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Ratagonia
Social climber
Mt Carmel, Utah
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Mar 22, 2018 - 12:44pm PT
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I realize that canyoneering, since it involves ropes and carabiners etc., is a subject that climbers might think they know something about. Not really, as this thread makes clear.
Modern canyoneering technique (focusing on single rope technique) came about because a bunch of experienced, skilled climbers and cavers were dying when they got into canyons. Yes, the overall method is crucial when descending flowing streams in the waterflow, which to canyoneers is like climbing 20 feet out from that last micro-cam - where the rubber meets the road. It is important to practice skills even when they are not needed right then.
I realize that the properly rigged and safetied Figure 8 block looks like a ClusterF, and not just because of the rainbow rope. It is standard practice in much of the world, and is quick and easy to install and inspect, and offers valuable technical features. It is standard practice because it works. We (canyoneers) are perplexed as to why these two experienced, competent canyoneers chose to use a different system of lesser reliability.
Before canyoneering, I climbed for 30 years, and did fairly well for a climber with zero natural talent. Two trips up the Captain, most of Denali, thousands of climbs across the USA. My ropework improved enormously when I became a canyoneer, took a few courses, learned a new system. Any system you do not understand looks like a mess from outside. No surprise there.
Comment all you like... most of the comments just demonstrate a lack of understanding. Condolences appreciated. A sad event. As a wise man once said - "Do it right, or take the flight". Which applies to all of us, every time we go out.
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Ratagonia
Social climber
Mt Carmel, Utah
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Mar 22, 2018 - 12:49pm PT
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And just to be clear, there are climber deaths every month that would have been avoided by using Single Rope Technique, and other skills transferable from canyoneering. I read ANAM, and just shake my head.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Mar 22, 2018 - 01:13pm PT
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"Modern canyoneering technique (focusing on single rope technique) came about because a bunch of experienced, skilled climbers and cavers were dying when they got into canyons."
Don't know what cavers you were talking about but if cavers had problems in canyons then they would have problems in caves.
Let me put it like this... I show you our toughest caves and you show me your toughest canyons and we will see who can traverse what!
Inexperienced cavers dying in canyons is more like it.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 22, 2018 - 01:26pm PT
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Comment all you like
No point, obviously. You've just done exactly what NutAgain did: Entirely shut down comments with the trump-all assertion that we don't know what we're talking about.
In the face of that shut-down, how dare we even try?
But, amazingly, there is a hope for a stab at it.
As in rock climbing, one should employ the best rig for the situation, and the KISS principle is a major consideration in what counts as "best."
Yeah, climbers die. Human error plays a part in many of those deaths. Yet our per-capita death-ratio is better than, say, golf. In 2013, for example, 25 people died while "climbing" in the entire USA and Canada combined. Given the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people "climbing" in that year and the number of pitches climbed (including snow/ice/big-mountains), I think that our safety record is actually pretty spectacular. And there's a good reason why you are statistically safer while rock climbing than while driving to the climb or golfing: KISS, the details of which have evolved in rock climbing for over 100 years.
For example, there's a reason why the "weaker" f8-follow-through is almost universally preferred over the stronger bowline for the tie-in. The strength difference is entirely irrelevant with modern climbing ropes, and the ease of at-a-glance double-check for the f8-follow-through trumps other considerations. It's a simpler knot for most people to master, and a partner can double-check it at a glance. That sort of thing saves lives, since most practitioners are not and never will be experts.
Thus, the KISS principle continues to make sense, and it makes sense in canyoneering as well: NEVER use a more complicated tactic when a less complicated one will serve just as well. In canyoneering (particularly as it grows in popularity), as in climbing, most practitioners are not and never will be experts. So KISS saves lives.
And the f8-block just shouldn't be used at all, because (as noted upthread) there are better rigs to convert-to-lower for those occasional circumstances when that approach is deemed best.
Of course, canyoneering has really only had a few decades to evolve, so "best" is necessarily going to be a moving target as it continues to evolve. But KISS should rank high among the considerations.
If you are defending canyoneering tactics in general, more power to you. But if you are defending the f8-block in particular, well, I just don't see how you get that off the ground.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 22, 2018 - 01:27pm PT
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And just to be clear, there are climber deaths every month that would have been avoided by using Single Rope Technique, and other skills transferable from canyoneering.
Please DO elaborate!
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Ratagonia
Social climber
Mt Carmel, Utah
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Mar 22, 2018 - 01:29pm PT
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Caveman - such arrogance.
My apologies if your cave history background does include the Pyrenees in the 60's and 70's.
But I think you did a good job of proving my point.
Tom
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Ratagonia
Social climber
Mt Carmel, Utah
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Mar 22, 2018 - 01:35pm PT
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They did not use the standard rigging for a Figure 8 Block. They used something else. It failed, in the manner that the complications on the Fig8 Block are designed to prevent. They did not use the complications. The complications are not required most of the time.
So yes, I am defending the Figure 8 block, properly rigged. Many people use it as their SOP.
And yes. All this pontificating is much easier for people of limited imagination. [/unnecessary provocation]
Tom
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 22, 2018 - 01:38pm PT
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KISS precludes imagination.
Why are canyoneers so obsessed with lowering someone. I’ve done a hell of a lot of alpine
climbing and I’ve never had to consider having to take over a partner’s rappel in mid-flight.
Sure, guys do get bonked mid-rappel but not often enough to use that voodoo sh!t.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 22, 2018 - 01:39pm PT
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All this pontificating is much easier for people of limited imagination.
So, enlighten us. Don't just posture and make strident assertions.
You've said that climbers die every month because they don't use single-rope tactics. Give us some examples (and please prove that "every month" claim).
Oh, and while you're at it, please explain the situation (ANY) in which the f8-block (properly rigged) is superior to the Munter-Mule (properly rigged).
You've got some splaining to do!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 22, 2018 - 01:43pm PT
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Why are canyoneers so obsessed with lowering someone? I’ve done a hell of a lot of alpine
climbing and I’ve never had to consider having to take over a partner’s rappel in mid-flight.
Sure, guys do get bonked mid-rappel but not often enough to use that voodoo sh!t.
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RussianBot
climber
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Mar 22, 2018 - 01:52pm PT
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Sure. And canyoneers who don’t know about climbing think climbers are stupid too. I don’t really expect us to ever see the truth about ourselves, either.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 22, 2018 - 01:56pm PT
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And canyoneers who don’t know about climbing think climbers are stupid too.
I actually really doubt that. I doubt that sweepingly climbers think that canyoneers are stupid.
Such assertions contribute nothing to reasoned dialog.
You care to take up the challenge I just posed? Please explain ONE incident in which single-rope tactics would have saved the life of a climber who was using double-rope tactics (properly-rigged, of course, so we can compare apples to apples).
Edit: SO few climbers die each year from all causes, that I seriously doubt that there are even one per month that die rappelling, much less because they didn't use single-rope tactics. But, seriously, I beg to be enlightened (not postured at).
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Mar 22, 2018 - 02:01pm PT
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Why are canyoneers so obsessed with lowering someone
It's mostly for situations involving running water. I've witnessed one incident where being able to lower a rappeller probably saved them from drowning when their rap device got stuck and they couldn't see what was going on.
Tom/Ratagonia, posting above, knows what's he's writing about.
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RussianBot
climber
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Mar 22, 2018 - 02:13pm PT
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Sorry mb1. Bad choice of word.
Sure. And we could say the same about what Bachar did, or what Honnold does, if we were so inclined.
But they’re just going to go do what they do for the reasons that they do it, despite the awesomeness of our reasoning and understanding.
But really, I think, we’re the ones who just don’t understand it, and we don’t have the humility to admit that, for the reasons that we don’t have the humility. And I expect that we probably have good reasons, too.
If you really want to understand, go do a couple hundred canyons. Go be someone who wants to be a canyoneer instead of someone who wants to be a climber.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Mar 22, 2018 - 02:15pm PT
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Hmmm... Most of this thread kinda reads like the comments on news websites about climber fatalities. Lots of opinions about the participants from people with limited experience followed by the occasional experienced voice.
Not a bad thing, quite entertaining and educational actually!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 22, 2018 - 02:19pm PT
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WBraun just told us a climber died because of the inability to lower. There's your ONE incident.
The point is that there is invariably some way to handle the situation without the assertion that one-rope tactics are generally superior. If the party Werner mentioned lacked the gear/imagination to do so, I'm extremely dubious that some canyoneer tactic would have saved the day.
However, we really don't know, because Werner did not tell us ABOUT the incident; he just mentioned that it occurred. The devil is in the details! Let's hear the details.
It has been asserted that there is such an incident at least every month, so there should be a full-on plethora of details!
And what you are going to find is that there are vanishingly FEW incidents in which the case could even get started that one-rope tactics are superior!
Here's the problem with the supposed superiority of one-rope tactics:
A stuck canyoneer needs to be lowered 60 feet. But the rope was rigged to only provide for 40 feet of lower-out. Solution: Rig for a longer lower-out. Well, how long? Well, that's unknown, because, obviously, a rope that reaches from the anchor to the bottom isn't long enough. Solution: Bring a much longer rope than could be needed, so that there is always enough extra to lower all the way, because one can't know where in the rap the person might get stuck.
But now you've just gotten the case to ALWAYS have two ropes: One to rap on, and the other attached to the rappelling person, so that the stuck person can just transfer to the second line. After all, you have to bring double the "needed" rope anyway, since you can't know in advance how long of a lower-out you might have to employ.
Oh, problem! In a waterfall, the two ropes might get tangled. Solution: DON'T rap down the waterfall! (Really? There is NO other way down into the canyon than via the waterfall???) Solution: Go straight to lowering each person; no rap for anybody but the last person. That last person is screwed if he/she gets stuck under ANY scenario, so the lower-out rig is meaningless for the last person anyway. (Use waterproof radios!)
The point is that there is always a more straightforward, safer way than having everybody in the party use these voodoo tactics!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 22, 2018 - 02:22pm PT
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But really, I think, we’re the ones who just don’t understand it, and we don’t have the humility to admit that
No, there's a big difference here. What, say, Honnald does is a calculated risk that does not reflect the mainstream tactics of the climbing community. What the canyoneers here are asserting is that their MAINSTREAM tactics are superior.
Yet, their tactics seem inordinately complicated, easy to screw up, and that fact seems to have been the significant contributor to the death of a young lady.
I, for one, find concerning that the TACTICS are defended as both mainstream and superior. That's the case I'm waiting to hear made.
So far all I hear is hand-waving and unsubstantiated assertions.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 22, 2018 - 02:31pm PT
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Wait a minute, who in their right mind goes around looking for sketchy rappels,
especially in some shitty canyon? I go out of my way to avoid rappelling.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 22, 2018 - 03:02pm PT
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Clearly also, more careful rigging of a double-rope rappel would have prevented these accidents too, but...
Fail.
Your claim was that at least once per month climbers died BECAUSE they didn't use single-rope (voodoo) tactics! ALL you've provided is a list of people who screwed up and who quite apparently would have screwed up any rig. You can't entirely fix human error. What you CAN do is adopt tactics that are less likely, not more likely, to be screwed up.
You haven't even STARTED to make the case that voodoo SRT are superior, and I believe that I HAVE made the case that for every motivation you can give for voodoo SRT, there is a more straightforward, safer way to rig with two ropes. And, I believe that I have made the case that what motivates the voodoo SRT in the first place can ONLY be guaranteed to work if you bring along two ropes worth of length anyway.
I'm still waiting to hear the case in which voodoo SRT SHOULD have been the go-to rig from the start!
Edit: actually, it bears emphasis HOW bad of a fail your list really was. In 1/3 of your cited cases, nobody died. In all of them the error was easily preventable, NOT a function of the use of two ropes instead of one. If you don't knot the end of your rappel rope when you're higher than one rope-length from the ground, you are really rolling the dice in a completely unnecessary way. In short, your list entirely fails to explicate, and it entirely fails to substantiate your claim that once-a-month some climber dies BECAUSE they did not use voodoo single-rope canyoneering tactics.
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