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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Mar 22, 2018 - 03:11pm PT
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DON'T rap down the waterfall! (Really? There is NO other way down into the canyon than via the waterfall???)
Some people would also advise DON'T climb mud. ;-)
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Ratagonia
Social climber
Mt Carmel, Utah
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Mar 22, 2018 - 03:12pm PT
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You re-framed your challenge, and I believe I met your reframe. But you are correct - my original claim was excessive.
However, it is also clear that all climber deaths and accidents do not make the paper. And are we talking worldwide, or just North America?
And I have other things to do.
Tom
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Mar 22, 2018 - 03:14pm PT
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Dude, I can't think of one thing cavers have borrowed from canyoneers. As little as I know about canyoneering I would venture caving has been around far longer.
You could have easily wrote butchers and bakers died canyonneering so better technique was sought.
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Ratagonia
Social climber
Mt Carmel, Utah
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Mar 22, 2018 - 03:15pm PT
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"You haven't even STARTED to make the case that voodoo SRT are superior, and I believe that I HAVE made the case that for every motivation you can give for voodoo SRT, there is a more straightforward, safer way to rig with two ropes. And, I believe that I have made the case that what motivates the voodoo SRT in the first place can ONLY be guaranteed to work if you bring along two ropes worth of length anyway."
Proving one of my points. Things we are familiar with are simple; things we are not familiar with are complicated.
Since you, Madbolter, swim in a DRT ocean, you very apparently cannot imagine doing otherwise.
Tom
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 22, 2018 - 03:18pm PT
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You re-framed your challenge, and I believe I met your reframe.
I don't think so, but that's a trite point to argue about.
But you are correct - my original claim was excessive.
Thank you for the honest admission. That's more than most people at the Taco Stand can manage. Kudos!
However, it is also clear that all climber deaths and accidents do not make the paper. And are we talking worldwide, or just North America?
Does it really matter? I've been citing North American stats. But the overarching point is that these voodoo canyoneering tactics sure appear to be unmotivated when whatever problem they are intended to solve can be more straightforwardly solved by standard rock-climbing tactics that have stood the test of decades.
And I have other things to do.
Cheers!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 22, 2018 - 03:23pm PT
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Some people would also advise DON'T climb mud. ;-)
LOL
Point taken. Although, the difference I see here is that getting into the canyon is ostensibly the goal, which doesn't imply choosing the waterfall.
Now, IF the goal is instead: "Go right down the waterfall for it's own joys," then I believe I've answered that one just upthread. It's still going to be safer to adopt a standard two-rope tactic straight out of rock-climbing, or it's going to be safer to just full-on lower everybody except that last person, who is screwed if they get stuck on rap no matter what rope tactics are employed. No voodoo SRT is going to save that person's butt.
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RussianBot
climber
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Mar 22, 2018 - 03:24pm PT
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Ratagonia is as good as it gets, and if we’re not going to believe him, we might want to ask ourselves why, or just go learn to be better than he is at it, if we think that’s something we can do.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 22, 2018 - 03:30pm PT
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you very apparently cannot imagine doing otherwise
Oh, I don't know. I have a pretty good imagination.
I simply don't see the superiority of rigging one of these over-complicated voodoo raps on the slim chance that somebody will need to be lowered, when you can more easily just go straight at lowering if the odds of needing to are really that significant.
You seriously cannot be claiming that a Munter-Mule or f8-block is LESS complicated than just tying the rope directly into the anchor! If you are trying to float that claim, then, really, I just think that canyoneering will have to endure its own painful evolution of people dying until canyoneers start asking THEMSELVES (they apparently won't listen to anybody else!) why people are regularly screwing up such "simple" tactics.
For the moment at least, it appears that there are so few practitioners that flash floods are killing the lion's share of those who die. As it becomes more popular, that WILL change.
But I do believe we have reached the point in this discussion in which it's no longer reasonable to assert that rock-climbers just aren't competent to objectively evaluate the pros/cons of various rigs.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 22, 2018 - 03:31pm PT
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Ratagonia is as good as it gets, and if we’re not going to believe him, we might want to ask ourselves why, or just go learn to be better than he is at it, if we think that’s something we can do.
LOL
Now I believe that you've just been trolling all along.
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RussianBot
climber
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Mar 22, 2018 - 03:34pm PT
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Who in their right mind goes around soloing El Cap? Maybe someone with a more impressive mind than I have.
Sure, we’re all really impressed with our own mind. Probably for good reasons, regardless of how impressive our minds are.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 22, 2018 - 03:37pm PT
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^^^ I'm good, thanks.
If you don't like the trend of the discussion, I can recommend a nap to you also. Maybe in your dreams, voodoo tactics will be adopted by all rock-climbers as well, as their superiority shines forth with a golden glow.
But then you'll wake up.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 22, 2018 - 03:42pm PT
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Just waiting around to hear the scenario in which voodoo canyoneering tactics are the way, the truth, and the life. Still hoping to more quickly push forward the evolution of canyoneering tactics toward the KISS principle that will save lives.
There's no eliminating human error; but there is reducing its incidence via the KISS principle.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 22, 2018 - 03:49pm PT
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Stop impugning my motives.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Mar 22, 2018 - 03:54pm PT
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I'm not impugning your motives. I'm observing your total ignorance
Stuck on an overhanging rappel underwater is a pretty standard possibility in Canyoning
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Mar 22, 2018 - 03:55pm PT
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I was fooling around with that knot; better make sure you put the twist in it....... Is that what she missed?
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RussianBot
climber
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Mar 22, 2018 - 03:58pm PT
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I don’t expect that you need any advice from me mb1, but just declare victory and go home. If you’ve already concluded that Bachar’s reasons for taking risks are objectively righter than a canyoneers’ reasons, you’ve already done so anyway. I’m sorry, I think I suffer from that same kind of stuff too.
Thanks for your expert opinion Tom.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 22, 2018 - 04:07pm PT
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I'm not impugning your motives. I'm observing your total ignorance
Stuck on an overhanging rappel underwater is a pretty standard possibility in Canyoning
I was referring to monolith, not you.
Regarding your "standard possibility" case, it still doesn't make the case for voodoo rope tactics.
If the odds are that high that a lower is going to be necessary, then how much rope should you have available in the system? Obviously, double the projected rap. Anything less produces the real possibility of coming up short. So, effectively, two rope lengths are needed anyway.
And in this sort of scenario, what's the upside to voodoo tactics instead of just outright lowering each person. Again, as I said upthread, the last person cannot be lowered by ANY means, so the voodoo tactics are irrelevant to the last person. We're talking about everybody prior to the last person. For all of those people, the risks of the rap appear to be so high that somebody at the anchor should be doing controlled lowers! Again, waterproof radios are very useful regardless of tactics employed.
The worst part of the voodoo tactics is that, particularly in the case of the f8-block, it's not trivial to get the weighted, pinched rope out of the "block" and into lower configuration. Meanwhile, under duress to make it happen, it becomes even harder, while the person in the waterfall is presumably drowning. So, why not go straight at controlled lowers from the start!?!
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Mar 22, 2018 - 05:35pm PT
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So, why not go straight at controlled lowers from the start!?!
Why don't we just set up top ropes and hoist each other up the rocks instead of all that sketchy leading with sketchy gear nonsense? There are much safer ways to get to the top of rocks, especially with other people carrying you. I thought the point of climbing was to get to the top of rocks?
Sorry, I'm not much of a canyoneer so it only makes sense to defer to the two canyoneers on this thread when there's an argument about canyoneering technique.
Kinda like it's hard to anticipate every obstacle you might encounter while climbing without actually climbing for a long time.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 22, 2018 - 06:31pm PT
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^^^ So, your argument now seems to be that these voodoo rigs are designed TO introduce risk, because, well, rapping down a waterfall isn't risky enough, so canyoneers are intentionally adding even more "excitement" to the game.
It seems that we need to be clear about what "the game" is. I didn't realize that intentionally contrived, over complicated rappel rigs was part of how this game is defined. I thought that the game was to negotiate canyons WITHOUT unnecessary risk. Silly me. I thought that if there were better ways to reliably rope people into canyons that the canyoneers would be all over that.
But, you seem to be saying that perhaps they are SEEKING less reliable ways and just calling those ways "more reliable" to hide from outsiders what the game really is. As outsiders, we're not capable of understanding what the game really is. Must be like a secret handshake or something, I guess.
I keep asking for enlightenment, but what I keep hearing is: "Once you're on the inside, you'll know." Sounds suspiciously like the "conversion experience" to me, but, then, of course I can't know until I've also learned the secret handshake.
Sadly for me, I guess, I'm just not interested in drinking that Kool-aid. So, I'll just accept my perpetually unenlightened status, bow out, and hope that canyoneering gets on a fast track toward evolving KISS tactics. Again, when enough people die from screwing up "the obvious," that community will have to have some internal conversations. They'll all know the secret handshake, so they can trust each other's opinions without any fear of outsider opinions, since it appears that they don't cotton to outsiders questioning their superlative methods.
All the best!
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Ratagonia
Social climber
Mt Carmel, Utah
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Mar 22, 2018 - 06:41pm PT
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