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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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May 26, 2018 - 11:00am PT
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Lynne,
We met and shared a beer a few years ago at Todd's.
We connected immediately and talked about Dan and loss and rebirth.
I know you would never write anything that would intentionally harm someone and I know this was not your intention with this thread.
Often times, memorials or other farewells bring one's own perspective to light.
Your subject really hits home as I have a large family and am estranged with more than one of the members.
Supertopo is a great place to be friends and look to others for advice but their is much bitterness here as well.
Forgiveness is not always the answer but, sometimes asking the question is.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2018 - 11:16am PT
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I so appreciate all of your responses.
e-Kat, I've been on the Taco for 10 years now and I don't know (the 2 months phrase) who the people you are referring to. I mean, I may know them, but not their situation.
Jan, I hope you know how much I respect you. I apologize for the pain I caused.
This thread was not in any, any way meaning to be judgmental. Again, I apologize if that's how it was perceived. Rather, things happen in our lives that need to be processed and addressed. Even if the addressing is walking away for awhile.
I don't come even close to knowing all the answers to troubling situations life brings. That's why I asked the question. I realized relationship questions can be painful, but for me, I need to sort them out and the campfire has helped me do this in the past.
I need to read all the responses once again before I do anything. There is good wisdom to think upon and viewpoints that open up things to consider.
One thing I do know from my own life, the path is a winding one,traversing many years. Who knows what will happen? For me nothing is set in stone until life ends.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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May 26, 2018 - 11:16am PT
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Lynne I always think of you as the “conscience” of the Forum. Loving, giving, caring, nonjudgmental ... wanting the best for everyone, accepting everyone as they are.
Assuming positive intent on your part I think your thoughts and questions open up dynamics of relationships that are challenging and difficult and have many paths to “what they are or what they became”.
I think it is possible to love deeply and completely yet not able to sustain a relationship, the reasons are many, and often complex...many have been mentioned already. Our family is the one group of people that we had no choice to be born into. For most families they navigate the myriad of personalities that appear somewhere on the “functional” spectrum. Some see each other frequently, others manage successful familial ties by lots of time and distance apart. Generally there is some thread, no matter how thin or fine it’s stretched that family doesn’t fall off the radar.
However there are some families that do lose track of family members and as sad as it may seem looking in, for some it is the only way to maintain self preservation. We can’t fault someone for doing what they need to do for maintaining self health. It could be easy to say “someone is just being selfish and cutting off their nose to spite their face”. But really, we can never know, we never had to walk in their shoes.
I saw it in my own family with an aunt and my cousin. It was not about abuse but politics. My cousin’s life in her 20s was absorbed by being Anti war (Vietnam) activist. Her family was career military. The depth of those two beliefs was so deep they could not be reconciled. Even to the point of my cousin becoming an expat, that once she left America she never returned. My aunt was torn by it, I don’t believe my cousin had many, if any, regrets. The last we knew she lives in Australia and has grown children.
It did seem odd, but became normal, that one of the cousins we all grew up with, and went to family reunions with, basically has been missing these last 40 years.
Susan
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2018 - 11:44am PT
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When my Dad was 3 he had two older sisters and a younger brother. His Mom went to the hospital to have the 5th child. She died in childbirth and his younger brother died at the same time when the babysitter accidentally gave him an overdose of laudanum.
His Dad gathered up the 3 siblings to go for a drive. The drive ended at an orphanage with the promise of coming back in a few days to pick them up. He never returned.
My Dad was adopted by an older, childless couple. His adopted Father worked in the stockyards and was a meatpacker. Dad had to collect him from bars.
His middle sister was fortunate and was adopted by a well to do Dr. and wife.
His oldest sister did not fare so well.
Life wound up and down and all around and when we moved to California thru a miracle (I call it) my Dad met someone and was then able to track down after time his two sisters. My Dad's Dad spent time in prison. He came back into my Dad's life right before he died.
We don't know the end til the end.
Life............Choices
Right now I am challenged, which is why all your input, and I mean all, is important to me. I am not challenged about the above story. I just recalled it when Susan shared hers. I learn much from others stories.
And Susan, kindred spirit, I chuckle. I could never be a conscience, I struggle too much to figure life out.
e-kat, I did miss that. I'm sorry. I would never deliberately do anything to cause pain. Hugs.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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May 26, 2018 - 11:59am PT
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Lynne, I know your intentions are only good and I have tremendous respect for you too. I think you just didn't realize what some of us have been through or the depth of feeling this thread would provoke. I have accordingly removed a couple of the more judgmental comments from my thread.
I think the problem is that as outsiders to a family, we never really know if a person is just being selfish or apathetic or truly escaping a bad situation. Even if we were to interview all the people involved, we might still not know anything beyond the fact that everyone interpreted the situation differently. Some people are more sensitive than others.
Time and the death of certain family members sometimes helps and sometimes the other family members can reconstruct a relationship. In my experience, this still doesn't erase the lack of trust based on what went on before. An uneasy truce is maintained, but a warm intimate relationship will never be reclaimed. It's a fact of life that some people have better family karma than others and it's best to just pick up the pieces and carry on.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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May 26, 2018 - 12:00pm PT
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Forty years passed without a word between my mother and her father. By the time dementia had taken him beyond the realm of care providable by his immediately proximal family, the inhuman, physically violent stepmother had passed away. My mother was able to care for her dear old man in comfort and dignity theough to his final day, in her home, to heal her wounded heart with the salve of giving to another in their time of utmost need. Pretty damn perfect if you ask me.
Now for the rest of us mere humans, I'm not sure how applicable this really is, other than a feel-good, an aspirational example.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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May 26, 2018 - 12:14pm PT
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People change, usually for the worse.
This has not been what I have experienced in my 57 years.
Change is constant in a healthy life. Change is the vibrancy of a growing soul.
Change brings knowledge and hope.
Change is good.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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May 26, 2018 - 12:14pm PT
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How can we, what makes us, decide to toss people, or even ease people, out of our lives?
Sounds good when James Taylor encourages us to shower the people we love with love. It's easy to love those that are nice to us and care.
Who sings about loving thru?
This is leaving out so many aspect of life. The formulation can be read as self-referential, judgmental and moralistic.
What if loving thru at times means letting go? What about love as accepting dear ones going their own way, staying away?
There's times when self-love and love of one's own judgments are taken for true love. There's times when distance to oneself is needed to distinguish between love and self-love.
There's a difference between passive reactive feelings ruling the mind and the choice of active feelings and inquiry if one really wants to understand...
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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May 26, 2018 - 01:21pm PT
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And you know Hilde, if Robert Fonda were here (what a wonderful mentor) he would look at me, laugh at me, and set me straight. I treasure the time we took walks and I asked him all sorts of questions.
My favorite answer from him....."sell them all to the slave traders". :)
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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May 26, 2018 - 05:28pm PT
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I've had to place boundaries on my father. It took me until going through extensive rehab and therapy for alcoholism to come to grips with his role in that. He is a good, loving father but his overbearing, self-righteous mentality caused all of his children to have problems with self esteem and self confidence. I chose alcohol to deal with it.
I don't blame him, his father died when he was two and was raised by his mother into adulthood, so he had no reference base.
edit: Lynne- my father had more good qualities than the above and is not entirely to blame for my problem. All his children earned bachelors through doctorate degrees and have been successful in their fields partially due to the above qualities I put in a negative connotation.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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May 26, 2018 - 05:49pm PT
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When I read your story, johntp, I resonated with your words, your life and your authenticity with some tears. What came to my minds eye was looking at your life through a stained glass window with all sorts of beautiful colors as the sun shines thru it. When the clouds come the stained glass is still there, still the same.......
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Trump
climber
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May 26, 2018 - 05:57pm PT
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We make this sh#t up. Family, like most of our tribal bullsh#t, is exactly that - tribalism. Our preference for our own family is as foundational to tribalism as it gets.
The reason we’re so hung up on family is because it’s in our genes. 4 billion years of becoming humans means that we think we should remained connected to our family and friends (because that’s what has worked to our best advantage). Or if you prefer to believe it, maybe it’s cause we’re just groovy righteous beings that way.
Yea, my adoptive family are mostly not genetically related to me. In a way I chose my adopted children more than I chose my biological child. Does that matter to me? Not that I can tell.
But would I care as much about my daughter if she was just some black girl living in poverty somewhere? Should I? I’m not as attached to some random black girl living in poverty as I am to my daughter. And is that a good thing? We should feel bad about not being as attached to our families as we “should” be - not being inclined to work harder towards our family’s advantage than we do?
Me, I think not, but I also observe that (unfortunately), yes, we humans do care more about our ‘tribe’ than about other people. This social/emotional/tribal human identity bullshit has some staying power.
And it just seems to be getting worse. If you’re in the Trump supporter tribe, you believe whatever nonsense he spews, and you forgive him his irrighteous transgressions of values that you used to think defined you. And if you’re in the opposite camp, your brain gets warped in the opposite direction. We’ve been slowly trying to overcome this tribal bullsh#t, but there are still lots of people who prefer their (eg white) tribe.
My best sense of it is be you, for the reasons that you be you. But if you want to be honest about those reasons, don’t sugarcoat our tribal bullshit in our righteous favor. And while I would hope these ideas don’t have less value to you because they’re not coming from family and friends, I expect, like the rest of us, that they do have less value, and that you suffer from the same social/emotional/tribal belief warping thinking processes that the rest of us do.
Best to you! Regardless.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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May 26, 2018 - 06:12pm PT
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Please, this is absolutely not a political thread.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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May 26, 2018 - 06:33pm PT
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This is an interesting and important subject, and I hope you won't delete the whole thread.
On that latter subject: Yes, this thread might be unpleasant for some. But if we deleted every thread that was unpleasant for somebody... Think about it... Avalanche safety? No way, my friend died in an avalanche. Rappel techniques? No way, my sister died in a rapelling accident. And on and on and on. There can be few subjects that aren't abhorrent to someone, and we can't ban everything and everybody.
But back to the subject of family... There can be other reasons than nastiness and abuse to separate oneself from one's family. I was blessed with parents who raised me with love and respect, and although I ended up far from them on the map, I "went home" regularly and stayed close as long as they were alive.
But, although I loved them deeply, and they me, I never felt any blood connection. I was so different from them, and from everyone else in the extended family, that I always felt as if, as a baby, I'd landed from another planet and they'd found me and adopted me. I look so much like them physically that I know I really was their child, but the connection was always a deep love and respect, not blood.
While they were still alive, I'd see the rest of my family when I visited them, but, for me, there was no sense of family. Nice people, but not my people. And, since my father died, I haven't seen any of them, nor felt any desire to.
I'm not even sure I understand "family" in the way it's generally assumed people do. The closest thing I have felt to "family" is the climbing community. There might not have been a place for me in the family or the community of my birth, but I found a place in the extended family of climbing.
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Trump
climber
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May 26, 2018 - 06:41pm PT
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Did you think my post was politics? One little example of how what I’m saying gets manifested in wider human society, and all you saw was politics? You asked for help, and I shared what I could, from my personal life and experience and my individual perspective, on exactly the topic you asked for help on, but you see it and react the way you do, for the reasons that you do. If you don’t like what I’m saying, my best help for you is to at least be honest with yourself about why you don’t like it. I might have a different experience of and perspective on family and our human tribalism than you’re used to hearing. That tribal family based identity bullshit that we want to be so proud of, and to benefit from, might have a side to it that we prefer not to see, a side like racism and sexism and even political tribalism. Yea I don’t like that about us either. Best to you, regardless.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 26, 2018 - 06:45pm PT
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To add to what ghost said, I have heard that long lost children who find biological family have a tearful happy reunion for the cameras, but a lot of them have very little connection after that, especially if they have no memory of the family.
I have a friend who recently had to put his father in a care facility and sell the family home. Him and his brother went about packing up the house and dealing with "the stuff" which included pictures. He found his parents wedding picture and it was dated a year after he was born. He wondered allowed, WTF? His brother told him that "dad" was not his biological parent. Really did not affect his view of his parents. Plenty of love and caring, and that is what family is about.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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May 26, 2018 - 07:14pm PT
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Thanks Ghost.
The past 10 years has similarity in a small way with what you just described. A scrambled egg comes to mind. I went from a strong Mom to a strong husband with pretty much no time lapse in between. When husband, father died that's when the scrambled egg phase began.
I'm not sure what happened, one of these days I'll ask. But my best guess is that a huge gap appeared in our family with nothing immediate to fill it. Everyone did their best, but everyone was hurting and trying to find their own answers, their own way.
I needed input, a lot of support and this campfire took time to give it. Many spoke to me from their own loss of friends, family and broken places in their own lives.
Crazy, but when I went to the Bridwell Memorial I felt a real sense of family, posse as they say.
After the Memorial I went to Lee Vining and stayed with a friend. How I met this person......driving from Mary Lake after the Bachar Memorial I saw 2 guys and a gal with huge back packs hitching. I NEVER pick up hitch hikers. But I felt strongly I should pick them up (that crazy jesus thing in my life)
Several years later I got a job at Tioga Pass Resort and went to the Mobile for Thursday night music. A young man came up to me. He was one of those I picked up and somehow recognized me. He lives near Mono Lake and we have been fast friends ever since. ( A climber, of course)
You're right Ghost, the climbing community has filled a "family" spot for many.
And T. sorry, I just didn't understand what you were saying.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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May 26, 2018 - 09:39pm PT
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And T. sorry, I just didn't understand what you were saying.
Lynne- I don't get his drift either other than he seems to be saying having a sense of "family" is logically unwarranted.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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May 26, 2018 - 11:42pm PT
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The positive aspect of having a dysfunctional family that a person distances themselves from is that you look elsewhere for your support and become much more open to other people in the world who are not of your tribe. That has definitely been beneficial to my profession of anthropology. Conversely I think I probably became an anthropologist in part, because I always felt I was an outside observer to my own family. I have found people all over the world however, who have treated me like I was one of their own. Unfortunately, many people coming from dysfunctional families are never able to experience that.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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May 27, 2018 - 01:21am PT
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hey there, say, jan... yes, that is so true...
that is why friendships are so important, they are the balm, that
helps, when there is no where else to go...
hmmm, it seems that this is helping a lot of folks...
i might put back part of my post...
not just for lynne, (was going to email it, to her) ...
but, who knows, someone may need to read some of these thoughts, someday,
if they feel alone... :(
reach out, stay joined to friends, and grow into who you hope to be...
if you ever need to 'see the old trail again' of family, etc,
you will know... and if, you should not, you will know, too...
just a note, for anyone, for the future, :)
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