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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 19, 2018 - 07:45am PT
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Bottom line....we are all free to choose what we bring into the backcountry. For me, part of the allure of solo trips into the wild is the absence of modern contrivances. When I enter truly wild places I am in a world largely unchanged by the heavy hand of mankind. To fully embrace the feeling of wildness I need to be as free of modern technology as I can possibly be.
Once, several years ago I found myself alone in true Patagonia wilderness a day or more from where anyone had ever been. I was alone and nearly out of food....waiding waist deep down a clear stream with a sandy bottom I saw a trout leap out of the water a few feet in front of me and catch a fly. Moments later I heard the unmistakeable hammering of a Magellanic Woodpecker and looked up to see the flaming red head of a male at work on a tree above me.
I didn’t feel alone or concerned about the situation I had put myself in. I felt truly free....a feeling I could never have in the hubbub and cacophony of civilization.
Freedom is the key....free to choose, free to feel.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 19, 2018 - 07:51am PT
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Waders...you have to be kidding.
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John Mac
Trad climber
Breckenridge, CO
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Jun 19, 2018 - 11:18am PT
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My wife is hiking the CDT trail by herself right now and we decided to purchase a garmin inreach device more so I can track her at home and co-ordinate meet up's and food drops.
It's come in handy a couple of times when the weather has delayed her and more recently the forest closures around Silverton caused a reroute. The two way text messaging is nice as well but the monthly fee kind of sucks... Fortunately, there is only a 30 day commitment not like spot devices.
Up until now I've never considered owning one, but for this sort of use I can see it's value.
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Jun 19, 2018 - 03:20pm PT
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ECF wrote: "If no one calls for a rescue, why would anyone come looking for me?
You say to go join a military group and kill people and I’m the adolescent?
I just want to go on a hike and not harm anyone.
If personal responsibility is too difficult a concept for you to grasp, we have no basis for discussion."
and
"So the question remains, do PLBs save the competent as much as they embolden the incompetent? All the stories I have read indicate a foolish reliance on this technology to remedy poor decision making and improper planning. Of course I am sure there are exceptions, but those are not the ones that make the news. Families filing lawsuits because beacons were not responded to quickly enough for their liking have dominated the recent news cycle regarding these devices."
interesting stuff... has made me think about my own personal decision making and opinions and while [surprise] the above hasn't changed them: it has helped me put words to my sense about this.
in case ECF/some of you might find further minutiae of interest, i'm on vacay, and i can feel a mini essay coming on... :) plus i'm all rested up after getting back a couple days ago from some of the most adventurous solo "hiking" i've ever done... :)
'cause here's the ironic thing ECF: i don't think your and my positions are really that far apart. and part of that reason is that your situation does sound like the exception to the non-plb user rule and i [arguably] suspect my stance is to at least a small degree towards the nearer to you end of the plb using spectrum... so here we go:
you say no one would come and look for you? fair enough. i'll take your word.
that said, while i don't have the stats to back it up, i'd bet dollars to donuts that 95% of north americans would have a search party after them within 48 hrs of heading out and/or their planned return time, unless said person specifically tried to get-gone [ie. they purposely left their vehicle in another spot or hid it; they had only used cash for the last bit or they were currently not employed, etc.]. in the vast majority of instances, as Fritz says, either your employer, your employees, your suppliers, your neighbors, your family, your friends, the folks who notice your car sitting for a couple nights, etc and etc are going to call someone when you don't turn up and there is going to be a search party sent out for you... you may wish this wasn't the case for most of society and it may not be the case for you, but to deny that this isn't the reality for the vast majority of north americans is to be, imo, delusional.
now, i'm going to avoid the conversation of whether this makes us a nanny state or whether it means that we are interconnected/"rich" enough as a society to give a shIt about each other enough to go looking for each other - even if a person hasn't asked to be looked for [or even if it's just so those credit card bills get paid - ha!]. at the end of the day the reality is, even if we call it a "nanny state", for at least 95%, or likely even higher, i believe that your so-called "nanny state" does exist in north america no matter where a person goes to get amongst it.
now. the flip side is i've realized that there is a bit of a failure in the language i used in my previous posts: i don't consider a spot [tm], or its copycats, a plb...
relative to actual plbs: they are toys. fun toys, that are even useful in certain situations... but as plbs? toys.
hahaha...
here is the reason why:
1. a. goto the spot website and try to find what the transmission power that their messages are sent with... not as easy as i would think it should be... as far as i could see it wasn't up front and centre in the specs and i finally had to go off site to third party site to find that the transmission power for a gen 3 spot is 0.4 watts
b. now goto acr resqlink and right under specs [where it should be] it shows that their transmission is 5 watts.
c. if the goal is to create a personal locator beacon, the goal should be to get that message to where it needs to go. why does spot sell a product that sends messages at less than 10% of the power of its competitors through to a private network? for that sweet, sweet subscription of course.
2. ergo: spots, phones, etc are first and foremost communication devices, in my book. not plbs. and as plbs they are toy versions of the genre.
maybe that's a fine distinction, but here is why i think it's relevant.
i'm with those who would not go on a major trip with someone who was going to bring a two way messaging spot or phone [and were planning to use the latter as more than a clock and camera - ha!] in those types of serious adventures, i'm not interested in getting messages in and folks who think that they need to, for example, send a daily message out to their boy/girlfriend and believe that the spot is not going to potentially create more problems than it avoids in that situation, is not the type of person i want to go seriously adventureneering with... maybe road side shIt, but if we're seriously getting amongst it, then that attitude is, as a rule, one that could get all of us killed.
so. now that, that little rant is done... ha! why do i think our positions are pretty close? if on a scale of adventure of 1 to 10 where 10 is being a medic or embedded freelance journalist with the peshmerga [see: no killing req'd!] and 1 is being carried on a litter by four folks while your doctor, makeup artist, chef, and social media liaison trail behind, then i'd call what you are doing say maybe, in general, around a 7 or an 8.
and i'd say that doing the same thing as what you're doing, while in north america, except while carrying a plb [an actual one way plb: not a two way toy] is probably around a 6 or 7.
why so high?
plbs don't get you rescued when you fall off that cliff and end up dead or unconscious.
they are mechanical devices and due to either mountainous terrain, failure, etc, the message can fail to get through.
they can be damaged.
and even if all of the above works and the message gets through it's still possible one may not be found soon enough due to complicated terrain, weather, etc.
ie. anybody who thinks a plb is a get out of jail free card, doesn't understand their limitations, and how infrequently they are actually of life and death use.
ie.ie. if, for arguments sake say roughly 95% of folks without plbs are going to have a search party after them in 48- 72 hrs, i'd bet, even if we're being generous and say 95% of plb carrying solo folks who are fUcked but stay conscious and are able to get a rescue to them in 2-8 hrs, the difference between life and death in the two populations per activity use hour is not going to be nearly as significant as most emotionally think.
alright! so what in the fUck, imo, is the point of carrying an actual plb, then?
same reason planes and boats carry actual plbs: in that relatively very small case that someone is actually, seriously fUcked and incapable of self-rescue, their family and friends don't have to wonder if more could have been done and if less sar time/risk/money could have been spent if they could have gotten a signal out.
i have no issue with, either for myself or others, going out and getting amongst it in a way that may or may not willfully risk the chances of significantly decreasing ones life span.
flip side is for me personally i don't want to have to unnecessarily burden my family, society with the thought of me sitting out for days and weeks on end incapacitated but conscious, while the folks who care about me worry/search for me, if there was an easy way to have avoided it.
spots, phones, etc for me? with regards to serious adventureneering? a bridge too far.
actual plbs? weigh almost nothing, and for me personally they don't do much except give fam/friends more peace of mind. i know the chances that me not coming back change very little due to my carrying a plb.
now are there, imo, good reasons not to use a plb? sure, the arguments are embedded above. they aren't weightless, they do cost money, for many they do create a delusional psychological/emotional outlook, etc.
so my point is not that everyone should use a plb.
i respect people's choices regarding them.
and i do think that spots and other toy "plbs" create more damage for society as a whole, than they avoid. [though even they do have their place]
my point is that, imo, if a person thinks they're more manly cause they don't use an actual plb and they are adventureneering in north america then they a. don't realize what is or is not manliness, and/or they b. don't understand how interconnected we all are, in north america, at this point in our history [as we type to each other, with no delay, across water and land...] and so c. they're probably compensating for something and panties might make for a better fit...
hahaha.
seriously, i do appreciate the convo: so, peace...
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 19, 2018 - 03:51pm PT
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nice post nah000. One detail on the power output. Spot operates at 1.6gHz while the ACR is transmitting at 406mHz (5w) and 121.5 mHz (50mw). 406 is to the satellites, 121.5 is to aircraft. Lower power is needed for higher frequencies. Not sure which propagates better but I have heard stories of Spot not working.
Does carrying a PLB change the decision making process? I have carried an ACR for about 3 years. I carry it because I solo a lot. My son depends on me, and my few friends worry about me. I can honesty say that I rarely think about it. Never enters into my decision process. Who wants to get rescued? there is generally a degree of stigma/humiliation attached to a rescue. The goal of my decision making process is to not call for a rescue.
One time I remember thinking about it was when I took my day pack off and jumped over a 20 foot deep chasm to tag the summit block on a rarely climbed peak. I realized that the jump back was onto an uninviting fairly narrow sloped ledge. The fall would not have been fatal and as I contemplated it I joked to myself self that I do have a beacon. Then it dawned on me that the beacon was in my pack on the other side and if I fell I would not have access to it. I ended up finding a 5.easy climb down. Beacon is worthless once you are separated.
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 20, 2018 - 12:53pm PT
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www.sunrunnersw.com
Amboy Crater claims more lives: One dead, one missing
2018-06-20 | By Steve Brown
A cross-country road trip has gone terribly wrong for a couple from Virginia. Susan, 65, and William Schmeirer, 64, left their home in Williamsburg on May 27, and were expected to arrive in Palm Springs on or around June 2. They never arrived.
Instead, on June 13, Bureau of Land Management rangers notified the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department that a vehicle had been parked at the Amboy Crater trailhead parking lot for approximately 10 days and the car appeared to be abandoned. BLM rangers conducted a preliminary investigation and requested the assistance of the Sheriff's Department. The Sheriff's aviation unit 40K3 immediately responded and conducted an extensive aerial search, according to the Sheriff's Department, but did not locate the Schmeirers.
On June 16, the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department Morongo Basin Station coordinated and conducted an extensive search of the area around Amboy Crater utilizing deputies, a helicopter, Morongo Basin Search and Rescue volunteers, and a trained search dog. The search located human remains of a deceased male matching the description of William Schmeirer. Positive identification of the body is pending from the Coroner's Division. Cause of death of the male is unknown pending an autopsy.
The whereabouts of Susan Schmeirer is unknown at this time. The Sheriff's Department is continuing its search and investigation. Morongo Basin SAR volunteers are scheduled to conduct another major search operation of the Amboy Crater area this weekend.
The Sheriff's Department noted it appreciates the overwhelming support local desert community members have provided in recent similar situations, but would like to remind the public of the dangers inherent in conducting their own searches. With temperatures climbing to 110 degrees in the Amboy area this week, daytime temperatures will be extremely high. The terrain around Amboy Crater, with its dark lava rock ground cover increases the temperatures, and there is little to no cell phone service in the area.
The Schmeirer tragedy follows the deaths of Kathie Barber and her husband Gen Miake of Yorba Linda while hiking near Amboy Crater last August.
https://www.sunrunnersw.com/single-post/2017/08/13/Tragedy-in-Amboy
Anyone with information related to the investigation is asked to contact the San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department Morongo Basin Station at (760)366-4175.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 20, 2018 - 04:15pm PT
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Personal choices still reign supreme thanks to the still “mostly” free society we live in. Internet forum discussion can elucidate the pros and cons of doing this or that but, in the end, it’s still our choice.....and that is a good thing.
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Jun 22, 2018 - 08:04am PT
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Jon Beck: thanks for the important clarification re transmission wattage that i, embarrassingly, had missed in the past. while my conclusion is still correct, because it was for the wrong reasons, it was only due to luck, rather than being due to a logical line of reasoning.
for those looking for a good breakdown of the pros and cons to the different frequencies m.o.’s i found this. basically the short is plbs “likely” work better in deep forests and canyons...
and meant to thank donini for his post that ended with this: “I didn’t feel alone or concerned about the situation I had put myself in. I felt truly free....a feeling I could never have in the hubbub and cacophony of civilization.”
the post as a whole contained some really beautiful and elucidating stuff. thanks.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jun 22, 2018 - 06:32pm PT
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When Joe Darrow collapsed on a Sierra Club trip to climb El Picacho del Diablo, they tried to resuscitate him. When that failed, they buried him on the mountain. Half turned around, half continued on to the peak.
Darrow is still up there. I'd be OK if that turns out to be my fate.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Jun 22, 2018 - 10:48pm PT
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solo hiking does require taking a brain along....
i think of that celebrated idiot in Utah that cut his arm off... if he had let people know where he was going, and when he would be out, he would be fine... with two hands.
i think solo is the best way to experience the tranquility and peace of nature, yes there is great friendship and trust built in climbing partnerships... but walking alone, is a whole different deal. Nothing like it.
i always have walked alone, at 5 years i would go in the back yard with flashlight and "check my ranch.'
At 9, in the Sierra my parents they were already letting me venture up the trail on my own regularly. Above Whitney Portal I met a Giant man on the trail with a staff nearly as tall as he was, clink clink i heard him coming so i stopped and waited.. Norman Clyde, of course by himself.. he looked at me curiously gazing for who i might be with.. "oh sir i am just on a hike by myself" he smiled with glee as our eyes met, maybe he was thinking something like this little whippersnapper gets it. and the he strode down the trail.
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Tui
Boulder climber
SD
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Jun 27, 2018 - 08:56pm PT
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Curious if anyone here has ever hiked Jail Canyon (the prominent east west running one immediately south of Tuber Canyon) to Telescope Peak.
"Telescope has got to rank up there with the Grand Canyon's Rim-to-Rim-to-Rim and the Trans-Zion as possibly the hardest and most memorable single-day suffer-fests in the West."
Did anybody send you any info on Jail Canyon (or any other route down besides Tuber)? Tuber is kind of boring... although there is water.
Rim to Rim to Rim is pretty easy since you never really have to carry over a liter of water. The concrete and sand on the Trans Zion make it a long day. On Telescope, I camped at Hanaupah Spring so I didn't do it in a day since I was going to Whitney... but the last quarter mile or so were brutal where I ended up. Cactus to Clouds is a nice day as well.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Jun 28, 2018 - 09:06am PT
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I don't really understand the sort of hate directed at people who chose to have a PLB. I do a lot of solo hiking and have always left route information with my wife as well as a return contact time. At her urging I got an ACR a few years back. It sits in the bottom of my pack with some duct tape on it to make sure there is no accidental stuff happening. I never think about it while out, except to be glad I have it in case I run into someone hurt.
I don't expect to use it, its presence doesn't affect my decision making or change the enjoyment I get from being where I am and alone. It makes my wife feel more comfortable; I feel better knowing (well, hoping) a broken leg or ankle isn't the end of me. I've had my self rescue moments, made it through, wouldn't have triggered it if I'd had it, and am not some sort of lesser being for having it with me.
Do what you want but accept that I can do as I want despite your disapprobation and purity.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Jun 28, 2018 - 10:35am PT
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Hey DMT, I said 'sort of hate'. Probably better words would be 'sneering disdain'.
Rescue buttons are for sissies. I refuse to ever carry one or go with someone who does. We all die eventually, your magic box won’t stop that.
All it does is remove some of the consequences of idiocy, so your Darwin comment makes no sense either as these devices allow people to supplant natural selection. You need a little blue dot to tell you where you are? I do not. How do you know I need a 'blue dot'? I don't own a GPS or use a cellphone for tracking.
You're not really solo if you have a PLB or cell phone... All the stories I have read indicate a foolish reliance on this technology to remedy poor decision making and improper planning.
And thanks to del cross for a comment that sums it up for me:
I disparaged the notion of PLBs for years. I bought one recently. A few extra ounces in the bottom of the pack, probably never used. I'm not interested in being the tough guy in the wilderness. I know it's mostly an illusion of self-sufficiency. I would rather have an option for a rescue if the alternative is to die on a hiking trip. When I climbed in Yosemite I was okay with the notion that YOSAR was there if it came to that.
I'd rather die doing something a lot less pleasant, like vacuuming.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Jun 28, 2018 - 11:05am PT
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How many of you vehement posters grew up or live in a rural (under 7500 residents) area vs how many grew up or live in a suburban or urban area is probably the best litmus test for this thread.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 28, 2018 - 11:47am PT
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Which group prefers to use a locater?
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jun 28, 2018 - 11:57am PT
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Lots of solo time. Alpine, Rivers, Canyons, Walls, Surfing. Grew up in a lot of places, none under 7500 people, but there was always the call of the Wild.
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ManMountain
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jun 28, 2018 - 04:27pm PT
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relative to actual plbs: they are toys. fun toys, that are even useful in certain situations... but as plbs? toys.
here is the reason why:
1. a. goto the spot website and try to find what the transmission power that their messages are sent with... not as easy as i would think it should be... as far as i could see it wasn't up front and centre in the specs and i finally had to go off site to third party site to find that the transmission power for a gen 3 spot is 0.4 watts
b. now goto acr resqlink and right under specs [where it should be] it shows that their transmission is 5 watts.
c. if the goal is to create a personal locator beacon, the goal should be to get that message to where it needs to go. why does spot sell a product that sends messages at less than 10% of the power of its competitors through to a private network? for that sweet, sweet subscription of course.
2. ergo: spots, phones, etc are first and foremost communication devices, in my book. not plbs. and as plbs they are toy versions of the genre."
You might want to do a bit more research; transmit power is a small part of the overall picture. I know little about the SPOT except its reputation of unreliable messaging. So I'll use my Garmin/Delorme Explorer+ series SEND type device vs. a COSPAS/SARSAT PLB for discussion (satellite cites are from 2015 so are a bit out of date).
The Garmin transmits at 1.6 watts, PLBs are mandated to transmit at 5 watts. The Garmin Iridium satellites, 66 of them, are orbiting 500 miles up in a worldwide mesh constellation. PLBs transmit to two types of satellites, 7 GEOSARS in stationary orbit 22,000 miles above the equator and 5 LEOSARs at 600 miles in circumpolar orbits similar to Iridium's.
Ponder these facts. A PLB needs the 5 watt power to hit a GEOS satellite 22,000+ miles away, or a less frequent pass by a LEOS 600+ miles away. Since the GEOS satellites are stationary above the equator, as you travel to higher latitudes they appear closer to your southern horizon, which means if your view to the south is blocked you'll never alert a GEOS satellite because they never move. If you're in a narrow canyon, etc., it might be a while before a LEOS satellite passes over just right to be synchronized with the once every 50 seconds transmission from your PLB. Conversely, the Garmin only needs to hit an Iridium satellite 500+ miles away so 1.6 watts is plenty, and 66 of them is like a bunch of busy bees in the sky transiting your narrow canyon at all sorts of different angles. Conclusion; Garmin's use of the Iridium constellation with over 10 times the moving satellites means a quicker SOS link in difficult terrain. Agreed, with a PLB if you have a line of sight view of a GEOS satellite you'll trigger an SOS on the very first transmission, no need to hang around for a LEOS satellite pass that comes into view. OTOH, with a clear sky view and 66 satellites whizzing overhead the Garmin will probably trigger an SOS immediately too. One gotcha is if you have an older PLB without an onboard GPS and trigger through a GEOS satellite, it cannot determine your location through Doppler shift measurements and must wait for one or two LEOS satellite hits to resolve your position +- a few miles.
Concerning user reliability, the PLB shines. Push the button, they work. They (Class1) are mandated to transmit for 24 hours at -40°F and float (Class 2, 24 hours @ -4°F and sinkable) even after five years of non use. Registration is free. Their design must meet specs established by the Government. The Garmin, um, it's a consumer product which claims it's good to -4°F (unknown transmit time till dead because of a rechargeable battery), has a lot of buttons and a screen that can fail. It requires a pricey annual subscription which if lapsed turns it into a brick.
Concerning utility, the Garmin shines. It's much more than an SOS device. I'll not list all its features, but two way text communication with SAR stands out as a critical SOS benefit. Because it's rechargeable, you can utilize its many features during your trips and fully recharge it before your next trip and it'll hold an SOS charge for 3 years. Activate a PLB and it's toast until you replace the battery $$$. Quite a difference.
Concerning SAR infrastructure, the PLB may be the better bet. Your SOS goes directly to SARSAT, a government controlled robust international consortium of rescue agencies. The Garmin OTOH connects to IERCC, a commercial monitoring outfit that does not do SAR operations, they (hopefully) merely forward your activation to SARSAT or other agencies. There's been a few incidents in the press where they f*#ked up and didn't do so.
The bottom line. A PLB once purchased is free of costs, the Garmin is double the cost for the device and then incurs an annual several hundred dollar subscription cost. Why? Garmin has to pay Iridium to ride on their satellites because users are constantly tracking and sending messages through Iridium, and Garmin also pays IERCC for SOS handling.
I'm not saying either is a better SOS device, just that they are quite different in capabilities, cost and infrastructure.
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