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madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 15, 2018 - 11:28am PT
is utterly foreign to anyone in the central European countries.

Yeah, as was the notion of a constitutional republic prior to the founding of the United States.

I'm SO glad that the USA is not yet just another European socialist democracy.

It's coming, but hopefully long after I'm gone.

Meanwhile, pointing to Europe as an example of how to be is a non-starter in my mind. Must be nice to be a member of NATO and have the USA carry the vast majority of the weight!

Just imagine what their economies would be like if they had to actually pay for real national defense. Same with Canada. What if the USA withdrew entirely from NATO and said, "We're done with paying your way. If you don't want to be overrun by Germany (again) or the new Soviets, then you'd best get serious about national defense again."

The USA makes it easy for these other nations to pretend that their perspectives are economically sustainable.

The above is not really thread-drift, because these policies and perspectives are deeply interrelated. The "nanny state" mentality (including perspectives on the government being a good proxy for self-defense) is only as sustainable as it is economically sustainable.

In the USA we can still pretend that it "could" be viable. But Europe and Canada are living in a fantasy-land that we've helped create.
kingtut

climber
Jingus Newroutaineer
May 15, 2018 - 11:45am PT
Richard, you don't know the first f*#king thing about Europe or living with others that are different from yourself in Okla-f*#king-homa.

The USA lost only 500,000 troops in WW2.

The Europeans and Soviet Republics lost something like 30,000,000 human beings.

We were nothing in the European Theatre. All we did was mop up some old men and boys.

THE BOMB gave Europe security...and it was developed BY EUROPEAN know how.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 15, 2018 - 12:01pm PT
^^^ LOL

Wow, were you spitting as you wrote that.

Look it up. NATO is paid for by the USA. Europe and Canada haven't pulled their military weight during our lifetimes.

And that breeds a "nanny state" mentality.
Todd Eastman

Social climber
Putney, VT
May 15, 2018 - 02:13pm PT
If the US wants NATO, the US needs to pay for NATO...

If the US doesn't want to play by that, Russia will step into the void left by Trump's foolish attempts at policy...
kingtut

climber
Jingus Newroutaineer
May 15, 2018 - 02:44pm PT
And that breeds a "nanny state" mentality.

You believe what RW Radio tells you to believe, nothing more.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 15, 2018 - 02:56pm PT
^^^ Fail.

There are objective facts. Live within those, and our discussions have a hope of being productive.

But you perpetually devolve into personal attacks a wild speculations about my motives, character, sanity, etc.

Facts are facts. The USA almost single-handedly sustains NATO, and that at vast, vast expense to us.

There are pros and cons to that commitment, but the fact remains that Europe and Canada have US-propped-up economies that enable a nanny-state approach that we're significantly paying for. Let them pay for their own national defense in-toto, and you'd see a sudden and significant scale-back of socialist policies.

No worries, though. We've got your back. (And front.)
kingtut

climber
Jingus Newroutaineer
May 15, 2018 - 03:47pm PT
^^^^"Objective Facts" a "Nanny State"???

ROFL do you even know what the word "objective" means?

Describing something as a "Nanny State" is purely subjective opinion. You believe what you want to believe as you have never lived there yourself, have you? Don't knock it till you have LIVED it.

Facts are facts. The USA almost single-handedly sustains NATO, and that at vast, vast expense to us.

And WHY pray tell, would we do that?

Because it is a GIGANTIC WELFARE SUBSIDY TO OUR OWN MIC THAT'S WHY AND GOOD FOR US TO HAVE OTHERS CONTAIN THE SOVIETS/RUSSIA WITH THEIR SOIL AND OUR BASES THERE.

FFS its like talking to a child that listens to Rush Limbaugh.

We support NATO because it helps our MIC to be more powerful than any other on Earth and increases American Hegemony. If the Europeans "carried their weight" like your RW propaganda tells you they should they would be a threat to our world dominance and military might.

Classic RW talking out of both sides of their mouths to criticize Europe when it actually benefits the MIC that they love.

And guess what Richard: You didn't come up with that criticism of NATO on your own. Smarter men told you to think that because they get rich ginning you up to hate others and keeping you from thinking about what they really are doing: Looting the Treasury for the MIC's profit.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
May 15, 2018 - 03:52pm PT
Welfare? Who's welfare?

Consider, for a moment, the American Empire and it's vassal states and allies.

Also consider, the cost of maintenance of that Empire, through arms, through trade, through coercion, through cooperation and good will. Tally the dollars per year for that maintenance and compare that to the resulting trade and generation of business.

If you accept the premise of empire, then consider the cost of alternative methods of empire maintenance.

I suspect, after all the columns are summed you will find NATO has been an incredible bargain. I mean consider, join NATO and get your very own American Military Base right there on your country's soil. And it won't cost you one cent more than regular hotel guest rates.

After all, gotta help protect them from the Hun.

Now if you're a peace loving hippy who trusts in the good will of men, well, NATO is a front for the world's greatest arms merchants. Which it is. But again, consider the alternatives....

The member states of NATO sure can get all Puff Daddy... till the shooting starts in earnest, that is.

DMT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 15, 2018 - 04:20pm PT
Now if you're a peace loving hippy who trusts in the good will of men, well, NATO is a front for the world's greatest arms merchants. Which it is.

Absolutely!

Perhaps we could all get on the same page about the idea that the US MIC should be cut in half, we should not longer be policeman to the world, we should abandon in-toto the sick manifest destiny crap, and then spend a decade or two enduring the pain of the "reset" that this would introduce.

In the end, we'd come out of it far more economically healthy, and the the NATO countries could learn again what it is to pay their own freight.

Of course, nobody can (live long enough to) become president (or even powerful senator) with that agenda.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 15, 2018 - 04:22pm PT
ginning you up to hate others

Ah, and there it is again. The forever liberal punt: "ANY ideas I don't like are hate speech."

Nothing more to say to you. You insist on personal attacks, and I won't play your game.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
May 15, 2018 - 04:28pm PT
Perhaps we could all get on the same page about the idea that the US MIC should be cut in half, we should not longer be policeman to the world, we should abandon in-toto the sick manifest destiny crap, and then spend a decade or two enduring the pain of the "reset" that this would introduce.

In the end, we'd come out of it far more economically healthy, and the the NATO countries could learn again what it is to pay their own freight.

Of course, nobody can (live long enough to) become president (or even powerful senator) with that agenda.

Who really can look into Galadriel's Mirror and discern the truth of the future. Even the wise cannot tell :)

But empires have historically been reset through war and hard falls. Willingly surrendering empire and the resultant implosion of trade and cash, well, that is indeed a hard sell and not just to presidents and tycoons. It would be a hard sell to blokes like me as well. Sorry but I'm not convinced that a couple of decades (if they are lucky) of Decline and Fall will be good for my children, nor their descendants.

At the end of the day though, none of it really matters. If we stop thinking of nations as individuals and acknowledge they are at their core, the howling mad Mob and the tides of history wax and wan, wax and wan through great heavings of the mass of humanity swaying this way and that? I think we will come to better understand the sine wave of reality respects no man's opinion.

Cheers though!
DMT
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
May 15, 2018 - 04:48pm PT
Well said Dingus.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
May 15, 2018 - 04:55pm PT
^^^^"Objective Facts" a "Nanny State"???

ROFL do you even know what the word "objective" means?

Describing something as a "Nanny State" is purely subjective opinion. You believe what you want to believe as you have never lived there yourself, have you? Don't knock it till you have LIVED it.

And WHY pray tell, would we do that?

Because it is a GIGANTIC WELFARE SUBSIDY TO OUR OWN MIC THAT'S WHY AND GOOD FOR US TO HAVE OTHERS CONTAIN THE SOVIETS/RUSSIA WITH THEIR SOIL AND OUR BASES THERE.

FFS its like talking to a child that listens to Rush Limbaugh.

We support NATO because it helps our MIC to be more powerful than any other on Earth and increases American Hegemony. If the Europeans "carried their weight" like your RW propaganda tells you they should they would be a threat to our world dominance and military might.

Classic RW talking out of both sides of their mouths to criticize Europe when it actually benefits the MIC that they love.

And guess what Richard: You didn't come up with that criticism of NATO on your own. Smarter men told you to think that because they get rich ginning you up to hate others and keeping you from thinking about what they really are doing: Looting the Treasury for the MIC's profit.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 15, 2018 - 07:16pm PT
Sure love me a good objective unemotional discussion.
Since I skipped third grade now I know what it musta been like -
like second grade but with two syllable vitriol.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 15, 2018 - 11:45pm PT
I think we will come to better understand the sine wave of reality respects no man's opinion.

There's probably more truth to that then my idealism would like to admit.

Sigh.

So, I guess that we all should just buckle down and get to paying more taxes, so that we can keep the MIC afloat. I can think of better uses for our money. But, then, what do "we the people" have to say about it?

Now you've just got me all depressed, DMT. Thanks a lot.

;-)
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 16, 2018 - 01:14am PT
madbolter1,

I admire your persistence in trying to maintain a discussion based on fact and rational arguments, but the title of this thread reflects disinterest in convincing those with whom they disagree. I've come to the reluctant conclusion that we waste our time responding to that sort of hyperbole. Facts and logic have little effect in such an environment.

Quite simply, titles like that of this thread don't invite consensus. They invite war. Maybe we need to call out that sort of rhetoric before we attempt to present arguments on the merits.

You deserve credit for eliciting some intelligent responses, but it took an enormous amount of effort to get a bit of wheat from a mountain of chaff. Nonetheless, thank you for trying.

John
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
May 16, 2018 - 06:17am PT
+1,000, John. Yep. Yep.

BAd
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 16, 2018 - 08:36am PT
Thank you, John.

It does seem that many people who start out with hard lines and inflammatory language are actually willing to engage in discussion. In general, people on this thread have been willing to dialog, which has been quite refreshing to me and worth my time.

I continue to hope that we're not nearly as divided in this country as rhetoric makes it initially seem.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 18, 2018 - 09:25am PT
School shooting in Texas, at least 8 dead. Near Galveston

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/santa-fe-texas-shooting/index.html

Lots of thoughts and prayers being offered. unfortunately that has proven highly ineffective

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 18, 2018 - 09:36am PT
Ollie North, Lead Terrorist
Ollie North, Lead Terrorist
Credit: Craig Fry

$40 Million of Russian money funneled through the NRA for 2016 election??

The NRA is a sponsor of terror
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