Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 09:52am PT
|
Not usually in play in N. America deserts,
I guess you haven’t climbed much in the Pacific Northwest? I bivied once in a waterfall.
Gotta try everything once, eh?
And when I run into canyoneers around here I have a ball. Without fail, they’re clueless
dorks whose main aim seems to be to see how many biners they can festoon their packs
with. And walking miles up the trail in yer harness? Priceless.
“Hey, are yous guys going repelling?”
|
|
Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 10:04am PT
|
http://abc7ny.com/archive/8820099/
This guy died in a waterfall in Zion the day after he took a "repelling" class. Mystery cuz it should have all been fresh in his head/
|
|
Ryan Tetz
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 10:23am PT
|
I hate the system pictured. It's hard to verify visually even if you used it perfectly repeatedly. It's why I don't teach the bowline as a tie in or tie off knot in climbing classes with newer climbers. I've been trained through AMGA certification, NOLS, & rescue rigging via YOSAR, amongst others with a great general curiosity so I've seen a lot of systems.
If you truly need to lower on rappel or anticipate one in a potential situation you should use a munter mule knot as I saw also listed on the referenced canyoneering site as an alternative to this odd ball technique choice. I'd hate to be the last guy that has to rap on the 8 device not clipped off if you are going to leave it in the system as pictured too and re-rigging the anchor otherwise multiple times with new systems seems needlessly complex.
The munter mule is still an advanced technique for the inexperienced, but at least it can be readily visually verified. It should still be tied off and clipped off appropriately. If lowering on it, it should be tended by 2 hands and ideally a prusik off the harness of the person controlling lowering or a 2nd climber's set of hands for redundancy during the lower.
In newbie situations where you anticipate panic/trouble etc on rap (I've actually used this in canyoneering groups I've lead or when guiding at Otter Cliff with 1st timers - Sea cliff top down sites are classic!), you can use the back end of the rope or a 2nd separate rope completely to do a belayed rappel via a munter hitch.
Just put them on a fixed single strand rap directly off the anchor on the main rope, and then tie or clip them in with a locker to the end of the 2nd rope. You now "lower" them with that rope on a munter hitch belayed by you as they rap as normal on the fixed line. This is the classic belayed rap setup. This way they don't need a fireman's belay at the bottom with someone standing in water/or potentially under loose rock fall hazard and they won't be confused using a prusik as a newbie either. If they panic you can easily convert to a raise or lower them the rest of the way with just the munter. I did this with NOLS when we needed to rap some choss canyon or have first time rappelers doing a fairly technical rappel into a canyon.
For otherwise experienced climbers concerned about having to ascend the rope for some reason (the rope isn't long enough on some giant 300' rap or a stuck rope etc), they should carry the basic slings and extra biners to facilitate this and knowledge to use them - or sending the confident experienced person into that situation first if needed.
|
|
clifff
Mountain climber
golden, rollin hills of California
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 10:25am PT
|
I think the complicated system has to do with canyoneers having to (sometimes) descend into full-on waterfalls, and not being able to self-release for whatever reason. The whole drowning thing that doesn't usually exist in climbing...
They don't have to descend into the waterfall. They could climb out to the side somewhere and put in some bolts so the rappel safely avoids the waterfall. It's just that they are so obsessed with Leave No Trace that they will not put in the needed bolts. And this leads to all their dangerous anchors and rappelling methods.
And it also leads to leads to damaging and eventually killing this little shrub pictured up thread.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 10:30am PT
|
That shrub looks bomb compared to the series of weed clusters Texplorer, Scary Larry, and I repeatedly rapped off of on bailing off of a high shoulder of Mt. Wilson.
|
|
Chippychopperone
Social climber
SLC, UT
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 11:04am PT
|
Interesting thread. Condolences to family and friends. I see "advancement" each year through the OR show. New fangled gadgets that are supposed to be better than the time tested techniques and devices used for years and years. People really like to geek out to new knots as well. Simple is smooth, faster, and safer.
Perhaps newbies should only been taught a few knots and to only rap with one or two ropes. Until they climb for years, can they elect to go down this sketchy road of trickery. In fact, when I climb, I don't go along with somebody that says "check out this new technique." I let them prove it to my and perhaps I'll try it out. Figure eight knot, double fishermans knot, atc/locking biner and proper belay techniques are all a newby needs to worry about.
|
|
Climbnrok
Trad climber
LA
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 11:08am PT
|
They don't have to descend into the waterfall.
It seems rapping in the waterfall is a feature, not a bug for these guys.
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 11:22am PT
|
Note to partners: If I ever incorporate a tongue depresser as a key link in a rap anchor please punch me in the face
Ditto!
Such a senseless tragedy. The people who insist on rigging these convoluted contraptions should be the only ones ever subjecting themselves to the risk of failure - weighting them as-is without backup. RIP young lady.
|
|
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 12:47pm PT
|
Imo, there's always a better way than rigging the rap anchor for "perhaps" lowering. If these people are committed to lowering in a particular situation, then why not just flat-out DO the lower rather than this hybrid rap/lower arrangement? Lower the first person down, which establishes rope-length for subsequent raps, and then get on with it.
Anything that might be said about communication problems during the lower would also hold true in the hybrid setup. Use waterproof radios if the "feature" rather than "bug" is to rap IN the waterfall (ALWAYS avoidable if desired!). The hybrid setup is WORSE in such situations, because now you've got to deal with some cluster-fornication (with somebody's life on the line), taking time, while the person is supposedly drowning. Just LOWER the first person and forget about this ridiculous hybrid setup!
Nothing about the provided site-links even starts to convince me that these hybrid setups are superior. The whole mess strikes me as "clever" trickery designed to "solve" a problem that never should emerge in the first place.
And, as we see, the penalty for the trickery not working as intended is death (probably the death of somebody other than the rigger).
|
|
NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 01:21pm PT
|
RIP Joy, and condolences to family and friends. Casey, I wish you peace in coming to terms with a tragic situation.
I offer my input only in hopes of spreading more info to rock climbers not familiar with canyoneering techniques, to dispel ignorance and us/them tribal mentality between rock climbers and canyoneers.
I just got back from 5 days of canyoneer-specific training and running a couple of pretty easy canyons. It is easy as a rock-climber to have a holier-than-thou attitude about knowing rope work and to eschew the techniques of another discipline. Lot's of things were already familiar to me but I definitely learned some new stuff and learned to adjust my perspective for why certain techniques are preferred in a canyon context. After taking these classes, I think canyoneering is like an advanced form of rock climbing in terms of rope rigging, anchoring, and problem solving. There is not a single right way to do things- rather a variety of choices/tools and situations where they are applicable. It is just a more variable environment that calls for more creativity.
Some observations in no specific order:
1. Finding mid-point and rapping off two strands of a single rope (or two strands of tied-together ropes) is typical for climbers but is not a first choice for canyoneers for several reasons:
 Clusterfvck of extra rope at the base of a short rappel to untangle, wasting time to untangle and repack. Doesn't seem like much time to climbers, but if you are doing a 2000 foot descent with bazillions of 30-40 foot rappels, it adds up.
If only one side is rappelled, then the other is available to rig for another member of the party from above to lower down to the stuck/injured member, to lower down some supplies, etc. More options saved in reserve.
2. As I was just taught, the most common approach for rappelling (canyoneer-style) is this: to initiate a single-rope rappel, estimate the distance to the ground, thread the rope through the quick link, and pull out that much rope from the bag and toss; there is ongoing practice to estimate distances and to be able to pull out that specific amount of rope. They get very good at it. Adjust length as necessary to reach the ground. Tie off with a clove hitch on a biner to brake the rope on opposite side of a quick link from the side you are rapping off. But, if there is an inexperienced party member, of if you can't see the rope touching the ground, if you might get a waterfall pounding you, etc... then you tie a backup knot in end of the rope strand to be rapped (e.g. a fisherman's bend) and rig a figure-8 block near the quick link so people above can easily and quickly transition to unlocking the figure-8 block and lowering the person using the figure-8 device. The rest of the rope in the bag is available to lower a person as needed. The rope bag is tossed at this point (not earlier- so as to reduce confusion about which side of the quicklink should be blocked). This method keeps the unneeded part of the rope still stowed in the bag at the base, so it speeds up the repacking and decreases tangling with the rap strand.
According to what I have learned so far (and I am far from an expert at this point), there is not a good use case for only having 10 feet of rope left and tying a figure-8 block. Perhaps the idea at the time was to enable the team to work in parallel and move more quickly- one rigs for rap while other ties on the pull-line. But then the point of figure-8 block (having an option to transition to lowering) is negated because you can't pull the EDK (the bend joining the two different ropes together) through the figure-8 device to lower. Might as well have used clove hitch on a biner as the brake of the rap line, which is cleaner and faster and then the second member could be getting the second rope and tying the EDK while the first is rapping.
While the figure-8 block looks like a mess to a rock climber uninitiated to canyoneering techniques, it is actually pretty easy to rig and about as common for a canyoneer as a climber using an ATC guide on an anchor to belay up a following climber. Totally within the realm of normal rigging. The one danger is that you need to make sure that one of the bights is crossing the big hole of the figure-8 rather than running up the side. A half twist in the rope makes this difference. If that piece is missed, then it could conceivably slip under a load. From the report on canyoncollective:
Casey did not put a twist in the figure 8 block, nor did they secure the small hole of the 8 with a carabiner.
It sounds like this is exactly the mistake that was made. When making the figure-8 block, the rope was not properly twisted to ensure the rope diagonally crossed the big hole, and a biner not placed in the small hole clipped to the pull-side rope. My training emphasized both of these to keep the rope in place for desired functionality. Perhaps the biner was missed because of not having enough rope on the end, waiting for the two ends to be joined.
It's easy to second-guess what actually happened or what a person does in the moment, because there are so many moments for decision-making, balancing efficiency vs. margin of safety, and that is something that makes rock climbing and canyoneering such a fun and rich experience. After careful analysis we might all arrive at a consensus of an optimal approach in a situation and learn from it. But in the moment, there are typically a variety of approaches that make sense with the information available. We would all hate to lose the freedom to take risks in rock climbing, and similarly, we should respect the same right for folks who are into canyoneering as a separate discipline. Sometimes mistakes happen, for unforseeable or for preventable reasons. Sometimes we are tired, have a brain-fart, or for inexplicable reasons just make a mistake- we are human. If we all wanted to be as safe as possible, we would sit on the couch and watch TV or sit behind our computers and type on this forum all day.
But there is much beauty in the world, and rock-climbing specific rope rigging is not sufficient to safely get in and out of some of these places. If you are ignorant from a realm of knowledge, unfamiliar with the problems that are being solved by a set of techniques, not tuned in to the spirit of the activity and what makes it interesting for some of its participants, it is better to listen first and learn before working from your different realm of experience and passing judgment.
Final caveat: I am a canyoneering novice, and a more definitive analysis is sure to be on the canyoncollective website. But I just wanted to provide something in climberish-language so canyoneering perspectives and techniques wouldn't be dismissed out of ignorance.
|
|
BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 01:23pm PT
|
I don't understand how you could rig a one rope rappel which would guarantee that you could lower somebody if the situation required it. It all depends on how long the rappel is and how long your rope is. Clearly, you couldn't do this if it was a 200' rappel and you had a 200' rope.
|
|
NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 01:26pm PT
|
Bruce- this concern about single-strand rappels and assumption of rope-lengths was the biggest question I had going into the training I just did. What I learned was that you should have 3x the amount of rope for the longest drop, spread over two ropes. At least one rope should be double the length of the longest drop. I was also taught a minimum party size of 4 for safety margins (e.g. 1 injured person, 1 stays back, and 2 can safely proceed to exit canyon to a spot with reception or to go get help- you often need to work as a team to get past obstacles). As in any activity, people cut corners on that. I've been assuming I would do canyons with just 2 people like in rock climbing. This illustrates a situation of what can happen if we make that choice.
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 01:32pm PT
|
The tongue depressor continues to make me shudder.
|
|
NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 01:38pm PT
|
I just learned and tried the "fiddle stick" yesterday. Totally solid and ingenious. The main thing to look out for is if the rap anchor can swing around with a bouncing rappeler (learn to not bounce!) when a rock or tree or other obstacle can repeatedly smack end-on into the fiddle stick. It actually takes more force and multiple blows to knock it loose than you would think.
If set up correctly, it is way safer than casually doing a climb with 20 feet between bolts. If the anchor site looks like it can't be done safely, there are other ways to rig retrievable anchors.
The stacked sand bag anchors or counter-weights to get out of a pothole can be pretty sketchy. But it's good to know if you are out of options.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 02:15pm PT
|
I'll skip hand grenades and fiddle sticks.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 02:26pm PT
|
totally solid and ingenious
I thought you were an engineer? Needlessly complicated = solid?
That violates every engineering principle of redundancy.
If something can go wrong it will. Two ropes tied together with a
slip knott are more solid than that rig.
|
|
justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 02:34pm PT
|
EDIT: moved comment to the canyoneering thread where it is more appropriate.
|
|
otisdog
Big Wall climber
Sierra Madre & McGee Creek, Ca.
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 03:34pm PT
|
Wow! After reading the "incident" page on the linked 'RopeWiki' page, I am amazed that this doesn't happen more often. It seems that the canyoneers have an extremely casual attitude about safety. One of the reasons that they rig so as to be easily able to lower people is that sometimes people can't complete the rappel, for whatever reason, so the person at the top lowers them on the figure 8. Lots of accounts of first time rappels, some in waterfalls.
|
|
HF
climber
I'm a Norwegian stuck in Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 04:40pm PT
|
Your first post on this thread was well put, Skip.
Again the only person that may have been able to explain what happened is sadly not able to do so. The last thing her friends and family need is a bunch of strangers spewing out "comments".
Show a little decency and respect.
Hilde Fonda
Joshua Tree, CA
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!