agency, power and freedom...

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High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 13, 2018 - 07:02am PT
...in goal-directed organisms.

This one's for you, eeyonkee...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUyU3lKzoio

On display: constraints and limitations, control (systems control), power (capability, can do power), freedom (in fully-caused deterministic systems), types or varieties of freedom, decision-making, variation (organismal), incapability, collaboration.

Apparently those little buggers only weight 25lbs.

...

"My timeline is full of people scared of robots."
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Feb 13, 2018 - 07:05am PT
My timeline includes trolling robots



DMT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2018 - 07:16am PT
Wow!

that's pretty cool. I can imagine a lot of potential in that medium. Or rather, those media (gel plus water hydraulics plus water environ). Ingenious!

Exciting times.


...


Wait. But "goal-directed"? How could that be? After all, these robots are simply "just" executing a set of "is" statements. Right?

Where is the "goal-directed" aspect? Whence comes the "ought"?



re: is vs ought

1. Silver is a better conductor of electricity than lead. (IS statement)
2. We ought to go skiing today. We ought to help these people. (OUGHT statements)

You cannot derive an ought from an is (so we're told).

Or can you? :)
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Feb 13, 2018 - 07:44am PT
“is” and “ought” seems like a false dichotomy. To me, “is” statements form rules and inputs to a system, while “ought” statements are outputs. You populate a bunch of “is statements” to describe a system that operates on dynamic environmental inputs, and you have probabilistic outputs attached to different input triggers to form the “ought” behaviors, and you can end up with highly variable output that is indistinguishable from a chaotic and messy human.
WBraun

climber
Feb 13, 2018 - 07:54am PT
The ultimate timeline of HFCS illusionary consciousness is more and more bondage masqueraded as freedom and advancement .......
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 14, 2018 - 07:21am PT
NutAgain,

“is” and “ought” seems like a false dichotomy. To me, “is” statements form rules and inputs to a system, while “ought” statements are outputs.

...

It seems to me when we're discussing the famous - or infamous - "is vs ought" topic esp as it relates to computer programs, robotic systems or living organisms, the OUGHT is reflected by, or else incorporated into, the IS statement either by the designer/programmer in the case of the robot, as exemplified above, or by natural selection in the case of living things.

At the level of the human, the "ought" is rendered often as a moral or morality: We must (ought to, should) help these people.

RE: "ought” statements vis a vis outputs

It seems to me the IS and OUGHT work together reflexively in "designed" systems (by Man, by Mother Nature) to help render a system output.

It's too bad Hume couldn't spend some time in the 21st century, I bet he'd love to explore further his IS vs OUGHT dichotomy (esp in relation to evolutionary theory, systems control theory, etc) and further elaborate on it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem


Wording it differently... a system designer has in mind beforehand the features, functions or goals she's trying to implement. Toward this end she shapes/steers the parameters, program, whatever - thereby incorporating into the IS the OUGHT! (almost as if my magic or the invisible hand).
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Feb 14, 2018 - 07:49am PT
There is some minimal entertainment to be gleaned from watching armchair philosophers at "work."
WBraun

climber
Feb 14, 2018 - 08:13am PT
HFCS doesn't have a clue to the difference between a living entity and its material coverings.

He thinks his coat is himself and that is the downfall of his freedom and his misunderstanding of life itself ........
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Feb 14, 2018 - 08:14am PT
Labcoat Sausages!

"That one is Soylent Green!"


DMT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 14, 2018 - 08:36am PT
The is-ought topic and its understanding is no longer philosophy, at least not academically; it's now, for many, straight up science and engineering.

I like to think if Hume didn't live a pre-evolutionary timeline, he might have become an evolutionary psychologist, systems control engineer... or perhaps even an inter-disciplinary blend of the two... or blend of many.

This change is imperceptible... -Hume

but nonetheless grok-able... in the context of (goal-directed) design (systems design, organismal design) either by engineer or evolution, in modern times.

Hume's Guillotine: The complete severing of "is" from "ought".

...

Soylent Green, Kim Jong Un... pretty funny.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Feb 14, 2018 - 09:55am PT
are we talking about predictive analytics?

aren't "we" only interested in clicks/purchases and who lives/dies?

all the aspirational talk is typically just that, no?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Feb 14, 2018 - 11:05am PT
it's now, for many, straight up science and engineering

As is absolutely everything, on your model.

LOL... have fun with that. I know that you are. :-)
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Feb 14, 2018 - 11:55am PT
Thanks for that first link, HFCS. Reminds me of one of the episodes of Black Mirror this season. It was a scary one -- like a little doggie terminator. I don't feeling like playing around in these threads anymore. I'll stick my science reading.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 14, 2018 - 12:11pm PT
I have been amazed by the progress by the Boston Dynamics robots.

Can you not see the application in military clearing operations, where you go door to door?

On top of which, just the appearance of such robots would scare the bejeezus out of opponents.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Feb 14, 2018 - 01:27pm PT
I just read a review of that Black Mirror episode, Metalhead, that I mentioned in my previous post. Turns out, according to Black Mirror creator, Charlie Booker, this episode was inspired by these robotics videos by Boston Dynamics. How about that.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Feb 14, 2018 - 05:06pm PT
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Feb 14, 2018 - 05:27pm PT
I have been amazed by the progress by the Boston Dynamics robots.

Can you not see the application in military clearing operations, where you go door to door?

Have you ever seen the movie Terminator?

DMT
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Feb 14, 2018 - 06:06pm PT
Programable Bullet.
Think Optics. Rochester.



Just saying
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Feb 15, 2018 - 07:55am PT
Whoa, Jim. Thanks for that. The result of some university robotics challenge? I can't imagine the work that went into making that "band." So the bots can play, but can they rock? Do they dig the head banging?

BAd
WBraun

climber
Feb 15, 2018 - 08:18am PT
The gross materialists all want to play God.

Thus they manipulate the inferior gross material elements into inferior objects.

The gross materialists have all qualities of God but not the quantity since they are part parcel of God.

Thus they can never create life itself.

Life itself the gross materialists are completely clueless to thus they are stuck with creating inferior imitations of life ......
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