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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 25, 2018 - 01:34am PT
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Can you hear that? I can hear it.
What’s that sound? Is it a klaxon fire bell or a conch shell horn?
I can hear it louder now...
Marching for All Their Lives
There’s an aura in the air
Where when once some did not care
And if you listen carefully
There’s a new sound for to hear
It’s the sound of youthful voices
That are soon to fill the air
Crying for their very lives
To the people pledged to serve
Who’ve been promised to another
And whose will is yet to swerve
But the children coming forward
Now too numerous to ignore
Have a government gone backwards
All these children don’t deserve
They are standing tens of millions
Soon a hundred million more
They’ve been paying their father’s sins
But they soon will pay no more
When their day of reckoning does come
They shall even up the score
-bushman
Here's what the NRA had to say today about the March for Our Lives
To hear the National Rifle Association tell it, Saturday's March for Our Lives was orchestrated by billionaires and Hollywood to push an anti-gun agenda.
On Facebook Saturday morning, the NRA posted a short membership-drive video along with a brief message;
"Stand and Fight for our Kids' Safety by Joining NRA," it said. "Today's protests aren't spontaneous. Gun-hating billionaires and Hollywood elites are manipulating and exploiting children as part of their plan to DESTROY the Second Amendment and strip us of our right to defend ourselves and our loved ones."
Offering thoughts and prayers for the victims of gun violence is never enough. It’s classic subterfuge and code for, “We want you to think we care but we’re not really willing to do anything about it.
For awhile I had my doubts about the state and moral character of Kids in America these days. But all told now, I think the kids are alright...
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Mar 25, 2018 - 04:09am PT
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I went to the San Diego protest because I have had enough. I was not alone, something is different this time around. Young people are going to be the change we need to get a handle on the gun violence that is killing 96 people EVERYDAY. The NRA can try to marginalize the movement, but I will guarantee, the right wing is taking notice.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Mar 25, 2018 - 04:32am PT
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43531391
For those in need of help, for those in need of somebody, Beatles legend Sir Paul McCartney was on hand at the march in New York, Manhattan, to make a stand for what he said was a personal stake in the gun control debate.
"One of my best friends was shot not far from here," he said, referring to John Lennon, who was gunned down near the park in 1980.
The futures of our children are being kept hostage by 5 million gunmen--the members of the NRA!!!!
DO SOMETHING, DAMMIT!!!!
Conundrum
When the NRA calls someone a gun-hating billionaire, it's telling me that the people who own guns and spend millions on them every year must be POOR FOLK or they wouldn't be blaming the rich. Any rational person hearing this talk would think, "This is impossible, for how would they come by the money to buy ammo and more guns if this is so?"
It is far past the time to invalidate the Second Amendment. This needs to happen and SOON.
Would you sit still while your boy takes his bb gun and shoots his little brother or sister with it? Hell no! He's shown he's not responsible enough to own an air rifle. Well, the same applies to the gun owners of America who have pretty much shown the world that people are not, as a whole, wise enough to keep them away from dickheads.
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Don Paul
Gym climber
Denver CO
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Mar 25, 2018 - 06:19am PT
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The NRA should be considered a PAC (political action committee) rather than a non profit. Most of what the NRA does is political lobbying and it should be subject to political campaign finance laws.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Mar 25, 2018 - 06:37am PT
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Just s an FYI, the billboard at the top of the OP, paid for by MadDog PC, was founded by one of the Twitterese that I have been following since the Trumpocalypse began.
His name is Claude Taylor, and he was in the Clinton White House, and has been part of several presidential campaigns. His Twitter is http://www.Twitter.com/truefactsstated
The billboards are paid for through donations from everyday people following the account, with a smattering of those followers also being high profile people as well.
They also have had anti-GOP billboards aimed to bringing attention to some of the pols who have things maybe the public ought to consider, in a person who is supposed to have the public's trust and hold their welfare as a priority.
You can support MadDog Pac in a variety of ways, t-shirts stickers and such, as well as just plain old donations, if you live in a place where you may have to be under the radar in going against the NRA/GOP grain.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Mar 25, 2018 - 06:54am PT
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Thoughts and prayers are not only not enough they are nothing at all and have zero effect on outcomes.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Mar 25, 2018 - 07:25am PT
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By the 2020 election, half of those high schoolers will have a vote. By 2024, there will be millions more kids sick of being told that their safety is less important than campaign cash.
TE
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Mar 25, 2018 - 07:26am PT
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rick santorum this am: “How about kids instead of looking to someone else to solve their problems
do something about maybe take CPR classes or trying to deal with situations where there is a violent shooter...”.
so much for the social contract, the common good, and representative democracy.
we're all in this alone, so embrace victimhood now!
dis f'n repubgusting
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Mar 25, 2018 - 07:41am PT
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^He really said such a thing!? What in hell is going ON with these people?
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Mar 25, 2018 - 08:51am PT
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I went to the San Diego protest because I have had enough. I was not alone, something is different this time around. Young people are going to be the change we need to get a handle on the gun violence that is killing 96 people EVERYDAY. The NRA can try to marginalize the movement, but I will guarantee, the right wing is taking notice.
I am hoping that the kids, and adults, continue this movement. If they vote like they say they will, then all of the old white men in congress will soon be out of a job.
This movement kind of feels like the anti war movement of the sixties.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 25, 2018 - 08:56am PT
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Better get rid of that old sterile brainwashed aszhole John Bolton first.
He's a real terrorist within your own country who should be in jail ......
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Mar 25, 2018 - 09:11am PT
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If all those people of legal age get out and vote then change may happen.
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Mar 25, 2018 - 09:14am PT
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The Santorum quote (above) is taken out of a much longer dialog and was seemingly selected to make the comment seem as outrageous as possible. The overall point Santorum made was that protesting for someone else to solve the problem while doing nothing yourself is unhelpful. "They took action to ask someone to pass a law," Santorum said. "They didn't take action to say, 'How do I, as an individual, [going to] deal with this problem? How am I going to do something about stopping bullying within my own community ... ?'"
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 25, 2018 - 09:18am PT
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Yeah, Santorum and all the other right wingers would just looooove for them to stfu and do nothing and ignore the problem. He can go eat sh#t.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Mar 25, 2018 - 09:19am PT
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Santorum is even stupider than I thought.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Mar 25, 2018 - 09:23am PT
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With Bolton the POTUS has gotten someone who will supply him with the war he need to have a chance to gain popularity in at least half the American population..
By working for maximal availability of weapons the NRA is facilitating terror. And the biggest contribution to terror comes from occupation of foreign territory... The more weapons sold, the more conflict. The more conflict, the more weapons sold. Occupation of foreign territory and conflict is a treasure to the NRA.
The close NRA ties and money given to and American politicians, is very similar to an institutionalisation of corrution. Part of the American system is this institutionalisation of corruption... legal corruption...
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Mar 25, 2018 - 09:26am PT
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Santorum is even stupider than I thought.
Living in PA for the past quarter century I can tell you that Rick Santorum will always be stupider than you ever think. Even if you sit on a couch and solely focus on the stupidest stupid you can possibly conjure up, Rick Santorum will blow the doors off that low limit in a heartbeat. Consider it a challenge to envision something stupider than Rick Santorum and then watch his Twitter feed or CNN or whatever other outlet he can get visibility on and wait a few months. It's pure entertainment and provides a distinct 'wow' factor in a rather breathtaking manner. Enjoy the show.
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2018 - 09:26am PT
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Another question about Rick Santorum is; what has he done to curb gun violence during his 12 years in the Senate? These kids are marching for their lives and spurring on a national conversation. They are letting Washington know that the gun lobby may well not be the majority voice in Congress in 2020 or even 2016. What has Santorum done besides exhibit his marital infidelity on the national stage? Sounds like many others we know.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Mar 25, 2018 - 09:29am PT
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Yup! Close 'em down! NOW!
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2018 - 09:37am PT
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A bigger question is, why have so many Americans allowed the NRA to try and take the whole Gun Control Issue hostage with their furthering extremism?
By working for maximal availability of weapons the NRA is facilitating terror. And the biggest contribution to terror comes from occupation of foreign territory... The more weapons sold, the more conflict. The more conflict, the more weapons sold. Occupation of foreign territory and conflict is a treasure to the NRA.
Perhaps in the long run the biggest threat to the Second Amendment inadvertently and by their own actions may be the NRA themselves.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Mar 25, 2018 - 09:43am PT
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those young people marching and protesting inaction on mass slaughter are smart and brave, I admire them
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Mar 25, 2018 - 09:58am PT
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With Bolton the POTUS has gotten someone who will supply him with the war he need to have a chance to gain popularity in at least half the American population..
trump wants a legacy. Something for people to remember him by, even if it leads to WWIII.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Mar 25, 2018 - 12:31pm PT
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Mar 25, 2018 - 12:44pm PT
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Add “petition” and “ association” to first amendment freedoms that libtards hate. Thugs.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Mar 25, 2018 - 01:27pm PT
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^^^
Only a matter of time before the bot showed up.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Mar 25, 2018 - 01:39pm PT
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Many of these young people will be voting this November. It is inspiring to see the youth engage in the political process, exercise their freedom to express their opinion, and not succumb to apathy and defeatism being proffered by the gun lobby and their shills.
The NRA, whose only aim is to support gun manufacturers to sell more guns and ammo, has resisted any common sense gun regulation, spread fear and lies, and is morally bankrupt. It is about time that they were called out on it.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Mar 25, 2018 - 02:25pm PT
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Add “petition” and “ association” to first amendment freedoms that libtards hate. Thugs.
oh come on how, Latuya
both your prior and now this new attempt to state exactly what the political right does not like about the political left are failures in vague platitudes
try again, be specific,
ps, don't try hypocrisy, it works both ways, that is not a unique "dislike"
here is an example - we rightists do not agree that women should be paid the same as men for the same work, that is why we voted against the Lilly Fair Pay Act
This angers us so much that we have decided to hate "liberals" for passing it
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Mar 25, 2018 - 04:19pm PT
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those young people marching and protesting inaction on mass slaughter are smart and brave, I admire them
So do I. Let's hope they don't lose interest and move on to other things in their lives a couple of years from now.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Mar 25, 2018 - 04:36pm PT
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The Court in Heller, with Scalia writing the opinion, has already affirmed restrictions
(2) Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose:
The court is not the problem, the politicians are.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 25, 2018 - 06:00pm PT
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Hate to beat a whooped horse but there’s lotsa guns in Canuckistan and Switzerland.
Why aren’t they crazy and killin’ each other? They got the firepower! What’s stoppin’
‘em, sanity?
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Mar 25, 2018 - 06:07pm PT
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The Constitution gives the right to bear arms, but it also says we have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It seems that some NRA people feel that the 2nd amendment trumps the right to life.
Having said that, gun ownership is a complex subject. In Brazil, they have only a fraction of the amount of guns that we do, but their homicide rate is 5-6 times as high as ours.
I applaud the interest being shown by these young people, but guns are only a part of the equation. There is a homicide in this Country about every 35 minutes, and a large portion of them are done to persons by those who have a close relationship with them. For example, about 30% of the women murder victims are done in by their husbands. I am glad these young people are concerned, but I hope they take time to really study the subject and come up with the most effective solutions for reducing violence. Rates of violent crime are dropping. If you look at this chart:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/187592/death-rate-from-homicide-in-the-us-since-1950/
It is surprising that the homicide rates in 1980 were much larger than, for example in 2015. Still, the approx. 13,000 homicides we have now are a lot.
There was a very informative piece in a Miami paper by a doctor who treated gunshot wounds. He said that if a bullet from a handgun hits a major organ, the injury is often survivable, but that a single round from an AR-15 rifle wipes out the entire organ, and almost invariably results in a fatality.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Mar 25, 2018 - 07:28pm PT
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Rick Sanatorium is insane.
In a representative form of government, a group of people elect a person to represent them. The people are expected to communicate their needs and wants to the representative, who then acts on their behalf.
Sanatorium is saying that people shouldn't petition their representatives for change, but instead should find a way, on their own, to compensate for an adverse, distressing and dangerous situation.
I've never been a member of the NRA, but have been around guns all my life. I don't think extreme gun laws make any sense, but some regulation does make sense.
Any tool or invention can be used as a weapon. The first time a caveman sharpened a stick to hunt food, he also threw it at his neighbor. Even the internet, Facebook and other computer systems have been weaponized.
Limiting access to one form of weapon is not going to stop people from hurting each other. It would make more sense to work toward eliminating the motive, rather than restricting access to the means.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Mar 25, 2018 - 08:04pm PT
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Limiting access to one form of weapon is not going to stop people from hurting each other. It would make more sense to work toward eliminating the motive, rather than restricting access to the means.
Shhhhh! Critical thinking is not allowed on these posts Tom....
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Mar 25, 2018 - 08:23pm PT
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(Reuters) - Remington Outdoor Co Inc [FREDM.UL], one of the largest U.S. makers of firearms, filed for bankruptcy protection on Sunday to carry out a debt-cutting deal with creditors amid mounting public pressure for greater gun control.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Mar 25, 2018 - 09:02pm PT
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My bolt-action .22, with a tubular magazine under the barrel, was made by Remington, and rebranded as Sears, Roebuck, and Co.
It's one of my favorite possessions. I first shot it about five decades ago.
EDIT:
That's what they do in Switzerland. Almost zero shootings there.
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Mar 25, 2018 - 09:04pm PT
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Give everyone a gun.
At age 21, male or female, you go before the Federal Arms Licensing Board and you are examined for fitness and sanity.
If deemed eligible, you will attend a 10 week course on gun handling and safety.
Once you pass the finals exam, you have the right to purchase and own a single firearm; that being a 30.06 rifle.
No other rifle or handgun may be possessed, manufactured or duplicated. We picked the 30.06 for it's universality for practical hunting and food gathering.
When guns become tools and not toys -we will have made progress.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Karkoekstan, Former USSR
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Defiantly the most racist organization founded by the founders of KKK
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Defiantly the most racist organization founded by the founders of KKK
Defiance, I say! And founded founders too!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Is that in Ohio...?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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The Constitution gives the right to bear arms, but it also says we have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It seems that some NRA people feel that the 2nd amendment trumps the right to life.
I hate to be picky, but the Constitution does not provide a right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." You're quoting the Declaration of Independence. Amendment V of the Constitution provides that no one may be deprived of life, among other things, without due process of law.
While I'm happy to see true interest in important political affairs by the high schoolers, their logic needs some improvement. They say they're too young to handle a gun until they're 21, but they're old enough to vote at 18. If nothing else, the last election should demonstrate which of these activities has more potential for harm.
John
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Gunsmoke, the excuses you make for Santorum don't make his comments any more reasonable or comprehensible.
The Santorum quote (above) is taken out of a much longer dialog and was seemingly selected to make the comment seem as outrageous as possible. The overall point Santorum made was that protesting for someone else to solve the problem while doing nothing yourself is unhelpful. "They took action to ask someone to pass a law," Santorum said. "They didn't take action to say, 'How do I, as an individual, [going to] deal with this problem? How am I going to do something about stopping bullying within my own community ... ?'"
Aren't you describing how our political system works in your Santorum rationalizations?? . . i.e. the people speak and the politicians listen.
On second thought, I'm not sure this is how our system works.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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The NRA has some 5 million members
many of whom fondly harken back to the good old days when the NRA was about teaching little Timmy to shoot his Daisy BB rifle
today the NRA rightfully honors the Second Amendment
making sure that should King George of England mess with us again that we can round up militias
who will grab their single shot black powder muskets and kick George's ass again
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Apparently the NRA wants to stir things up! LOL This is unbelievable...... almost.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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phuck yeah, AR-15s for everyone!!!
"you ain't seen nuthin' yet"
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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This whole 2nd amendment thing is cracked.
The 2nd Amendment means that States can and should have their own well armed volunteer armmies. As independant states, united, in a republic, for mutual protection.
NOT one big country, all the same, all one.
Somewhere around John Adams the "big" goverment took over. Hamilton's financial plan undermined state power but like the Greeks and Germans of the present day, the unproductive states started riding on the productive ones.
So in the words of the constitution, California should not only be the 5th largest economy of the world, we should have one of the largest standing militia.
And this is why everyone is so confused. If states like California really had the power and independance it deserved, we would be calling the shots. The rest of the USA would be beholden to us instead of milking us for cash to fund all their stoopid projects in other states as well as the buracracy in DC and countless political campaigns.
NRA, whatever.
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dirtbag
climber
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Apparently the NRA wants to stir things up! LOL This is unbelievable...... almost.
Yeah...I’m actually speechless.
I think the act speaks for itself.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Ollie North, what a perfect choice. A gun-running traitor will now run the propaganda and lobbying arm of the U.S. arms manufacturing industry bent on continuing to profit by flooding our nation with yet more guns.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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In its Irrational Exuberance did the NRA just shoot itself in the foot? Better safety training is on the calendar now!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Well at least now there will be arms for hostages,..
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Graphs are so much fun
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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May 12, 2018 - 07:43pm PT
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You can pry my guns from my dead hands! Gun control advocates are HUGE GUN OWNERS!!!!!! What a bunch of hypocrite as#@&%es!!!!!!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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May 12, 2018 - 07:56pm PT
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Huge gun owners...? You mean like howitzers ...?
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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May 12, 2018 - 09:34pm PT
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https://theintercept.com/2018/05/12/oliver-north-nra-iran-contra/
THE NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION has always been clear about drugs: They’re terrifying.
Last year, NRA CEO Wayne LaPierre darkly warned that members of drug gangs “are infiltrating law enforcement and even the military.” In 2013, LaPierre proclaimed that “Latin American drug gangs have invaded every city of significant size in the United States,” and are a key part of the “hellish world” that awaits us in the future. When Charlton Heston was president of the NRA in the 1990s, he declared that regular Americans would soon be besieged by 10,000 drug dealers freed from prison by the Clinton administration.
It seems odd, then, that the next president of the NRA will soon be Oliver North, who spent years in the 1980s working together with large-scale cocaine traffickers and protecting a notorious narco-terrorist from the rest of the U.S. government......
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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May 14, 2018 - 08:11am PT
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Good stuff Werner!
I'm guessing he never expected to get shot in the chest by a car-line mom.
LOL
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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May 14, 2018 - 08:18am PT
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As a life member of the NRA I know what they do.
One thing they do is fight to keep your right to defend yourself and your family from all threats, foreign and domestic.
Your personal opinion of how important this right is may vary.
edit:
The thug in Werner's video did not survive the brave actions by that off duty police woman.
Though the children around the incident did. :)
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 14, 2018 - 09:00am PT
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What about the threat of lunatics easily obtaining military grade weapons?
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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May 14, 2018 - 09:14am PT
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Do you agree with the new NRA President Oliver North that the high school kids who survived the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School are "civil terrorists"?
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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May 14, 2018 - 09:45am PT
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Do you agree with the new NRA President Oliver North that the high school kids who survived the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School are "civil terrorists"?
Was he talking about all of the survivors? Or just the "I want my 15 minutes" brown shirts?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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May 14, 2018 - 09:53am PT
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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May 14, 2018 - 09:53am PT
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so when a high school kid speaks out against the causes of his classmates being killed he is now just hungry for fame, is that right honey boo boo?
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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May 14, 2018 - 11:12am PT
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If these are acceptable...
Is this okay?
IMO none of it is okay.
I'm just curious where the line is. Why is it fine to crap all over our current POTUS, when referring to our last POTUS by his first name used to cause such a fuss.
If posters are going to be (unjustly) labelled a racist, does that make it okay to play the role.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 14, 2018 - 11:28am PT
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nice move playing the political correctness card there Eddie
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 14, 2018 - 11:56am PT
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The NRA/Arms Merchants have made sure handguns and assault rifles are available like candy.
I've asked people to support this "like candy" meme, but so far no takers. It is actually very difficult to purchase a gun in the USA today (the supposed "gun show loophole notwithstanding), and it is even harder in most States to carry your gun in public.
Various research puts the total number of guns sold without a background check at between 10% and 15%. And there is already no "private-transfers exemption" (which is what the "gun show loophole" should really be called) in 21 of the 50 states. So, in about half of the states (like California), you're not going to "tighten up" transfers more than they already are.
Moreover, the 2002 Bureau of Justice Statistics published: "Firearm Use by Offenders," which found that only 0.7% of convicts bought their firearms at gun shows. 39.2% obtained them from illegal street dealers. The majority of the rest stole their guns or had them given to them by another criminal. So, there's not much of a "criminal pipeline" from the supposed "gun show loophole" to the commission of gun-crime using a "loophole" gun. Remember also that criminals regularly pass background checks.
Now, of course, we're talking about "legality." As with alcohol during Prohibition and drugs during our utter cluster-fornication of a "war on drugs," ILLEGAL guns can be easily gotten, and they are. Criminals are not obeying gun-control laws, and they never will.
Furthermore, gun-control advocates don't talk much (at all) about the numerous nut-job, mass-murderers who obtained their guns legally (under even what would have been the best proposed "gun control" legislation) and who even passed a federal background check.
So, any serious talk about "gun control" will have to seriously acknowledge the dual points that frame reality:
1) Guns are not going away in the USA, nor will they be substantively "reduced" in number. "Type" reductions are irrelevant, as "assault weapons" account for a statistically insignificant number of homicides.
2) Guns of all types are already profoundly heavily regulated, but criminals will ALWAYS have ILLEGAL channels to get their hands on guns; laws to further criminalize guns of any type will have zero effect on that fact.
Need I remind everybody that alcohol production and consumption went UP (as did its cost) during Prohibition, and the only "product" of that legislation was gangland-America? Same with the "war on drugs." Gun control will not, cannot, keep guns out of the hands of criminals. You can "do more" to legislate, but murder is already illegal, as is armed robbery, rape, etc. Drugs are illegal. Etc.
What we have learned from our own history, as well as the history of the most totalitarian nations in human history is that you CANNOT "regulate" the flow of any item or substance that a significant proportion of the population want! ALL you do by trying (even in the most totalitarian ways) is to create black markets, and the flow actually INCREASES, as it becomes more financially viable for gangland America to traffic in the item/substance.
So far from "like candy," it's already much harder to legally get a gun than a car, and it's much harder in most places in the USA to carry your gun than to drive your car in public.
The "number" of guns is not the problem, nor are "the laws." Of the hundreds of millions of guns in circulation, the fraction of them that are misused is so tiny as to be well within any statistical margin of error (the FBI Uniform Crime Statistics state that fewer than 1% of guns in circulation will ever be used in the commission of a crime). The vast, vast majority of legal gun owners are both law-abiding and responsible. And the vast, VAST majority of guns in circulation (including those possessed illegally) will never be used to commit a crime.
Finally, the vast majority of criminals using a gun in the commission of their crimes were already barred by federal law from possessing a firearm. Pittsburgh, for example, in a city-wide study found that more than 80% of gun-crime perps were already federally barred from even possessing a gun. And that percentage is a working benchmark nationally in numerous other studies.
In that context of reality, it strikes me that both "sides" are bandying about the term "terrorist" with chilling frequency, to the point that the term now fails to explicate.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 14, 2018 - 01:14pm PT
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Arizona has no waiting period or limit on the number of guns that can be bought. Pass a background check, boom.
Wait! That's already nothing akin to "like candy." I've been background checked repeatedly, and it's not a trivial process. Even in Arizona you can't get "guns like candy."
Or perhaps I don't understand what you mean by "like candy." To me, that signifies something like "trivially," which is not the case anywhere in the USA.
If I wanted a thousand AR-15s tomorrow, all I would have to do is go pick them up. Same for 1000 Glocks.
You apparently think that that's a big problem. I do not, nor do the majority of Americans. The reason is because the number of guns in circulation is not a problem. As I cited, the number of guns that are ever misused is so tiny that it's not even a statistical blip. Increase the number of guns in circulation by ten times, and it's still within the margin of error for any rigorous study.
The reason is because the vast, VAST majority of Americans the own and carry guns are law-abiding and responsible, so the vast majority of guns "in circulation" are never used in the commission of any crime.
So, I don't have the slightest problem with a law-abiding American that passes a background check (as you've rightly noted) having as many guns as they want to have. That person and his/her guns will almost certainly never be the slightest threat to anybody.
It's like that line in the movie, The Peacemaker, "It's not the guy who wants 100 nukes that I worry about. It's the guy who wants one."
The nut-job, wannabe mass-murderer who wants one or two guns is the guy who can probably pass a background check right up until the moment he goes off the rails. THAT guy (and gangland America) is/are the problem, NOT the guy in Arizona with a huge collection of various guns.
That is being sold like candy.
That's a very strange comparison to candy! Any kid can get candy. Anybody with a buck or less can get candy. Nobody getting candy has to pass a federal background check. Nobody has to register their candy anywhere. And the litany of disconnects goes on and on and on and on.
In fact, there is exactly ZERO correlation between "like candy" and buying a gun ANYWHERE in the USA. That's just a really bad analogy, and as a meme it should be abandoned as being obviously unsustainable.
If we can't be serious in our use of rhetoric, then we can't have productive discussions. Guns in the USA are NOTHING "like candy." Period.
Where do the perps get all their guns, Richard?
That remains a largely open question that should be rigorously studied. I strongly support (and have repeatedly stated that on threads like these) Congress allocating funding to such studies.
I am not a member of the NRA and will never be, and I am angry with that organization for lobbying against funding for such studies! But seeing them as an utterly biased special-interest is a FAR cry from "calling them out" as a "terrorist organization!"
Despite the fact that we don't know in sufficient detail where perps get their guns, we do have some solid insights, as I cited in my previous post. And we know that only the tiniest fraction (+-1%) get them at gun shows through some "loophole."
About 40% steal their guns. A large number more have the gun given to them by another criminal (who might well have passed a background check at some point; many do). Many actually do pass background checks, such are the failings of that system, and we've seen high-profile examples of mass-murderers that should not have but did. The problem of straw-purchases is significant, but we already have a federal law against that practice.
A huge percentage, I believe from my own experience, are transferred by gun-running gangs. I used to have a lot of friends in a well-known biker gang, and I could literally get my hands on everything from Laos rockets to grenades to any sort of firearm you can imagine, all cheap, and all illegal. Much of this weaponry was "lifted" from the military by gang-connected military insiders. I know this first-hand. But how "traceable" is that sort of flow? Not very, because the military does NOT maintain the sort of granular record-keeping over every grenade, etc. that we wish it did!
Guns are brought in from other countries. How many? We don't know, but we do know that they come in in significant quantities. The gang I knew had a significant pipeline from Mexico.
The point is that perps are almost entirely NOT getting their guns through channels that can in principle be MORE regulated by laws. There are lots and lots of illegal guns, and there always will be. That is just a plain fact, and no amount of totalitarian gun control, no matter how rigorously enforced, is going to stop or even significantly reduce that fact. And the number of LEGAL guns bears almost no relation to that fact. By definition the illegal guns are black-market, and the black-market cannot be stopped or even significantly dented!
They are made, with full knowledge that some are going to them.
As is alcohol, in the full knowledge that many are going to abuse it, and some (far too many) will kill others BECAUSE of their abuse of it. "Please drink responsibly" is flat-out LAME, when companies see the carnage (not to mention broken homes, damage just short of death, lost productivity, and on and on) that results from the sweeping misuse of their product!
So, should Coors be sued every time somebody drinks a sixer and then drives? What about drinking a sixer and then beating the wife and/or kids?
We tried Prohibition, and it was worse than a disaster. We've tried a "war on drugs," and it is MUCH worse than a disaster.
The "circulation" of a product is NOT the manufacturer's fault, and the misuse of that product is NOT the manufacturer's fault. People make decisions about how to use a product, and the vast majority of people use products legally and responsibly. But the PEOPLE using a product are the ones that must be held accountable for their misuse of a product that has legitimate uses when used correctly and legally.
Drives sales of guns to the fearful of those with guns you see.
I'm not sure what that line means, but it looks like the "fearful" meme again. If so, it contributes nothing to a serious discussion. Unless you want to start emphasizing that those who wear seatbelts "live in fear of an accident."
I don't "live in fear," but I do carry a gun every day. I also wear a seatbelt, purchase various sorts of insurance, etc. It's all an odds game, and the things we "protect against" in general have very, very low odds of happening to us. I have flood insurance, which is not an insignificant cost, yet, given where it's located, my home will almost certainly never be flooded. I carry a gun and train with it regularly, yet I will almost certainly never need to shoot anybody.
This has nothing to do with being "fearful."
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 14, 2018 - 02:08pm PT
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Either fearful or have a gun fetish, your choice Richard.
Well, it's impossible to have a serious conversation with somebody who issues such a false dichotomy as if it's fact.
Since false dichotomy and false analogy (that you continue to defend, despite the fact that not a single corollary exists) are the foundation of the "discussion," I choose not to keep playing with you.
Gun-controllers will continue to bark up the wrong tree. Fortunately, most Americans aren't buying it. You may get more universal background checks, but most Americans won't stand for arbitrary limitations that obviously are only effective (and punitive) relative to law-abiding citizens.
And the idea that the 2nd amendment is going to be substantive changed or entirely go away is a distant pipe-dream.
First, Americans are very suspicious of meddling with the constitution, particularly in this highly-divided, hyper-politicized era.
Second, the process is actually extremely difficult, more than people really wrap their wishful minds around.
Third, even if you could accomplish amending or eliminating the 2nd amendment, you'd only open the logical space for Congress to act legislatively, and good luck with that (as we see on this very subject)!
Fourth, all you'd then accomplish is to criminalize a HUGE swath of America, and sweeping civil disobedience would then take deep root (as it did during Prohibition and now regarding drugs), and you'd simultaneously accomplish nothing of substance toward solving the real problems of inner-city violence and random nut-jobs.
Finally, you would not have TOUCHED the actual right that the 2nd amendment references. That amendment does not grant a right; it references a pre-existing inalienable one. So, you'd have to also sweepingly change the culture's perspective of individual rights, as well as convince the modified culture that the "tyranny of the SCOTUS" is a better governmental model than an actual constitution with fixed meanings that are anchored in the original intentions of those that wrote and ratified the constitution.
The left is making some progress on the latter point, as it has pretty well succeeded in entirely conflating negative and positive rights. And it MIGHT, given enough time, EVENTUALLY accomplish all of this. But I'll be long gone by then.
So, 'nuff said. Good luck with all of the above.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 14, 2018 - 02:35pm PT
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Seatbelts are not used to murder other human beings either.
No, but cars and vans are. Furthermore, neither is my gun. Nor are the guns of the vast, vast majority of gun owners.
Alcohol creates vastly more carnage than guns. And you can't give a DUI abuser a pass, like, "It was just a mistake, not really 'murder,'" when the effects of alcohol are so well known that drinking a sixer and climbing behind the wheel is literally tantamount to shooting off a loaded gun in random directions in public.
Worse, the very act of drinking "irresponsibly" itself impairs the "responsibility center" of the brain, so that the phrase virtually amounts to a tautology. The only way to "drink responsibly" is to drink only around NON-drinkers who can ensure that you don't behave badly.
But nobody advocates 25-to-life for first-offense DUI offenders on the basis of "attempted murder." Yet, I quote from an attorney who specializes in murder-defense, who writes: "In Colorado, you are guilty of the crime of attempted murder when you knowingly engage in conduct which creates a grave risk of death."
That is precisely what a DUI person does. Precisely.
Yet, nobody is advocating for class-action lawsuits against Coors.
Nobody is arguing, "You can walk into any liquor store and buy CASES of alcohol, as much as you can afford, with no background check. That's INSANE!"
Nobody is noting that a multiple DUI offender is not in any way precluded from purchasing as much alcohol as s/he wants, despite having PROVEN his/her inability to be responsible with the substance. S/he simply produces State-issued ID showing proof of age (not even a drivers license is required; it might have been revoked), and if s/he is 21 or older, there are no limits.
Nobody is saying, "Who could possibly need a whole six pack? No single person should be able to purchase a 'magazine size' over three units. No responsible person could possibly need that much alcohol, and there is no GOOD use for it!"
Yet, unlike with guns and ammunition, the above statements are all true regarding alcohol.
The obvious point (that most Americans understand) is that we KNOW that for any product, a tiny minority of people cannot be trusted with it! We don't penalize the majority because of that fact. We don't punish the law-abiding, even when the carnage is vast, as it is in the case of alcohol abuse.
You drink and climb behind the wheel, and you are literally shooting off a gun in public, while "hoping" that you don't hit anybody. But NOBODY has a national discussion in those terms.
In contrast with cars AND guns, alcohol has exactly zero compelling public interest. Nobody has a pressing need for or inalienable right to alcohol consumption. Yet we accept the vast carnage caused by those that misuse it. And there are NO threads on Supertopo nor panties in a bunch over that carnage.
Go figure.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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May 14, 2018 - 02:49pm PT
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Edward asks about the high school shooting survivors who spoke out against gun violence
Was he (NRA Pres Oliver North) talking about all of the survivors? Or just the "I want my 15 minutes" brown shirts?
Edward, it seems you are, again, historically confused....
which one of the Marjory Stoneman high school kids are you referring to as a "Nazi"?
"Brown Shirts"-functioned as the original paramilitary wing of the Nazi Party
what 1930's Nazi quality do you see in those 16 year olds, Edward?
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 14, 2018 - 03:00pm PT
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The Trump/Hitler picture is based on fact
The Obama picture is based on hate.
next question
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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May 14, 2018 - 03:20pm PT
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If these are acceptable...
Is this okay?
I fully support your right to exercise your constitutional rights although
you're an apologist if not a collaborator for those who would remove them. If the Deplorable shoe fits...
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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May 14, 2018 - 03:23pm PT
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Tut,there is no winning argument with the bolting madman.
I will say “gun show loophole notwithstanding”.
I know almost everyone west of Ohio thinks New York and the northeast are covered with liberals, but few realize most every civilian and military firearm were manufactured here.
You can’t swing a Remington without hitting a gun show in our area.
How do you think the major cities in the region get their guns,certainly not at Dick’s.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 14, 2018 - 03:49pm PT
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Comparison's to alcohol or cars are a straw man because the express purpose of the item/substance is not to kill other people. The express purpose of alcoholic beverages originally was as a food source (fermenting is a preservative process that makes the beverage keep) as well cars are essential transportation not designed to kill.
That's not actually a "straw man," even if things were working as you say. It would be a false analogy.
By your logic, then, comparing guns to candy is fallacious BECAUSE the express purpose of candy is not to kill, and the express purpose of guns is not to taste good. So, by your lights, unless the express purpose is exactly the same, it's a bad analogy.
The analogy between guns and alcohol revolves around usage (your candy analogy doesn't even have that!), and guns most certainly can be used to not kill. In fact, the vast majority of the time that a person is shot (even in war with military-grade weapons), they don't die.
The ACTUAL express purpose of a gun, and the reason they are most widely used by LEOs, the military, and individuals is to stop a threat, and that usually without actually killing the threat. Period.
And that actual expressly designed intention is a completely legitimate purpose that is both enshrined in our constitution and based upon inalienable rights.
So, your claim that guns are expressly designed to kill is false, both by intended usage and by actual outcomes.
Guns can kill, but so can cars, and so can alcohol. For all devices/substances, if the intended goal can be achieved without anybody dying, so much the better! And regarding guns, cars, and alcohol, illegitimate death results ONLY when the device/substance is MISused. Of course, the responsibility for MISuse (and bad intentions) resides 100% in people, not in the devices/substances themselves.
If you insist that "there are too many guns, and they are too easy for bad people to get," then you should (as a doctor, I would think) be QUICK to both grant my analogy and agree: "There's too much alcohol, and it's too easy for bad people to get." Its original use-case is no longer needed today (same claim as made about guns), and it has NO necessary use-case today (the same cannot be said about guns).
BTW, if you insist on pejorative language, such as "gun fetish," etc., you are merely revealing your own inability to simply discuss the arguments on their merits. I'm not calling you names, impugning your motives, or psych-babbling you. I'd appreciate it if you'd treat me with the same basic respect.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 14, 2018 - 04:16pm PT
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But, you know, let's cut to the chase.
Imagine that you could legislate anything you wanted. I hear the phrase "common sense gun control" bandied about a lot, but it seems to mean very different things to different people. So, whatever it is, it doesn't seem to be all that "common."
But you have your own beliefs, and I'm sure that I don't understand the nuances of them. So, what does "common sense gun control" mean to you?
I might even surprise you that I'd agree with some or many of your ideas. My goal is to side-step inflammatory, meme-based, pejorative verbiage and get clear on the substance of the ideology.
For example, I don't believe in ANY loopholes for gun-transfers. If you want to transfer ownership of a gun (sale, gift, will, etc.), then the person you're transferring to must pass the same background check as if s/he purchased from Cabelas or Walmart, etc. Even though this closing of loophole will probably at best stop less than 10% of transfers that are questionable, whatever it stops, it stops. The main point to me is that there shouldn't be exceptions to the rule.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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May 14, 2018 - 06:55pm PT
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Thanks for all the telling replies.
Nothing quite like bigots trying to justify their hateful bigotry.
Carry on.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 14, 2018 - 07:25pm PT
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^^^ Lame troll.
A successful troll-post has to have a baseline of plausibility. That was a fail. Try again.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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May 15, 2018 - 06:30am PT
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I'm with you, Madbolter, on this one. Very few people want to acknowledge or discuss in anyway the facts as we know them or deal with the political realities. It is clear that many on the Left would like to repeal the 2nd Amend. Okay, fine. Get busy. At best, this would be a decades long effort with, probably, zero chance of success. What do you need, 2/3 of the legislature and 3/4 of the states? Not going to happen. That's just a political reality. So, what's the next thing? What policy, law, whatever can we enact that will actually do something? In the case of the Florida psycho, there were plenty of these in place--including DIRECT CALLS TO LAW ENFORCEMENT about the danger of the jackass--yet all these failed, not to mention chicken sh*t cops. So what law should have been passed to prevent this one from happening? One of the worst mass murders in American history was perpetrated with a can of gasoline and a match. How do we regulate those? There is a huge difference between passing a law and saying There! We DID something, and actually changing what happens in the world. Politicians are fond of this line of "action," but it often leads to nowhere--and often does more damage.
For sure there could be better data sharing and access. That would be a reasonable start. And folks could do their stinkin' jobs.
BAd
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goatboy smellz
climber
Gulf Breeze
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May 15, 2018 - 09:20am PT
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^^^ Activist investors are very important in changing the ways a company does business.
Stomp your feet and protest all you want but own leverage in a company and they will listen to what you have to say.
Banning never solved a problem and as a progressive I really wish the extremists on the left would just forget about it. It didn't work for alcohol, weed or abortions for the conservatives and it will never work with firearms for the liberals. Let them have their guns and the family bible and they will have to come up with another reason to hate liberals. But take those two points away from talk radio and the next generation will hopefully find more common ground.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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May 15, 2018 - 09:39am PT
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What kind of banning? I think most people agree banning felon gun ownership and full auto for civilian is common sense. Well not some here.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 15, 2018 - 10:17am PT
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Really good ideas, guys, imo.
I honestly do think that if both "sides" can get beyond political posturing, there are lots of ways that we can have a real effect on the flow of guns.
So called "smart gun" technology isn't ready for prime time yet, but that path holds promise and is worth some serious investment, imo. It has to be something that instantly and ALWAYS works, while being something that ALWAYS locks out the non-owner. Finger/thumbprint doesn't seem to be the way. I don't know; not my area. But surely there's some smart engineer out there who could change the world!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 15, 2018 - 10:54am PT
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And can we re-visit Switzerland with its many guns but little gun crime?
If yer not coocoo having a military automatic weapon in yer house is NBD.
‘When guns are outlawed only coocoos will have guns.’
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goatboy smellz
climber
Gulf Breeze
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May 15, 2018 - 11:09am PT
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monolith
What kind of banning? I think most people agree banning felon gun ownership and full auto for civilian is common sense. Well not some here
Doesn't matter.
You think a felon cares they are breaking the law again by own an illegal weapon?
In some neighborhoods they have no choice, they can't call the police because they do not respond, try calling 911 in Detroit, Memphis, or Buford WY when you are in danger and see how fast help arrives.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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May 15, 2018 - 11:14am PT
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monolith
What kind of banning?
Gun banning.
Dianne Feinstein, U.S. Senator from California
“Banning guns addresses a fundamental right of all Americans to feel safe.”
“The National Guard fulfills the militia mentioned in the Second amendment. Citizens no longer need to protect the states or themselves.”
Frank Lautenberg, U.S. Senator from New Jersey
“We have other legislation that all of you are aware that I have been so active on, with my colleagues here, and that is to shut down the gun shows.”
Howard Metzenbaum, former U.S. Senator
“No, we’re not looking at how to control criminals … we’re talking about banning the AK-47 and semi-automatic guns.”
Charles Pashayan, U.S. Representative from California
“All of this has to be understood as part of a process leading ultimately to a treaty that will give an international body power over our domestic laws.”
Pete Stark, U.S. Representative from California
“If a bill to ban handguns came to the house floor, I would vote for it.”
William Clay, U.S. Representative from Missouri
” …we need much stricter gun control, and eventually should bar the ownership of handguns”
Joseph Biden, Vice President of the United States
“Banning guns is an idea whose time has come.”
John Chafee, Former U.S. Senator from Rhode Island
“I shortly will introduce legislation banning the sale, manufacture or possession of handguns (with exceptions for law enforcement and licensed target clubs)… . It is time to act. We cannot go on like this. Ban them!”
Major Owens, U.S. Representative from New York
“We have to start with a ban on the manufacturing and import of handguns. From there we register the guns which are currently owned, and follow that with additional bans and acquisitions of handguns and rifles with no sporting purpose.”
Bobby Rush, U.S. Representative from Illinois
“My staff and I right now are working on a comprehensive gun-control bill. We don’t have all the details, but for instance, regulating the sale and purchase of bullets. Ultimately, I would like to see the manufacture and possession of handguns banned except for military and police use. But that’s the endgame. And in the meantime, there are some specific things that we can do with legislation.”
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 15, 2018 - 11:18am PT
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Goatboy is right. I do my politicking by buying a few shares and speaking my mind at shareholders meetings.
Of course one can always start a thread about how this country's oldest civil rights organization is intent on terrorism. Sure,.... that will convince a lot of people.
I'd love to hang and jaw about it but I have a new Sig Rattler in .300 BLK to sight in.
edit; kingtut research Archduke Ferdinand.
Didn't shoot up the countryside? Hell, no whiskey tango meth head ever crossed the country with 2 trains, the first with him shooting every animal in sight while being handed freshly loaded rifles, and the second with people to collect his "trophies" (and compensate farmers!!)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 15, 2018 - 11:28am PT
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is utterly foreign to anyone in the central European countries.
Yeah, as was the notion of a constitutional republic prior to the founding of the United States.
I'm SO glad that the USA is not yet just another European socialist democracy.
It's coming, but hopefully long after I'm gone.
Meanwhile, pointing to Europe as an example of how to be is a non-starter in my mind. Must be nice to be a member of NATO and have the USA carry the vast majority of the weight!
Just imagine what their economies would be like if they had to actually pay for real national defense. Same with Canada. What if the USA withdrew entirely from NATO and said, "We're done with paying your way. If you don't want to be overrun by Germany (again) or the new Soviets, then you'd best get serious about national defense again."
The USA makes it easy for these other nations to pretend that their perspectives are economically sustainable.
The above is not really thread-drift, because these policies and perspectives are deeply interrelated. The "nanny state" mentality (including perspectives on the government being a good proxy for self-defense) is only as sustainable as it is economically sustainable.
In the USA we can still pretend that it "could" be viable. But Europe and Canada are living in a fantasy-land that we've helped create.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 15, 2018 - 12:01pm PT
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^^^ LOL
Wow, were you spitting as you wrote that.
Look it up. NATO is paid for by the USA. Europe and Canada haven't pulled their military weight during our lifetimes.
And that breeds a "nanny state" mentality.
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Todd Eastman
Social climber
Putney, VT
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May 15, 2018 - 02:13pm PT
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If the US wants NATO, the US needs to pay for NATO...
If the US doesn't want to play by that, Russia will step into the void left by Trump's foolish attempts at policy...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 15, 2018 - 02:56pm PT
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^^^ Fail.
There are objective facts. Live within those, and our discussions have a hope of being productive.
But you perpetually devolve into personal attacks a wild speculations about my motives, character, sanity, etc.
Facts are facts. The USA almost single-handedly sustains NATO, and that at vast, vast expense to us.
There are pros and cons to that commitment, but the fact remains that Europe and Canada have US-propped-up economies that enable a nanny-state approach that we're significantly paying for. Let them pay for their own national defense in-toto, and you'd see a sudden and significant scale-back of socialist policies.
No worries, though. We've got your back. (And front.)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 15, 2018 - 04:20pm PT
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Now if you're a peace loving hippy who trusts in the good will of men, well, NATO is a front for the world's greatest arms merchants. Which it is.
Absolutely!
Perhaps we could all get on the same page about the idea that the US MIC should be cut in half, we should not longer be policeman to the world, we should abandon in-toto the sick manifest destiny crap, and then spend a decade or two enduring the pain of the "reset" that this would introduce.
In the end, we'd come out of it far more economically healthy, and the the NATO countries could learn again what it is to pay their own freight.
Of course, nobody can (live long enough to) become president (or even powerful senator) with that agenda.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 15, 2018 - 04:22pm PT
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ginning you up to hate others
Ah, and there it is again. The forever liberal punt: "ANY ideas I don't like are hate speech."
Nothing more to say to you. You insist on personal attacks, and I won't play your game.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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May 15, 2018 - 04:48pm PT
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Well said Dingus.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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May 15, 2018 - 04:55pm PT
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^^^^"Objective Facts" a "Nanny State"???
ROFL do you even know what the word "objective" means?
Describing something as a "Nanny State" is purely subjective opinion. You believe what you want to believe as you have never lived there yourself, have you? Don't knock it till you have LIVED it.
And WHY pray tell, would we do that?
Because it is a GIGANTIC WELFARE SUBSIDY TO OUR OWN MIC THAT'S WHY AND GOOD FOR US TO HAVE OTHERS CONTAIN THE SOVIETS/RUSSIA WITH THEIR SOIL AND OUR BASES THERE.
FFS its like talking to a child that listens to Rush Limbaugh.
We support NATO because it helps our MIC to be more powerful than any other on Earth and increases American Hegemony. If the Europeans "carried their weight" like your RW propaganda tells you they should they would be a threat to our world dominance and military might.
Classic RW talking out of both sides of their mouths to criticize Europe when it actually benefits the MIC that they love.
And guess what Richard: You didn't come up with that criticism of NATO on your own. Smarter men told you to think that because they get rich ginning you up to hate others and keeping you from thinking about what they really are doing: Looting the Treasury for the MIC's profit.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 15, 2018 - 07:16pm PT
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Sure love me a good objective unemotional discussion.
Since I skipped third grade now I know what it musta been like -
like second grade but with two syllable vitriol.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 15, 2018 - 11:45pm PT
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I think we will come to better understand the sine wave of reality respects no man's opinion.
There's probably more truth to that then my idealism would like to admit.
Sigh.
So, I guess that we all should just buckle down and get to paying more taxes, so that we can keep the MIC afloat. I can think of better uses for our money. But, then, what do "we the people" have to say about it?
Now you've just got me all depressed, DMT. Thanks a lot.
;-)
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 16, 2018 - 01:14am PT
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madbolter1,
I admire your persistence in trying to maintain a discussion based on fact and rational arguments, but the title of this thread reflects disinterest in convincing those with whom they disagree. I've come to the reluctant conclusion that we waste our time responding to that sort of hyperbole. Facts and logic have little effect in such an environment.
Quite simply, titles like that of this thread don't invite consensus. They invite war. Maybe we need to call out that sort of rhetoric before we attempt to present arguments on the merits.
You deserve credit for eliciting some intelligent responses, but it took an enormous amount of effort to get a bit of wheat from a mountain of chaff. Nonetheless, thank you for trying.
John
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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May 16, 2018 - 06:17am PT
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+1,000, John. Yep. Yep.
BAd
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 16, 2018 - 08:36am PT
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Thank you, John.
It does seem that many people who start out with hard lines and inflammatory language are actually willing to engage in discussion. In general, people on this thread have been willing to dialog, which has been quite refreshing to me and worth my time.
I continue to hope that we're not nearly as divided in this country as rhetoric makes it initially seem.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 18, 2018 - 09:36am PT
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$40 Million of Russian money funneled through the NRA for 2016 election??
The NRA is a sponsor of terror
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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May 18, 2018 - 09:38am PT
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Lots of thoughts and prayers being offered. unfortunately that has proven highly ineffective
Given an American religiopolitical reality, that's only proof that more guns, thoughts and prayers are needed... Is that true? Is that insensitive?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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May 18, 2018 - 09:39am PT
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Go back to sleep fry, you're hallucinating.
The current shooting (again) shows the need to protect our children anyway possible.
Courtrooms are safe because guns are not allowed there. This is done by arming the individuals that would protect against those wishing to harm defendants or judges.
We need to show our children the same care.
It's difficult for the left to recognize that this is what it has come to but, it is the reality.
Our schools need armed gaurds.
edit:
Our schools need trained armed gaurds that will not run and hide.
Veterans can do this.
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Topic Author's Reply - May 18, 2018 - 09:59am PT
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This is not a world I would chose to bring children into. The idea of my kid being slaughtered like a lamb by gun toting morons is unbearable. I am glad that both of my adopted children are grown and were not affected by this latest tragic trend of violence towards children.
With only one grandchild left in public school I worry for his safety. I wish my daughter would homeschool him but she is headstrong and a career woman, and would not listen to me anyway.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 18, 2018 - 10:27am PT
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The NRA accepted money from the Russians. Yet, the god, guns, and guts crowd continues to back them anyway.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 18, 2018 - 12:11pm PT
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Yet again, everyone wants to solve the problem without paying. The left wants to make illegal use of firearms more illegal. the right wants to get free guard service from teachers.
As pud points out, we haven't had the same carnage in courtrooms that we have in schools because we decided to protect courtrooms with metal detectors and armed bailiffs. This came about as a direct result of the George Jackson fiasco in the 1970's. Judges and lawyers didn't argue for gun control. They protected themselves.
Don't our children deserve to learn in an environment at least as safe as that we provide judges and lawyers? Sorry, but that costs money.
It would probably help if the media didn't make each school shooting more sensational than the last, but "If it bleeds, it leads" seems unlikely to disappear any time soon. In the meantime, we need to protect our schools the way we protect our courts. If I have to pay some more in taxes to achieve that, so be it.
John
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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May 18, 2018 - 01:21pm PT
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Send your kids to schools where whitey don't exist and your kids will be fine.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 18, 2018 - 01:38pm PT
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As far as gun control goes at the every least we should:
Have a federal law for universal background checks (no more private or gun show sales without a background check in any state).
Have a federal red flag law (in every state).
Make it a federal crime to provide a gun to someone who shouldn't have one, with varying degrees of punishment (e.g. a parent who doesn't lock up their guns and their kid kills someone doesn't get the same punishment as someone who knowingly provides a gun to someone who can't pass a background check).
And just as important as gun control IMO is improving the mental health aspect. I'd rather pay for more counselors to talk to all kids regularly and get them help than pay for armed guards. We should track people who may be violent and make sure that shows up on background checks, it's a fine line to walk to not infringe on someone's rights, but as mentioned red flags laws are good for this, I'd rather temporarily take away someone's right to buy legally possess firearms, than see kids die.
Perform national education and outreach on all of the above.
The thing that drives me crazy is the NRA won't allow any new gun control. At least now the CDC can do research on the problem (which they fought). I'm a gun owner and believe in the right to own many types of guns, but I'm okay with background checks waiting periods, mandatory training for certain types of guns, restrictions on where you can legally possess certain types of guns, etc. But we haven't really done anything to try to improve the situation, and not only is the NRA preventing it, they are turning this into another part of the culture wars, where so many on the right think the left wants to take away all guns or repeal the second amendment, spoiler alert that's not happening. Most people just want reasonable gun control and to at least try to do something.
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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May 18, 2018 - 01:39pm PT
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Send your kids to schools where whitey don't exist and your kids will be fine. interesting that I don't hear of
Native Americans, Blacks, or, illegal immigrants committing mass school shootings, hmm.
edit: I see that leazarian is using trump's talking point. if you don't like the message, shoot the messenger.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 18, 2018 - 01:44pm PT
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I saw Dave Chappelle live recently and he did a great bit on school shootings. And how he wasn't too worried about his kids because the mass shooters tend to be overwhelmingly white, or something like that.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 18, 2018 - 01:54pm PT
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A school is not a Court House surrounded with police
Any gunman can shoot the armed guard first and then go on to shoot students after the coast is clear
The whole idea of a gunman is that they shoot people by surprise
What happens when the armed guard shoots a student by accident, or because he's mad, or he has his gun taken from him by a student
So this idea of arming the school is a bad one
AND, the students don't want Armed Guards or teachers with guns at their school
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Roots
Mountain climber
Redmond, Oregon
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May 18, 2018 - 01:59pm PT
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The suspect had a shotgun and a .38-caliber revolver
An "assault" weapons ban would not have changed this scenario...
Obama and Biden encouraged Americans to own shotguns.
Seems to me that everyone is looking in the wrong direction.....
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monolith
climber
state of being
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May 18, 2018 - 02:03pm PT
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Fine, let the shooters use shotguns and revolvers. The cops would rather deal with them than be up against the high capacity, rapid fire, assault weapons.
I wonder what the death and injury toll would have been had he used an assault weapon?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 18, 2018 - 02:12pm PT
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edit: I see that leazarian is using trump's talking point. if you don't like the message, shoot the messenger.
I'm sorry, but I don't follow. Which messenger did I shoot?
And Craig, doesn't your argument imply that all the courthouse security I've lived with for decades is useless, because someone could just blast their way through?
My position comes from reality. In the United States, gun control has not reduced gun violence (although I note that gun violence has been trending lower over time for decades). Sure, I hate the idea of going through a metal detector to go to school, but if you want to reduce these sorts of incidents, I see no better option.
I also note that after Oklahoma City, every federal building suddenly became harder to enter, and harder to park near. The idea that we can make our schools safer merely by passing laws, rather than taking action that actively protects them, strikes me as both unrealistic and dishonest.
John
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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May 18, 2018 - 02:40pm PT
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It is disingenuous to say the US has gun control today. We have the facade of it with loop holes and intentional limitations (background checks are not allowed to be computerized for example).
I'll take the Australia model please. Make guns really hard to get, and buy back as many that are out there in the first place. The aussies have drastically cut the number of mass shooting deaths per capita compared to before they made the change, and continue to be lower than the US by a mile.
I am on the left end of things, and no I don't want to ban all gun ownership. I want to see guns tightly regulated. Most guns should be kept at a carefully regulated firing range or hunting clubs. Most households do not need guns to be stored there.
The overall violent crime rate is way down form 30-40 years back, but the white paranoia and gun fetishism is way up. Most other civilized countries have figured out that tight gun control cuts mass shootings and suicide rates, and I hope someday we will too.
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HoMan
Trad climber
Wasteville,CA
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May 18, 2018 - 02:42pm PT
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Fine, let the shooters use shotguns and revolvers. The cops would rather deal with them than be up against the high capacity, rapid fire, assault weapons.
I wonder what the death and injury toll would have been had he used an assault weapon?
You wonder? More sound logic from Monolick. An acceptable amount of death for you as long as no assault weapons were used.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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May 18, 2018 - 02:48pm PT
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I'd rather reduce deaths and injury from all types of guns, but you got to start somewhere, and the low hanging fruit is tighter control on assault weapons. Sheesh!
And, yes, I think it's better to have less killed and injured in mass shooting incident than more, and make it easier on the cops to save lives. Duh!
BTW, luvin the name calling.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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May 18, 2018 - 03:12pm PT
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wonder what caused this kid's meltdown?
That’s easy.White kid.
Troubled youth just exercising his second amendment rights.
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WBraun
climber
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May 18, 2018 - 03:17pm PT
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monolith
He can call you any name he wants since you're an anonymous coward tool ......
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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May 18, 2018 - 03:43pm PT
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Kingtut wants a maximum of 6 rounds in weapons. The Texas shooter had just that in his revolver. Just another uninformed reactionary.
The individual(s) that made the weapons available to the Texas shooter are responsible for this tragedy as well. They need to be held accountable.
Schools today are unsafe and old liberals like Craig Fry want to ignore it and pine for the good ol' days at he expense of common sense measures to keep up with the times.
I have 2 children in Grade School and 2 in high school.
They all want a safe environment to learn and if that means metal detectors and armed guards they support it.
I don't know how many kids Craig Fry polled for his assertion that children don't want this but, he is wrong.
Find a way to have armed, trained veterans protect our schools. Find a way to pay for this.
These are the issues we need to be discussing.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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May 18, 2018 - 04:04pm PT
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How many would he have killed and wounded with a 30 round capacity gun, Pud?
5x more reloading gives people more opportunity to take him out.
WB, hello little buddy.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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May 18, 2018 - 04:14pm PT
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5x more reloading gives people more opportunity to take him out.
A person with a gun doesn't have to wait for the goblin to reload before he can fight back.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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May 18, 2018 - 04:17pm PT
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Huh?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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May 18, 2018 - 04:41pm PT
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Bro? Not likely.
Make schools safer with appropriate protections. Common sense.
Taking weapons away from responsible gun owners is not only an inappropriate response to this problem, it is not going to happen.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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May 18, 2018 - 06:02pm PT
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He had only 6 rounds in the magazine which GREATLY REDUCED the number he murdered
Um, revolvers don't have magazines--they have cylinders.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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May 18, 2018 - 06:13pm PT
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I don't have a timeline for the shootings, but the "school resource officer" aka cop, was critically injured by the shooter.
This must mean we need more than one cop at schools, most likely a squad of brave cops, who won't avoid a shooter, & smart cops, who won't shoot innocent people, like armed teachers, in a panic situation.
I'm still an advocate of arming students who are on teams, have parents with a police or military background, or are in para-military campus clubs like ROTC, Boy Scouts, or Young Republicans.
It would save lots of money & Gawd knows, Republicans hate taxes.
After all, what could go rong?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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May 18, 2018 - 06:30pm PT
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Look at you and how you cling to your guns despite the carnage our lax laws wreck daily in America. Happy fapping to your shootin' iron, bro.
Common sense is not selling guns to every f*#king idiot that wants to play Rambo, like you. The stronger your desire to have one is only evidence on how you shouldn't be trusted with one.
You're a real badass behind a keyboard.
My right to bear arms is not your decision to make.
You're so easily triggered, it's quite obvious who's the one that needs to stay away from firearms.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 18, 2018 - 06:36pm PT
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When we began the security checks at U.S. airports, the worlds experts, the Israelis told us that mass checking doesn't work, you have to have trained people looking out for certain signs that someone is up to something. You need to target people who act and look a certain way. I have seen at least a hundred people outside of LAX at the SW terminal, just standing on the curb. If a person came by with an automatic weapon, he could mow them down, and all the security inside would make no difference.
In this case, the boy was hiding a shot gun and a hand gun inside his trench coat. In Texas, it should be quite warm by mid-May, so a trench coat would be very suspicious and out of place.
Still, these events are hard to stop. Even if the schools were secure, a mass shooting could easily be done in the morning, while a large number of children are entering a school, outside of the school, near the curb.
Court rooms are relatively easy to secure, as you really need a reason to be there.
These kinds of killings fall into a category that the FBI calls, "One perpetrator, multiple victims" They account for only about 6% of all homicides in a given year. Most murders are one-on-one crimes of passion, where the people know each other well. The most common category is men killing their wives and girlfriends. On average, we have a homicide about every 35 minutes in the U.S. But few of them make the national news.
As horrific as these mass killings in crowded places are, there is no way we can secure all these schools, shopping malls, outdoor concert venues, etc. If you compare the homicide rates today with those in 1980, they have gone down quite a lot.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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May 18, 2018 - 06:43pm PT
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How about the D-bag Trumpie that thought it was a good idea to parade around in front the mass murder sight with his Trump hat, ‘Merican flag and gun today. That is the sort of people we are dealing with.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 18, 2018 - 06:50pm PT
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A person with a gun doesn't have to wait for the goblin to reload before he can fight back.
Chaz, libs like monolith have this fantasy-land of a school in which cowering, unarmed teachers are thinking: "Wait for it. Wait for it. THERE! He's reloading, so we have about 2 seconds to rush him! Who's with me!?!"
Yeah, right. The "gun free" zones are NOTHING but target-rich zones, and when you entirely disarm law-abiding people in such zones, you force upon them ONLY the terrible choice to be outright victims or engage in such foolish "thinking" as the fantasy-land scenario above.
The only gun-free zones should be those in which police and metal detectors, perhaps even pat-downs, virtually guarantee that there are in fact no guns in the zone. If a criminal can trivially get guns into the "gun free zone," as we've seen again and again, then it is NOT a gun-free zone, and citizen's therefore have the inalienable right to be armed there if they choose to be.
Or, we could just issue mini-bats, as has already been done in liberal fantasy-lands: "Wait for it. Wait for it. THERE! He's reloading, so we have 2 seconds to rush him with our mini-bats and give him a good whopping! Oh, what a headache we can give him if we're lucky! Who's with me!?!"
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WBraun
climber
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May 18, 2018 - 06:51pm PT
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Monolith is a nutcase projectionist ......
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 18, 2018 - 06:53pm PT
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If a person came by with an automatic weapon, he could mow them down, and all the security inside would make no difference.
I'm actually very surprised that there have not been bombings in the massive TSA lines. And then you need checkpoints around the checkpoint, and so on.
If a nut-job decides to shoot or burn or bomb or mow-over-with-van a pile of people, it is usually the sort of event that you get little or no advance warning about.
To me the greatest tragedies are when those events had LOTS of advance warning... that was ignored by the very police-state that liberals here want us all to proxy off our entire self-defense to.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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May 18, 2018 - 06:56pm PT
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“Make America great again,” the man, who was wearing a Trump hat, said when a reporter asked him what was going through his head when he found out that another school shooting had occurred.
He says he was “offering support because ‘God bless you’ would go a long ways right now for a lot of people.”
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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May 18, 2018 - 06:57pm PT
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Another man felt that the guy was an absolute dumbshit moron for bringing a gun to a school shooting scene, but he also feels that prayers are the way to fix the repeat issue of mass shootings in our country.
“We need prayers,” the other man said.
YES - THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS ARE THE ANSWER !
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 18, 2018 - 07:25pm PT
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My kids schools each have outdoor corridors and about 40 doors. Are we going to hire 40 armed guards to protect them? Or 40 metal detectors?
Oh sure we could build a tall barbed wire fence around the whole school and have one entrance, with a 30 minute wait to use the metal detector.
Or let's make sure everyone is armed. Hey that's what some people feel makes them safer. Never mind the statistics that show that people who concealed carry are actually more likely to get shot. Probably thru more risk taking and things they probably could have deescalated through talking.
Other countries do have much stricter gun laws and far fewer gun related deaths, both inner city murders and mass shootings. America has very lenient gun laws and very high rates of shootings. I don't think we need to be as strict as other countries, but I do think we need better gun control and that would reduce gun deaths.
I don't think we should throw out the 2nd amendment, and even if we did there are many millions of guns already out there. But we can do a lot better to keep them out of the hands of the wrong people. And to the people who whine about making them take background checks, or making it tougher, though still legal, to get higher capacity weapons, or making them lock up their guns, because they are willing to take the risk of carrying a loaded weapon, but don't care that you don't want to have to have to take on the risk and burden, I say I don't care, you are being unreasonable, and we are going to do this without you.
Cripes, even Trump just said we need better gun control. But I'll guess we'll see what happens when the NRA gun manufacturers lobbies congress again. They remind me of the pharmaceutical companies making billions of the opioid crisis. Sure their products are being used by the wrong people and people are dying, but it's making them money so they pressure congress to do nothing about it. Greedy bastards.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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May 18, 2018 - 07:40pm PT
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Other countries do have much stricter gun laws and far fewer gun related deaths, both inner city murders and mass shootings. America has very lenient gun laws and very high rates of shootings. I don't think we need to be as strict as other countries, but I do think we need better gun control and that would reduce gun deaths.
We have the world's highest gun ownership rate by far. There isn't even a close second.
Every single country with a higher murder rate than the U.S. - there are like 80 of them - have more restrictive gun laws than we do.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 18, 2018 - 07:51pm PT
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My kids schools each have outdoor corridors and about 40 doors. Are we going to hire 40 armed guards to protect them? Or 40 metal detectors?
Oh sure we could build a tall barbed wire fence around the whole school and have one entrance, with a 30 minute wait to use the metal detector.
So, what are you saying? The tactical situation is hopeless, so EVERYBODY has to adopt hopelessness and just accept victimhood?
Or let's make sure everyone is armed.
Not one single person is suggesting that. Nobody!
Anti-gunners apparently believe that because an armed citizen can't always solve every problem, it's absolutely pointless for anybody to even have a fighting chance. Or, let's issue mini-bats and call it "arming the teachers." ROFL
I'd prefer ONE cop or armed citizen ONSITE when a school shooting starts, even though that is certainly not a panacea! At least such a person can reasonably expect to adopt some tactics that could work to shorten or even end the carnage. WAY better than mini-bats!
Never mind the statistics that show that people who concealed carry are actually more likely to get shot.
Ah, my favorite line: "statistics show." Okay, I'll play. Highly-interpreted statistics MIGHT show something, but I have no idea what, and I haven't see those statistics. You're not citing them, so is this something like "82.3% of statistics are made up?" Please ante up.
Probably thru more risk taking and things they probably could have deescalated through talking.
Please provide citations rather than speculations. I know quite a few people that carry, and not ONE of us is itching to draw the gun rather than "deescalate!" If you knew anything about the legal entanglements of even drawing, much less shooting, you'd understand HOW reluctant concealed carry holders are to actually produce the weapon.
So, here's an idea for you: You are about 6 to 9 times safer around a concealed carry holder than a cop. I don't see how that stat coheres with the shoot-happy Rambo you are caricaturing.
https://www.dailywire.com/news/8255/report-concealed-carry-permit-holders-are-most-law-aaron-bandler
Various states (Texas, Arizona, etc.) have conducted their own studies that suggest that concealed carry holders commit murder at 1/3 the rate of police officers (both, very tiny numbers).
CCW holders are nothing like you speculate.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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May 18, 2018 - 08:17pm PT
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Just back from Safeway after picking up a few items. The guy in line in front of me was open-carrying his 1911. Early 60s--vibe like a veteran. While I think concealed carry is a better plan, I thanked him for his vigilance. The store was a safer place because he was there.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 18, 2018 - 08:27pm PT
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You know, this latest whack-job shooter was using a really odd-looking AR-15. I've never seen one like that before. Maybe banning "assault weapons" like AR-15s is going to be harder than initially thought.
Oh, and if I'm not mistaken, the shooter was in violation of both State and Federal laws to even possess the gun, being 17 and all. Of course, that may not have mattered much to him, being that he had determined to commit mass-murder, which is also illegal.
You know, just a thought: My guess is that, having crossed over to accepting mass-murder as a pretty good course of action, other gun-control laws just might have felt pretty irrelevant to him.
Now, if we could just ban all those pesky AR-15s, even the really weird-looking ones like this latest shooter used! We've gotta do SOMETHING, and a ban, however irrelevant, sure feels like we're doing SOMETHING. After all, banning something has a long history of working.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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May 18, 2018 - 08:39pm PT
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Bigger gun free zone signs too! This guy must have missed them. Maybe in multiple languages and braille.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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May 18, 2018 - 08:39pm PT
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...and revolvers and an 870 Remington aren't even semi-auto. Oh dear. Sounds like the narrative will have to be revised. Please make sure all parrots, dupes, drones, simpletons, schlemiels, and, of course, loyal Democrats are on board.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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May 18, 2018 - 08:53pm PT
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Dad's guns?
He's gotta be one irresponsible SOB.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 18, 2018 - 09:01pm PT
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Bigger gun free zone signs too!
Oh, you are so right!
My bad for neglecting to mention that important prophylactic!
I'm sure that if he would have KNOWN that it was a gun-free zone, he would have headed over to the park or someplace like that. Bigger signs. Maybe with a really big, red circle surrounding the AR-15 image with a big red line cutting across it.
And CNN gets into the mix by glorifying these whack-jobs and interviewing the kids. Give me a BREAK! The media makes millions on these tragedies, BY making the nut-jobs feel relevant, important, and like they matter.
By stark contrast, it should go one of two ways:
1) "An assailant that will not be named opened fire at an unnamed school today. Ten people were killed, and the assailant is in custody. No more details will be forthcoming. If you are near enough to the tragedy, then you know all you need to know already. If you are not, then you don't need to know, and you certainly don't need to know anything about the shooter, other than that he will be a total zero rotting in a cell until his demise."
2) "An assailant that will not be named opened fire at an unnamed school today. He was almost instantly killed by an armed teacher (plainclothes cop, etc.) before he could do serious harm. If you are near enough to the event, then you already know all you need to know. If not, then you don't need to know more, and we will not reveal any details about the shooter or the school."
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 18, 2018 - 09:04pm PT
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He's gotta be one irresponsible SOB.
I am definitely sympathetic to that sentiment! Seriously.
Suing gun companies is ridiculous, but suing negligent parents is another story entirely. Criminal charges may be in order. And the conviction should make the news as a warning to others that you don't leave your gun laying around for your kid to get!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 18, 2018 - 09:12pm PT
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Fear, now it's my turn to call you out. You forgot another something VERY important: High-capacity "clips" (SIC).
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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May 18, 2018 - 09:24pm PT
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But we can do a lot better to keep them out of the hands of the wrong people.
This begs the question, who are the wrong people?
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nah000
climber
now/here
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May 18, 2018 - 09:45pm PT
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some quick back of the envelope math according to some non-rigorous googling...
~100000 = number of public schools in the u.s.
~$550 billion = total of the state education budgets
~$70 billion = federal education budget
so say $300 000 as a minimum average to properly train and employ staff and run metal detectors, per school, per annum [obv some schools would be far more and some could be done for less]...
works out to $30 billion per year.
or an approximate 5% increase in the state and federal education budgets.
or to put it in perspective: the cost of the iraq war from 2003-2010 is most often accepted to have had a cost in the range of $1.1 trillion or $140 billion per year during those years...
aka: the money is there if this was made a priority.
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WBraun
climber
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May 18, 2018 - 10:14pm PT
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St00pid Americans think they can buy intelligence.
Since materialistic America is clueless to consciousness then they are forced by Providence to suffer the consequences of their st00pid materialistic choices ......
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 18, 2018 - 10:16pm PT
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The countries that have higher murder rates are mainly third world countries in Central and South America, Africa, the Caribbean.
When you like at countries with similar economies like Canada, France, Finland were about about 80 countries ahead of them.
So, what are you saying? The tactical situation is hopeless, so EVERYBODY has to adopt hopelessness and just accept victimhood?
Why ask me what I'm saying if you're going to put words in my mouth. I'm saying it's ridiculous to think we should protect most schools in America with armed guards or metal detectors. For inner city schools that are one big building with one main entrance, in high crime areas, sure it makes sense. But to think we could do that to my town's rural schools is a joke. A shooter with a high power military rifle could kill a single armed guard and then start his rampage. Armed guards are not the answer. I'm not saying they couldn't help, but I think there are far more effective and less expensive ways to address school mass shootings.
Anti-gunners apparently believe that because an armed citizen can't always solve every problem, it's absolutely pointless for anybody to even have a fighting chance.
As I've said over and over I'm a gun owner and personally believe people should be able to own most types of guns available. But they should be better controlled. So I don't know where you get "anti-gunners" when you are addressing my post. The problem is you are willing to sacrifice everyone else's, who doesn't want to carry, safety so it's easy for you to have your "fighting chance". Sorry but you can deal with a few more hoops and still have your fighting chance.
I'm not going to look up the statistics on firearms and safety again with the chance their would fall on deaf ears, if you carry I suggest you look them up yourself because it may give you some insight. I just remember than when I was considering concealed carry a few years ago I did a lot of research on the subject. I can't remember where I saw it but there was a well designed study that showed people who concealed carry were more likely to be shot or killed by gunfire (I can't remember which). They did not have data to determine why that is, but yes speculated that possibly people take greater risks, are less likely to work things out without violence, or maybe they spend time in higher crime areas (or maybe all).
If you knew anything about the legal entanglements of even drawing, much less shooting
Again I looked into concealed carry and researched these very things, so why do you assume I don't know anything?
I don't see how that stat coheres with the shoot-happy Rambo you are caricaturing. I never said anything of the sort. I did basically call out people for being selfish pricks for fighting any new gun control laws so they can easily get the guns they want, while leaving kids in schools and people who don't want to carry out to dry. So if you want to address that point that I actually made, have at it.
You are about 6 to 9 times safer around a concealed carry holder than a cop. No, that link says cops commit crimes 6-9 times more than CCW holders. I'd feel safer around a uniformed cop in a bad neighborhood than a CCW holder.
I looked into the CCW process in California and specifically in my county since it varies. I actually think our process is great (although overly expensive, but that's govt. for ya) and have no problem with CCW. I don't know what it's like in other states. In the CA application you have to show good moral character, good cause, completed a training course, haven't been convicted of a felony, haven't been diagnosed as mentally ill, haven't lost your gun rights, have to be at least 21 years old. I have no problem with CCW if someone passes all that. I actually disagree with the leeway they have by county where some counties are "will issue" if you meet the requirements and some are "may issue", where the sheriff can still deny you just cause they feel like it, that's B.S. What I'd like to see is that type of robust process applied to other firearms like "assault" weapons (you know what I mean, high powered rifles with quickly change magazines), and maybe even a more streamlined process for handguns in general.
CCW holders are nothing like you speculate. It's you who are speculating.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 18, 2018 - 10:19pm PT
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BTW I like all the condescending, passive aggressive statements above. Countdown until those same posters complain about people on the other side not wanting a productive debate..
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 18, 2018 - 10:22pm PT
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I think there are far more effective and less expensive ways to address school mass shootings.
Please provide details!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 18, 2018 - 10:25pm PT
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BTW I like all the condescending, passive aggressive statements above. Countdown until those same posters complain about people on the other side not wanting a productive debate.
The above are not "passive aggressive statements," they are parody of the misinformation and patently ridiculous assertions repeatedly made by anti-gunners.
Here is a shooting that doesn't fit the narrative. So, what do we get? Well, pretty much silence. Had this kid used an AR-15, anti-gunners would be all over it as yet another reason why "no such thing should be available to civilians." But let the kid use a simple handgun that is (and always will be) readily available to civilians, yet doing MASSIVE damage with it, well, we hear crickets from the anti-gunner crowd.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 18, 2018 - 10:28pm PT
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No, that link says cops commit crimes 6-9 times more than CCW holders. I'd feel safer around a uniformed cop in a bad neighborhood than a CCW holder.
Guess that depend on what you mean by "safer." I didn't imply "as your bodyguard." The context was in response to your claims about how Ramboesque CCW holders are. You are "safer" around a CCW holder in the important and relevant sense that you are FAR less likely to have them "go off" around you than ANY other measurable demographic in America.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 18, 2018 - 10:30pm PT
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I never said anything of the sort. I did basically call out people for being selfish pricks for fighting any new gun control laws so they can easily get the guns they want, while leaving kids in schools and people who don't want to carry out to dry.
And there's the typical false-cause argument.
Please explain what NEW law would have kept this incident from happening. Please explain how IT would have been the one that would have kept this kid from intentionally breaking the whole HOST of other, already-existing laws he already broke.
I'm all for laws that have a chance of actually having a causal relation to what they are supposed to prevent! And people that decry laws that are suggested for NO other reason than to appear to be "doing something" are not "pricks".
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 18, 2018 - 10:37pm PT
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who are the wrong people?
As with the CCW requirements above: (the higher capacity, more easily concealed the weapon the more control there should be around it)
completed a training course (I think this should be universal for any gun. I see too many yahoos resting their finger on the triggers. I'm teaching gun safety to my kids with their freakin nerf guns because I want those good habits instilled whey they get to real guns, by the way you could shoot someones eye out kid.
haven't been convicted of a felony (no brainer for violent felonies)
haven't been diagnosed as mentally ill (again a no brainer, at least for a period of time after a serious diagnosis.)
haven't lost your gun rights (no brainer, but it takes universal background checks and very stiff punishments for bypassing it for this to work better)
have to be at least 21 years old (I'd be fine with this in general.) I bought my first gun right after I turned 18 and in hindsight I wasn't responsible enough to own it. I did not take a safety class first and had no idea what I was doing because my parents didn't own guns. And I was about average in responsibility for my age, a lot of my peers were less responsible than I was. This is just anecdotal and opinion, but it's how I feel.
The Newtown shooter was infuriating to me. His stupid gun nut mother let a kid, who was probably Level 2 on the Autism Spectrum Disorder, play violent video games, taught him how to shoot, and left her guns where he could get them. That's a textbook example of who shouldn't have guns. And yes laws could have made a difference. If it was the law she should have kept her guns locked up (safe storage law) it may have prevented that horrible tragedy. I wouldn't dream of leaving any of my guns where my kids could get at them.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 18, 2018 - 10:40pm PT
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I'm not going to bother debating you madbolter if you either don't bother to comprehend much of what I write or misconstrue it on purpose. Instead of trying to be right all the time, why don't you listen to what other people are saying?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 18, 2018 - 11:04pm PT
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I'm not going to bother debating you madbolter if you either don't bother to comprehend much of what I write or misconstrue it on purpose. Instead of trying to be right all the time, why don't you listen to what other people are saying?
I guess, right back atcha. You clearly stated: "Or let's make sure everyone is armed. Hey that's what some people feel makes them safer. Never mind the statistics that show that people who concealed carry are actually more likely to get shot. Probably thru more risk taking and things they probably could have deescalated through talking."
I called you out for straw-manning the gun-rights side of the debate. NOBODY is advocating the "make sure than everyone is armed."
I called you out for never providing actual citations for stats supporting your claim ABOUT CCW holders being more likely to get shot. Still waiting on that one; I don't believe it, knowing CCW holders that I do.
I called you out for speculating about some Ramboesque attitude on the part of those that carry guns, when you claimed that "probably" they are more likely to just draw than talk! That one's ridiculous on the face of it.
ALL your claims (and others).
So, please explain how I'm "misreading" you.
I certainly try to be charitable, but in this case I don't think that there was room for "misinterpretation," and I wasn't going to stand by silently for ANY part of the misinformation and speculation you've been posting.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 18, 2018 - 11:13pm PT
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the pro-gun crowd are so thrilled with this incident its as if they all got together and paid for it to happen just so they could circle jerk...
What a ridiculous statement. How about exhibiting a shred of intellectual honesty and admitting that ones like this really are not going to be stopped by more legislation?
And what does "common sense gun control" even mean??? That's as ridiculous as "assault rifle." YOU can't define either, and neither can legislators. And that is why debate continues to rage.
You want to take a statistic and spin it to support your particular interpretations of what legislation SHOULD be to be "common sense."
I've repeatedly asked on this and other threads, "Please define exactly what 'common sense gun control' means, and please explain exactly why we should believe that the proposed legislation will have a measurable impact."
Last time, I even said, "I'll start. I'm all for universal background checks; eliminate all transfer loopholes. If you transfer a gun to somebody else by ANY means, that person should have the pass the same background check they have to pass at Cabelas or Walmart." As I said, I don't think that it would have any measurable impact on gun crime of any sort, but I despise exceptions to what are otherwise good laws. I do believe that people should have to demonstrate competency to drive and to carry a gun, given how densely packed we are as a society.
But, you know, texting while driving is illegal, and people here in Colorado do it CONSTANTLY. I seriously don't see a shred of evidence to even suggest that the law has any preventative effect.
So, I'll ask again: Exactly what does "common sense gun control" even mean, and what effect would proposed legislation have?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 19, 2018 - 12:20am PT
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^^^ Yeah. Good luck with that.
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Topic Author's Reply - May 19, 2018 - 04:14am PT
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Moose’s position is not an easy one to take with all the false patriotic ‘Guns are American’ rhetoric flying around these days. Standing up to the attack, attack, attack tactics of gun proponents used all the time now is an uphill battle for certain but not an unworthy one.
And using walls of words amounting to ‘don’t take away my 2nd amendment rights because I’m scared and brave all at the same time, and it’s in the constitution’ or calling out peaceful protesters as being subversive or terrorists is straight from the McCarthy/Trump handbook and doesn’t require a lot of courage. Also not likely to stop the Davids from standing up to the Goliath.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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May 19, 2018 - 05:36am PT
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...calling out peaceful protesters as being subversive or terrorists is straight from the McCarthy/Trump handbook and doesn’t require a lot of courage
You read the title of this thread?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 19, 2018 - 07:17am PT
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My position is pretty close to Moose's. While I don't think we can put the firearm genie back in the bottle, the current gun situation in the US is contrary to what the Second Amendment provides. To madbolter's point, it's not just AR15s. No kid should ever be able to get his or her hands on a gun outside of a firing range or a well supervised hunting trip. I care not a whit if was a 'just' handgun. In fact, prior to D.C. v. Heller, which overruled years of precedent (thanks Scalia), there was no Constitutional right to a handgun.
I don't hear crickets. I hear a building storm.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 19, 2018 - 08:14am PT
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No kid should ever be able to get his or her hands on a gun outside of a firing range or a well supervised hunting trip.
And I absolutely agree. How do you stop it?
You can prosecute this dad, and we certainly should, imo. Will that stop it? Certainly not.
To the "hollow" sound of my agreeing to universal background checks, what do you WANT? What would it take for you to recognize compromise thinking? What I've expressed is, simply: I cannot tell what anti-gunners actually WANT with "common sense gun control." And, still, even to this moment, there's no attempt to explain or define that phrase.
I said, "I'll start," and I did. What's really "hollow" is the sound of silence on the substance following that.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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May 19, 2018 - 08:49am PT
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Actually I agree with Madbolter on a couple of things
I agree that passing a national law requiring all firearms sold at gun shows or even privately like right now through any newspaper in the country to have to undergo background checks would not reduce mass murder
I agree that the concert, nightclub and school shooting while they kill more people quickly
are nothing compared to the one on one murders all day and night of people who know each other
I agree that anyone who really wants to buy a gun can easily find a way to do it, falsify, get a straw buyer, etc
The high school kid who murdered ten people at school yesterday and could not legally buy a gun but simply took his fathers guns
I agree that gun deaths are simply the acceptable result of living in America
And that we really just need to cool down and not wring our hands over every mass murder
The US is not Australia, England, Norway, Germany or Canada
The Second Amendment has insured that we absolutely will not change our laws as those countries have
In short, there is nothing meaningful that we can do to mitigate mass murder
so let the "thoughts and prayers" continue to go out, over and over and over
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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May 19, 2018 - 09:53am PT
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In short, there is nothing meaningful that we can do to mitigate mass murder
Each murder is different with different root causes. As such there is no solution that fits them all. Hell, Governments kill millions and simply re-lable it as acceptable or even good(Victory!). Happens all over the planet, every day and night, rain or shine. Stones,clubs,fists,fire,poison,blades,guns,fission,fusion,etc.
The only tiny thing we can control is how soft of a target do we want to be as individuals.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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May 19, 2018 - 09:59am PT
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The only tiny thing we can control is how soft of a target do we want to be as individuals.
This is the common sense the left lacks.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 19, 2018 - 11:06am PT
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Amen
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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May 19, 2018 - 12:03pm PT
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thoughts and prayers
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 19, 2018 - 12:27pm PT
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You want some "common sense" gun laws?
OK
How about keep your muzzle pointed in a safe direction, and keep yer finger off the trigger until yer ready to shoot.
Anything more is attempting to legislate the toothpaste back into the tube.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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May 19, 2018 - 12:32pm PT
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Toker is right!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 19, 2018 - 04:28pm PT
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Thank you, Norton.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 19, 2018 - 04:36pm PT
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Saw this repost on facebook. Echos of what I wrote earlier about the Newton shooters mother leaving her guns where her son could get at them.
Laws don't stop crime.
The killer is in custody.
If there weren't any laws against shooting people, we couldn't prosecute him. We'd have to let him go.
Laws don't stop crime and never have.
We have laws regarding murder, theft, rape, fraud, etc.
And yet, we still have murder, theft, rape, fraud, etc.
We pass new laws to address evolving problems, such as electronic crimes. Or things some folks WISH were crimes, like abortion.
But, laws don't stop crime.
Laws don't stop crime. It would be nice if they did, but that's not the law's function.
Laws give society legal recourse when its members engage in anti-social actions. If you didn't have law against murder, you couldn't do anything (legally) about it when murders happen.
The shooter did not legally possess the guns he used. This is true. But that doesn't mean laws don't work.
The question is: HOW did the shooter get those guns?
Somebody has to be legally responsible for those weapons. So how did the shooter get them?
If the shooter got his weapons from his father as rumored, then the FATHER should be legally responsible for failure to properly secure the guns. But that only works if there are ENFORCEABLE laws in place regarding storage and access in the home.
If that law doesn't exist, then it should.
Such a law would not prevent any responsible citizen from owning a gun. It doesn't infringe on 2nd Amendment rights. It simply requires that the gun owner be held LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE for his or her guns. If Adam Lanza's mother had properly secured her weapons, she'd be alive today, along with the children murdered at Sandy Hook. Adam Lanza was mentally ill. He COULD NOT BE LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE. She knew that. Her own irresponsibility cost 28 people their lives.
Laws don't prevent crime, not all of it anyway.
But they CAN reduce crime by modifying society's behavior over the long term. See Drunk Driving laws. Obviously, those laws don't stop drunk driving, but they DID drastically reduce it by changing irresponsible behavior.
Now, Making driving while intoxicated illegal does NOT keep anyone from drinking if they want to. But we prosecute irresponsible intoxication. We hold those who enable it responsible, even bartenders and liquor store owners. Those we catch violating the law GO TO JAIL.
And we are draconian about enforcing these laws, we have campaigns about how draconian we are, we put up signs along the highways and we have cops go to schools and lecture kids about it, and as a result people have become significantly more responsible about their behavior when they otherwise wouldn't be.
If guns laws addressed specific irresponsibility, such as failure to secure your weapons, and we held those responsible to the same degree as drinking, and we promoted gun responsibility the same way we do responsible drinking, then you'd see a marked reduction in cases like this one.
Where'd the shooter get his guns? EXCELLENT question.
The answer isn't: Laws don't work.
The answer is a law that specifically addresses the problem identified by the question and holds those responsible to strict and mandatory account. Every time.
If we started holding guns owners responsible for their guns to a degree no more stringent than gun manufacturer guidelines and the NRA's own rules for safe gun handling, then you'd see gun owners start properly securing their guns. As they should.
I'm NOT talking about taking your guns away.
I'm a gun owner too. I'm sitting right now within three feet of two gun safes. MY weapons are secure when not on my person. Period. No exceptions. Ever. They are my guns. *I* am responsible. No one else. Because I was trained that way.
Laws don't stop crime.
But then neither do GUNS.
Laws don't stop crime and never have.
But the right laws make crime far less likely by modifying irresponsible behavior and by giving society legal recourse to hold its members accountable for their actions.
We'll prosecute the shooter, sure enough.
But we SHOULD ALSO prosecute those who enabled him.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 19, 2018 - 04:57pm PT
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Amen to your last statement! Rights imply responsibilities. The right to bear arms should carry with it the responsibility to take care that those arms not be used improperly by anyone.
John
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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May 19, 2018 - 06:49pm PT
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...others who the nra fronts for want bump stocks and silencers and no way tracking the transfer of possession nor an means of taking them away from the mentally ill nor domestic abusers
I think that's called hyperbole. Virtually no one, not even the NRA, takes those positions.
FWIW bump stocks are ridiculous contraptions that make an otherwise good rifle into a piece of crap with zero accuracy. All they are good for is yahoo's who like to waste ammo. Or, sadly, the Vegas mass murderer who didn't need accuracy to wreak his mayhem. Even the NRA is against them.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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May 19, 2018 - 06:59pm PT
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The NRA only cares about selling more guns and ammo. They are a gun industry shill. Nothing more.
They will walk a fine line between inciting gun restriction paranoia and pretending to advocate gun safety to maximize sales.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 19, 2018 - 07:57pm PT
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Here's the #1 Factor Experts Say Accounts for High Number of Mass Shootings in the US
https://www.alternet.org/heres-1-factor-experts-say-accounts-high-number-mass-shootings-us
Canadians have had their fair share of "mass stabbings," which virtually by definition don’t turn out to be particularly massive. Knives don’t kill people, people kill people, but people kill people on a markedly diminished scale with knives, and that’s hard not to notice for those of us who live outside the U.S.
To acquire and carry a gun in Canada, you need to go through a mind-boggling [3] number of tests and procedures, the results of which are then vetted by police. Each one of these steps surely acts as a cool-down procedure on a mentally unstable mind.
Explosively enraged at the world? First attend your “gun safety class” on a Saturday, next available slot in two months, in the town 20 miles from your house. Then study for, write and pass the safety test that enables you to apply—to the police—for a license. That will entail extensive background checking on their part, after which you may or may not be freed to research where you can go to purchase your weapon and finally unleash your hateful rage.
A commonly repeated argument in the U.S. is that men of murderous intent will just go ahead and buy their guns on the black market. Perhaps, but in Canada apparently there aren’t many assault rifles lying around. The black market, after all, isn’t just down the street beside the corner store. It’s more akin to a word-of-mouth social network. Think loosely assembled gangs passing around Glocks as opposed to isolated, fantasizing aggressors with no real-world criminal ties, like Adam Lanza in Sandy Hook.
The internet is a grand marketplace for pathologies but not that helpful when things have to be delivered by UPS. So if the guns aren’t legally on offer, or indeed, in Lanza’s case, in the house, then the black market will tend to act as a baffle.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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May 19, 2018 - 09:58pm PT
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To acquire and carry a gun in Canada, you need to go through a mind-boggling [3] number of tests and procedures, the results of which are then vetted by police.
That's what happens when you're a subject instead of a citizen.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 20, 2018 - 12:21am PT
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So taking 3 tests is too big a burden to prevent unstable people and criminals from getting guns?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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May 20, 2018 - 12:38am PT
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You want to talk gun control? How about gun owners controlling their guns?
Sandy hook would not have happened if Lanza's mother locked up her guns. In that case she paid for her stupidity with her life before the massacre of innocent children.
In the recent Texas murders the kid had his dad's guns.
Gun control begins at home.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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May 20, 2018 - 09:05am PT
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@Kingtut:
Sorry, but you're wrong about USA leading the pack in mass shootings.
https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/comparing-death-rates-from-mass-public-shootings-in-the-us-and-europe/
It FEELS like it because they're horrible events, and they garner huge media coverage. Macedonia sounds bad!
The West Bank and Gaza sound worse.
The difference is the mass shooters are sanctioned.
And I invite you to google “ Crimeresearch.org funding “ to see how shootings research from this NRA funded group group and the Crime Prevention Research center are skewed to exclude crime shootings and include only terrorist shootings.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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May 20, 2018 - 09:20am PT
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Santa Fe High School was "hardened", even had an active shooter full drill recently
they had armed security, trained SWAT read to go anytime
no mental health failure, the kid was considered normal and little quiet, like many kids
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 20, 2018 - 01:56pm PT
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lack of religion they say is the problem
Yeah, that line always scares me nigh unto death!
Of course, what they always mean is: "My particular, sectarian, highly-interpreted, Christian dogma."
God save us from THAT ever holding sway in the United States!!!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 20, 2018 - 02:12pm PT
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^^^ ROFL
Savage trolllll!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 20, 2018 - 02:35pm PT
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You want to talk gun control? How about gun owners controlling their guns?
Sandy hook would not have happened if Lanza's mother locked up her guns. In that case she paid for her stupidity with her life before the massacre of innocent children.
In the recent Texas murders the kid had his dad's guns.
Gun control begins at home.
but whats the incentive?
I would guess the single most effective (and least expensive) thing we could do to prevent school shootings is to pass a nationwide safe firearm storage act. I have kids at home and I already religiously lock up my guns. Not really to prevent them from shooting up a school, but because I don't want them fooling around with them without supervision or sneaking into the woods out back to try them out. I would have done that when I was a kid. Actually I DID. I have my grandfather's shotguns that I played with as a kid and figured out how they worked, without supervision (my grandfather had long since passed away or I'm sure he would have showed me how to safely handle them). Luckily I never put ammo in them and actually shot them. If it was a law more people would do it and less kids could get a hold of guns. More lives would probably be saved from one on one or self inflicted accidents. But it would help with school shootings too.
But why not secure the schools now? Not one good reason.... I'm not against it, especially for some schools (high crime areas), but it wouldn't be very effective overall. Why not? 1. Expense. My kids grade school has 28 kids in a 2nd grade class with one teacher. Ridiculous. Teachers spend more time managing behavior than teaching. They teach to the center of the bell curve. The kids at the bottom and the top are left out. I'd rather spend that money on smaller class size. 2. It will be ineffective at many schools. My kids schools are open campuses with out door "hallways". Each class has a door to the outside. There's about 40-50 doors. One person may help, but there's only so much they could do. 3. Accidents happen and people lose their temper. A couple months ago a teacher brought a gun to school to show "safe handling" and it accidentally went off. A couple years ago a guy in a theater murdered a young father because the father threw popcorn at him. It's just a matter of time until someone is shot or killed by having armed guards. I'd say overall they'd prevent more deaths than they cause, but I think there's more effective solutions available.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 20, 2018 - 02:59pm PT
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You are a moron.... I won't even address how much of a slobbering idiot you have to believe.... I pity the fool.
Way to elevate the discussion, in your typical fashion.
Name-calling and epithets are the forever retreat of those that can't argue strictly on the merits of the propositions.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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May 20, 2018 - 03:06pm PT
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Why hasn't this kid's dad been arrested? Oh, I forget he's just another of those blameless "responsible, law abiding gun owners" that keep helping the nutters in so many of these cases. Sure, I realize that almost nothing is going to stop a determined teenager getting your guns (certainly didn't stop me as a teen), but unless you're found dead or injured beside your gun safe, you should be treated like the getaway driver from an armed robbery.
TE
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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May 20, 2018 - 03:54pm PT
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Sorry Moron Tut. If you read the article, it points out that Norway is an outlier, especially because it was the one big attack that skewed the data. The research also goes into frequency, and the US is about 10th or 12th. So rather than call me a moron, why don't you learn HOW TO READ.
BAd
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 20, 2018 - 03:56pm PT
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Regardless of this or that particular "gun negligence" law that may or may not presently be in place, surely this father can be charged with some sort of gross negligence. In Colorado, at least, the definition of "attempted murder" could be cast to fit such a case. Of course, the attorneys get involved, and then all bets are off. But even indictment and trial would send a serious heads-up to those that leave guns laying around and accessible to minors.
I agree that a sweeping gun-negligence law would provide some specific prosecutorial power that is lacking in some states. The message needs to be: "YOU are responsible and will be held responsible for what is done with your gun, unless you can demonstrate that you exercised all reasonable caution (such as locking the thing up when it's not on your person)."
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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May 20, 2018 - 04:37pm PT
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surely this father can be charged with some sort of gross negligence
Only if our society begins to recognize this dad was even slightly negligent could we ever get to the point where it will be considered grossly negligent. I've read parents proudly post (perhaps even here?) how their kids are so "well trained" that they can leave guns lying around the house and the kids won't touch them. When a congressional candidate can point a gun at a teenager as part of his "proud gun owner, defender of the 2A" campaign ad, we have a long way to go.
FFS, you can be sued for leaving a swimming pool gate unlocked, why the heck can't people be held responsible for their guns?
TE
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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May 20, 2018 - 06:35pm PT
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why the heck can't people be held responsible for their guns?
They/we/I all should be.
This sucker is bolted to the concrete pad with four 1/2" five piece bolts, on the inside.
My guns are locked up:
When the house is empty.
When there are young people in the house (we don't have kids.) But for example if my 19 yr. old nephew is visiting they're locked, 24-7 (Of course the nephew lives in France, so I take him to the range since it's something he can't do there.)
If there's a party going on. If people are drinking, smoking, whatever, that thing is locked.
If I have guests or visitors I don't know well. A repair person for example. Heck, I could excuse myself to take a crap and some creep could go poking around.
And I never, ever leave a gun lying around the house.
Of course not every gun owner has the place for a big safe like that, and they're pricey (I keep other valuables and my camera gear, extra hard drives, the laptop, Important documents, etc. in there too.)
But there are much less expensive and smaller options for locking up your guns. Some of them, for example a long gun locker that slides under a bed can be stolen, but at least your kids can't get the gun.
The minimum standard should be that if someone commits a crime with my gun there will be serious consequences for me.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 20, 2018 - 06:36pm PT
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But even indictment and trial would send a serious heads-up to those that leave guns laying around and accessible to minors.
I believe that there are quite effective controls proposed (id sensitive gun safeties, e.g. finger print reader like your cell phone, or other biometric means of identification) to prevent the use of firearms.
The sort of "use control" could prevent kids from using guns at home for this sort of horrific event, and still allow guns to be used by those authorized.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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May 20, 2018 - 06:43pm PT
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id sensitive gun safeties
It's an interesting idea, but there are a lot of problems. Not the least of which are the millions of guns already owned which don't have this feature. And of course my nephew wouldn't be able to shoot my guns at the range.
I think it's important to focus on achievable goals. Holding a gun owner responsible if their unsecured weapon is used in a shooting is a start. The punishment would have to be enough to really send a message.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 20, 2018 - 06:47pm PT
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you could certainly program in a time and probably a place at which different id's could use the guns.
and you could offer it as a possible product in the gun market and let time and market forces decide.
I don't see why this isn't a viable option. One responsible choice would be to acquire guns with use control, which is what a safe, etc. are... though apparently not effective.
Use control also eliminates the problem of stolen guns being used by the unauthorized.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 20, 2018 - 07:24pm PT
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Use control also eliminates the problem of stolen guns being used by the unauthorized.
The biggest reason why responsible gun owners are not wowed by the present state of the technology is that it's not even close to 100% reliable.
Heck, I can't even get the fingerprint reader on my phone or tablet to work correctly. And the one on the gun safe in my car so often doesn't work that I end up using the key most of the time anyway, which defeats the whole promise of "absolute security with almost instant access."
What every gun owner rightly expects is that when that gun is legitimately supposed to go "bang," it ALWAYS goes "bang."
The current state of "smart gun" technology is such that the gun often does not go "bang" when it is supposed to.
It's going to be a hard row to hoe after various unsuccessful attempted roll-outs to convince new purchasers that "We've worked out the bugs. Really, really." And that doesn't count the many legitimate use-cases that are precluded by, say, fingerprint technologies, such as: wearing gloves!
Meanwhile, some serious heads-up legislation, along with some high-profile cases of irresponsible gun owners being prosecuted, is a good step toward educating negligent fathers like this most recent one: There's a new sheriff in town.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 20, 2018 - 08:02pm PT
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I think we would be better off with far fewer guns in the hands of private citizens, and the vast majority of law enforcement experts agree. We are a violent species. According to the CRIME CLOCK, in the U.S.
Someone is murdered every 31 minutes.
Someone is raped every 1.9 minutes.
Someone is assaulted every 36.9 seconds.
A home is victimized by theft every 4.8 seconds.
A home is burglarized every 18 seconds
A woman is victimized by an intimate partner every 52 seconds.
Fewer guns, yes, but that is only the tip of the iceberg. I wonder how many crimes have been avoided because we choose to attack, pound on, assault and maim inanimate cliffs of rock rather than people
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 20, 2018 - 08:08pm PT
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Comparing Norway (that oh so conveniently had one severe event in the last 100 years, then because it was relatively recent to fit it into the data set to make it seem like we aren't the worst) is either simple dishonesty or stupidity. Your choice.
My choice is to say: False dichotomy.
First, it's a general fact that studies are "cooked" to make a point. Studies of studies are a bit more reliable. But studies start with biases and then "demonstrate" them, particularly when they are paid for by entities with an agenda (as most studies are).
One way they do so is by the judicious use of time slices. The use of the Norway study above does this, but it's not, as you say obviously stupid. I get what you're saying about the US having a "trend" compared to a single, recent event. But determining what the two mean is precisely where the devil lies!
If you're going to cite trends, well, the trend has been downward in the USA, both in terms of gun-homicide in general and in terms of mass-shootings.
https://mises.org/wire/there-are-fewer-school-shootings-now-during-1990s
And that's with an undeniable and quite significant increase in the number of both guns and gun owners. So, "studies show" is a particularly tendentious basis for a substantive claim, and that's an indictment of both "sides" of the debate.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 20, 2018 - 09:14pm PT
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The biggest reason why responsible gun owners are not wowed by the present state of the technology is that it's not even close to 100% reliable.
I think it has been unfortunately demonstrated that the current "use control," which is gun safes, and proper gun training, and instilling responsibility, has failed tragically.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 20, 2018 - 11:50pm PT
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I think it has been unfortunately demonstrated that the current "use control," which is gun safes, and proper gun training, and instilling responsibility, has failed tragically.
In a free society, we accept a pretty wide range and volume of tragedy. The line, "Please drink responsibly" has been an even bigger "failed tragically," but nobody's advocating "magazine limits" for alcoholic beverages. Nobody's advocating that a first-offense DUI case should get 25-to-life, although I personally think that a person who drinks and drives is every bit as negligent as this father who left his guns laying around.
Nobody anticipates dire consequences resulting from their irresponsibility. That's the very difference between negligence and intention.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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May 21, 2018 - 06:24am PT
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I think it has been unfortunately demonstrated that the current "use control," which is gun safes, and proper gun training, and instilling responsibility, has failed tragically.
Gun safes and proper training are much more popular now than thirty years ago. Check the classifieds in American Rifleman going back to see for yourself. Over those thirty years, the homicide rate has dropped by half.
Doesn't sound like a tragic failure to me, whether one caused the other, or not.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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May 21, 2018 - 06:28am PT
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A 17 year old who decided to murder people who had offended him is a man, not a boy. He should have been summarily executed on the spot, as a man.
He stole weapons from someone and used them for murder. His intent was murder and suicide. He planned his murders well in advance.
Assigning blame to the father for what this man did puzzles me.
You're never going to stop a man with murderous and suicidal intent with locks. Locks and safes are great for keeping accidents at bay with little kids or maybe to slow down burglars.
I can cut any typical gunsafe into pieces in less than 15 minutes with a $40 angle grinder and a bag of cutoff wheels. They're all sheetmetal on the sides.
So lay blame with the man. Unfortunately the victims families will be paying to keep this maggot alive for the next 30 years...
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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May 21, 2018 - 07:59am PT
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Wow, Tut, what a wonderful fellow you are. Anyway, some stuff from the study I posted which addresses specifically the kind of attacks we're seeing in schools, etc.--the crazy mass killings that get the most press as opposed to the less dramatic but far more numerous onezies and twozies that bathe our big cities in blood. Remember, NO ONE here is arguing that these deaths of any sort are okay. I'm just trying to bring in some data to put the discussion in context. It appears nuance is lost to you, not to mention good manners. Momma not learn you well?
Anyway, some shizzle:
"The CPRC has also collected data on the worst mass public shootings, those cases where at least 15 people were killed in the attack.
There were 16 cases where at least 15 people were killed. Out of those cases, four were in the United States, two in Germany, France, and the United Kingdom.
But the U.S. has a population four times greater than Germany’s and five times the U.K.’s, so on a per-capita basis the U.S. ranks low in comparison — actually, those two countries would have had a frequency of attacks 1.96 (Germany) and 2.46 (UK) times higher."
I found this amazing. We are saturated in news coverage of each incident, and they are terrible, but we don't see what's going on in different countries. It's worth repeating what Madbolter said, that gun deaths are down even as the number of guns owned has gone up.
Re. "smart guns": Yeah, the last thing you want is the gun NOT to go off when you really need it. Yikes.
BAd
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 21, 2018 - 08:12am PT
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^^^ If I ever necessarily and legally pull the trigger, my gun had better say "BANG," not, "Rebooting to install your Windows updates. Please don't power off your gun."
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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May 21, 2018 - 08:59am PT
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Having that clown Oliver North as president speaks to the culture of the NRA.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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May 21, 2018 - 09:13am PT
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Kingtut
Thank you for the clarification. Bad climber has presented biased gun nut statistics.
Let's look at 2010:
Let's get the other years.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 21, 2018 - 09:46am PT
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Tut: Sigh.
I give up. Your venom is pretty shocking, and you should know that there's no justification for it. Others here, on both "sides" should call you out for it.
If I were the "Rambo" type you suggest, I'd be responding differently than I am now.
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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May 21, 2018 - 10:29am PT
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He stole weapons from someone and used them for murder
I am not sure that "stole" is the correct interpretation of what he did to get the guns. They were his father's weapons, so either the kid had easy access to them (they were laying around, or they were in a safe, and he knew the combo).
If the latter, the father is culpable, and should be charged.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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May 21, 2018 - 10:34am PT
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.....and anyone with such a dependence on guns is not rational.
So let me guess.... soldiers, police, security guards, fbi, cia... who are all homo sapiens, are somehow 'special'?
Do tell.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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May 21, 2018 - 10:35am PT
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Hope the father gets sued. Too bad he can't lose his home over this. (or maybe he can)
Fear, guns are part of their job. False equivalence.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 21, 2018 - 10:47am PT
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Stop fantasizing about "legally pulling the trigger" and get some help?
Your relentless psycho-babble is, well, relentless.
If you had a functioning sense of humor on this subject, you'd clearly see the humor in my response to the whole "smart gun" idea. You know, "Windows update... rebooting...." Come on. It was funny.
And I find your conflation of the both moral and legal right to self-defense and that of my family with being psychotic to be itself psychotic. That's just bizarro-land, man. Take a chill-pill.
If you choose to proxy off your violence to "the authorities," that's your choice. Nobody's forcing you any which way on the subject. Just don't impose your choice on everybody else and have the audacity to wrap it in a totally false moral security blanket. To protect yourself and your family, you'd call a cop and expect that "first responder" to exercise any necessary level of violence to protect you and yours.
The problem with your approach is twofold:
1) You have no moral high ground just because you don't have the will/stomach to exercise necessary violence on your own behalf.
2) The cops will arrive after whatever was going to be done to you is done. Anybody that doesn't understand that THEY are the actual first-responder is living in a dream world. The only reason people like that typically live out their lives without incident is the fact that the sort of violence you are all amped up about is very rare. But if you're ever in such a horrible situation, and the minutes of agony are dragging by while you wait for a cop, well, in that day you'll rethink.
When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away.
Toward somebody who denies the most fundamental right of self-defense to others, but who would lamely and only proxy that right off to somebody else, I really have nothing to say that can help you. It's literally just bizarre that you could think that your perspective makes you better than anybody who doesn't want to wait helplessly for a cop to eventually show up.
Your endless accusations of "Rambo fantasy" are truly sick. I mean that. The fact that you can project that sort of perspective on anybody and publicly accuse anybody of that indicates that you really have gone off the rails on this subject. You seriously owe me an apology. Beyond the pale, man. Beyond the pale.
NOBODY that carries a gun WANTS to use it! OMG!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 21, 2018 - 11:32am PT
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NOBODY that carries a gun WANTS to use it! OMG!
Of course almost no one wants to be in a deadly situation. Almost no one wants to have to shoot someone. I say almost because there are violent people out there who would relish the opportunity. But even with relatively normal people like you and me you have to admit you'd want to use it in certain circumstances. What if you were on one of the 9/11 planes? I'd shoot those bastards dead and not lose a minute of sleep over it.
If you really wanted to avoid ever using it you would avoid situations where you may need one and not carry it. In my whole life I have never needed or wanted a gun to use against a human. Probably the only reason you think you need one is because someone else may have one. Right? If you were in a different country like Great Britain you wouldn't feel you need one. See the circular reasoning that led us to this point. There's lots of guns in the US so I need a gun to protect myself. That's what bothers a lot of people, there's an arms race going on that they don't want to be part of.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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May 21, 2018 - 11:38am PT
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Kingtut
Yes, admiration of the "hero", his gun and his strategy not to be forgotten. If there is no hero, make one...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 21, 2018 - 11:41am PT
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Carrying a weapon in public as a matter of course? Sorry, that's an issue at the very least, a clinical diagnosis at worst and, either way, not a sign of a very well-adjusted human.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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May 21, 2018 - 11:49am PT
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No, no one can be shouted into sub mission... money can do that... ask the NRA...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 21, 2018 - 11:52am PT
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Says that man who thinks everyone is at the top of the bell curve and that there are two truths to every issue. No one who packs a gun every time they leave the house is 'middle of the road' or 'normal' in any way.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 21, 2018 - 11:59am PT
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This thread has gone completely off the rails.
Bye bye now.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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May 21, 2018 - 12:22pm PT
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When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away.
Or just waiting outside, scared sh!tless, for the problem to resolve itself..... (i.e. Cheshire, CT, Floriduh, Newtown, etc)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 21, 2018 - 12:47pm PT
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Well politics makes strange bedfellows that’s all I can add to your usual polarized opinion.
Polarized is when you only leave your home armed with a weapon.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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May 21, 2018 - 01:31pm PT
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Given how scary the world is for the pro-gun crowd, why isn't there a push to make full auto weapons legal again? Heck, why not mandatory. Every Johnny should have to carry an Uzi or better to school to defend themselves. Isn't the only way to stop a bad guy with a roof mounted .50 cal a good guy with a roof mounted .50 cal?
Why can't I buy surface to air missiles to defend my Dooms Day Bunker from all the SJW's that are out to take my Freedoms?!
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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May 21, 2018 - 01:34pm PT
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To protect against the state Americans would today need drone weapons...
And why is no one talking about bunkers...
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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May 21, 2018 - 01:35pm PT
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Laser satellites for shooting down drones too.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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May 21, 2018 - 01:36pm PT
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Yes, that's to follow the implisitt logic...
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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May 21, 2018 - 01:58pm PT
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. . . deranged f*#kers packing heat every day they leave the house
Like a lot of retired (and very sane and sensible) police officers.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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May 21, 2018 - 02:05pm PT
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We are a society that is growing sicker by the day.
Does anyone really believe that “fortifying” and arming our schools is the way out of this mess?
We have created a culture that sees “other people” as the problem, and glorifies violent revenge against “other people” that you feel have wronged you.
Until we fix that mindset, things are going to get worse.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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May 21, 2018 - 02:15pm PT
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Careful john you'll get slapped with a logical fallacy, what the brighter ones do when the name calling fails.
I've been around good people who carry firearms every day for decades now... I still haven't met any paranoid crazies that tut fantasizes about or that the msm spews on and on about. I've met some odd people for sure but never anyone looking for a fight. Once you've been training for a few years and you see what real bullets do and can't do, nobody sane wants to get into a firefight unless all else fails.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 21, 2018 - 02:26pm PT
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I'm personally all for coming for your guns. Is there any legitimate purpose for guns that require more than 100 million guns? Not as far as I'm concerned so that means we could easily roundup and meltdown about 200 million excess guns. And really, with 300 million guns already in circulation, I can't think of a single reason - aside from a highly activist interpretation of the 2nd - why guns should be so readily available, ridiculously easy to purchase, or why gun owners shouldn't be regulated exactly like cars and drivers.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 21, 2018 - 03:01pm PT
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Just so you all know, there is talk now that some of the dead or wounded may have been hit by cross fire. The police spokesman doesn't think this is the case, but says the autopsies will tell. If so, this could be a reason why arming schools heavily is not such a good idea.
If you look at the stats, even the police are incredibly inaccurate when they shoot.
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WBraun
climber
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May 21, 2018 - 05:10pm PT
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I remember a SAR guy in Camp 4 who had a loaded 45 magnum gun in his truck.
Nothing ever happened you anti-gun nut pussies......
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WBraun
climber
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May 21, 2018 - 05:44pm PT
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LOL you responded to this .... and more lol ......
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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May 21, 2018 - 07:33pm PT
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I'm personally all for coming for your guns. Is there any legitimate purpose for guns that require more than 100 million guns? Not as far as I'm concerned so that means we could easily roundup and meltdown about 200 million excess guns. And really, with 300 million guns already in circulation, I can't think of a single reason - aside from a highly activist interpretation of the 2nd - why guns should be so readily available, ridiculously easy to purchase, or why gun owners shouldn't be regulated exactly like cars and drivers. So why haven't you done it? Could it be those pesky things called elections? I get it; democracy sucks when you're full of bad ideas.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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May 22, 2018 - 06:15am PT
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Well, Tut, if it wasn't clear before--lol--it is now. You're clearly unhinged:
"To Serve and Protect" is not what every LEO believes. More like "Shoot First, Ask Questions Later".
When most cops will NEVER fire their weapons on the job in the course of an entire career? The good news is that they will come to your aid even with your twisted views. Yep. There are some bad cops, and they need to be rooted out and disposed of, and I think the modern era of cameras everywhere is really helping in this regard. But most are dedicated men and women doing a job that is so boring, so unpredictable, so difficult that I suspect you wouldn't last a month. We ask them to deal with the absolute crap of humanity, and I'm really grateful some people will stand up and take on that burden.
BAd
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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May 22, 2018 - 10:28am PT
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By your logic, Planned Parenthood is a terrorist organization.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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May 22, 2018 - 10:30am PT
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we should arm the feti
NRA is not terrorist, just a corporate tentacle up in your government britches. besides, NRA members don't do shootings, just fertilizer bombings of federal buildings
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TradMike
Trad climber
Cincinnati, Ohio
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May 22, 2018 - 10:35am PT
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The NRA is not a terrorist organization. A lot of mindful gun owners are part of that group and they do keep their guns locked up in safes. I wonder how many NRA members have taken part in said violence? Guns have been around since they were created and things were fine for a long time. It seems people don't want to look at the correct problem. Society has degraded significantly. Population is hitting its saturation point (note the caravans of people fleeing violence, water shortages, food shortages). Social media is downright evil when in the hands of a minor and some adults. Kids bully the sh#t out of each other on social media until someone snaps (where are the police of social media - they don't care for one thing but money). The news perpetuates the problem and invested in the exact things that are creating the problem. Families don't sit down for dinner anymore and have meaningful conversations. People don't live by the mantra - treat other like you want to be treated. Some of our movies and video games also model excellent villain characters to take after if you are a bit off in the head.
You can only put so many cattle in a pasture of fixed size before you start having decline and collapse of the heard (same goes with a fish tanks, humans). I'm afraid it is the beginning of the end. We are doomed, you can't fix stupid! Oh and it is not the guns, guns have created more peace than anything else.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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May 22, 2018 - 10:41am PT
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if facebook wanted to atone for getting played like a fake-news piano they might take some initiative in monitoring for, and reporting, the sh#t that idiots like these mass shooters post....
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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May 22, 2018 - 11:39am PT
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@KingTut: a Constitutional Right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. . .
I'll let you try to figure out the problem with your statement. Report back when you're better prepared.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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May 22, 2018 - 11:50am PT
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I am fully aware that exact text is from the Declaration of Independence
Apparently you weren't. ;-
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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May 22, 2018 - 11:51am PT
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Lituya, you spend a lot of time in the classroom these days?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 22, 2018 - 11:52am PT
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Oh and it is not the guns, guns have created more peace than anything else.
I really don't get the positions that it's not the guns or it's all the guns. There's many avenues to address the why this is happening and there's also the how. Similar countries don't have the school shootings problem like we do and it seems the biggest difference is the proliferation of guns, so to say gun control is not part of the problem is just wrong and shows skewed thinking IMO
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 22, 2018 - 12:10pm PT
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Switzerland has more fully automatic weapons per capita than we do.
They’re just not a nation of loonies.
OK, time for kingtush to work up some spittle...
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monolith
climber
state of being
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May 22, 2018 - 12:26pm PT
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I'd love to have Swiss gun laws here. The NRA would not.
Always a hoot when the Swiss are brought up.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 22, 2018 - 12:28pm PT
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King Tush indeed.
Murphy's law can be worked in reverse.
Been carrying for years, because everyone knows that you will need it only when you DON'T have it, and I don't want to need it.
In fact if I DO need it I have likely already made at least one mistake already.
But if I am wrong then at least I'll have it.
(wish we kept our ranges as clean as the Swiss)
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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May 22, 2018 - 12:55pm PT
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You put more faith in other men, with guns, than I do, Toker. Even armed and aware, I do not exalt myself to the point of believing that when i carry it somehow resolves the issue of other idiots with guns.
I concur with monolith.
I believe that Gun access needs to be more fundamentally encouraged and enforced, or more tightly restricted. Gun access is part, but nowhere near all, of the issue. If just women, or hell, if just not any swinging-duck white-ass testosterone colonies, carried religiously, things would be different. Still, naturally, I'd prefer it if we could live in a world of less need for immediate power of death-dealing.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 22, 2018 - 12:59pm PT
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I put so little faith in others with guns that I've stopped going to the local range where I've been repeatedly muzzle swept so much that I now have my own shooting facility out in the boonies.
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Degaine
climber
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May 22, 2018 - 01:17pm PT
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DMT wrote:
Too bad you can’t wave your angry magic wand and impose your righteousness on those little ignorant savages, King Tut.
I tried that once and they moved me from Gryffindor to Hufflepuff.
But that was years ago.
Now I'm a (Jewish) dentist.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 22, 2018 - 01:18pm PT
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The NRA is not a terrorist organization.
Well, that's one opinion and not one I share.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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May 22, 2018 - 01:21pm PT
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welcome back Degaine
I wish you would post more
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 22, 2018 - 11:54pm PT
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Toker I'd like your thoughts on this because you seem like a gun lover and also a very reasonable person. Do you think you carry out of perceived need or because you like to? Or maybe it's both?
I've decided that the chances I would need it are so small that it's not worth the hassle to me. But honestly guns kind of bore me. I setup a shooting range on my property and it was fun for a little while. But I'd rather spend my time doing different things. I see the fun in it though. And I don't judge anyone who enjoys it as much as I love say playing guitar.
I'm just wondering if you are really into guns and having one with you, it seems like that's even more of an incentive to carry than the low probability you would need it and if so it would do any good.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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May 23, 2018 - 06:40am PT
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@Tut:
Welp, since the USA has over 350 MILLION people, the rates of mass shootings, while bad, are not as bad as some other places. Now, of course, not all school shootings are "mass" shootings, which were the subject of my post. You have a tough time with basic stats, yes? Do you think I'm arguing in favor of school shootings? You, sir, are the moron.
@xCon:
Yeah, the vast majority of cops are the good guys. But, as I said, we have a real problem with the bad ones, and there are too many of those. I've listened to a couple of cop panels discussing the job, and they were unanimous in thinking that about 25% shouldn't be on the force. Now, some of those are just lazy or ineffectual, and some are violent criminals. All cops must be held to a higher standard. Would you have us eliminate cops altogether, just a Mad Maxian apocalyptic dystopian free for all? In that case, the Feds better NOT take my guns. But, then, without cops, how would they?
I'm SO done with this thread. Went climbing yesterday. Was bitchin'!
BAd
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 23, 2018 - 07:01am PT
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Why is it all the real patriots think the government is going to take their guns? Maybe they're not really patriots at all but instead are just delusionally disaffected, middle-aged, white males with some serious issues.
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WBraun
climber
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May 23, 2018 - 07:24am PT
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You people need to take a vacation.
You're just babbling the same sh!t everyday into the internet like little old ladies in an old folks home .....
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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libetarian candidate runs wild
nra prints him campaign promotionals?!?!??!?
xcon,
You are misrepresenting the NRA.
The NRA have in no way endorsed this lunatic.
Your actions are typical left wing liberal bullshit using lies to further your agenda.
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| Messages 1 - 267 of total 267 in this topic |
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