Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
bradL
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe, NV
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 16, 2018 - 07:00am PT
|
Observations:
1. A lot of hard alpinists that I've personally known or interacted with are dead. andre-leclerc johnson steck dempster puryear kellogg copp dash... not meant to be complete, this is just what I see sitting over here.
2. Interest is fading (maybe)? To take an example, the black diamond website currently has two pictures of people climbing plastic, a picture of bouldering shoes, and one picture of a cam placed in sandstone. All the money is in gym climbing and bouldering these days.
WTF? Thoughts? Comments? Inflammatory remarks?
|
|
Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
|
|
Aug 16, 2018 - 07:11am PT
|
hardly
|
|
micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
|
|
Aug 16, 2018 - 07:16am PT
|
Man will always be drawn to the hard alpine realm. It calls to us.
"Per capita" of participants I would think bouldering, plastic, sport climbing etc will continue to grow while real deal alpinism may even shrink.....simply based on "access" and the way climbers start climbing these days. Its way easier and more likely for a kid these days to start in a gym and stick to that type of pursuit.
Back in the day, your first time "climbing" was actually climbing in the mountains, or on a rock at the bare minimum.
What thrilled me and blew my mind the first few times was the crunch of snow under my boots/crampons, the sun rising over a glacier, the feeling of warm granite handjam actually supporting me weight....snacks on a summit....that kind of thing. It had nothing to do with the athletic movement, which is what indoor climbers are drawn to initially.
Those things that first drew me to the sport are what keeps me in the mountains and why I will always climb in the mountains. The gym absolutely bores me, though I go to stay strong and hang with friends.
Hard alpinism is also a good way to die. So you have that part too.
Basically, I'm always trying to get young climbers into the mountains for all the reasons we all love the high and wild. But yeah, I can see an overall decline in numbers but there will always be hardcore bros and lasses out there carrying the torch!
|
|
EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
|
|
Aug 16, 2018 - 07:16am PT
|
Here's a recent example of hard alpinism.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
A group just climbed most of Latok I's north ridge.
There will always be a few on this planet, driven to push themselves, in those wild, inhospitable places.
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
Aug 16, 2018 - 08:11am PT
|
Climbers practicing hard alpinism have always been a small fraction of the climbing population. Now that new explosively-growing genres have been added, hard alpinists are destined to become an even smaller fraction of the total population, and so are decreasing in that sense, even if their numbers are increasing, albeit more slowly than the total population.
Given these trends, I would expect the number and quality of hard alpine ascents to increase, not decrease, so no, the practice of hard alpinism is not going to end.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
Aug 16, 2018 - 08:38am PT
|
Nah.
I would say, however, the trend in climbing for a person to remove all barriers of the past and find full personal and human potential - the limits of which appear to be plateauing somewhat in bouldering and sport [not unlike the 4 minute mile or 2 hr marathon] - this process hasn't gone as smoothly in the alpine environment. Alpine climbing is technically and physically far easier [fact] - but because of conditions, far more dangerous.
IMO, many people therefore see it as a bullsh!t game to play - the process of finding their own potential hindered by so many external factors, including death.
|
|
Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
|
|
Aug 16, 2018 - 08:58am PT
|
I'm not saying yes or no. I am saying that once upon a time . .
Goldline and Chrome Molly. or before that, Manila ropes & soft Iron, those times, for decades. Those times were when the words -will it be abandoned?-
were under serious consideration.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Now, I dont think it is in decline at all, given . . .
modern technology. . .light weight gear & clothing, food Footwear the list goes on. . . O
helicopters for both re-supply going in and rescues. . .
so maybe?
The true "hard" of Alpinism , whatever that is
is relegated to places that are not on the map,
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
Aug 16, 2018 - 09:03am PT
|
Alpine climbing is technically and physically far easier [fact]
Hmm. I guess this is true if you adopt a suitably narrow definition of "technically," but it seems to me like saying ultramarathons are technically easier than the 100 meter dash (because at no moment is the ultramarathoner running anywhere near as fast as the sprinter).
IMO, many people therefore see it as a bullsh!t game to play - the process of finding their own potential hindered by so many external factors, including death
Well, there never has been a large proportion if alpine climbers, and no doubt the very large range of required skills plus the objective dangers have kept the group small---nothing new about that. As for "finding their own potential," JLP may have pre-defined this in the context of the aspirations of sport climbers, but I can't see any reason why the search for personal potential can't occur with the same vigor and intensity in the alpine context.
What is unquestionably different about alpine climbing is the high degree of uncertainty associated with it. Even if the dangers were not more substantial, my guess is that genres with a surer path to achievement would predominate.
|
|
norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
|
|
Aug 16, 2018 - 09:04am PT
|
There are many more alpinists out there climbing hard that nobody ever hears about.
It’s definately not dying out.
Just not quite the mass marketing appeal of rock climbing in more media accessed locations.
|
|
Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
|
|
Aug 16, 2018 - 09:32am PT
|
Think of all the sit starts to alpine testpieces that haven't been done yet.
|
|
micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
|
|
Aug 16, 2018 - 09:35am PT
|
vs.
Which one seems more appealing to you?
|
|
mike m
Trad climber
black hills
|
|
Aug 16, 2018 - 09:39am PT
|
^^^^While the upper is appealing the lower would be much more unforgettable.
|
|
micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
|
|
Aug 16, 2018 - 09:45am PT
|
Andre-leclerc, Johnson, Steck, Dempster Puryear, Kellogg, Copp, Dash,
Adding Stump, Ueli Steck, McNeill, Nott, Cheesemond and so many more that were among the best in the game. Always a sad and humbling list to think on.
|
|
Scole
Trad climber
Zapopan
|
|
Aug 16, 2018 - 09:46am PT
|
I don't believe alpinism will ever die completely A very small segment of the climbing population will continue to pursue ever harder objectives in the alpine realm, while the majority of "climbers" will continue to pull on plastic or sport crags. I think this is mostly a good thing
Hard alpine climbing has never been a mainstream activity, but some of us will always be drawn to the mountains. Even though many of us old guys started in the mountains, very few ever pursued the super alpine, for the reasons listed up-thread, in the first place.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
Aug 16, 2018 - 09:47am PT
|
I can't see any reason why the search for personal potential can't occur with the same vigor and intensity in the alpine context.
Sure - but what truly defines personal achievement? Competition. What you did has to be truly difficult and proven so by attempted repeats. Otherwise, you're kind of a punter off on your own - everyone's a winner.
The increased complexity of alpine climbing has allowed for people to get away with an illusion of difficulty. Solving a logistical puzzle on a problem few care about doesn't make you athletically gifted. However, every year that "slop" gets exposed and the bar is raised.
Thing is - and a lot of really good climbers have found this - the risk goes through the roof before you can really apply the limits of the individual elements - rock and ice climbing, overall athletic fitness, competence on varied terrain, etc.
Many guys who have lead the sport in these components have headed into the high alpine and said, basically, "fuk this" to both the lack of comparable difficulty and the increased risk - Croft and Haston both had remarkably short stints in the Himalaya, for example. So many others have ended up dead.
|
|
Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
|
|
Aug 16, 2018 - 09:59am PT
|
That 8,000 foot long 5.11 Croft and Anker simuled on Spansarr Brakk in 98 is still unrepeated, right?
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
Aug 16, 2018 - 01:28pm PT
|
Russian Roulette has proven its appeal ad nauseum, n’est ce pas?
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
Aug 16, 2018 - 01:34pm PT
|
^^^^While the upper is appealing the lower would be much more unforgettable.
I'm not so sure about that. The upper is much less likely to cause PTSD induced amnesia.
|
|
Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
Aug 16, 2018 - 02:05pm PT
|
^^ But more likely to cause STD.
Sure - but what truly defines personal achievement? Competition.
I would disagree. So it goes.
|
|
Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
|
|
Aug 16, 2018 - 02:33pm PT
|
^^^^While the upper is appealing the lower would be much more unforgettable. I'm not so sure about that. The upper is much less likely to cause PTSD induced amnesia. I don't know, if my wife found out about the top versus the bottom the top would be far more life threatening.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|