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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 16, 2018 - 07:15pm PT
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^^^you missed the gear, you never took much on the free climbs you did
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Sep 16, 2018 - 08:33pm PT
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I've got a rack of Totems and some sweet stoppers. When there are plenty-o-cracks I want to use them.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Sep 16, 2018 - 08:36pm PT
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It is better to bolt alongside the splitters in IC, for the safety.
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Sep 16, 2018 - 08:39pm PT
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Many factors merit consideration when deciding where to set up your belay. On the E buttress of El Cap once, we were spudding happily along and a couple of guys from Colorado came firing up from below, it seemed correct to make it easy for them to pass. So I set up an anchor a few feet short of an obvious tree belay, so they could go right past me and use the tree, easy stress free pass, everybody happy.
...but there was more too it than that. I knew from the past the this particular tree spot is really infested with unfriendly ants, so I got to chuckle quietly serenaded by Ouch and Dammit and sounds of slapping. Later, we all bailed together due to the waterfall higher, and once on the ground I had to confess it was equally a sandbag as making the pass easy. They fully saw the humor in it, said they'd have done the same back home if given the chance.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Sep 16, 2018 - 09:01pm PT
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Indian creek is mostly single pitch routes without a top out so rapping/ lowering is unavoidable. But no bolts next to cracks
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Sep 16, 2018 - 09:05pm PT
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not sure earl wiggins or jim dunn or chuck grossman were super keen on 22 m single pitch crag routes with convenience anchors, especially on the often 100 m cliffs of the creek
just imagine if everyone had to actually finish generic crack to the 100+ m top for the trump/vail brand bar and escalator descent.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Sep 16, 2018 - 09:06pm PT
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Thanks, Jim, for starting this conversation.
It makes me sad to see bolts when they aren’t needed. It definitely diminishes the climb, the climbers, the terrain, and the richness of the experience.
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Myles Moser
climber
Lone Pine, Ca
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Sep 16, 2018 - 09:26pm PT
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Yikes!
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Sep 16, 2018 - 11:11pm PT
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Yes Russ but it is just as much about making sure nobody can clip them.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Sep 16, 2018 - 11:26pm PT
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I like rap stations back to the canoe! Long hike out the other way and you still have to swim back to the canoe otherwise! ;)
[no Black Canyon routes were harmed/canoe'd as part of this post.]
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Sep 17, 2018 - 12:10am PT
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You are right Jim, but I'm not sure there is really a way to stop it. The US never evolved a communal climbing culture that might have promoted norms, the way the Brits have kept bolts completely off grit. It seems we are more likely to end up with plaisir climbing model.
In the Gunks, climbers' insistence on convenience rappels back to their packs eventually had environmental consequences in terms of ledge erosion and tree damage. These problems prompted the Preserve to respond with an anchor bolting program that, in a number of cases, failed to take into account the negative consequences of creating two-way traffic on routes and equipping first pitches for top-roping.
In my opinion, the Preserve squandered its unique ability to act as a steward for both the land and the climbing activity on it, taking far too narrow a view of problems with little long-term consideration of how the unintended consequences would play out. And now it is too late and they are stuck with, at best, rearguard actions and worrying about their responsibility to maintain all the anchors they've placed.
But the Preserve, being the landowner and so able to regulate how its land is used, at least had the option to channel climber behavior. There is almost nothing analogous on public lands. And one of the troubles with bolting is the extreme asymmetry of the action. Once the bolts are in, getting them out is a major project, one that lots of climbers don't want to get involved in. So the bolters usually "win."
As for the argument that "you don't have to clip them," I don't buy it. Once the bolts are there the entire environment is changed physically and psychologically. This is true whether you clip them or not, because among other things there is always the knowledge that if you get even a little bit stressed, you always can clip them. And in the case of belay anchors, you also have rappel anchors, and so all the presumably unintended consequences of eliminating the need to finish the climb once you have started it.
Analogous issues have arisen over on Mountain Project, where there is a discussion about a bolted rap route on Stately Pleasure Dome, created because parties incapable of walking off were damaging trees by rappelling. Y'all might be interested; see https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/115175349/rap-stations-at-descent-trees-on-stately-pleasure-dome
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California, now Ireland
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Sep 17, 2018 - 02:57am PT
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What is so difficult of walking off Stately Pleasure Dome. I think it adds to the experience. People rap those routes?
Edit
That was an interesting read on Mountain Project. I like the one suggestion to just cut the trees, hah hah. I just think people should just hurtle themselves off the stone. It would save time, their poor feet, and provide some work for the SAR.
I know I have not participated in this forum lately, but I could not resist that. And Jim is right in my opinion
And that Rotten guy John, he is also right, if you free solo, who needs pro?
Another Edit.
Honestly, people complain about the walk off? Their poor feet? Crap, don't climb then, go to Disneyland instead.
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Sep 17, 2018 - 03:47am PT
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You are wrong Jim. You've build thousands of belays, not hundreds, other than that you are right on.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California, now Ireland
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Sep 17, 2018 - 03:47am PT
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I do not mean to be callous, YOSAR has enough to deal with. I was just being flippant.
But really, walking off of Stately Pleasure? What would some of you people think, to fly into Whitney, or Denali, or Everest?
I just think the mountain and wilderness experience is about honest graft. That is what makes the labour worthwhile.
Not some convenient holiday for happy campers.
Edit
I pulled into Nazareth, was feeling 'bout half past dead
I just need some place where I can lay my head
Hey mister can you tell me where can I find a good belay.
He just grinned and shook my hand, and no was all he said.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Sep 17, 2018 - 04:09am PT
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I don't think the issue is just Stately Pleasure Dome Patrick but just the bolting of anchors in general where they are just not needed.
Jim's right of course, but convenience is today's currency in so many ways.
However regarding rapping STD from the top...I was walking off one time and was walking by a couple of folks setting up what looked like a rap.
"What are you folks doing?" I inquired. "We're setting up a rap to get down."
"Why don't you guys just stand up and walk down, I'm on the decent standing right here and you can just walk all the way down to the road."
It felt so weird to be looking down at those people talking all anchored. I just continued down and they just continued doing what they were doing.
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ECF
Big Wall climber
Ridgway CO
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Sep 17, 2018 - 04:36am PT
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Well, here we are again...
The adventure we experienced when the world was wild, was for us. It shaped us, and our dreams and values. It enriched our lives.
The problem you are having stems from the belief that others would benefit from this same experience. It’s a different time, the thrill of discovery is gone, burried under a hill of guidebooks, travel magazines, and adventure blogs. We know who to blame...
Th sad fact is people getting into climbing today are doing so for different reasons. The commitment level just isn’t there, they are hobbyists.
They aren’t going to buy $5,000 worth of gear to preserve heritage when two lockers and a sling can do a better job.
Down the road, the joke will be on them when all those bolts are 30 years old...
Which is better to preserve, the rock as it exists in this present moment or the lives of people who have decided to get themselves in a predicament?
Either is folly, as neither is permanent.
Lead by example in the light.
Do what must be done in the darkness.
That’s the way great societies have always truly worked. Men of action must sheppard the
weak through their shortsightedness.
I’ll let you borrow my crowbar if you want.
I was on PEMA the other day and ran into some VERY inexperienced climbers. They had one ATC between them and only 8 draws. (Last pitch takes 15). They untied on the ledges, and were self-lowering through the chains, and making a few other mistakes too. It is safe to say the bolts provided both safety and access to two people in it for some fun.
Is it right? Is it wrong? Who are we to judge?
Instead of bolting, we should paint a number in a circle on the rock so the kids know where to belay. Color code the cracks too, red cam in red crack...
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California, now Ireland
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Sep 17, 2018 - 04:49am PT
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I was taught climbing by Smoke Blanchard, Chris Fredericks and John Fischer. They imparted on me, a young guy, that climbing was not a hobby, it was a passion, a love, to respect the wilderness and nature. I am a zoologist, but primarily a writer. That is how I have made my living.
But I respect nature.
I have made an ass of myself at times on this forum, but c'est la vie. If you respect nature, then you will understand where I am coming from.
If you can walk off a climb, it is all the better.
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ECF
Big Wall climber
Ridgway CO
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Sep 17, 2018 - 05:06am PT
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You were taught?
Oh man, that would have saved a lot grief!
But what monster would teach a child to climb? Don’t you know how addictive it is?
Give a climber a bolt, you protect the move, give a climber nutcraft and you protect the world.
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steveA
Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
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Sep 17, 2018 - 05:49am PT
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Jim,
Unfortunately your point of view on this issue is akin to a cry in the wilderness. The majority of "old" climbers were around in the early 70's when the anti-bolting dogma was strong. As a few here have already said, we are in different times.
I got a notice yesterday that a few Utah climbers repeated the 16 pitch route on Raid Peak in the Wind Rivers, which I put in with John Bouchard in 1972. We did not place a bolt but there were many long run-outs, with no gear on some pitches.
Even with a modern rack, these guys were intimidated rating it 5.9R. They commented on finding many bail slings and even a bolt, low on the route.
Hopefully, these wilderness type areas will not suffer the same fate as many of the local cliffs.
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