climbs were established without prior permission)
It was totally reasonable for Tradman to think it was perfectly fine to put up these routes. And everyone who knew about the newer routes totally supported him for years. Sadly, some of them later turned on him.
Tradman - thanks for putting up those routes. You have been a class act throughout the whole ordeal.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2018 - 03:42am PT
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to be fair out of the 250 or so bolts chopped they only completely botched about a dozen of them. Obviously the ones they did not have the skill set to remove. I have been hammered quite a bit by a few people who call themselves climbers about the permission issue. I am and always have been respectfull of climbing closures but had certainly never thought about asking permission to climb at places with established climbing and a marked climbers parking area. For those who call themselves climbers and grill me on asking permission.
How many of your heros asked permission to put up all their first ascents?
Heck, we kept our climbs secret in the beginning for that time honored climbing tradition of not wanting to get scooped. We assumed that Dartmouth outing club was full of 20 year old 7ft tall stick people hardmen and women that were going to steal all the good projects from us weak old people. We had no clue that it was just a bunch of top ropers and gumby sport weinies…
Sad that the guide did not climb the ground up climbs before he chopped them. I suppose with google earth on your phone it is no big deal to find the top of a cliff and rap in with a hammer and chisel. I walked up to the base and climbed up.....
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Sep 18, 2018 - 03:47am PT
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Looks like a new Lyme disease....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2018 - 03:48am PT
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Additionally it would be interesting to know if the chopping was done between the end of march and Aug 1st? I was accused of disturbing the birds which was completely false but brought up repetedly when making the case for bolt removal. It would be ironic if the bolt removal was done in nesting season when coming in from the top might actually have disturbed the birds.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Sep 18, 2018 - 04:38am PT
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Tradman I'm reserving comment on the Holts Ledge issue.
It shows no respect.
I feel strongly that you deserve an apology from the climbing community.
What was done given your hard work - it is beyond insulting,
but it is your circus.
I asked ___ if I had we had ever climbed there.
We are not naming names ?
ok
but The R_ __ _ _hi__me-s climbed there in the late 50s/60s & again with their children, when their son was attending Dartmouth in 1980s.(Ice & Rock)
(I don't know what was deleted? but something went away?)
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Sep 18, 2018 - 05:32am PT
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Well, there's your problem...
They hired a guide from the Gunks to chop the bolts
For the guy with the house an easy 6 iron shot away from the crag, doesn't he know that Staten Island is a day trip away?
Accidents happen, fires can start anywhere
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Roots
Mountain climber
Redmond, Oregon
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Sep 18, 2018 - 08:35am PT
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Sucks, but at least NH is the "Granite State"...so hopefully you can find a new spot. Keep it secret this time....
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nafod
Boulder climber
State college
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Sep 18, 2018 - 08:53am PT
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Sounds like another good climbing spot got loved to death by climbers.
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Trump
climber
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Sep 18, 2018 - 09:04am PT
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That sucks sorry you got burned. Sounds like you put a lot of yourself into that area and I can understand feeling bad with the way it’s worked out.
Sounds like there was a lot of misinformation and miscommunication, resulting in the owner of the property chopping some climbs you had put up without their permission? Other people also have a right to do things their own stupid way, but unfortunately, we also have the right to suffer the consequences of our own mistakes in interacting with them.
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jstan
climber
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Sep 18, 2018 - 10:42am PT
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This thread does no one any good.
I had to get some ten posts into this thread before seeing that the people in Lyme were upset. And then came threats of vandalism. So much spin it makes you dizzy.
Toker:
Deny Eberle, a student at Dartmouth, who climbed the N face of the Matterhorn back in the 60's took it into his head to see if I was an alpine climber. (So much snow and ice falling I could not even see the rock. Cold as a you know what.) I lost interest right there in alpine climbing. I will say this however. These Dartmouth guys can really handle a car. I think it was Gray driving my prized 63 Dodge Dart when he lost control on the ice while headed down hill toward a bridge abutment. He did a controlled drift followed by a bank shot off the snow drift. Went right across a narrow bridge hitting nothing and with no damage. Those guys were some kind of good.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Sep 18, 2018 - 10:43am PT
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At least it's climbing related!
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Sep 18, 2018 - 11:06am PT
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Does the area of law regarding "past practice" apply in this situation?
It might be a case of adverse possession, uphill battle though
https://www.lawyersnh.com/adverse-possession-of-property-under-new-hampshire-law/
In order to acquire title to real estate by adverse possession, “the possessor must show twenty years of adverse, continuous, exclusive and uninterrupted use of the land claimed.” O’Hearne v. McClammer, 163 N.H. 430, 435 (2012). Therefore, in order to constitute adverse possession, the property must be used without the actual owner’s permission, and must be used for twenty continuous years.
Occasional use of the property is not sufficient to constitute adverse possession. Additionally, the use must be open and visible enough that the true owner has (or should have) notice of the adverse possession.
Establishing title via adverse possession is difficult. Twenty years is a substantial period of time, and it is often difficult to prove continuous use. Courts construe evidence of adverse possession strictly. Adverse possession is not possible against government land.
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Todd Eastman
Social climber
Putney, VT
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Sep 18, 2018 - 12:08pm PT
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Lots of folks working off assumptions...
... something like this is inevitable, especially regarding recreational land use.
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jstan
climber
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Sep 18, 2018 - 12:17pm PT
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Did a very small amount of reading on Prescriptive Easements. Five years in California. One link to San Bernardino County vouchsafed that "land owners need to defend themselves." No trespassing signs now make sense to me.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Sep 18, 2018 - 12:41pm PT
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"Therefore, in order to constitute adverse possession, the property must be used without the actual owner’s permission, and must be used for twenty continuous years."
What about in cases where the landowner seems to have given permission?,
which seems to be the case per JohnnyG post:
- climbs put up by Dartmouth students and alums
- motivated undergrads loving the new face climbs
- regular outing club trips for ice climbing
- older climbing routes written up in a Dartmouth Outing Club guidebook
- and yearly freshman orientation trips to climb across the street on another landowners property (yep those climbs were established without prior permission)
What was the year of that Club Guidebook?
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Sep 18, 2018 - 12:44pm PT
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When Nick gets off work he will chime in & correct me . . .
You are all going down a silly rabbit hole.
& it is not my circus I really don't know what happened
from what I;ve read;
The land 'in front' of the Holts was not for sale, then it was.
A "climber" bought it and had a nice house built. Things were fine, at 1st. Then things changed.(grew older, out of climbing?)
Those changes,were brought up again & again.
not limited to, visiting gym-no0bs, trash/TP, noise,
combined with a shift in property values, & the threat
of further decline as the place is great, & would draw crowds,
beyond what the dedicated parking woulds sustain . . .
(The week-end scenes at the Ciffs at Rumney & the Gunks may have been shown for example)
as well as the lack of easy bolted routes, so no fun in his backyard,
**led the person,*
-Trads "friend"- to take steps, make false(-ish) claims . . .
(hyper-liability/ property value concerns?)
use erroneous maps,
tax maps, that were at best, approximations, At worst, wildly incorrect,
To start a drum beat against visitors.
Most old timers never doubted that Holt's Ledges was part of the colleges extended holdings.
Dartmouth climbers & others have climbed there for decades.
now
I hear that a new developer is just moved to town.
He, is a lifer, has experience working with the access fund
(No,Axez,Lawery's R malevolent & distrust fund)
So time will tell.
The place is great for learning Ice Climbing.
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