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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Aug 21, 2018 - 12:51pm PT
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Contractor
I think if you dig into the history of the Native American culture you will probably find that in many ways they were more democratic than we have ever been. In addition it is widely accepted that most of the history that you read in regards to Native Americans is post collapse of their civilization.
They were far from perfect but compared to other civilizations of their time they did much better than average.
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Rattlesnake Arch
Social climber
Home is where we park it
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Aug 21, 2018 - 01:20pm PT
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It seems that native americans may have better managed the lands they lived in than those who followed them, especially wrt the use of fire. However, they were managing the lands for themselves, not for visiting hikers or photographers or rock climbers. In fact they might be inclined to close the area to rock climbing, were they still the stewards of the valley. We all have many complaints about how the Valley is managed, but at the same time we enjoy our right to access.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Aug 21, 2018 - 02:21pm PT
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I agree Mynameismud.
At this point there's no going back- it's complete management of our fuk ups or an astroid strike and start over.
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johntp
Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
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Aug 21, 2018 - 08:05pm PT
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Humans are an odd lot
A line from a country western song I find amusing but true:
"Beer is good, God is great and people are crazy".
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Aug 21, 2018 - 09:13pm PT
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Thanks anti. Interesting. I suppose lightning took care of a lot of it too.
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totalxq
Trad climber
LOS GATOS ca
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Aug 21, 2018 - 10:33pm PT
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The article unfairly blames John Muir for being a man of his times. I do not think there are any accounts of Muir killing Natives; though in that time period( c. 1800s-early 1900s) many Natives that were killed in California as well as in other places around the Country. This is the beginning of the end of Native Americans being killed on purpose by people of the United States. Local, state and federal "programs" would pay people to kill Indians. Like CA governors and U.S presidents. As we know, much of the Native Population had already been killed off by disease from Europeans. Some figure of approximately 90% in North and South America. The smaller percentage of Indians killed not from disease, would today be considered genocide. The article did seem to have many good points contrary to what I said above. When the Spanish came they thought the Indians were nuts for burning the forest down. Many people today would not like to see the valley burn either. The way society dealt with Indians was much different, then today. One cannot blame a couple people for that.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Aug 22, 2018 - 07:50am PT
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Clearly it is now time to burn all of JM's books, tear down any statues or likenesses, and scrub him from the historical record. Anything less amounts to a complete and total endorsement of racism, rape culture, and violence against marginalized peoples everywhere. I'm sure there's some anti-gay/trans/bi/questioning rhetoric SOMEWHERE in JM's writing.
HE MUST BE EXPUNGED!
BAd
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Rattlesnake Arch
Social climber
Home is where we park it
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Aug 23, 2018 - 08:59am PT
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In other words, it is high time now, in the twenty-first century, for the exclusionary approach of John Savage and John Muir to be tossed onto the fire.
So given where we are today, what does the author want us to do? Eliminate the NPS and put the native americans back in charge of managing Yosemite, or just eliminate the NPS, or broaden the authority to start "management" fires to include more user groups, or merely feel bad about John Muir (and ourselves)?
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Aug 23, 2018 - 11:30am PT
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Pretty fluffy piece for a scientific journal.
The whole point being forest management by controlled burn.
Leaving the question, what did the nature do before the Indians did their burn cycles?
Muir vs Native Americans: His observations were of the last of a deafeated people. In his enthusiasm, he failed the compassion test to understand why they were so disturbing to him. I would still hold Muir up as an example of a fine naturalist to be emulated and admired. His work did more to help the world than not.
DMT - Rage song totally approriate. Love that one.
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dirtbag
climber
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Aug 23, 2018 - 11:43am PT
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These arguments about Muir’s legacy echo arguments made about Thomas Jefferson’s complex legacy.
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Yinzer
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 23, 2018 - 12:16pm PT
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This might be an unwanted veer in the conversation...
but I thought I would add this to this thread. the title is a little gimmicky to me, as It seems more of a long-form touring segment than anything specifically to do with Muir & his experiences in the range... but you ST heads will love these shots of the Sierra. And Jeremy Jones is a generational supertalent & complete legend.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Also, for other people wondering about early CA mountain-history- I'm sure the ST'ers have also heard about this book but I found it wonderful and a great resource:
https://www.counterpointpress.com/dd-product/early-days-in-the-range-of-light/
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Aug 23, 2018 - 12:59pm PT
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"I care to live only to entice people to look at Nature's loveliness. My own special self is nothing."
Yinzer, you are right. Great setting for some slidin' and glidin'.
Too bad about the Yeti logo, though. That sucked.
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Bale
Mountain climber
UT
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Aug 23, 2018 - 01:27pm PT
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“You might blame old John, but you need to forgive as well.” Well said Mouse.
Nice “Rage” pull DMT!
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