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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 21, 2018 - 05:37pm PT
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Why does it seem (at least to me) so many climbers take their own life? I feel it has been a high percentage, especially in the guys that were legends with many climbing accomplishments in earlier days. Hard cores, great people, many friends, many expeditions.
I won't, but can name to myself 30 or so who left us a little early. In some cases pain and injuries, maybe feelings of better times behind them and not able to relate in a changing world? Feeling left behind and their past accomplishments no longer relevant?
Broken relationships resulting in grief has taken some. Others, no real obvious cause. I'm not judging decisions to check out. Does anybody else think the numbers are higher amongst longtime climbers?
Arne
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Mar 21, 2018 - 06:02pm PT
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I think you need more systematic data collection. You're in the system, and you have no comparisons. It may be significant that you're getting older, a part of a particular cohort, interested in some particular issues, have access to certain media channels, ad nauseum.
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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Mar 21, 2018 - 06:16pm PT
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Single white males have some of the highest rates, especially in their 50s and 60s,
Might just be the cohort you hang with??
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Mar 21, 2018 - 06:20pm PT
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maybe the notably death averse turned aside
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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Mar 21, 2018 - 06:25pm PT
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I am more of a climber groupie but really a caver. I have also been suicidal. I have approached deep pits thinking, I could just jump in and make it look like a fall. Two things stopped me. First is the damage I saw done to my friends who had to recover the bodies of friends. In some cases only cavers can rescue cavers.
The primary thing always seemed to be that the adrenalin rush has a huge antidepressant effect on me. Nothing like ,I could have died today, to keep me from wanting to die today.
A former boyfriend and I discussed this at length. He was primarily a climber. When he got older and could not get out to climb as hard he did, he did commit suicide. Of course there were other factors involved.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 21, 2018 - 07:01pm PT
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Interesting post Crazy. Stay with us please.
MikeL-I have considered what you say. I am in other worlds too. I don't hear of these demises from that many nordic ski racers. I wonder if there are a lot of curling athlete deaths from suicide? I guess I don't know any curlers:)
A
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RussianBot
climber
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Mar 21, 2018 - 08:49pm PT
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Wow 30? That’s really sad. My condolences to you.
On the plus side, sounds like you’ve known a lot of great people. If you were poor and black, you’d probably notice other stuff, and other stuff would seem to be characteristic of the people around you.
Still, that’s really sad - sorry man. That sounds crazy high, but sounds like you’ve known a lot more people than I know. I don’t think I know any people who took their own life who identified themselves to me as climbers.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 21, 2018 - 09:37pm PT
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Can’t think of one significant chess player who has taken their own life.
Owing to La Femme being in the medical world I’ve known a hell of a lot of doctors and
nurses. Can’t think of one who has done so. Face it, climbers got at least one or two loose screws. If you deny that then yous gots three or four. I gots two.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Mar 21, 2018 - 09:44pm PT
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I think suicide is much more common in all groups than we commonly understand. Young males 18 - 25 have high rates as do older people with health problems. The most common form of death with a gun is suicide. People just didn't talk about it as much in the past.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Mar 21, 2018 - 09:51pm PT
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hey there say, ionlyski...
not sure... but, i tend, a bit, to think this may be part of it...
(not just climbers, though) ... but, age groups, and those facing
futures that have 'drastically' changed... (or, that 'wrongly drag on')
i think, if parents, when kids are little, SHOULD teach and show, explain, and whatever (to them), that: there are SEASONS in life... it would be a better foundation, for when they face adult life...
if one is aware of harsh season changes, (whether, health, relationships, personal transplanting (meaning home or job loss), and the list goes on...
well:
they would be better prepared to not think of themselves as:
totally lost, and hopeless... abandoned, or, stuck...
without recourse, etc...
as-- seasons, do change, though, never as fast as 'daily week, month, situations' ... some 'seasons' in our lives can take YEARS... and,
many are NOT prepared to face years of 'starting over' or, 'years of pain' (until some kind of comfort comes) ...
it is what leads to depression... and despair, and isolation as to one
withdrawing-- while accepting wrongly, that there is no way out, but to die...
:(
if one could get past the harsh awful season, upon them, there is 'seasonal change' ... (we see it IN the seasons, of nature, itself... and we see some season, are awful... some are better... yet, somewhere, after we learn to ride-them-out, we CAN be glad of it) ... new things DO GROW...
and, sometimes, if we could but WAIT-- it just may be the best season ever... and, by the 'tempered spirit' in one, after that, they are thus, not afraid of any hard season, that still may come...
yet-- i think, it must start in ONES youth, as a foundation...
it is very hard to 'retrain the brain-- and the spirit is so connected to it...
whether climbers, doctors, police, artist, singers, plumbers, farmers, field workers, mommy's or daddys-- we all have a season that for us, if more personal, that can 'bring us down' if-- we can't be fortified ahead of time, as to the 'way of seasons' or, the way to overcome them...
folks, help your children now...
can they do without? (can they do WITH, as to responsibilities beyond measure?) ...can they do, in the midst of the 'fog' ...
and they do in the midst of a dark-stormy-lonely night? or,
a vast hot desert?
only YOU know, or, only YOU have a clue: if you are CLOSE
to your child...
or, if you are a friend, and you are CLOSE to your friend...
(like lynne, said-- try to learn, if you sense that someone has trouble)...
wouldn't you like someone, to do that for you, as well...
and- pray... some may think it does no good, but, say,
just 'tack a few in' (privately, if needs be) it sure can't hurt...
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Mar 21, 2018 - 09:52pm PT
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Climbing seems to fill the cup pretty full... when not climbing, or unable to at a raging spigot level, it is hard to get that same level of fullness in your cup.... and as Walt Shipley said, "whaddya... attached to this world??"
Climbers, geniuses, and malcontents all have something in common, as Riley states... some sort of loose screw. When it finally falls out, that final solution seems like their best idea ever, and for some it may be.
Do what you want... don't leave a mess for your friends
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the goat
climber
north central WA
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Mar 21, 2018 - 10:00pm PT
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If I can't "be" at my best why "be?" Perhaps the landscape looks pretty desolate beyond a certain point to some. We can only speculate.................
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Mar 21, 2018 - 10:10pm PT
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2016
They don't report data by avocation.
Suicide is the nation's 10th-leading cause of death. Public attention often focuses on teens and college students, but the highest numbers and rates are in middle-aged adults. Suicide is far more common in males, and the rankings largely reflect the male suicide rates for each group.
The highest female suicide rate was seen in the category that includes police, firefighters and corrections officers. The second-highest rate for women was in the legal profession.
It's not the first time a suicide problem has been noted for some of the jobs. In the 1980s, media reports detailed high suicide rates in Midwestern farmers. That was attributed to a tough economy and farmers use of pesticides that scientists have theorized may cause symptoms of depression.
The CDC's occupational suicide list:
1. Farmworkers, fishermen, lumberjacks, others in forestry or agriculture (85 suicides per 100,000)
2. Carpenters, miners, electricians, construction trades (53)
3. Mechanics and those who do installation, maintenance, repair (48)
4. Factory and production workers (35)
5. Architects, engineers (32)
6. Police, firefighters, corrections workers, others in protective services (31)
7. Artists, designers, entertainers, athletes, media (24)
8. Computer programmers, mathematicians, statisticians (23)
9. Transportation workers (22)
10. Corporate executives and managers, advertising and public relations (20)
11. Lawyers and workers in legal system (19)
12. Doctors, dentists and other health care professionals (19)
13. Scientists and lab technicians (17)
14. Accountants, others in business, financial operations (16)
15. Nursing, medical assistants, health care support (15)
16. Clergy, social workers, other social service workers (14)
17. Real estate agents, telemarketers, sales (13)
18. Building and ground, cleaning, maintenance (13)
19. Cooks, food service workers (13)
20. Child care workers, barbers, animal trainers, personal care and service (8)
Perspective_wise
Suicide rates have risen in recent years, increasing 21 percent from 2000 to 2012 for Americans at least 16 years of age
The CDC report is perhaps the largest U.S. study to compare suicide rates among occupations. But it is not comprehensive. It only covers 17 states, looking at about 12,300 of the more than 40,000 suicide deaths reported in the entire nation in 2012.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 21, 2018 - 10:17pm PT
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Damn, shoulda gone into animal training.
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RURP_Belay
Big Wall climber
Bitter end of a bad anchor
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Mar 21, 2018 - 10:21pm PT
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It is just you.
The internet makes all of us more reactive to things that have been going on for a long time.
The urgency of response is alluring, but not necessary.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Mar 21, 2018 - 11:19pm PT
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Does anybody else think the numbers are higher amongst longtime climbers?
I don't know. I've known (and known of) a few long time climber's that cashed in their own chips.
Maybe partly its that older, longtime climbers got into the sport because they didn't fit into the main stream to begin with. Does (or did) climbing attract a higher percentage of folks who are depressed? Or that suffer with depression?
Utah has a fairly serious issue with suicide. 7th highest in the US. Rate of youth here is staggering.
https://health.utah.gov/vipp/pdf/Suicide/youth-suicide-factsheet-12-14.pdf
Serious enough that the legislature considered having parents lock up their guns (the horror!). They did fund crisis hotlines that used to go to voice mail...
Probably not just climbers...
Take care out there.
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Mar 21, 2018 - 11:26pm PT
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“They did fund crisis lines that used to go to voice mail...”
while i didn’t come to a thread about one of life’s deepest tragedies looking for a laugh...
still... there it was...
and a full belly laugh at that.
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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Mar 21, 2018 - 11:49pm PT
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I could not do it. I tried multiple times before I realized I could not. Then I sought help. This is one area where western medicine is better than the alternatives.
The best description of depression I ever heard was that everything could be going absolutely great in my life and I would still feel unsuccessful, unworthy, usless and like a failure. Feeling all that made me feel like I had no alternatives. It was not real but it was my reality. I have done a lot of research about the brain chemistry involved. I fully believe I am not wired right.
I also realized that pot made it worse for me. A hard thing to admit to. I have since learned this is an uncommon but we'll documented side effect for some people. I still suffer from depression but I am no longer sucidal.
I haven't had the guts to try CBD oil to see if it was just the THC that caused me to be so actively suicidal. LOL
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 21, 2018 - 11:50pm PT
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While in college I volunteered at a crisis center and on a 23 county go-out team that helped rural sheriff and police departments with mental health emergencies. There are myriad reasons behind suicide though some common and addressable groupings are possible such as severe depression and teen suicide it's still hard to really pin down. I should think it would be similar to climbers, but with a somewhat greater percentage of folks who might simply decide enough is enough for whatever reason and want to go out on their own terms.
And say what you will about the eccentric collective us, but if you're still on this board at an advanced age then you clearly lived life with some degree of gumption and self-determination. Don't know about you, but I'm personally not prepared to linger in some state of declining and diminished quality of life and am entirely prepared to ensure I don't. YMMV and respect to those who both lived and died on their own terms.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Mar 22, 2018 - 06:40am PT
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I have no idea if suicide is more common among climbers, but I do think we need to be more frank and straight forward about it. The degree of stigma attached to suicide does nothing to deter it.
I think Russ' admonition to "not leave a mess for your friends" is good, but that should also include the psychological mess left behind, not just the physical remains. The whole "death with dignity" movement does a pretty good job with that in the terminal disease end of things.
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