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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Mar 22, 2018 - 07:18am PT
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Can’t think of one significant chess player who has taken their own life.
Alekhine drank himself to death, does that count?
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Mar 22, 2018 - 07:36am PT
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Heavy out there on the borderline and yes the Russians did collude against him..
On January 17, 2008, he died at age 64 from renal failure at the Landspítali Hospital (National University Hospital of Iceland) in Reykjavík. He originally had a urinary tract blockage but refused surgery or medication.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2018 - 07:39am PT
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OK Russian guy, maybe 30 is a bit of a stretch. I really haven't counted them all up and don't want to. I'll park it at 20 though but that's not the point. I've only known a few of them and none of them super close to me but wondered about each and everyone of them. Almost all have been "witnessed" right here on this forum, included some who left before Supertopo was started but recounted later.
Ionlyski I have a question for you. It's a climber's question. And of course only type an answer here if you want to. So...Could you do it?
DMT, I've found I can't and I'm good with that. Plenty of depression at times where I vaguely have asked myself if it would be easier to just check out. But there is never any progression of thought down along those lines, as in how would you really act upon it. I think I have always concluded there is no way I could do that to my loved ones. Again, not judging anyone especially because I have lots of loved ones and maybe somebody else might be less fortunate in that area.
Anyway to be clear I do not consider myself at risk.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Mar 22, 2018 - 07:39am PT
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"This is one area where western medicine is better than the alternatives."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3330161/
Looks like we are better at creating the problem so maybe we have better treatment, but I doubt it. The new drug.......food. You can pry my Ayurveda from my cold dead hands.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Mar 22, 2018 - 07:47am PT
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There's the story of the fellow who leaped off the Golden Gate Bridge and suddenly realized all of his problems had solutions, except for one. He was now in midair.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 22, 2018 - 07:53am PT
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Generally suicide you end up with no more gross physical body and now are in your subtle material body.
You are now in limbo, you can't go on nor can you act anymore in the material world.
You are now a ghost for the remaining breaths of your lifespan or longer.
We are NOT the owners of our bodies.
Generally one ends up worst off when committing suicide .....
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Mar 22, 2018 - 08:12am PT
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Above all, Morton prized his Mortality...
But seriously, and disturbingly, I’ve sometimes thought like Cosmic back there; When I check out, no one will know, I’ll just disappear. Not as easy as some might think...
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2018 - 08:21am PT
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Sky, as I mentioned upthread only a few were friends of mine though some were friends of friends. I didn't start this to relay heavy times for me It just seems like a lot of well known climbers leave.
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Mar 22, 2018 - 08:35am PT
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^^^^understood
S...
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RussianBot
climber
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Mar 22, 2018 - 08:56am PT
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Hey thanks. Not meaning to doubt or criticize or anything. My honest reaction is that it’s sad, and you’re the one who’s in tune with it, so to me, that seems like it would be sad to you.
Yea like gun violence or anything, reading supertopo, there’s a lot of death. Lots of condolences. Maybe not the same in chess.
Sure, I do believe that there are correlations in the ways we think and behave between what activities or recreations or games we play, and other aspects of our psychology. And 4 billion years of evolution.
Give the information weaponizers a little time to figure it out, and they’ll help us all out with their understanding. We can all contribute to that game, if we still think that we’re smarter than them.
Zuckerberg seems like a super genius, and if he’s our best and brightest, we’re in trouble. Me, I’m not dead yet! Hope you all stick around a little longer too.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Mar 22, 2018 - 08:58am PT
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^^^^^. Agreed,(with Locker) however my big concern has been dementia or Alzheimer’s ... then how would I know what I need to do or how to do it?
I will always want to maintain residence in a state allowing death with dignity.
Susan
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 22, 2018 - 08:59am PT
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Gary, so did Tal, but it’s not quite the same IMHO. Bobby Fisher didn’t drink, but he had at
least 4 loose screws. I think most climbers come down the production line late on Fridays,
when the line runs low on Loctite. Some, like George Lowe and his cousins, obviously came
through on Mondays.
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BooDawg
Social climber
Butterfly Town
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Mar 22, 2018 - 09:10am PT
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There is always the existential question, “Why should we NOT take our own life?
I remember, as a child less than 10 years old, considering what it would be like for my family if I were not around anymore.
I also remember, several times when starting up a (usually) multi-day climb, thinking, “I wonder if I will get off this climb alive?”
My Abnormal Psychology professor had established the first suicide prevention center/hot line in L.A., and he would role-play with the class using a phone as a prop.
“Ring-ring!”
“Hello, this is the suicide prevention hotline.” Pause… He would put his hand over the phone and speak to the class privately, saying, “He says he’s going to kill himself, and there’s nothing I can do about it. And you know what? He’s right!”
He would then go on with his “conversation,” and follow up with the class discussing the multiple “reasons,” symptoms, interventions, methods, etc. that people would use to attempt to, or succeed, at taking their own lives. Often, such a phone call was really a call for help.
Women called for help WAY MORE than men. And they tended to use less violent means, usually drugs as opposed to guns or other means that leave a bloody mess.
Physician-assisted suicide is now legal in six states plus Washington, D.C. Fortunately, the public is coming to realize that we need to have some choices about our quality of life and that living in terrible physical pain with no plausible end in sight makes life no longer worth living.
Not to minimize the greed of drug companies and the doctors who get kick-backs for prescribing un-needed addictive drugs to their “patients,” but how much of our “opioid crisis” could be considered “physician-assisted suicide?”
Terrible emotional pain is probably a different issue, and may be more amenable to intervention. And it is especially these kinds of situations where use of addictive opioids needs to be curtailed.
When Lisa and I consider our end-of-life options, we usually fantasize about “going out on the ice” together. Thus, we would be with someone we love. The cold would help numb us to physical pain. We would go to sleep in a place of beauty. We would have taken care of our financial and legal matters. Predators, scavengers, and decomposers will have taken care of our physical remains.
Of course, synchronicity and other issues remain…
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Mar 22, 2018 - 09:26am PT
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but I'm personally not prepared to linger in some state of declining and diminished quality of life
Dude, I've been lingering there for years now! If you can't do what you used to do, find something else to do. It's big wide world.
Things can wear on you though. I actually called a suicide hotline a couple of years ago. As usual, it was some call center in Pakistan. I told the guy I was suicidal. He asked me if I knew how to drive a truck.
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John M
climber
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Mar 22, 2018 - 10:02am PT
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I have days where I have trouble walking. If I exercise more then 20 minutes I can end up in so much pain that I end up in a chair for 2 or 3 days. It currently looks like an auto immune disease. is the problem. So its difficult to get in shape or get out and do much.
I was never much of a climber. My main passions were skiing and body surfing and trail running. I use to be very fit and very active. Maybe not Dean Potter active, but still very active.
Now? good grief. LOL.. I barely get outside.
It was very very hard to make the transition from being very active to little or no activity. The taco stand actually helped me get through some pretty rough periods. So y'all can blame yourself for me still being around. hahaha I love hearing peoples stories.
It does appear that a lot of climbers check out purposely. I do though wonder about the surfing community and the skiing community. The taco stand is the only internet forum that I have been involved in. When I was surfing and skiing a lot the internet did not exist. So we rarely heard about others committing suicide. Magazines and our friends were our main sources of news about our sports and suicide wasn't something one talked about, so if you didn't know that person intimately, then you didn't hear.
...
My creds on this subject are that I have dealt with major depression and suicidal energy since I was young. I have posted a fair amount of my history here in the past, so won't trouble you with all the detail at this point.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Mar 22, 2018 - 10:36am PT
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Physician-assisted suicide is now legal in six states plus Washington, D.C. Fortunately, the public is coming to realize that we need to have some choices about our quality of life and that living in terrible physical pain with no plausible end in sight makes life no longer worth living.
yes, that is how it is sold, and yes, that is a reasonable point of view.
HOWEVER, what then actually happens as a result of that argument is different. When looking at the outcomes of Wa, Or, and Calif, the issue of terrible unrelieved pain is not even in the top ten reasons for people choosing to avail themselves of the service.
Not to minimize the greed of drug companies and the doctors who get kick-backs for prescribing un-needed addictive drugs to their “patients,” but how much of our “opioid crisis” could be considered “physician-assisted suicide?”
Very little. And I'm speaking about intent. Suicide is an intentional act, not an accident. It is not common for a opioid overdose to have evidence as an intentional act.
I appreciate that you are doing a play on words to point fingers at causation, and I think there is merit in physician-caused initiation of opioid dependency problems.
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Tamara Robbins
climber
not a climber, just related...
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Mar 22, 2018 - 02:48pm PT
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words from Dad.... circa 1970....
"A lady in the audience once asked him,'What happens when you get too old to climb?'
'You suffer. and if you have character and courage you adjust. Otherwise your loss destroys you...(He didn't add that he expected to be destroyed. He wasn't a passionate climber for nothing, and he suspected that many a mountaineer had chosen death to decay, though their demise appeared an accident)'"
I often wondered how Dad felt about the end of his life, if sometimes when laying in that bed he may have pondered the choices he made and options he'd had. For him, sticking it out and pulling from himself that "just another few feet" as he did on the El Cap solo was likely the only route which didn't compromise HIS Truths.
His words above - and his choice in how he died - indicate the depth of his consideration, as well as empathy for other choices...
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2018 - 03:10pm PT
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Tamara,
That's kind of what I wanted to explore. Is there something about climbing and the total dedication to it and that lifestyle, that depresses many climbers, when they later attempt to grapple with other realities in life?
Arne
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Tamara Robbins
climber
not a climber, just related...
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Mar 22, 2018 - 04:10pm PT
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I think this fits in here...? Doug Robinson's book "The Alchemy of Action" is quite an interesting read (so far, he just gave me a copy last night). It is slightly off this exact topic in so far as delving into chemical composition of psychadelics, but here's a sample of the content:
"The ultimate frontier is consciousness. Climbing-running-skiing and all the rest - those similarly edgy activities - provide a vehicle, a means, to go exploring. We've delved into how they heighten our senses, our awareness, boosting our ability to probe the world around us. That fierce play by nature leads outward, roaming across the planet. But its sharpened awareness can at any moment choose to turn inward."
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