Trump is not good for the U.S. economy.

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John M

climber
Aug 14, 2018 - 05:35pm PT
While certain commodity prises have risen due to tariffs, others have fallen dramatically and will benefit even the poorest of American consumers. The prices of beef, chicken and many grains have fallen and will get to the consumers. In my own business, I am already paying less for the raw ingredients used in the pizzas and pasta.

this is a classic example of what the conservatives claim that they hate. The government taking a major role in deciding who wins and who loses.

Life is sure funny these days.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Aug 14, 2018 - 05:39pm PT
Yes Canadien.

Trouble is ,we Americans,do not have enough softwood ,really, we Need Canada’s lumber.

We do not have enough lumber to sustain the growth we want.
PIZZAMAN

Trad climber
Van Nuys, Ca.
Aug 14, 2018 - 05:44pm PT
I have to stand with Trump on this one, many countries imposed outrageous tariffs on US made goods and this was a situation which was not sustainable. As per Chinese theft of intellectual property, well there should be no debate at all on that issue.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Aug 14, 2018 - 05:47pm PT
That is ok ,tariffs on lumber , not so much.
I thought I may have articulated the differences.

It is not about me.
PIZZAMAN

Trad climber
Van Nuys, Ca.
Aug 14, 2018 - 05:50pm PT
Wilbeer,

I would think with all of the downed timber in fire ravaged California, prices would come down????
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Aug 14, 2018 - 05:56pm PT
Maybe ,regionally.
John M

climber
Aug 14, 2018 - 06:01pm PT
the pine bark beetle made a lot of the wood unusable. Plus there aren't very many mills left in California. So to process what glut there was, meant shipping it a long way. Not always cost effective.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Aug 14, 2018 - 06:27pm PT
Not a short term fix but given the fire danger as well as the cost of managing forest lands it makes sense to relax logging standards and partner with commercial loggers to create sustainable and less flammable forests and to provide more American lumber to the market.

This is especially true if they are protected from cheaper imports. Ramping that new (or rejuvenated) supply chain up take time of course and it will not provide cost reduction. In otherwords unless the tariffs are rescinded those higher prices on lumber are here to stay.

DMT
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Aug 14, 2018 - 06:29pm PT
I believe so,adjustments will happen.

I am just hoping the bottom doesn’t fall out.

The worst thing about this is it can only be attributed to one person.
WBraun

climber
Aug 14, 2018 - 06:33pm PT
At the rate you gross materialists are going you'll all soon be living in mud huts and won't be able to use trees anymore ......
Jody

climber
Occupied Territory
Aug 14, 2018 - 06:34pm PT
Whatever you say, jody. I'd say your pre-demonstrated ignorance in fields such as evolution

Yeah, believing life was Created takes way more ignorance than believing it just sort of popped into existence out of nothing and mutated it's way to what we have now. (Recognize the sarcasm?)
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Aug 14, 2018 - 06:39pm PT
Werner,you do realize that trees are renewable and can meet demand with proper management.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Aug 14, 2018 - 06:48pm PT
I feel for you American builders. It's basic business to pass on any cost increases to the consumer.

Tariffs cost the producer access to the market and create unaffordable products the buyer wants.

Trump really is Communist in nature by pretending to defend the little guy while demanding state (national) ownership over the means of production in an international economy.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Aug 14, 2018 - 06:50pm PT
Werner is not making commentary on the sustainability of timber.

He moonlights here as a life coach to the gross materialist, the insane and the stoopid American by reinforcement of our self loathing.



wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Aug 14, 2018 - 06:59pm PT
I have no problem with Werner,at all .....lol.

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2018 - 07:02pm PT
DMT! You are sounding like a "short-term" fix conservative:

Not a short term fix but given the fire danger as well as the cost of managing forest lands it makes sense to relax logging standards and partner with commercial loggers to create sustainable and less flammable forests and to provide more American lumber to the market.

I sigh for those who spew the rancher & logger propaganda that grazing & logging prevents fire. That's not been proved true, but here's an opinion piece from High Country News, which notes that logging has also tanked in states like Maine, with little public land & few restrictions on logging.

Why is logging dying? Blame the market.

Environmental regulations and endangered species protections are not at fault for Western logging’s decline.

George Wuerthner
OPINION June 15, 2016

Critics of public lands like to say that timber jobs declined and mills closed over the last 20 years because environmental protections such as the Endangered Species Act and other laws made the cost of logging skyrocket. This complaint is repeated so often it is usually stated as unqualified truth.

If you believe the rhetoric, the way federal lands are managed has been the problem. If only there were more private owners of the land, local economies would prosper, and there would be stable, long-term stewardship.
If only that were true. But if you compare the mostly private wood-products industry in the state of Maine to the West’s experiences on public land, you find that environmental regulations had little to do with the demise of logging.

Ninety percent of Maine is forested, and more than 93 percent of the state’s land is privately owned, mostly by large timber companies that sell trees to the wood- products industry. If private lands lead to prosperity and healthy landscapes, Maine should be the poster child for the country. And unlike the West, Maine, imposes minimal regulations on private landowners. There are also almost no listed endangered species in Maine to harry the timber industry.

Yet today, the forest-products industry in Maine is a shadow of its former self. In 1980, there were 25 pulp and paper mills in the state. Today, two-thirds of those mills are gone. Since 1990, the state has lost 13,000 of its approximately 17,000 paper-industry jobs, including more than 2,300 in the past five years.

The decline continues. Associated wood products companies in Maine have also seen a decline – everything from wood furniture, wood flooring and clothespin producers have closed up shop.

The decline in both employment and production in Maine was caused by the same forces that drastically cut forest industry jobs in the West: foreign competition, which brought in cheaper wood products, technological advances and new automation that allowed computers instead of people to run machinery. High energy prices and labor costs also played a role as plastic and steel moved in to replace wood.

Think about the brightly colored plastic Adirondack chairs for sale at Home Depot now replacing the wooden chairs on which they are modeled. Instead of wood rafters, steel-beam has replaced two-by-fours in some construction, and so forth. The decline in newspapers and print materials has also dramatically altered demand for pulp production. All of these factors are affecting the West’s wood industry as much as they affect Maine.

These days, most of the new sawmills and pulp mills built in the United States are in the South. Trees grow faster there, and unlike the Western United States, the can reach harvestable age in a decade or two. To the timber industry, the longer you have to wait to cut trees, the higher the risk. Your trees might die in a forest fire, a beetle outbreak or some other natural event. So locating your mills in places where you can grow a tree to merchantable size quickly is a smart business practice.

Furthermore, most of the Southern timberlands are flat and accessible year-round. In the steep mountains of the West, road construction costs are far greater, and snow limits seasonal access.

So that’s the picture: The decline of the Western wood products industry – like that in Maine – occurred because of economic realities that favor other regions of the globe. Blaming environmentalists, endangered species protection, or environmental regulations is easy. But blame fails to explain a changing world, or help us understand its nuances.

Unlike Maine, the West has an alternative. Its abundant public lands – in particular its wilderness areas, national parks and monuments – provides the foundation for another future for the region. While not all the changes that come with the “new” economy are welcome – take sprawl and increased impacts from recreational users – they can be managed if we make intelligent choices.

https://www.hcn.org/articles/why-is-logging-dying-blame-the-market
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 14, 2018 - 07:10pm PT
It doesn't require much sophistication to see thru the pro logging BS propaganda...But go ahead and keep trying to blame the spotted owl...
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Aug 14, 2018 - 07:23pm PT
Good discussion.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Aug 14, 2018 - 07:28pm PT
I just wish all Americans would stop all the picking on him and see all the good things that President Trump has done.
John M

climber
Aug 14, 2018 - 07:29pm PT
Not a short term fix but given the fire danger as well as the cost of managing forest lands it makes sense to relax logging standards and partner with commercial loggers to create sustainable and less flammable forests and to provide more American lumber to the market.

This is especially true if they are protected from cheaper imports. Ramping that new (or rejuvenated) supply chain up take time of course and it will not provide cost reduction. In otherwords unless the tariffs are rescinded those higher prices on lumber are here to stay.

Timid pointed out that much of California is already systematically logged. The woodlands that aren't logged don't have enough marketable timber. Such as around Redding.

We are going to have to get more aggressive with our management tactics. Thinning, controlled burns, etc.. Thats going to require separating the forest services fire fighting budget, from its management budget.
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