Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 67 of total 67 in this topic |
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 19, 2018 - 02:42pm PT
|
I have dug through my old climbing guidebook collections and located two rare guidebooks to the Shawangunks that pre-date the 1964 Art Gran guidebook. This latter is generally considered the first guidebook to the Gunks. To be precise, it was the first guidebook published by the American Alpine Club that appeared in book format.
The first of these guidebooks is from 1962 and was written by Dave Ingalls, who was a prominent climber in the Gunks during the 60s, both within the Appalachian Mountain Club circles as well as in independent circles. Besides his eastern rock climbing career, Dave went on to climb throughout the US and Canada, and did the first ascent of Catenary Ridge on Mt. Logan. This guidebook by Ingalls is entitled "CLIMBING LIST OF THE SHAWANGUNKS" and has a column that compares different grading systems for the time. The first column is for Art Gran rating (prior to his publishing his 1964 guidebook), the second column is for the IOCA rating (this was the Intercollegiate Outing Club), and the last column is for the AMC rating (Appalachian Mountain club). The latter was dominated by the members from New York area but New Englanders also participated in the Gunks activities at the time.
As an example, the climb Yellow Ridge has a 5- rating from Gran, a G rating from IOCA, and a 6f rating from the AMC. Similarly the climb Jackie has an 5, F and 5- ratings, respectively. Also of interest in this guidebook are the names of some climbs, which apparently were either lost to posterity in the subsequent guidebooks, or had name changes. Examples include "Green Grunge," "Crimson Corner," "High Suspension," "Bee Bit," "Cathedral South," "Adam's Preamble", "Lemon Squeezer," "The Move." Also of interest, some of the names of climbs were spelled differently than in the current generation of guidebooks (from Gran through Williams' series of guidebooks"--examples are "Gene,", "Madame Grunnebaum's Valtze", "Schnuki's Return." Afficionados of Gunks trivia may find this information entertaining!
The Willy Crowther guide was included in the latter part of the IOCA Gunks Rockclimbing Bulletin #6 with a 1964 date. Willy was a prominent rock climber of the day, and also bounced between the IOCA and AMC membership. Besides the route drawings, this bulletin contains he names of "approved" leaders and seconds who were "qualified" to climb in the Gunks. Current climbers may not realize but until the Vulgarians and other Independents came along, it was only possible to climb if you were a pre-approved leader or second, having taken and passed safety classes with either the AMC or the IOCA. Times have certainly changed!
The Crowther route drawings are most likely the earliest examples of rock climbing topos, at least in the American east coast. They illustrate the names and route paths of climbs superposed on line drawings of the cliffs. Included are the Near Trapps, the Trapps and Mohonk. Some of the routes drawn include an IOCA style grade: typically a letter grade of difficulty. Remember that these were the days prior to the accepted 5.0 to 5.10 (at the time) Yosemite Decimal System that later became widely adopted and used in the Gunks.
Again, groupies of climbing histories will find a treasure trove of information in this guide also. For example between Miss Bailey and Baby is identified a climb called "Double Chimney"--I don't believe this appeared ever in subsequent guidebooks.
I will do my best to put some of this material in illustrations, here on this site. However, if anyone wants copies of the entire set of material, I am happy to forward pdf files of them--just email me on this site and I'll follow up.
I hope that the uncovering of this material will stimulate many pleasant memories for those active during this time frame, and for those current climbers, perhaps this material will provide a glimpse into the early development of the gunks as a climbing area. Happy reading!
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 19, 2018 - 02:47pm PT
|
First page of Ingalls 1962 guide
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 19, 2018 - 02:48pm PT
|
Page from 1964 Crowther Gunks guide
|
|
Roots
Mountain climber
Redmond, Oregon
|
|
|
Mar 19, 2018 - 02:54pm PT
|
Great stuff!
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
|
Mar 19, 2018 - 02:55pm PT
|
Wow...great stuff...thanks!
|
|
looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
|
|
|
Mar 19, 2018 - 03:07pm PT
|
Very cool. I love this type of early guidebook material.
|
|
DanaB
climber
CO
|
|
|
Mar 19, 2018 - 03:19pm PT
|
I have a copy of the Ingalls guide, but I'd never seen or heard of the Crowther one. Thanks.
|
|
Ledge Rat
Trad climber
Michigan
|
|
|
Mar 19, 2018 - 03:29pm PT
|
Very cool, thanks for sharing!
Jeff
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Mar 19, 2018 - 07:36pm PT
|
Cool finds. I had a copy of the IOCA guidebook around 1961-2 but the mimeographing was often too faint to decipher. Naturally, many epics ensued, partially because it was hard to read, and partially because Crowther didn't always know where the routes really went. (The diagram for Miss Bailey is an example.) We certainly had no idea what the letter grades meant, and of course there was nothing to indicate protection or lack of it.
I find it a wee bit sad that we are now awash in so much information, and there are so many people around anyway to offer advice, that such adventures are almost entirely a distant memory.
As for climb names, Crowther's Double Chimney is now the Big Chimney. As Roy notes, Gene is no longer Gene, it has been detransgendered back to the original Jean. But Crimson Corner is still alive in all its 5.1 splendor.
|
|
the idle rich
climber
Estes Park, CO
|
|
|
Mar 19, 2018 - 09:41pm PT
|
Roy...I have a reprint of a guide from Appalachia in 1960 by Fritz Wiessner if you want a copy. It's not all that long (6 pages) so I can post here if you like or email it to you. I don't have the Crowther guide but it looks very cool.
|
|
Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
|
|
|
Mar 19, 2018 - 09:53pm PT
|
WOW!This is gonna be good.
Thank you Roy.
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Mar 19, 2018 - 10:22pm PT
|
Very cool - thanks for sharing.
Here is a more readable version of Willie Crowther's topo.
|
|
Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 05:28am PT
|
Hi Roy, Great stuff. I remember climbing with the IOCA crew during my early, pre-Gran guidebook, visits to the Gunks and they were utilizing a graded route list--perhaps one of those you mention, though my very dim recollection is that it was simpler in format than either of them. I'd love copies of what you have (byastream@aol.com).
I also well recall sharing some of those pre-guidebook "epics and adventures" at the Gunks with rgold. Those memories are definitely more enduring than those of most subsequent 'guidebook-aided' climbs over the subsequent decades!
Alan
|
|
Todd Eastman
Social climber
Putney, VT
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 06:44am PT
|
Jeepers! How did you deal with the dinosaurs wandering around the Gunks back then?
|
|
Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 06:58am PT
|
We spoke nicely to them and pointed them to more juicy looking tourists.
|
|
steveA
Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 07:26am PT
|
Roy,
Thanks for putting this on S.T.! In didn't even know W. Crowther was the author of a guide. Many; including myself owe Mr. Crowther much thanks for mentoring fledgling climbers. He really was a great climber BITD, who took the time to teach others.
|
|
Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 07:31am PT
|
Steve, Willie Crowther also wrote the first published guide to Quincy Quarries that same year. Alan
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 20, 2018 - 08:33am PT
|
Following up on previous notes:
(1) The Wiessner Appalachia 1960 article is still available in the AMC journal and in libraries.
(2) There is also the 1966 Joe Kelsey "A Supplement to a climber's guide to the Shawangunks" (the tongue-in-cheek satire that only Kelsey could write)
I'm guessing that somewhere deep in the AMC archives of the NY or New England (Boston) chapters, there might exist lists of climbs in the Gunks. But I don't have specific information on this. Anyone?
Finally, during this period of time, people like Jim McCarthy must have kept some types of records in the pre-Art Gran guidebook days. If Jim you are reading this stuff-- please weigh in on what you can add.
|
|
Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 08:38am PT
|
Kelsey's "Supplement" and his "Accident Report" are both gems---though knowledge of the specific personalities and of Gran's writing style are really necessary for their humor to be fully appreciated---a sadly shrinking audience.
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 09:49am PT
|
Yup, at this point you have to be one of those dinosaurs to get the humor and references.
|
|
wayne burleson
climber
Amherst, MA
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 12:29pm PT
|
Wow! Love old guides, especially Gunks where there is such a rich history.
My first trip to Yosemite was with Will Crowther and a Sierra Club group from Palo Alto. Crowther sent us directly to the Royal Arches that day.
He worked at the now famous Xerox PARC lab which created much of the computer technology we use today.
I also knew him from MIT Outing Club. His Quincy Quarries route, Willy's Walk was a rite of passage on a really nice piece of rock.
I am not too aware of his activities in the Gunks.
But the MIT folks had a tradition for recording and codifying anything and everything...
|
|
looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 01:47pm PT
|
FYI, I do have a Fine++ copy of the Gran Guide with original dust jacket (this guide sadly never made it to the crags, but fortunately for us, it sat on the bookshelf for 54 years).
While nice VG-Fine copies are going for $300 or so, the one on MP seems a little high priced for being in such "used" shape.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 08:40pm PT
|
Rich- Please post the Wiessner guide here.
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 20, 2018 - 08:42pm PT
|
I'll post the Wiessner guide tomorrow.
|
|
the idle rich
climber
Estes Park, CO
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 09:24pm PT
|
Beat you to it Roy.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 09:56pm PT
|
An excellent description of the thing that gave the route Froghead its name which has long been a mystery.
|
|
TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 08:28am PT
|
Thanks to all for posting these. I'm especially impressed by that Crowther sketch, beautiful drawn and clearer than any photograph I've ever tried to follow.
Hopefully the snow will end soon...
TE
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 12:23pm PT
|
Among the various routes mentioned by Fritz, a few have had name changes or have disappeared. One of the interesting ones to me is a route at Millbrook he called "Falcon," described as 250 feet North of the Old Route. I think that is a fairly demanding part of the cliff with a half-dozen 5.10 and above routes and but a single (I think rather burly) 5.9 route (Realm of the Fifth-Class Climber). Although Fritz was probably capable of doing Realm, he hadn't climbed at that level since coming to the US and if he had done it, I think there would have been a huge buzz about it at the time.
So it seems to me that the only possibility in that section that Fritz might have climbed would be Realm up to the beginning of the crux leaning dihedral, a short traverse left to Instant Karma (but I don't know how hard that section is; somewhere on Instant Karma, I think at the top roofs, there is some 5.12), and then back right to Realm at the top of its crux dihedral. That would amount to some bold and clever routefinding through rock that has since taxed climbers at a much higher level.
|
|
Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 12:53pm PT
|
Incredible. I have the Art Gran book. Love the drawings; works of art.
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 21, 2018 - 01:46pm PT
|
Rich, Rich and Al: send me your emails. r.kligfield@comcast.net
|
|
Steven Amter
climber
Washington, DC
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 03:13pm PT
|
This is spectacular stuff. Thanks for posting!
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 03:27pm PT
|
Incredible. I have the Art Gran book. Love the drawings; works of art.
I don't know whether the Gran guidebook is a work of art, but it is most certainly a work of Art.
|
|
the idle rich
climber
Estes Park, CO
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 05:46pm PT
|
Though you can learn something from it, don't take it for Gran ed.
|
|
DanaB
climber
CO
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 06:24pm PT
|
Though you can learn something from it, don't take it for Gran ed.
We know who you are - The Jug is Up.
|
|
Don Paul
Gym climber
Denver CO
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 06:47pm PT
|
That must have been a great moment when Fritz Weisner discovered the Shawangunks glimmering on the horizon. And just a stone's throw away from New York City. Still no better place to learn how to climb, and learn important climbing values, like fear. (lol)
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2018 - 11:58am PT
|
Here are the full set of pages from the Dave Ingalls "CLIMBING LIST OF THE SHAWANGUNKS" with 3/27/62 date.
Page 1
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2018 - 12:00pm PT
|
Ingalls p. 2
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2018 - 12:00pm PT
|
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2018 - 12:01pm PT
|
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2018 - 12:01pm PT
|
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2018 - 12:02pm PT
|
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2018 - 12:39pm PT
|
Posting all 16 line drawings of routes from the Willy Crowther 1964 "IOCA GUNKS ROCKCLIMBING BULLETING #6". Please note that these were produced in mimeographed paper pages -- now over 50 years ago -- so there has been some fading in a few of the areas. Someone can take these pictures and try some modern image enhancement techniques on them to try and improve them. I will post them on the page order in the bulleting in the sections below.
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2018 - 12:40pm PT
|
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2018 - 12:40pm PT
|
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2018 - 12:41pm PT
|
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2018 - 12:41pm PT
|
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2018 - 12:42pm PT
|
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2018 - 12:42pm PT
|
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2018 - 12:43pm PT
|
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2018 - 12:43pm PT
|
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2018 - 12:44pm PT
|
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2018 - 12:44pm PT
|
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2018 - 12:44pm PT
|
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2018 - 12:45pm PT
|
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2018 - 12:45pm PT
|
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2018 - 12:46pm PT
|
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2018 - 12:46pm PT
|
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Mar 24, 2018 - 12:12am PT
|
You're hurting my neck Roy...LOL
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Mar 24, 2018 - 08:22am PT
|
|
|
looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
|
|
|
Mar 29, 2018 - 11:01am PT
|
Dug into a new box and unearthed these.
Somevof these posted above.
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2018 - 05:51pm PT
|
Randy--maybe you could enlarge and post those that are different than the ones previously displayed earlier in this thread? it looks as if you have a few lists that the rest of us may not be aware of. If so, could you identify them please. Thx.
|
|
Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2018 - 07:22am PT
|
At least some, if not all, of what Randy posted is from Shawangunk Grit--which I recall was an informally published 'interim' guidebook that circulated in a period when there was a 'gap' between the publication of the more 'official' guidebooks during which there had been considerable new route development and the freeing of prior aid routes. I forget exactly when this was, but probably between Gran's and the first Williams books.
|
|
looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2018 - 09:59am PT
|
Sorry about the poor (and upsidedown) image (posting from your smart phone has its downsides).
Here are closer shots of the guides, which are of several types:
Picture 1.
1 & 2. Gunks Route Lists (to wit: Climbing List of the Shawangunks & Shawangunk Climb list). These are just that, couple pages of routes lists by area.
3. Pre-Gran Route guide (No Title, but is the 1964 Crowther guide more completely illustrated up-thread).
Picture 2.
4. Another Climbing List with route rating comparisons.
5. An original mimeo Comments on Gran's guide (it takes almost no time for people to chime in with corrections or differences of opinion).
6. Original Shawangunk Grit '84 (obviously of a much later vintage and contains route descriptions of (as it says) 240 newer climbs as a Supplement to the 1980 Wiliams "red" guide.
|
|
Kligfield
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2018 - 08:00pm PT
|
Randy--this is a valuable addition. Putting together the entire thread so far, I come up with the following pre-Gran guidebook "listings:
--1960 Wiessner article in Appalachia
--1962 Dave B. Ingalls list
--1963 Gardner Perry IOCA list
--1964 Willy Crowther IOCA list
The '63 list you posted here is notable that it has most of the climbs included by Gran's 1964 guidebook. Whereas the Willy Crowther IOCA list is notable for being an early version showing line drawings.
I'm not personally familiar enough with the Gunks Grit pamphlet nor its date so maybe others can weigh in to put it in its proper historical and chronologic place.
I'm guessing that there may be others not recorded here, but it is likely that they would come from sources such as other IOCA club members, or possibly from some of the earlier Vulgarians. Certainly I imagine that McCarthy must have kept some type of list. I'll see if I can contact him and unearth something more.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 67 of total 67 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!