Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 12:39pm PT
|
It's for the "You better know WTF you are doing crowd" ..... :-)
Oh, yeah, I get that. And I can imagine a time/place for the rig. But I'll NEVER feel like I'm fully-enough in the "know WTF you are doing crowd" to ever find myself in that time/place.
LOL
But this accident was 100% the result of absurdly incompetent rigging, and that makes Joy's death an even more tragic loss (if that could be possible).
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 12:40pm PT
|
It's goofiest sh!t I've ever seen.
That's the safety enhanced version, with "the twist" and the keeper-biner.
The actual rig used in the accident is the other shot in Clint Cummins post, taken just before it failed.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 12:47pm PT
|
The first person down on rig like the one failed should have had the rope securely tied off to the anchor.
This is defacto standard procedure.
The last person rigs the rappel for the pull and thus limits the failure to only that person.
I always went last .....
|
|
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 01:00pm PT
|
I always went last .....
Something's gone right, since you're still here. ;-)
IMO, there are some very good ways to get it right. Choose one, stick with it religiously, double-check like it's life or death, and don't deviate.
There are countless ways to get it wrong. But you're right that only the rigger should have gotten the chop!
|
|
Climbnrok
Trad climber
LA
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 01:46pm PT
|
I tagged along for the first time as a +1 on a local socal canyoneering group trip recently and was totally shocked by the level of needless complexity in all the rigging. It's like they are ignoring the last 40 years of climbing technique and gear advances and only reading caving books from the 70s. There were some experienced canyoneers there, but I was the only one that had done actual multi-pitch climbing.
The odd thing was they justified the cluster in the name of safety. They did that convoluted wrapped figure8 jammed up against the rap anchor thing because they think it's MORE safe with the explanation that if you take the one wrap that locks is out then you can lower someone with the remaining rope tail if they get stuck/injured. After about 10 people had rapped off this thing and it was my turn, I played with the rig a little and it would have been damn near impossible to re-rig the figure8 wrap thing for lowering while someone was loading it once it was set like that. Plus it took forever to rig and break down every time for a fixed rap station that was definitely less than half a rope length. The group ahead of us was doing exactly the same stuff. With all the talk of safety there sure were a lot of people leaning back over the edge clipped in with only one ratty sling on one bolt type situations.
|
|
limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 02:12pm PT
|
Why rap on only one rope?
It's standard procedure while canyoneering, if you're near moving water.
I know of at least one climber (who many of you know) that almost drowned on the 7 Teacups down near Kernville because he rapped like a climber.
If you do a double rope rap through moving water the ropes can twist and tangle together, preventing you from rapping and potentially water-boarding you to death mid-rappel. Single rope rap for the first person, then they hold the pull cord out of the way for the following people.
I don't do much "real" canyoneering so someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
Also, if this rap wasn't in water then there's no reason that I can see to not do a double rope rap.
|
|
Inner City
Trad climber
Portland, OR
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 02:52pm PT
|
I've done a fair amount of canyoning and for most canyons the climber technique of 'throw and go' with a doubled rope works fine...but just like any sport, faster and lighter ways have led to a lot of single rope stuff.
The concept of the 'last man at risk' that Werner detailed above is something that is generally accepted practice in canyoneering I believe.
Moving water is a different deal as limping crab said.
"Brian in SLC" is one of the more experienced canyoneers on here I think, he may chime in...but maybe does not want the thread to take a too judgemental turn etc...that couldn't happen could it?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 03:15pm PT
|
Thanks for the explanation BJ .....
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 03:22pm PT
|
Obviously the tail was not secured. I used to climb with a guide who did some kind of funky trick to retrieve the ropes from Ice V threds. I insisted on a back up, refused to go last and never even bothered to learn the trick. It was flat out stupid INMOP. he does not climb anymore as far as I know??
|
|
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 06:25pm PT
|
Looks pretty sketchy to me!
Ropes are not designed to be subjected to ultra-low radius turns like through that fifi hook, not to mention the fact that fifi hooks are "sharp" at the edges of the hole. This is a rope-cut waiting to happen. I mean, this one is just downright stupid.
Imo, all of these single-rope tactics are just "clever" ways to radically increase the chances of dying on rappel. Even in a waterfall situation, it's always safer to send everybody else down a single line tied directly to the anchor, then have the last person rig for retrieval with a 6mm or 7mm cord that's been shepherded down by the second-to-last person and held off to the side from the bottom prior to that final rig.
I seriously cannot imagine the situation in which these "clever" methods are superior.
I CAN imagine some unplanned-for, absolutely desperate situation (like rapping off of a big mountain from which your partner has fallen taking the second rope with him, or one of you dropping the second rope). In such a case, knowing a trick like the Kamikaze knot just MIGHT save your life. But such a situation is the height of desperation, and the idea that you're going to employ such "clever" tricks as just a matter of course seems flat-out insane to me.
I've played around with the Kamikaze knot on a small boulder, enough to feel competent with it, and it does work "reliably." But each time, I looked at it and thought, "There would have to be NO other option before I'd trust my life to this! Being in a situation in which THIS is the best option is just sick!"
To me, that fifi hook horror-show is much worse. And the cluster-fornication that cost this young lady her life is just a classic example of such horror-shows that nobody should be using as a matter of course, even when they are rigged "correctly."
Two ropes. Simple. Reliable. You've got other things to worry about besides the most basic aspect of rigging for rappel. At least make the rope-to-anchor connection absolutely secure! None of these "clever," single-line-retrieval methods do that.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 07:32pm PT
|
Can someone Pls explain WTF happened and how this rig was supposed to work?
I can't understand it at all!
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 07:42pm PT
|
Can someone Pls explain WTF happened and how this rig was supposed to work? I can't understand it at all!
I think the idea is that you carry a normal rope (with a multicolored last 3 meters???) plus some ultra-light cord of the same length. To rappel, you rig rope #1 up the way you see in the pictures, and then tie the shoelace onto the blue bit that drops out of the bottom of the picture.
Once it's rigged, you rap the fat strand (red, in the picture). That big Figure 8 clusterf*#k can't fit through the link, so rapping that side is safe. Once the last person is down, someone pulls the shoelace and brings everything down to wherever it is you've rapelled to.
I can think of twenty-seven safer ways to do it, but what do I know?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 07:44pm PT
|
oooohhh I so like that fifi hook bungee cord setup.
It unhooks sooo easy when you unload the rope.
Rope comes down so nice and easy.
No jerking around, fast and efficient ......
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 07:51pm PT
|
Once the last person is down, someone pulls the shoelace and brings everything down to wherever it is you've rapelled to.
Probably would work, too. Until the day when that figure-eight cluster-wad gets stuck on something on its way down, and all you and your partner have to yard on is 200' of paracord.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 07:56pm PT
|
Thank you, Chaz. IT ISN’T SIMPLE! IT’S RETARDED!
|
|
Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2018 - 08:21pm PT
|
Note to partners: If I ever incorporate a tongue depresser as a key link in a rap anchor please punch me in the face
|
|
Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 07:35am PT
|
Hooblie, good site with an easily understood explanation of the knot. I notice, however, that the twist in the bight that is fed over the end of the figure eight device vanishes in later photos. Isn't the twist necessary to tighten the knot? Wasn't this lack of a twist implicated in the fatal fall?
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 09:29am PT
|
I think the other, and more likely use is such: the first individual raps down on a single line of one half the rope length. The folks on top have full access to the other half, and the ability to lower the rappeller using the other half of the rope is a point of massive OCD with canyoneers.
Having now read Hooblie's link, above, it looks like you're right.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!