Consciousness and Levels of Awareness

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TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 31, 2018 - 07:34pm PT
We been having a long series of interesting and well researched discussions in this forum on the general topic of how the mind and consciousness arises as an unusual and localized emergent property of the physical brain. These discussions have spanned physics, quantum physics, biochemistry, mathematics, network mapping, neurophysiology, astrophysics, cosmology, psychology, psychiatry, optics and holographic projections, sensory physiology, virtual reality and artificial and augmented intelligence (VR/AI/AR, my own field of professional experience), reincarnation, cosmic consciousness, hallucinogenics, trans-humanism, the occult, conspiracy theories ... the list goes on ...

One conclusion seems to be that we have some pretty smart people among the rock climbing crowd!

However no significant level of consensus of basic understanding seems to have been reached on those threads and many of the sub-discussions seem to be running in circles for some 20,000 postings. Reality designed by a committee! My personal opinion as to why is that the subject is being approached backwards...hence this thread to look at it from the other direction...not about the five senses or the brain or the mind, but about consciousness and levels of awareness and possible implications to be learned ...

On several occasions I have politely tried to steer discussions in the direction of accepting that there is in fact the presence and existence of consciousness and awareness, so perhaps we could discuss an existing observable truth about which much can be learned beyond speculation as to how it can even be present. Such discussions so far have invariably been driven straight off the rails by collapsing back into discussions about how consciousness is created from the material universe. So long as that fixed opinion is held, there is little further exploration of awareness.

So if that is you, please carry on with the other related threads! If you are convinced that the material universe is real and all there is, with emergent strange glimmers of mind, intelligence, consciousness, and awareness; then this is not the thread for you. So please don't clutter it up with brilliant information and comments that belong on the other threads. I do appreciate your information and comments over there. And I can already easily imagine the nature of some comments that could be made on this thread as we have already heard them many times. So just chalk this thread up as woo woo and carry on elsewhere ...

However if you are another one of those who observe that consciousness is ubiquitous and there are many levels and properties of awareness and intelligence that are worthwhile understanding and so inspire learning the skills to control these on a personal level, then I'd really like to see your participation in a discussion here.

I am convinced that I don't know much, but I do know enough to be really interested in this topic.

My personal oversimplified opinion based upon the works of others plus my personal observations and experiences is that consciousness or infinite awareness is basic to everything and the source from which is derived the material universe. My opinion on cosmology is that consciousness creates a field of energy and creates vibration patterns within that field by observing it. The creation of a vibrational thought form allows materializing that form as an aspect of the material universe.

There appear to be many levels of awareness that are related to the broad bands of vibrational frequencies. These levels of awareness can be mapped out and understood and related to frequency patterns. Operating within the material universe, it appears that operating as an individual within certain bands is able to greatly enhance abilities and results. One term commonly heard in adventure sports is being 'in the zone'.

People tend to be trapped in particular patterns, commonly termed as The Matrix. Our society is heavily infused with a cacophony from many noise sources. Anger, hatred, pain, fear, tend to form the bars of the cage. An individual impinged by such negative emotions and reflecting them back to their source, thus becomes the other pole of a standing wave of negative energy, to which the individual is contributing their own energy ... thus creating the bars of their own prison in The Matrix.

However it is possible to free personal consciousness to various levels and by various methods such as sedentary meditation and hallucinogenics ...neither of which seems to be a great method alone. Motion is medicine and going to the wilderness mountains, deserts, and oceans is one way to try and escape the noise and expand awareness. The natural environment tends to be the great healer.

I look forward to your shared creative thoughts
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2018 - 08:27pm PT
I've used the analogy in the past that the material universe is like foam on the ocean of infinite awareness ... and we devote all our attention to understanding that foam, while paying very little attention to the ocean. We have an extensive and admirable understanding of the physics of that patch of material foam.


So I'd like to expand with a similar takeoff to that analogy. Figure our civilization is like a ship on the ocean. This material ship has little round portlights with views looking out across the sunny ocean of infinite awareness.

However I is stuck partway on the outside with feet dangling in the breeze and sea spray, looking into the interior of the ship through one of those little limited view portlights, which it considers to own as it's physical body. I can reach in through the open port and effect a few things in the ships interior and interact with others who are similarly stuck.

I can get all tied up in thinking there is no reality outside of this narrow view and limited ability to change a few things nearby. Since I doesn't look over its shoulder, there is no awareness of the ocean of infinite awareness to which I is connected just outside of the portlight. When I learns to meditate and catches glimpses of the light coming in from the ocean, it all seems a bit scary...

When I dies, I drops away from the portlight and swims again in the ocean of infinite awareness.

Then a big shark comes along and tosses I up into another portlight, we call it reincarnation. The shark is trying to own I and doesn't want I to remember about the ocean of infinite awareness.

However an enlightened I has the ability to either look into the limited space-time of the ships interior, or to gaze out across the limitless ocean ... a matter of choice ... not a trap. Sometimes I tries to get others to take a glimpse outside....

An especially enlightened I learns all about how to avoid feeding itself to sharks.
Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Jan 31, 2018 - 08:46pm PT
I am catching your drift here Tom. Can you boil this down to one paragraph we can sink our teeth into.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 31, 2018 - 08:47pm PT
As I press forward along this trajectory, with some nice success too, I have recently discovered this one:

Higher levels of awareness requires a high level of self discipline.


One must focus and set the course at a high tide of awareness, then press on with discipline against the whims and reaction that pummels us into doing things that erode our awareness.

As I compare this to others who have achieved great things, I tend to find it to be true.

There are always arguements that great minds had great flaws, however, it was not the flaws that made them great, but the opposite.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2018 - 08:54pm PT
So so science has identified four or five levels or bands of awareness, named them, and associated them with a particular frequency range. They are according to the way the scientists think of them within the general population:

Beta 14-30 Hz normal alert consciousness

Alpha 9-13 Hz relaxed, calm, not thinking

Theta 4-8 Hz deep relaxation, meditating, imagery

Delta 1-3 Hz deep, dreamless sleep


There is a lot more that has been discovered and can be said about these.

To start with all these levels can be explored through meditation, while maintaining an alert sense of awareness. Then they appear to be separated by distinct 'veils', a term that seems to describe how they are observed by various cultures around the world.

They have been sometimes described as four worlds, separated by mentally tangible veils.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 31, 2018 - 09:05pm PT
"Science" is a pretty wide generality. Who did this research and where can we access it?




TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2018 - 09:08pm PT

Higher levels of awareness requires a high level of self discipline.

Yes

So lacking a high level of self discipline and control, people tend to porpoise up and down through the bands of awareness.

This self-discipline is especially true and especially important when you start finding there are multiple sub-bands of awareness and each sub-band is highly specialized and applicable to accomplishing particular forms of activity. This is of course only useful to know if you are sufficiently aware of the bands and have the self-discipline to hold your attention in the appropriate band for the activity you are accomplishing.

I particularly recall Alex Honnald talking about how he momentarily dropped out of the zone and was terrified while standing on Thank God Ledge during his solo of Half Dome NW. Without having him hooked up to a bio-feedback machine, I'm going to take an educated guess that he often operates 'in the zone' at Alpha (subconscious) sub-band 3 and 4. That seems about where I was at while free soloing the Grand Teton North Face back in 1963. However considering my amazement at his accomplishments, Alex may be able to concentrate at a level well beyond that. I get the impression that Quinn Brett describes how she dropped out of the zone near the top of Boot Flake. Being in the right band of awareness zone can be an incredible performance enhancer, but the increasing risk factor demands ever increasing self-discipline! And it helps to concentrate within that zone if you know exactly what you are doing mentally.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2018 - 09:15pm PT
Spider there is a wide range of scientific research into this subject of the awareness bands and you can tap into it by a search on bio-feedback

However I don't find the scientific literature to be the most enlightened sources of applicable knowledge on the subject

You will however find a wide range of initially interesting information and research...I haven't kept up with it and there may well be by now researchers who have taken a deep dive, as for example really learning for themselves some of the techniques of Himalayan mystics
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 31, 2018 - 09:40pm PT
Thanks. I'd love to see the Scientific American article but then again, only for amusement.

I found my best line courtesy my favorite Montana Mystic. ;-)

I got my Know to Mystery scale working for me.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2018 - 09:45pm PT
So the Beta level is not so much a band as a place you really don't want to be, even though people in cities wind up spending much of their time there. It has been called various things to warn you about this: Ego, 'the I state of consciousness', the logical mind, 'the hired state of consciousness', 'the zone of the living dead', 'the prison of the flesh'

This is where you get people staring at their 'smart' phones while walking into lamp posts
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2018 - 09:47pm PT
Spider tell us about your Montana Mystic and your Know to Mystery scale
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 31, 2018 - 10:13pm PT
(At risk of being burned at the stake.)


Know to Mystery Scale as applies to climbing:

Positive Emotion > Look > Know About > Not-Know > Know

This upper band of the scale applies to a stoked climber walking up to a climb giving it a good look and flying into a highly creative state of success on the route. It ascends the scale from the middle.

Not-Know is the beautiful state of pure quiet where the universe bends to your will. Know is pure control of it.

Then, from the middle going down scale:

Negative Emotion > Effort > Think > Symbols > Eat > Sex > Mystery > Wait...

Here is where a climber fails and goes down the scale to a loss. This is very self evident if you examine it. Gets pissed off, trys and fails, thinks about it a long time, checks the guide book, decides to go eat instead, etc.


Climbing is a simple and clear example of how this works. It works well through out life as a philosophical approach.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2018 - 10:17pm PT
One of the things that drives people down into the Beta state of consciousness is concentrating attention on a very narrow focus. Our society teaches children from a very young age to concentrate on one thing and not allow their attention to wander ... focused attention or tunnel vision

Then growing up to concentrate on the traffic and the lane you are driving in, street lights and signs ... books, cell phones, TV ... tunnel vision!

Contrast this with life of native peoples (or rock climbers) where survival depends upon being aware of everything around, constantly extending the range of the senses.

A general challenge with humans is that even all five of our senses fully awakened, still only access very small bands of the electromagnetic spectrum.

One of the quickest ways to get up out of Beta is to expand your senses to encompass the entire environment around you...wide-angle vision and listening, awaken your sense of smell and touch ...

A funny thing about that is the more you awaken your senses, the more you are also able to be aware beyond the normal range of your senses...

If you go out in the woods and chose a comfortable spot to sit for 15 minutes without making a sound or a move ... you will become aware of the unique background sounds for that spot. Every spot has its own unique set of sound signatures, which if you pay attention to them can be used for multiple enhancements to your awareness ...you can recognize the location even at night and use that for navigation ... you can recognize when something changes and sends concentric rings of influence through that area from nearby, such as a dog or a person coming into the area ... even though you can't yet directly sense them, you can still be aware of their presence
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2018 - 10:20pm PT
What puts you at risk of being burned at the stake is people still stuck in The Matrix

This thread is a designated Matrix Free Zone


Your scale lines up nicely with the one I use ... you jumped ahead of me in the program ...

So your designation of 'Know' lines up with Delta aka super-conscious, consciousness of all things, Oneness, The Void ... an equal balance of the physical and life force and spirit

Not-Know lines up with Theta aka The World of the Spirit

Then Alpha is the subconscious and the life force that moves in all things, the physical universe, the primal self, body control, emotions and feelings, all memory, and Inner Vision
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Jan 31, 2018 - 11:45pm PT
consciousness or infinite awareness is basic to everything and the source from which is derived the material universe. My opinion on cosmology is that consciousness creates a field of energy and creates vibration patterns within that field by observing it. The creation of a vibrational thought form allows materializing that form as an aspect of the material universe.


consciousness in one person creates a field of energy (with a vibration frequency) that materializes the rest of the universe?


that feels incomplete as a description.

I think the point of the OP is that consciousness is a word used to describe levels of awareness as a phenomenon and those have a certain frequencies as matter/energy states.


But are those frequencies high enough to have causal consequences on anything but an atomic level? Much like pushing slushy ice, you can causally move some of it, but its not an infinite wave like water would wave. So I think the trick of language here has something to do with the use of the "infinite awareness" language.

Awareness is limited, not just by training, spatial relationships, self-subjectivizing, but by what we might call matter/energy density.

My observational awareness doesn't extend to the back side of the moon, but it can idealize the object of the backside of the moon and creatively attempt to fill in the 'minds eye' with what we have been pre-programmed with linguistically.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2018 - 01:23am PT
consciousness in one person creates a field of energy (with a vibration frequency) that materializes the rest of the universe?

that feels incomplete as a description.

I think the point of the OP is that consciousness is a word used to describe levels of awareness as a phenomenon and those have a certain frequencies as matter/energy states.

Several good points here. Central to this approach to understanding is that WE ARE ALL ONE.

Obviously this is a complex universe with a lot to understand, even within any one subset of one of the major sciences. So obviously this has to be an incomplete description requiring unending elaboration. But it is a good starting point. Physics and Cosmology and the other sciences search for an underlying unifying understanding. So this is it: WE ARE ALL ONE ...and The One is conscious, aware, sentient, and creative. Everything else manifests from that. Each of us can be considered as a viewpoint of The One, a viewpoint for having experiences in the created material universe, but still part and parcel of the universal creative consciousnesses that puts it all here.

Theoretically any of us should be able to demonstrate mind over matter. However this local space has been carefully engineered to make that challenging and convince us of its impossibility. Still every once in a while someone breaks out of their programming and does something that we all have been taught is physically impossible.

But are those frequencies high enough to have causal consequences on anything but an atomic level? Much like pushing slushy ice, you can causally move some of it, but its not an infinite wave like water would wave. So I think the trick of language here has something to do with the use of the "infinite awareness" language.

Here you are still looking at it as if the material universe has an existence independent of infinite awareness. It doesn't. It is very challenging to shift your viewpoint and escape from that view of The Matrix as having an existence all on it's own with us somehow being subservient visitors. Since we are raised with that perspective, it's not a viewpoint easy to change overnight, and most people can't even begin to conceive of it being different.

Awareness is limited, not just by training, spatial relationships, self-subjectivizing, but by what we might call matter/energy density.

My observational awareness doesn't extend to the back side of the moon, but it can idealize the object of the backside of the moon and creatively attempt to fill in the 'minds eye' with what we have been pre-programmed with linguistically.

I agree with all of that if I'm understanding you correctly ... special emphasis on the pre-programmed bit. The challenging part of increasing awareness is to look away from the oh so convincing illusion of the material world and look inward through the bands of awareness like layers of an onion, to where we can reconnect with the infinite awareness of which we are all a part. We are so thoroughly programmed to look at the world from the perspective of the material universe being real, that it can take some serious mental wrenching to see it for the illusion that it is. Try talking to kids enmeshed in a video game. They won't even hear your voice. This is like that only even much more so. However once you see it, you can't really go back. This shift of viewpoint is common among people who have a near death experience, or have a meditative cosmic consciousness experience. Meanwhile our society has us thoroughly programmed to see the holographic universe as the reality, the whole reality, and nothing besides the reality.

However what you describe as filling in The Mind's Eye is exactly how the entire place is constructed.

Who has been doing this pre-programming to us and why, is a whole another subject ... go see the movie The Matrix ...
karabin museum

Trad climber
phoenix, az
Feb 1, 2018 - 05:29am PT



I am not a expert with this stuff but I went through a spiritual transition over the last few years. The transition wasn’t necessarily something I decided to do, it was more forced upon me to push me Forward. I went from just enjoying everyday life to frantic spiritual studying that “had to be done” so I can understand “ purpose.” Like suddenly not sleeping for 4 years because the itch won’t stop!

The outcome to my madness ended when true Faith came to me. A true personal relationship with the creator. It is interesting that all of the “spiritual rules of reverence” are no longer necessary in my life and I no longer need to have a bookcase jammed with spiritual books to show that I “belong.”

Spiritual conversation now is very refreshing and fun, because I no longer “feel like I have to” continually absorb material and understand all of the spiritual systems.

I thought throughout my life I had tons of Faith all along. God is with me Yeah! When this transition started I came to the conclusion that my Faith was actually me being a good person and doing good things in life. Faith and Hope had no difference. This new Faith I have with God feels completely different than the Faith I thought I had all of my life.

God is now everything in my life!

…………………………………………………………………………………..

While I was in this spiritual window many drawings came out of me. These drawings still are coming out of me like somebody is nudging me to draw them. In the illustration below the egg represents the mind and its continual reasoning of “purpose.” The person represents the soul and its escape from the control of the mind/flesh.



Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 1, 2018 - 10:23am PT
To me, the important part of discussions of this nature is the willingness of the participants to engage in a two way discussion. Extensive knowledge or experience in a given field does not guarantee the possessor is equal to the task of communicating without falling prey to the petty encumbrances that diminish the mutual benefits. Whew.

It usually comes down to what you know and how you know it. It is always going to be different than who you are engaged with, that's a given. The hard part is to see where the similarities are and how that may lead to a discovery of a thread of truth.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Feb 1, 2018 - 10:43am PT
Infinite awareness seems to intersect with John Long's open awareness experience that he has discussed at length in the WisM thread. He has postulated that his experience is not describable in physical terms:

"That is, awareness and consciousness are fundamentally unlike other "things" that physics and biology are designed to explain."
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 1, 2018 - 11:20am PT
As one explores consciousness and experiences different levels and modes of awareness there usually is that moment of realization that seems profound. It is a feeling, a moment of awareness that can be had by any number of methods, understandings or paths. Along with that feeling, depending on how deeply one is effected, often there is a desire to share that feeling by communicating it to others. At this point things get screwy. Personality enters the picture. Everyone wants to win the ever increasingly popular game of "I look good on the internet" and all bets are off. Value judgements become the name of the game as that is how it is played in the Matrix.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 1, 2018 - 11:28am PT
No reason the woo crew shouldn't have a dedicated panpsychism thread - have at it.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Feb 1, 2018 - 11:38am PT
However no significant level of consensus of basic understanding seems to have been reached on those threads and many of the sub-discussions seem to be running in circles for some 20,000 postings. Reality designed by a committee! My personal opinion as to why is that the subject is being approached backwards...hence this thread to look at it from the other direction...not about the five senses or the brain or the mind, but about consciousness and levels of awareness and possible implications to be learned ...

I don't think it was the purpose of the threads you referenced -- stated or implied-- to arrive at some sort of utilitarian "consensus" as regards consciousness,or any other subject. Posters do not convene at such threads in order to solve the unsolvable riddles of the mind-- for the rest of us to then assess and hold up to the grail of "basic understanding."

Therefore, the founding premise of your own thread purpose appears to be without much of a logical foundation; appearing to be an artificial premise, wholly unnecessary.
But Go for it.
Whatever rings your bell.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Feb 1, 2018 - 12:12pm PT
To be clear; my bias is towards avoiding the false dichotomy of mind/matter.

The mind is what the brain does. So the 'materialism' vs. 'awareness' as substantively different things doesn't need a specific type of label as long as we understand collectively in dialogue that mind and matter are not materially different things. or in the language of collective-conscious approach, they are not immaterially different objects within thought.

The harder part is to talk about causality in either language game and whether one wants to be amenable to proof via some type of inter-subjectivity or Nagelian objectivity.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Feb 1, 2018 - 12:30pm PT
I did a search for "Nagelian Objectivity."

The most promising result:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/scientific-objectivity/




To simplify,

As young (High School) investigators we were told by my collaborator's father that we should not refer to ourselves in writing up our results. You would write, "It was found that...," rather than, "We found that..."

This was, and may still be, the convention.

Fortunately, not all scientists are so timid, though it was the right approach for us.

A climbing partner of mine in Chicago, a particle physicist at the time, told me that when Steven Weinberg gave talks about his area of research, he would simply say, "I found that..," or "I proved that..."

I would trust Weinberg over Nagel. I find Nagel to be a nit-picker and superficial, and Weinberg to be far-sighted and real.

Scientific objectivity is a convention. Don't put too much weight on it.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 1, 2018 - 06:12pm PT
I'm curious about the "levels of awareness". Is there a list?

"Someone is interfering with you in particular, so that makes it your show. I know who and you also know who."

WBraun

climber
Feb 1, 2018 - 08:12pm PT
The gross materialist can't figure this sh!t out because they're way too busy playing scientist.

The knowledge of consciousness IS far above the gross materialist's consciousness.

The gross materialists all fail from the very start with their fixed up dead materialistic consciousness ......
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2018 - 08:36pm PT
i like the Seeking Understanding drawings ... interesting perspectives ...

it seems to be not uncommon for someone like you who is ready for it, to be pushed into seeing what is often called an enlightened view of reality

that's true of me also in perhaps a rather different way ... i was a die hard materialist scientist pushing way to hard as a rock climber and had so many near death instances that it eventually got through my hard head to see there was definitely something keeping me alive besides athletic skill and dumb luck

that set me off on a path of learning that was entirely unlikely considering my early upbringing and inclinations
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2018 - 08:49pm PT
Jogill - Infinite awareness seems to intersect with John Long's open awareness experience that he has discussed at length in the WisM thread. He has postulated that his experience is not describable in physical terms:

"That is, awareness and consciousness are fundamentally unlike other "things" that physics and biology are designed to explain."

I agree with most of what John Long has to say ... He has taken on the unenviable task of trying to rationally and logically enlighten very intelligent scientists who are firmly fixed in views of the materialistic matrix. John has a tremendous command of the language and has been doing a superb job of making up for the shortcomings of the language to describe the nature of some of this. I am trying here to take on the much easier task of having a discussion among people who already have some level of experience and understanding in this domain ... not needing to be convinced, but wishing to learn more and expand understanding

I started this thread not out of any desire to steal the fire from John's thread, but because I'd like to transcend the endless scientific discussions regarding body/brain/mind and step into discussions regarding the nature of the levels of infinite awareness. I suspected not being the only person in this forum interested in such, and so far already that is proving to be the case on this thread.

I am inviting non-participation by those who are convinced that everything is explainable as aspects of the material universe. Those dimensions to the discussions are very interesting, but not appropriate to this thread.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2018 - 09:25pm PT
As one explores consciousness and experiences different levels and modes of awareness there usually is that moment of realization that seems profound. It is a feeling, a moment of awareness that can be had by any number of methods, understandings or paths. Along with that feeling, depending on how deeply one is effected, often there is a desire to share that feeling by communicating it to others. At this point things get screwy. Personality enters the picture. Everyone wants to win the ever increasingly popular game of "I look good on the internet" and all bets are off. Value judgements become the name of the game as that is how it is played in the Matrix.

Surely it is fine wanting to share moments of profound realization. Realize that the materialistic matrix includes a multitude of elements to keep us entrained within it and reinforce the ego ... not attempting here to list them all, but including such things as encapsulation, insulation, isolation, living other than in the now, unawareness, ignorance envy, want, lack of vision

All these sorts of things tend to dissipate the more a person envisions we are all part of the force that moves in all things, we are all brothers and sisters, we are all one ... each of us a viewpoint of the one, here to have experiences

If you are worried about what other people think of you, then you are giving away your power to them, giving them power over you and your life and decision making ... power you should be reserving for yourself.

Realize you don't need to prove anything to anyone ... you can share with others as you make agreements to do so ... your only real duty is to live according to your own best judgement
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2018 - 09:36pm PT
I don't think it was the purpose of the threads you referenced -- stated or implied-- to arrive at some sort of utilitarian "consensus" as regards consciousness,or any other subject. Posters do not convene at such threads in order to solve the unsolvable riddles of the mind-- for the rest of us to then assess and hold up to the grail of "basic understanding."

There does seem to me to be a constant dialog regarding how consciousness and awareness and intelligence arise within the universe. I appreciate that ongoing discussion and find it fascinating, not necessarily for the same reasons as others

This thread is designed to set aside that whole discussion and go with the assumption that conscious awareness is the basic source of the material universe. Whether or not you agree with that perspective, the other threads clearly consider consciousness to arise from the material universe, and this thread takes the opposite tack of considering the material universe arises as a product of infinite awareness.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2018 - 09:55pm PT
The mind is what the brain does. So the 'materialism' vs. 'awareness' as substantively different things doesn't need a specific type of label as long as we understand collectively in dialogue that mind and matter are not materially different things. or in the language of collective-conscious approach, they are not immaterially different objects within thought.

Yes, I agree with you, The brain is clearly an important tool of the mind. And mind and matter are not materially different things. That is an interesting and worthwhile component of the discussions to have on the other thread.

This thread is not about body/brain/mind systems. It is about levels of awareness independent of those.

If you have not accepted the concept of consciousness external from a material body and brain, then this thread should just be tagged as irrelevant woo woo, and so you can in all good conscience ignore it and rejoin the other discussion threads
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2018 - 10:06pm PT
I'm curious about the "levels of awareness". Is there a list?

Yes

It's a little bit like measuring a distance across a space ... different cultures have used different measuring sticks to measure the same or similar space ... their understandings do tend to line up with each other because they are looking at similar aspects of reality ...

If someone isn't seeing what we are looking at, then talking about layers or bands or metrics is irrelevant and confusing ...

"Someone is interfering with you in particular, so that makes it your show. I know who and you also know who."

Do you? Then you are way ahead of the crowd. But you are not alone.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2018 - 10:24pm PT
It sounds to me like you are talking
about Noetic Science, Tom.

There's something we are familiar with at NASA JSC Building 4 in the Astronaut Office called, 'The Blue Marble Effect'. And Edgar Mitchell definitely got it.

This transcendental effect happens when you look out of the spacecraft window and see the entire Earth of a size you can block by holding up your thumb. However there's the entirety of the human race and all our history as just a pale blue dot.

And your sense of self and self-awareness gets slammed by your powerful spiritual connections to your loved ones and to everyone else on that little blue marble.

And then you look around for any alternatives or backup possibilities and it's hard to retreat to a myopic viewpoint about life after that.

There are other aspects as well such as the nature of your escorts.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2018 - 10:29pm PT
The gross materialist can't figure this sh!t out because they're way too busy playing scientist.

The knowledge of consciousness IS far above the gross materialist's consciousness.

The gross materialists all fail from the very start with their fixed up dead materialistic consciousness ......

Take it easy, Werner, on this thread you are among friends trying to learn more about what you already understand ... LOL
Nick Danger

Ice climber
Arvada, CO
Feb 2, 2018 - 06:12am PT
Tom,
I very much appreciate what you are doing with this thread. It takes me back to a time when I focused personal energy on just this sort of quest. Then I got lazy or otherwise distracted by earthly things, family, ect. For my personal journey those distractions actually had important lessons to convey to me. I find the timing of your thread entirely wonderful, and many of your metaphors extremely useful. Not sure I have a great deal to add to this discussion, but am an eager reader of this thread. I very much appreciate what you are doing and talking about here.
Thank you
Cheers
Nick (Bob)
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2018 - 10:13am PT
The most powerful demon is the uncontrolled logical mind.

You must choose one of three methods to deal with it:

1. fight it (sometimes)
2. confront it (sometimes)
3. accept it passively (80% of the time)

So it seems that many people would like to escape from the constant chatter going on in their uncontrolled minds and they turn to meditation as a possible solution.

Other common 'solutions' to distract the mental demon include booz, drugs, TV, sports entertainment, arts and crafts, pets, nature walks, house cleaning, reading, social contributions, church, religious or occult practices, chanting, wood cutting, personal grooming, board games, etc

Rock climbing is the popular one (and a good one) in this crowd. Rock climbing has been my first personal research laboratory for this.

Each of these has their advantages and disadvantages ... some are constructive and helpful to self and others or just harmlessly enjoyable ... some can be destructive to self and others ... and some work better than others so far as encouraging learning to control the mind.



Meditation is a relatively mild and relatively universal approach, but most people attempt it without the sort of training or discipline which is known among some of the ancient eastern practices. And novices quickly come face to face to a whole series of challenging distractions.

So commonly people use recordings of music or spoken guidance from knowledgeable practitioners as a way to focus attention away from the mental chatter. I used to play classical music in my head while rock climbing, as I was a professional violinist ... but it's better to be able to focus your full energy and attention on the climb without distractions.

So how to quiet the logical mind and bring up the power of the spiritual mind? The deeper you can get into Inner Vision, the more effective you can be. Empowered Belief (that it will happen) is the most powerful technique for accomplishing anything.

So to start out, there are four basic elements for effective meditation, each worthy of some discussion:

1. Relaxed Mind and Body
2. Comfortable position
3. Passive attitude ... you meet disturbances passively
4. A focal point of attention for the mind

Pure Mind is the Spiritual Mind ... the more quiet, the more powerful
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2018 - 10:41am PT
Moose, we are in the same boat.

Realizing when you don't know and wanting to know is basic to all advancement in knowledge. At the point you decide that you know all about it ... well that's the point at which the learning stops.

I've just devoted a little bit more research to the subject of this thread and am interested in sharing and learning more
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 2, 2018 - 10:59am PT
How many wizards does it take to complete an Oz? Who needs another wizard? Oz is inside of you. You don't need a wizard to find it. If you do, you won't. Call it what you want, but once you call it something it becomes that something in your mind and you are trying to limit the limitless.

Even if someone were to ask me, " what's it all about, Alfie?" I would hesitate to answer,not because I care what they think about me but I would rather they had the experience of discovery and then,maybe, we could share something.

Until that time, I choose to let the mystery unfold for the individual as it may. Let the light shine as it is for each person that would seek that light. There are no shortcuts or manuals of instruction.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2018 - 11:19am PT
Thank you for the words of encouragement and please add your personal experiences.


I learned early in my passion for climbing about reaching a point of being thrashed and trembling with weakness. I learned that if your thoughts were oh how tired and weak I am ... that was it for that particular attempt.

Then I learned that if I conjured up thoughts about how I am strong and energized and let's do this ... and gosh, it goes! ...

Then Frank Sacherer and I met and started talking about such things and I refined this technique. This is the time period when we were pushing beyond 5.9 into the realm of 5.10. So I would climb to a point of encountering high resistance, mentally rehearse the move, bond mentally to the rock, breath deeply and mentally energize the body, focus on the move, and launch into the motion with no holding back. Frank was conflicted about believing in such stuff, but it worked well enough that I was able to push through at several critical points when he was stymied. It's clear he later mastered the technique. He would do it by working himself up into an emotional rage at himself ... not the best approach and a waste of a lot of energy. In that time period 5.10 was the ceiling on our ability. It's clear that younger generations of climbers seem to take this energized focus as normal technique and 5.10 hardly represents any barrier to ability.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2018 - 11:40am PT
Wayno, it seems we are living in Oz aka The Matrix, and there is much more funding and technology devoted to this than the public has any glimmer about.

And actually there are government funded manuals on how to do some of this stuff and there has been a tremendous amount of well funded dark programs research in this general area, particularly on how to constrain and limit human abilities ... aka 'non-lethal weapons research'. Our society is thoroughly permeated with technology to keep us constrained. You could spend a lifetime just trying to catch up with a few of these guys .. such as Hal Putoff and Ingo Swann

I would rather keep it light and not recommend these rather dark approaches, but you can see one such manual at:

http://www.remoteviewed.com/files/CRV%20manual%20full.pdf
Coordinate Remote Viewing Training Manual - Stanford Research Institute
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 2, 2018 - 11:51am PT
Infinite awareness seems to intersect with John Long's open awareness experience that he has discussed at length in the WisM thread. He has postulated that his experience is not describable in physical terms:

"That is, awareness and consciousness are fundamentally unlike other "things" that physics and biology are designed to explain."
-


Several things worth mentioning re the above.

It's not so much that I'm saying you CAN'T describe subjectivity itself in objective terms, it's just that nobody has any idea how to do it or what it would possibly entail. What, exactly, are we to measure within the experiential realm itself?

What usually happens here is that (as Chalmers has pointed out), people simply shift the focus away from subjectivity itself, go to the brain, pull a measurement and say, THAT'S subjectivity, you only think it is something else, when in fact subjectivity is itself no more than a physical process.

Of course this is logically incoherent, but what's a physicalist to do?

The problem boils down to a couple things (as mentioned many time) Nagel said back in the 70s.

"The mind-body problem is about what experience IS, not how it is caused. The difficulty is that conscious experience has an essentially subjective character—what it is like for its subject, from the inside—that purely physical processes do not share."

That is, no matter how comprehensive your physical description IS, it is NOT describing subjectivity itself, rather it is a causal description of the brain that is taken to "cause" or birth subjectivity. Physical concepts describe the world as it is in itself, and not for any conscious subject, ergo a physical description leaves out the very phenomenon that we are inquiring about.

Physical concepts describe the world as it is in itself, and not for any conscious subject. This in not debatable. Physics has never been called on to discuss or describe any phenomenon that did not involve physical stuff or phenomenon as it is in itself - that is, in terms of physical attributes. NONE of the physical attributes in all of physics has a subjective character. Whether physics is helpful in investigating mind and consciousness itself is a big question, though it might be very key in describing brain function. But the fact it it has no track record in dealing with experience itself.

What happens here is that people make all sorts of wonky attempts to describe subjectivity AS objective data, a calculation, brain output, an algorithm, not realizing they have defaulted back to a causal investigation and are not even talking about subjectivity.

In the physical sciences, there is nothing more than physical processes, so there is never a need to try and wrangle more. But all attempts to frame consciousness itself as a physical thing or phenomenon go no distance in explaining what mind IS. Again, what something is, so far as science is concerned, has ALWAYS been answered with physical/causal descriptors. So it is no wonder that some are trying to cram mind into that box. Trying to do so is, in my mind, the very quintessence of woo, masquerading as science.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2018 - 01:28pm PT
Yes, John, it is very challenging to communicate to someone on a subject where there is little or no shared experience base.

During my early studies in artificial intelligence, I was trying to understand how it is that people can convey so much information in face to face conversation, when the information I/O rate is so pedestrian compared to computer networks.

When I finally figured it out, I was embarrassed that it took me so long to understand.

So I realized that it is not so much about the streaming I/O rate as it is about shared experiential mental models which can be manipulated in conversation using very few words.

For example, if you want to talk about sailing and you ask your new dinner companion about their level of interest in the subject ... so they reply that they get sea sick on the dock and get dizzy watching waves at the beach ... well that sets a level of challenge for any ensuing conversation on the subject.

However if they reply that they regularly race the TransPac and came in 7th last year! ... well you are off to a running start on an interesting conversation!

So that realization became the focus of my development of the AI 'Inference Engine' for knowledge-based software systems ... how do you capture and logically codify the experiential model for the operating domain of your software system?? That proved a very successful approach and I did a lot of them.

So how do you discuss the domains of spiritual awareness with people who share no common experiential mental models in those domains and insist upon regarding such as strange anomalies arising entirely within and from a solid physical universe??? LOL!
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 2, 2018 - 02:03pm PT
So how do you discuss the domains of spiritual awareness with people who share no common experiential mental models in those domains and insist upon regarding such as strange anomalies arising entirely within and from a solid physical universe??? LOL!

You don't. They will insist that it is not needed.

such as Hal Putoff and Ingo Swann

I am familiar with this subject. I find Ingo a fascinating individual. He and Putoff really tried to do science as relates to woo. Few are that bold or imaginative.

I know it might sound strange to some but I am not a science vs. woo guy, more of a science and woo guy. How can that be? It is a matter of practicality and reconciliation.

One strange thing that I learned from experience is that old concept of enlightenment and bliss from Eastern Philosophy and Religion is quite outdated and plain wrong in a modern context. Don't ask me to explain it but Enlightenment does not bring bliss but rather remorse and if you need it it makes a good metric.

What are good metrics for truth as experienced and understood?
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 2, 2018 - 03:00pm PT
Quote Here


"The mind-body problem is about what experience IS, not how it is caused. The difficulty is that conscious experience has an essentially subjective character—what it is like for its subject, from the inside—that purely physical processes do not share."


So why are we talkin
?

I'm [going to have] to assume we all know three or four levels of consciousness

Say - awake, asleep, asleep-rem, anesthetized°

What are the others under consideration?

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 2, 2018 - 03:05pm PT
Tom and Wayno, what I believe - but do not know - you are saying relates more to consciousness and the content of consciousness (thoughts, feelings, sensations, memories, etc.) that simple awareness, which in my view is the connector between the subjective and objective, and which dissolves duality once one realizes what is at play.

So long as you are dealing with inputs and information and so forth, you still have one foot - and a big foot - sunk in causitive/mechanistic sand. And you can always argue over what is there in terms of content. That's why, in my view, Chalmers made a mistake in trying to anchor his Hard Problem on the appearance of qualia (content), and the what-it-is-like to experience content.

Take Uncle Dennett, for example. He proclaims that consciousness is an illusion, not realizing the logical incoherence of this stand. Or at least part of it. ALL of his arguments are based on the fact that the mind can misrepresent the content of consciousness so convincingly that we believe it is "real." But he cannot question the fact that there is SOMETHING there, and that we are aware of it. If you move to more fundamental levels, to awareness itself, Dennett sounds absurd. What's more, he is stating with certainly that consciousness is illusory, while using consciousness to draw his conclusions.

Long story short, in my mind the real interesting work involves looking at base awareness, which isn't digital or discrete or the output of any thing or mechanism. A great starting point is plotting the difference between machine registration, which occurs in a computer, and what happens in an aware human being.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Feb 2, 2018 - 03:08pm PT
Tom,

You wrote in a couple spots in response...

"how do you discuss the domains of spiritual awareness with people who share no common experiential mental models in those domains and insist upon regarding such as strange anomalies arising entirely within and from a solid physical universe??? LOL! "


"If you have not accepted the concept of consciousness external from a material body and brain, then this thread should just be tagged as irrelevant woo woo, and so you can in all good conscience ignore it and rejoin the other discussion threads"

"This thread is not about body/brain/mind systems. It is about levels of awareness independent of those."


Each of these statements assume and distance us from bothering with further engagement.

From most of the posts I'm not getting a sense that a statement about the experience of "levels" of awareness has been pushed forward. Instead it seems like a statement 'about' statements of awareness are being pushed.

Let me just ask:

What is does a level of awareness X have in common with level of awareness Y?

What is different between them?

How is 'greater' awareness more valuable? (not sure if you used that word 'greater' but I think its been used or a similar term used to show that a simplistic materialistic view doesn't account for reflection on the experience/phenomenon of awareness)

Is awareness = reflection or reflexive thinking? Or are you trying to describe non-reflexive awareness?


The notion was put out above that everything is one or connected, in a simple and limited linguistic description.


The replies I'm trying to write are essentially that I don't get the sense that consciousness and levels of awareness has been explained very well and that in contrast a gross materialist's or even a polite materialist's view from what may be discussed here are only different in terms of the particular language 'game' being 'played'. The 'experience' being the same as experienced, but as we relate it back here is prone to errors of language and memory (and so humanly, about power).


Will save comments for later on subjectivity and objectively describing it. Are they truly incommensurable notions?



MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Feb 2, 2018 - 03:11pm PT
Long story short, in my mind the real interesting work involves looking at base awareness, which isn't digital or discrete or the output of any thing or mechanism. A great starting point is plotting the difference between machine registration, which occurs in a computer, and what happens in an aware human being.


Why is your standard a computer?
mynameismud

climber
backseat
Feb 2, 2018 - 03:32pm PT
computers were originally individuals
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 2, 2018 - 03:41pm PT
Why is your standard a computer?

I was thinking that also. I know more than one person on the Mind thread has used computer analogies but I don't personally think along those lines. So when people use computer terminology to describe mind and brain stuff I feel like Lewis Black and I start waving my hands and around spittle forms in the corner of my mouth. That's when I throw my hands up and go home. ;o

Munge, I enjoy you perspective. Really.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2018 - 04:30pm PT
Very interesting and thoughtful responses and exactly the sort of discussions I was hoping this thread would inspire.

There are now several different open questions on the table where I would like to respond ... get back to me again if I miss addressing something important ...

I have been following the work of Ingo Swann and Hal Putoff since the early 1970s ... and yes they sure put some work into it. Unfortunately much of their work and vast amounts of related work are not available to the public. I don't want to just dump a bunch of references in your lap, so I'll try to put them out for discussion a bit at a time.

Princeton University in New Jersey has contributed a tremendous amount of work with empirical scientific investigation into this subject, at the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Laboratory.

One of their publications is a 146 page research paper titled 'On the Quantum Mechanics of Consciousness, with Application to Anomalous Phenomena' by Robert G. Jahn and Brenda J. Dunne in December 1983 PEAR 83005.1 revised June 1984

The bulk of this paper documents experiments researching how thought wave forms from consciousness directly effect the material reality.

Theoretical explication of psychic phenomena is not likely to be achieved in terms of known physical processes. Rather, it will first be necessary to formulate the basic role of consciousness in the definition of an physical reality before such anomalous experiences can adequately be represented. This paper takes the position that reality is constituted only in the interaction of consciousness with its environment, and therefore that any scheme of conceptual organization developed to represent that reality must reflect the processes of consciousness as well as those of its environment. In this spirit, the concepts and formalisms of elementary quantum mechanics, originally developed to explain anomalous physical phenomena may, via metaphor, be appropriated to represent the characteristics of consciousness interacting with its environment. More specifically, if a consciousness is represented by a quantum mechanical wave function, and its environment, including its own physical corpus, is represented by an appropriate potential profile, Schrodinger wave mechanics yields eigenfunctions and eigenvalues that can be associated with the cognitive and emotional experiences of that consciousness in that environment. ...


Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 2, 2018 - 04:54pm PT
Tom and Wayno, what I believe - but do not know - you are saying relates more to consciousness and the content of consciousness (thoughts, feelings, sensations, memories, etc.) that simple awareness, which in my view is the connector between the subjective and objective, and which dissolves duality once one realizes what is at play.

Wrong riff. I think - but do not know - is that you meant to use the cowboy riff. ;)
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2018 - 04:54pm PT
I'm [going to have] to assume we all know three or four levels of consciousness

Say - awake, asleep, asleep-rem, anesthetized°

What are the others under consideration?

Yes, it's pretty basic for everyone to have some simple level of understanding of levels of awareness ... if only from getting bonked in the head with a baseball in the schoolyard! So, for starters just look at the range of emotional conditions available during states of awakeness: ranging up from apathy, grief, fear, anger, antagonism, boredom, enthusiasm and up to serenity ... with many nuances in between.... not to mention getting drunk or high (not recommended)

And bio-feedback equipment reveals that a practiced meditator can remain fully alert while attaining the states normally experienced as sleep, deep rem sleep and fully anesthetized. Regression techniques reveal that a fully anesthetized patient is still mentally recording their surroundings with great clarity.

But I haven't answered your question yet.

People usually have enough of a challenge attaining a meditative state of complete serenity, so that this is often looked at as the end goal of meditation, medication, and/or religious/philosophical perfection.

Well it isn't, not even close. Attaining a calm meditative state is not the last step, it is the first step into the realms of spiritual awareness.

We already briefly mentioned above the detection of brain wave frequencies using EEG or bio-feedback equipment. Back in the 1980s I worked with a company developing brain scan equipment showing a 3D real-time model of color coded brain activity.

Here's some interesting commentary from the medical community, although I don't necessarily agree with all their analysis:

5 Types Of Brain Waves Frequencies: Gamma, Beta, Alpha, Theta, Delta

It is important to know that all humans display five different types of electrical patterns or “brain waves” across the cortex. The brain waves can be observed with an EEG (or an “electroencephalograph”) – a tool that allows researchers to note brain wave patterns. Each brain wave has a purpose and helps serve us in optimal mental functioning.

Our brain’s ability to become flexible and/or transition through various brain wave frequencies plays a large role in how successful we are at managing stress, focusing on tasks, and getting a good night’s sleep.

Each serves a purpose to help us cope with various situations – whether it is to help us process and learn new information or help us calm down after a long stressful day. The five brain waves in order of highest frequency to lowest are as follows: gamma, beta, alpha, theta, and delta.
5 Brain Waves: Frequencies To Understand

Before I get into specifics, it is important to realize that when I refer to a certain brain wave, I am implying that a particular brain wave is “dominant.” Throughout the day in your waking state, your EEG will display all 5 types of brain waves at the same time. However, one particular brain wave will be dominant depending on the state of consciousness that you are in.

For example, if you are awake, but have really bad ADHD, you may have more slow wave (alpha and/or theta) activity than beta waves. During sleep usually there are combinations of the slower frequencies, but even gamma has been found to be involved in rapid-eye movement (REM). Below is a brief description of each brainwave state, but a more in-depth understanding can be derived from the book “Getting Started with Neurofeedback.”

Gamma Waves

These are involved in higher processing tasks as well as cognitive functioning. Gamma waves are important for learning, memory and information processing. It is thought that the 40 Hz gamma wave is important for the binding of our senses in regards to perception and are involved in learning new material. It has been found that individuals who are mentally challenged and have learning disabilities tend to have lower gamma activity than average.

Frequency range: 40 Hz to 100 Hz (Highest)
Too much: Anxiety, high arousal, stress
Too little: ADHD, depression, learning disabilities
Optimal: Binding senses, cognition, information processing, learning, perception, REM sleep
Increase gamma waves: Meditation

Beta Waves

These are known as high frequency low amplitude brain waves that are commonly observed while we are awake. They are involved in conscious thought, logical thinking, and tend to have a stimulating affect. Having the right amount of beta waves allows us to focus and complete school or work-based tasks easily. Having too much beta may lead to us experiencing excessive stress and/or anxiety. The higher beta frequencies are associated with high levels of arousal. When you drink caffeine or have another stimulant, your beta activity will naturally increase. Think of these as being very fast brain waves that most people exhibit throughout the day in order to complete conscious tasks such as: critical thinking, writing, reading, and socialization.

Frequency range: 12 Hz to 40 Hz (High)
Too much: Adrenaline, anxiety, high arousal, inability to relax, stress
Too little: ADHD, daydreaming, depression, poor cognition
Optimal: Conscious focus, memory, problem solving
Increase beta waves: Coffee, energy drinks, various stimulants

Alpha Waves

This frequency range bridges the gap between our conscious thinking and subconscious mind. In other words, alpha is the frequency range between beta and theta. It helps us calm down when necessary and promotes feelings of deep relaxation. If we become stressed, a phenomenon called “alpha blocking” may occur which involves excessive beta activity and very little alpha. Essentially the beta waves “block” out the production of alpha because we become too aroused.

Frequency range: 8 Hz to 12 Hz (Moderate)
Too much: Daydreaming, inability to focus, too relaxed
Too little: Anxiety, high stress, insomnia, OCD
Optimal: Relaxation
Increase alpha waves: Alcohol, marijuana, relaxants, some antidepressants

Theta Waves

This particular frequency range is involved in daydreaming and sleep. Theta waves are connected to us experiencing and feeling deep and raw emotions. Too much theta activity may make people prone to bouts of depression and may make them “highly suggestible” based on the fact that they are in a deeply relaxed, semi-hypnotic state. Theta has its benefits of helping improve our intuition, creativity, and makes us feel more natural. It is also involved in restorative sleep. As long as theta isn’t produced in excess during our waking hours, it is a very helpful brain wave range.

Frequency range: 4 Hz to 8 Hz (Slow)
Too much: ADHD, depression, hyperactivity, impulsivity, inattentiveness
Too little: Anxiety, poor emotional awareness, stress
Optimal: Creativity, emotional connection, intuition, relaxation
Increase theta waves: Depressants

Delta Waves

These are the slowest recorded brain waves in human beings. They are found most often in infants as well as young children. As we age, we tend to produce less delta even during deep sleep. They are associated with the deepest levels of relaxation and restorative, healing sleep. They have also been found to be involved in unconscious bodily functions such as regulating heart beat and digestion. Adequate production of delta waves helps us feel completely rejuvenated after we wake up from a good night’s sleep. If there is abnormal delta activity, an individual may experience learning disabilities or have difficulties maintaining conscious awareness (such as in cases of brain injuries).

Frequency range: 0 Hz to 4 Hz (Slowest)
Too much: Brain injuries, learning problems, inability to think, severe ADHD
Too little: Inability to rejuvenate body, inability to revitalize the brain, poor sleep
Optimal: Immune system, natural healing, restorative / deep sleep
Increase delta waves: Depressants, sleep

http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2014/04/15/5-types-of-brain-waves-frequencies-gamma-beta-alpha-theta-delta/
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 2, 2018 - 05:03pm PT
I have been following the work of Ingo Swann and Hal Putoff since the early 1970s

Way cool, Tom. I would love to have a discussion with you someday face to face. I talk a lot with my hands and facial expressions and I type really slow. I'm not sure how deep I would go here on this wonderful climber's forum. Not my thing.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2018 - 05:55pm PT
So, if you have not learned to easily attain a meditative state of serene awareness, then it's just introducing confusion to talk about states of awareness beyond that, and it's a distraction and waste of time thinking about it.

If you do commonly drop into such a state, perhaps several times a day, or even most of the time, then chances are you have been developing some level of perception and understanding of these bands of awareness beyond the basic state of calm awareness.

Some of the ancient peoples observe there to be four worlds of the spirit, separated by veils. The scientists mentioned above would say these correspond with two levels of the subconscious Alpha waves, plus Theta, and Delta...fair enough. (Scientists seem to be fussing around with what they think about Gamma).

These four worlds are leading along by increments towards what has variously been termed The Great Mystery, The Oneness, The Void, Infinite Awareness ...

So from this perspective we have the four worlds:

1. the subconscious
2. the life force that moves in all things
3. the world of the spirit
4. the void
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2018 - 06:04pm PT
Werner:

Because every single living entity is nothing but pure consciousness with individuality.

In the material world, the living entity is covered by the material elements and thus thinks it is born and dies.

Only the material coverings go thru these changes.

The living entity itself always remains and transmigrates to different material bodies according to their developed consciousness in their present lives.

The spiritual soul is pure consciousness and is the living entity itself.

Yes
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2018 - 06:23pm PT
So long as you are dealing with inputs and information and so forth, you still have one foot - and a big foot - sunk in causative/mechanistic sand.

yes

John, you have very appropriately dealt at length with the difference between the thing itself and the means by which it is described.

Since the world of the spirit is in this world but not of it, how else to describe it other than using the terms of this world?

Whether using text or math or images or computer models, it's all attempts to convey understanding of concepts which are not of this world. People with no shared understanding of the world of the spirit will never grasp what we are trying to convey until waking up to see for themselves.

Once people experience it personally, then any descriptions are somewhat superfluous and more or less like a secret code among those with shared understanding.

Fortunately many people are waking up from the long nightmare of The Matrix.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 2, 2018 - 06:38pm PT
Just a quick note here - gotta go to Arizona.

For me, levels of awareness are actually levels of consciousness. Awareness is just one phenomenon and and what we experience, by and large, is what consciousness (brain generated) feeds awareness.

I don't see awareness of mind or any of it as "spirit" or separate from anything else. There is no stand-alone phenomenon in reality. Everything is interconnected. In my opinion.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 2, 2018 - 06:42pm PT
O.K., I'm a Meditator. LOL

I'll try to see if I can get what you are saying without being a dick.



Some of the ancient peoples observe there to be

I feel that as good a place to start as any but in at least two of those four worlds, I would bet that they are not the same as today or as these modern times in general. I think this is an important distinction in these matters that is often overlooked, not necessarily by you, Tom.

four worlds of the spirit, separated by veils

Are you equating this with "levels of awareness" alpha, delta, etc,?

So from this perspective we have the four worlds:

At this point , I'm a bit confused. One of the four worlds of spirit is the world of spirits?

Anyway, interesting so far.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 2, 2018 - 07:15pm PT
Five card no-peekee

5 Types Of Brain Waves Frequencies: Gamma, Beta, Alpha, Theta, Delta

Very weak Mr. Cochrane. There is certainly more detailed stuff to look at, but (apologies to Bob Dylan) "it ain't goin' nowhere yet.




Spherical Harmonics Reveal Standing EEG Waves and Long-Range Neural Synchronization during Non-REM Sleep

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4916209/

I haven't looked at this in many years, but I would bet there has been no progress, just like machine language "understanding".

I don't "mind" being corrected if indeed there has been any progress.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2018 - 07:18pm PT
For me, levels of awareness are actually levels of consciousness. Awareness is just one phenomenon and and what we experience, by and large, is what consciousness (brain generated) feeds awareness.

I don't see awareness of mind or any of it as "spirit" or separate from anything else. There is no stand-alone phenomenon in reality. Everything is interconnected. In my opinion.

Yes, reality is all interconnected as quantum thought wave forms.

No, the brain does not create consciousness....LOL! That's about like a scientist declaring that the automobile creates the driver!

Consciousness creates the mind/brain/body/world as imagery in the mind, and reality only exists as such in the mind.

The brain is a wave-form receiver/decoder. The brain does Fourier transforms of quantum wave-forms (in very narrow limited bandwidths) to create imagery in the mind.

Consciousness is 'aware' of the imagery in the mind and we call that 'reality'. However this 'reality' only exists as imagery in our mind. Our mind consists of holographic thought forms being viewed by our consciousness.

Consciousness exhibits variable levels of awareness regarding this 'reality' generation system.

Ultimately our consciousness is simply a viewpoint within the universal consciousness.

By disengaging our individual consciousness viewpoint from its obsessive viewing of the imagery in our mind (The Matrix) we are able to look over our shoulder, so to speak, and view our connection to the universal consciousness

Edit: I'm thinking that the term 'spirit' is a way of designating the presence of a viewpoint of universal consciousness within the wave forms of our reality, as observed by effects created in the wave forms of that reality
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2018 - 07:26pm PT
Are you equating this with "levels of awareness" alpha, delta, etc,?

Yes

One of the four worlds of spirit is the world of spirits?

Yes, but not yet to the point of explaining that




Spherical Harmonics Reveal Standing EEG Waves and Long-Range Neural Synchronization during Non-REM Sleep

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4916209/

I haven't looked at this in about 40 years, but I would bet there has been no progress, just like machine language "understanding".

interesting article

what the article doesn't tell you is that once you record a thought wave form, you can use it to broadcast that thought form to the general public as a form of mind control

modern technology won't catch up with ancient knowledge so long as everything is being analyzed backwards ... still the analysis attempts are fascinating ...

Machine language understanding is intriguing ... I used to work with Jaime Carbonell

machines can capture and record about any sort of thought form and can manipulate them in various ways ... but machines are not capable of creative thought ... that takes a viewpoint of consciousness ... that's why the Borg are trying to entrap us in transhumanism ... we don't need that because we can do it all within our natural abilities when not being scrambled and suppressed ... but the Borg needs us entrapped and are desperate to wrap us up in transhumanism before we figure out our native capabilities ....
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 2, 2018 - 07:57pm PT
Hmmm, zbrown's comment brings me to the thought that what was once measured and described as alpha, theta, etc. is just a simple way of describing something that is more complex and perhaps more measurable than when that info became hip.

There is always the many ways we can describe things and then, what is really going on.

One can, to the the degree they are capable, experience what is really going on.

How that is described is where we get lost.

the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Feb 2, 2018 - 08:26pm PT
I think it's less likely that consciousness has created reality vs. reality is like Schrödinger's cat where from all the possible universes (different physics, passage of time, etc) consciousness has allowed this particular universe with this expression of time to coalesce into what we perceive.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 3, 2018 - 06:49am PT
Yes, reality is all interconnected as quantum thought wave forms.

No, the brain does not create consciousness....LOL! That's about like a scientist declaring that the automobile creates the driver!

Consciousness creates the mind/brain/body/world as imagery in the mind, and reality only exists as such in the mind.



Didn't say the brain "creates" mind or consciousness etc. Anytime you talk in causal terms you are almost certainly out of the mind/consciousness/awareness loop and back to physicalism. That's what makes this a tricky study.

The inverse of the brain creating consciousness is that consciousness creates the brain. You're till hacking around with causation, which is mostly a search for fundamental or first "efficient" causes.

Go to awareness itself, generally referred to as unborn and uncaused, whereas content is clearly generated by the brain. When content meets awareness we have consciousness. Ours is more nuanced than a dog's because our brains are capable of generating more nuanced content.

I'll try and comment on brain waves later.I spent a bunch of years with neurofeedback and cocking around with EEGs and qEEGs. More interesting than bandwidth is coherence, amplitude, etc. Frequencies don't denote levels of awareness, rather the general nature of content. For example, Alpha is usually chill. High Beta is buckled down thinking. Awareness is the same phenomenon throughout. But the content changes as you surf the bandwidths.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2018 - 09:06am PT
Agreed, John!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 3, 2018 - 09:14am PT
That much said, I am quite sure I don't know any thing for certain about any of this. The most I hope for is a model that makes the best sense based on my experience and noodling the empirical evidence.

Thing is, consciousness is a rabbit hole, or a circus mirror, and it seems the deeper we look into it, the less it conforms to a classical model.

But I could easily be wrong about all of it.

d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Feb 3, 2018 - 10:08am PT
http://www.nonduality.com/asmi5.htm

One can only respond to experience depending upon ones concious level.

I alone am.
reallyy big star

Social climber
some, place
Feb 3, 2018 - 10:19am PT
ok.
put a nickel in my can...

your attempt to quantify and corral
the mystery kills the wind that fill
your soul's sail.

this shite is mysterious on purpose.
by design. if we could put it all into an equation,
then we'd smile for a moment or two and
then drink ourselves into oblivion.

don't be conscious.
don't be aware.

i encourage kindness.
and courage.

export those two values unto the greater world
and you'll still understand naught, but stillness
will saddle you.

that's the greatest compliment, here upon this ball of dirt.
when stillness chooses you as a companion.

then you're married. and really f*#king wise.
because stillness does not choose dumb cnunts for mates.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Feb 3, 2018 - 10:35am PT
OP wrote-
On several occasions I have politely tried to steer discussions in the direction of accepting that there is in fact the presence and existence of consciousness and awareness, so perhaps we could discuss an existing observable truth about which much can be learned beyond speculation as to how it can even be present. Such discussions so far have invariably been driven straight off the rails by collapsing back into discussions about how consciousness is created from the material universe. So long as that fixed opinion is held, there is little further exploration of awareness.
Perhaps the discussion of consciousness, being derived from the material universe, is driven off the rails by self absorbed tripping.

I find it hard to delineate the emergence of consciousness from our physical evolution when artifacts, paintings, and social advancements of our ancestors shows that they, species by species and generation by generation, grappled with with these same questions of awareness in incremental complexity. Nonetheless, we are where we are and I enjoy discussions solely devoted to consciousness. Sorry to interrupt...
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 3, 2018 - 04:33pm PT
Op. Cit.

Let me be the first to say that the paper is actually quite interesting and some nouveau relationships are being established.

Reviews much of the literature (2016) and has the ton of references required of academics.


We conclude that spherical harmonics are a hallmark of spontaneous, large-scale synchronization of neural activity in the brain, which are associated with unconscious, light sleep. The analogy with spherical harmonics in quantum mechanics suggests that the variances (eigenvalues) of the principal components follow a Boltzmann distribution, or equivalently, that standing waves are in a sort of “thermodynamic” equilibrium during non-REM sleep. By extension, we speculate that consciousness emerges as the brain dynamics deviate from such equilibrium.

other tidbits

More generally, it is well-known from geophysics and climate research that the principal components of spatiotemporal patterns of physical parameters, such as surface sea-water temperature or air pressure, represent stationary (i.e., non-propagating) oscillations, also known as standing waves (Storch and Zwiers, 2001). Standing waves are spatially constrained oscillations where each point over the spatial domain is associated with a constant maximum amplitude over time, giving rise to nodes where the amplitude is consistently zero. On a spherical domain, standing waves appear as spherical harmonics with multiple poles where the amplitude of the wave is maximized. By definition, the principal components identify spatial locations with a coherent fluctuating pattern, a property that can be used to detect stationary climate oscillations such as El Niño or the North Atlantic Oscillation (Storch and Zwiers, 2001).

In neuroscience, the existence of standing EEG waves was already predicted by early neural mass models of brain activity (Nunez, 1981), which have been expanded and refined ever since (Nunez, 1998; Nunez and Srinivasan, 2006a,b). Those models also predict that, since the human head conforms to a sphere, EEG signals can be mathematically expanded into a basis of spherical harmonics (Wingeier et al., 2001). However, to the best of our knowledge, no empirical evidence for physical waves in the form of multipolar spherical harmonics has been provided to date.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2018 - 09:45pm PT
Didn't say the brain "creates" mind or consciousness etc. Anytime you talk in causal terms you are almost certainly out of the mind/consciousness/awareness loop and back to physicalism. That's what makes this a tricky study.

John goes right to the heart of the challenge here. How do you talk about the nature of the world of the spirit in a culture that officially, scientifically and academically doesn't believe there is such a thing except as outgrown and dis-proven mythology?

Whether I or anyone else on this thread believes in the world of the spirit, that is still really the subject of this thread. There are several dimensions to the challenge:

1. Many people have been raised from childhood and for their entire adulthood to disbelieve in any such thing.

2. Our language contains very few terms that can be used to discuss the subject, and most of those terms are pejorative and hardly useful for discussing a complex domain.

3. If you try to describe the world of the spirit using familiar terms, you are using the same terms as are used to describe the material universe, and so immediately introducing a source of confusion and potential misunderstanding.

4. There are many cultures around the world where the belief structures and language are designed to eloquently describe the world of the spirit, but their language does not translate well into English and sounds weird when people try to use our language to describe their concepts of understanding.

5. Those spiritually oriented cultures have for centuries been targeted by proselytising western culture priests.

6. When the priests don't succeed in converting the native peoples to western views of reality, then they are targeted for genocide by the western militaries.

7. The western materialsitic culture is very conveniently set up to allow control of populations ... so anyone who starts thinking outside the Matrix is heavily discouraged.

8. Even when evidence is discovered, as in quantum physics, then scientists go through conniption fits (i.e. Big Bang, Black Holes, String Theory, Multiverses, Dark Energy, Dark Matter) trying to develop alternative explanations in line with materialistic perspectives.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 4, 2018 - 09:05am PT
Do you want to talk about spirit or why "we" have such a hard time talking about spirit?
i-b-goB

Social climber
Wise Acres
Feb 4, 2018 - 10:32am PT

The gift of consciousness & awareness connects us to everything, to ourselves, others, what we are doing, feelings, love, life, and all that is!






TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2018 - 05:33pm PT
It is interesting that in this age of internet communications and ease of publishing and communicating, how many spiritual teachers have gained large audiences interested in learning and expanding their personal levels of awareness. Eckhart Tolle is certainly one of these teachers and a major influence in the lives of many people. My library includes his book 'The Power of Now'.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2018 - 06:22pm PT
There have been several questions about these observed levels of awareness, so I'd like to come back to these.

Note that some of the primitive peoples consider the world of the spirit to be the real world where they spend much of their time and where the important things in life happen ... and what we call 'the real world' ... they call a' waking dream' or sometimes 'dream time'.

[Note that one of the first things you discover upon studying the knowledge, skills, and abilities of primitive peoples, is that primitive does not mean inferior, retarded or foolish. We are so enamoured with our science and technology as to not realize that these are unnecessary crutches which have actually hobbled and degraded our natural abilities. The why on this is an entire another subject from this thread.]

So I'll go back to the layers referenced earlier as identified by science and expand upon them a little bit using knowledge from some of the primitive peoples.

One way to think of these veils or layers of bands of energy by analogy is as the layers of an onion, with the ego in the center and with expanded states of awareness reaching outwards through the layers of the onion. Note that the people perceiving these veils or bands of spiritual energy are able to exhibit extraordinary body and mental control.

[Although this can be one convenient way of thinking about it, note that it is really not appropriate or a definitive model of the world of the spirit, if only because the increases in awareness could just as well or preferably be modeled by layers looking inwards from the ego. We are not talking here about our somewhat familiar world of Einsteinium space-time and our language is not well adapted for talking about these domains.]


Beta 14-30 Hz normal alert consciousness
The Ego, I, the logical mind, the world of the flesh

Alpha 9-13 Hz relaxed, calm, not thinking
This Alpha band is subdivided in two:
Alpha A is the World of the Subconscious (note this doesn't mean unconscious ...) the world of all memory, emotions, feelings, body control, healing, Inner Vision ... eight veils
Alpha B is the World of the Life Force that moves in all things
i.e. "My the Force be with you" ... eight veils

Theta 4-8 Hz deep relaxation, meditating, imagery
The World of the Spirit .... 16 veils

Delta 1-3 Hz deep, dreamless sleep
Oneness, The Void, superconsciousness, The Sacred Silence, consciousness of all things ... 4 veils

Inner Vision is the communicator ... "the voice of the creator" ... you can get to complete memory through Inner Vision
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2018 - 07:07pm PT
The Proceedings of the IEEE Vol 70, No 2 February 1982 published an interesting paper by Robert G Jahn, the Dean of the School of Engineering and Applied Science of Princeton University; "The Persistent Paradox of Psychic Phenomena: An Engineering Perspective.

I have noticed that most scientific investigations into the realm of spiritual awareness do not in fact explore the worlds of the spirit. Instead such studies restrict themselves to examining the finger prints and foot prints left behind by the spirit world that are visible within the material universe.

The paper mentioned above notes the following Categories of Psychic Phenomena:

I. Extrasensory Perception (ESP)
A. Telepathy
B. Clairvoyance
C. Precognition/Retrocognition
II. Psychokinesis (PK)
A. Physical Systems
B. Biological Systems
III. Survival
A. Reincarnation
B. Apparitions
C. Mediumship
IV. Out-of-Body Experiences (OBE)


Studies in these areas are particularly frustrating to research scientists, as science is restricted to searching out universal laws exhibited in provable repetitive experiments. The creative and imaginative world of the spirit holds to no such 'laws of nature' and frustrates any such attempt at determining predictive behavior. Serious scientific investigations are able to identify specific irrefutable instances of paranormal activity. But predictable repetitiveness is not attainable. This is particularly frustrating as intentional conscious attempts by capable people to demonstrate their capabilities tend to not work. Producing effects within the material world tend to work when real life events are driven by Inner Vision ... not just for learning or demonstrating ego capabilities.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2018 - 08:50pm PT
© 2010 State University of New York Press, Albany
Common Themes in American Indian Philosophy

... one of its consequences important to this volume is that speakers of radically different languages—using radically different systems of identification, categorization, and ordering—will conceive of the world in radically different ways. Different words make different worlds. So, any translation of an American Indian language into a Western language, no matter how carefully or neutrally crafted, will recast Native thought into the conceptual categories—hence, the ontology—of the Western language. Indeed, I argue later that much of our talk about “spirits” in the Native world version makes this very mistake, giving American Indian beliefs an unwarranted air of mysticism in Western popular culture—and in the academy—because of the supernatural connotations of the Western category spirit.... After several years of reflection, I have come to believe that native Shawnee speakers specifically, and the old Indians in general, lived in a radically different world than ours

http://sunypress.edu/pdf/62007.pdf

Donald Fixico (2003), an American Indian history professor, anticipates two of our four common themes in American Indian philosophy, relatedness and circularity as world-ordering principles, when he observes that: “Indian Thinking” is “seeing” things from a perspective emphasizing that circles and cycles are central to the world and that all things are related within the universe. . . . “Seeing” is visualizing the connection between two or more entities or beings, and trying to understand the relationship between them.

There is another very curious and interesting fact in Indian philosophy. They do not separate man from the beast by any broad line of demarcation. Mankind is supposed simply to be one of the many races of animals; in some respects superior, in many others inferior, to those races. So the Indian speaks of “our race” as of the same rank with the bear race, the wolf race or the rattlesnake race.

I conclude that an American Indian world is, indeed, numbered among the internally consistent, equally privileged, well-made actual worlds and so it is worthy of philosophical treatment—and respect—from the Western perspective.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2018 - 09:35pm PT


TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2018 - 09:59pm PT
yeah, big cats are fast and strong ... i used to wrestle with my adult pet cougar and i've been involved with a lot of big cats, including a big wild cougar that comes around my house here ... their job is to tend the deer herd ... they do need to eat, just like you do ... lots easier to make friends when well fed ... are you a carnivore? ... are you hungry? ... how close is your relationship to your latest prey?

Nearly all the tribes in the Congo Basin either are or have been cannibals; and among some of them the practice is on the increase. Races who until lately do not seem to have been cannibals, though situated in a country surrounded by cannibal races, have, from increased intercourse with their neighbours, learned to eat human flesh.

this subject is actually relevant to this thread, but i wasn't going to go there ... so how about we leave it alone at that ...
WBraun

climber
Feb 4, 2018 - 09:59pm PT
Brennan, you are an animal because your consciousness is material and animalistic.

A human beings consciousness is above the animalistic stage,

Brennan will devolve back into animal in next life.

Many so-called humans are actually still polished animals and haven't yet risen above the animal consciousness so in reality they are NOT human beings yet .....
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2018 - 10:22pm PT
So to get the discussion back on course:

One of the challenges of 'modern' life is to make that first step out of Beta state up into Alpha. There are various ways to do this worth knowing, including how you walk and how you look, that I will discuss later.

However one of the simplest methods is called the Breath to Heart sequence. There are all sorts of physical and emotional distractions that can bring you down, as a quick inventory of sensations and emotions reveals. So the old saying is, "take a deep breath." That's a good start:

1. So take a deep full breath and hold it, hold it, hold it ...

2. As you continue to hold it, the urge becomes strong to release the breath and take another one. Concentrate all your attention on that urge

3. As the urge to breathe becomes stronger, take all the other sensations and emotions that have been distracting you and push them into that urge to breathe

4. You will reach a point where you can sense your heart pounding. At that point release the breath ... and with it release all those other distracting sensations and emotions from your body

You may want to repeat this a few times if appropriate ... This is also a good way to launch into a meditation session ...or a challenging climb

Incidentally it is worthwhile to realize that breathing through your nose is a carefully designed feature of your body to keep the O2/CO2 balance during strenuous exercise. There is sometimes a strong urge to start breathing through your mouth, which turns out to be a mistake. The problem is not getting enough air/oxygen, but keeping that balance. Young Apache runners used to train by running up a hill and back while holding a mouth full of water, which they would spit out at the end of the run to prove they had been breathing only through their nose. One reason for doing this is so you aren't blowing away the water in your body. But the main reason is to maintain the proper oxygen partial pressure balance. I first learned about this from Royal Robbins on one of our early climbs together, hiking up to the base of the Jensen's Ridge on Symmetry Spire in the Tetons.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 4, 2018 - 10:40pm PT
It has been my experience that climbers in general become quite experienced with a multitube of mind levels and brain functions intuitively or even out of necessity without being exposed to some system of jargon.

And it isn't special, it's just what we do.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2018 - 10:48pm PT
Yep. That's why I'm chatting here rather than a zillion other online venues.

I think of climbing as a moving meditation.

What good is meditation if you can't move in it? Once you reach a state of serene awareness, you should be able to move in it, walk, create, dance, climb ...

I think that's something very special in today's world.

And if your mental discipline practice can help you maintain focus on the appropriate band of awareness for the activity, then you are 'in the zone'
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 4, 2018 - 10:52pm PT
Heal...

Special perhaps to someone who is unfamiliar with these things. But I also think that attitude that one is doing something special can be a trap. Especially when it is not really difficult with the correct motivation.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2018 - 11:28pm PT
So this touches on a couple of other topics: harmonics and entrainment.

Harmonics is a term from music and sound that also applies to radio waves, electrical transmission, and etheric waves. In music these are overtones at a higher pitch than the original tone, such as the fundamental vibration frequency of a violin string. These are positive integer multiples of the frequency of the original wave.

So accepting the concept that levels of awareness have a specific frequency associated them, and that certain levels of awareness at a particular etheric frequency are more appropriate for a particular activity such as climbing a jam crack ... then that implies that if you are able to maintain the mental discipline of holding to that frequency, then you will be able to climb much more efficiently. Plus there is an opportunity to further tune that to a higher harmonic and dramatically again enhance your ability to perform that activity. Through a disciplined focus you maintain that mental frequency and add your creative energy to it and the fact that you are operating on an optimum frequency also means that your energy is utilized much more efficiently.

Entrainment is a related term having to do with how you may be able to climb much better in the company of a partner who is much more expert than you. The way it works in music is that if you have two violins near each other, and you play a tone on one, the second violin will begin resonating on that same tone. The same is true with etheric vibrations. If you are climbing with a highly energetic and confident partner, the enthusiasm and confidence 'rubs off on you' and you surprise yourself in how much you outdo your usual performance level. Rupert Sheldrake calls this morphic resonance and is very interested in seeing how this applies to rock climbing. This entrainment or morphic resonance tends to permeate the close knit climbing community and when someone makes a breakthrough in skill and confidence, that tends to propagate throughout the community.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2018 - 11:41pm PT
Special perhaps to someone who is unfamiliar with these things. But I also think that attitude that one is doing something special can be a trap. Especially when it is not really difficult with the correct motivation.

We are talking about two things in parallel here. True that rock climbing may seem comfortably familiar to a skilled climber, while seeming incredible to a Kansas farmer. It has a lot to do with what you are familiar with, and that can be associated if you wish to think of it this way as good vibrations for rock climbing. You could probably take that hard working fit farmer and teach him to climb pretty quickly, if he catches your enthusiasm.

And yes, there is a trap, and the temptation of that trap is called ego stroking...which is a very unenlightened state of being that seems to infest some aspects of the climbing community.
mooch

Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Riverkern Annex)
Feb 5, 2018 - 07:28am PT
Dear God....."What Is "MIND"?" Part 2. I miss the days of OUCH.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2018 - 08:10pm PT
Our body/brain/mind/awareness system represents an awesome refinement of complex balanced systems engineering that is highly specialized for long distance wilderness operations. Urban living tampers with this system and as with any complex system, tampering with it introduces a while series of unanticipated unfortunate side effects.

One common factor tending to entrap modern people in the Beta Level 'World of the Flesh' is our way of walking and looking...'heel pounding' and 'tunnel vision'.

The remedy is to practice 'fox walking' and 'wide angle vision'...which in combination tend to pop your level of awareness right out of the very limiting Beta level of awareness and up into one of the Alpha levels of awareness.

Heel Pounding

The usual way of urban walking is to put one foot out in front of the other and tilt forward so the entire weight of the body lands forcefully on the heel. Then body weight rotates forward over that foot and repeats 'heel pounding' on the next foot.

This method of walking is unnatural for the way the complex systems of our bodies are designed and introduces a whole series of problems:

Dropping the full weight of the body down on the heel with the skeleton rigid, sends a shock resonating up and down the spine between the foot and the skull.

This repetitive physical shock tends to reduce awareness.

The shock tends to induce migraine headaches.

The shocks accumulate to cause spine and joint problems.

This method of walking on level ground makes little or no use of the major muscles in the body designed for travel, resulting in flabby buttocks....which thus become better adapted for car seats and couches...

One of the major features of the human body designed for long distance running is the Achilles Tendon, a spring designed to cushion the shock of the foot against the ground and to conserve energy for springing forward on the next step. This tends to weaken when not exercised and makes it particularly vulnerable to injury under the unusual stresses of rock and ice climbing. This does create a major business opportunity for expensive heel cushioning running shoes, which of course further encourages weakening the incredibly efficient design of the human foot. There are several large and very successful companies that would rather you don't know about this.

When a person accustomed to this 'heel pounding' method of walking or running leaves the level ground of floors, sidewalks and prepared trails, then full attention has to be given to where the next foot is going to fall on the uneven terrain. This artificially induced safety requirement substantially reduces situational awareness into 'tunnel vision'.

Experienced trackers can quickly identify urban vs native peoples by the presence or absence of these heel dents (along with several other factors visible in the tracks) ... which dents in softer ground make tracking much easier ...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2018 - 08:46pm PT
Fox Walking

Yes, walking barefoot does tend to encourage a more natural gait.

So whatever footwear you do or don't wear depending upon conditions and the amount of broken glass or ocotillo spines on the ground, you can with a little practice adopt a more natural gait that is easier on your body and requires less focused attention.

So as before, you put one foot out in front of the other ... duh ... however don't just let your body weight fall forward and slam down on the heel. Use the muscles of your hind leg to lower your weight straight down until the forward foot just touches the ground. Now you are using those major muscles as they are designed to move just this way.

So as the foot comes down, you first touch the ground with the outside of your foot, rotate down to the ball of the foot and then the heel. Only after you have confirmed a secure stance for the foot, do you move your weight forward onto it. Your weight tends to stay balanced on the hind foot most of the time. This also allows you to stand straighter and breath deeper. If you have to stop or dodge suddenly, you can do so without having to slam off your committed forward momentum.

Now you don't have to focus at the ground right where your next foot is going, as your forward foot can feel out whether there is a secure foot placement, and shift a bit to a more secure stance when needed.

This can seem a little awkward at first, and somewhat slower, but quickly becomes a natural way of moving and picking up speed. This is even a way to run with less effort over long distances...the efficiencies add up as you are using your body the way it is designed to move. On soft or rugged terrain, the efficiencies multiply as you gain skill at it. And you are less prone to foot and ankle injuries due to a misstep.

This is particularly useful or even critical at night or any time you can't see well... or especially when you want to have your attention not just focused on the ground in front of you, but all around and above you ... rock fall anyone?...

If you want to watch how the native people move who are used to running tirelessly all day, watch the movies "The Gods Must Be Crazy". Just think about trying to keep up all day with one of those little African Bushmen...

And if you are more worried about speed than awareness ... well did you ever try to chase a Tarahumara?

I do recommend the book "Born to Run"
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2018 - 09:15pm PT
Wide Angle Vision

So one aspect of the Beta Level of Awareness is a narrow visual focus or 'tunnel vision' as is carefully taught to urban peoples from a very young age. The teacher no longer has to prompt students to not look out the window, as the classrooms are being built with no windows. Focus on the teacher, on the TV, on the cell phone, on the lane you are driving. So many things in urban society require focused attention.

This translates in rock climbing to just the trail ahead or the route ahead or even just the next move or the next piece or how much slack is in the rope. This tunnel vision is especially dangerous in the mountains where hazards can suddenly appear from any direction.

However our visual system has another mode of operation, which is wide angle vision. The clarity of focus is not as great, but the field of view goes all the way from one side to the other and up and down. If you forget the point of focus and just let your attention expand across that entire field of view, there are a couple of interesting things that happen.

One is that we can pick up on the tiniest of motions, the twitch of a squirrel's tail, a mouse under a leaf, a pecking bird, the quiet release of a falling rock high overhead! ...

The second thing is that you will no longer be stuck in the Beta level of awareness, but will move up into one of the Alpha bands ... and your performance will improve at everything you attempt.

If you fox walk down the trail in wide angle vision, you are guaranteed to see a lot more in nature than if you just pound down the trail to the climb and then back to the car ... lots more fun in life ...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2018 - 10:26pm PT
Sounds like you were moving very well with quiet safe thoughts

Yes, if you look at a deer's foot, there is a hard rim and a soft inner pad. The rim sort of digs into the soil and the pad is very sensitive to vibration.

I have sat up on a hill and watched deer move away from a stalking hunter a quarter mile away, long before they could see him.

I was once stalking up close to a large buck in Fort Belvoir, when it suddenly took off, leaving me wondering where I made a mistake. A little while later a hunter came along and didn't notice me until he actually stepped on my back. LOL

And the deer do normally bed down where they can see anyone approaching and slip away. The deer have their territory all mapped out with many tricky ways to misdirect pursuers
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
Feb 6, 2018 - 12:43am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
WBraun

climber
Feb 7, 2018 - 08:09am PT
Some guy on this forum resurrected an old thread and posted in it "How did I ever miss this"

All while we walk/drive down the path and miss an infinite number of things around us at every second.

And simultaneously make arrogant statements there is nothing beyond what we can measure or see with our puny little selves.

The conscious level of awareness of the living entity is always very limited and given on a need to know basis according to time and circumstance.

The foolish arrogant gross materialists can never gain complete knowledge independently without the higher authorities that they so constantly, arrogantly and blindly dismiss ......

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2018 - 11:07am PT
Yes ...

From science magazine Wonderpedia:

Every second, 11 million sensations crackle along these brain pathways ... The brain is confronted with an alarming array of images, sounds and smells which it rigorously filters down until it is left with a manageable list of around 40. Thus 40 sensations per second make up what we perceive as reality.

Our 'reality' which seems so real is constructed every second from 40 snapshots of information ('sensations') from a potential 11 million. The other 10,900,060 are absorbed by our subconscious mind while we remain consciously oblivious of their existence. Quantum physics explores the hidden realms beyond our 'seen' and has demolished the material, solid, clockwork model of reality pedaled for so long by mainstream science.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Feb 7, 2018 - 12:01pm PT
Seriously, I quit using my brain decades ago. Too slow and constricting.

Store memories elsewhere, such as hands, out to the right, and in places such as office, etc.

Ideally get rid of various memory tricks and recreate all knowledge in the present.

Can't fit inside of head anymore either. Walk down a street and feel the fronts of the buildings, sidewalk, curb, lamposts, other people moving in 3 dimensions. Feel the traffic. Operating a body from outside is way more comfortable.

People get all excited about this concept but it is no big deal.

Fact is, we are all doing it. Some have just been sold the bullshite that we are nothing more than bio-chemical-bio-electric reactions going off inside a meat organ. Hysterical! It's fooking hard work being stuck inside a brain. But obviously if you work real hard you can do it.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 7, 2018 - 12:18pm PT
NOT that it matters much, but it has happened a number of times.

http://www.supertopo.com/forumsearch.php?v=0&cur=0&ftr1=&ftr2=ever+miss+this&ftr3=&ftr4=&scope=all
No God

Mountain climber
MT
Feb 7, 2018 - 02:11pm PT
@WBRAUN. I'm tired of you calling everyone stoopid. Show some respect. We get it, you're religulous. Calling people arrogant for needing justification for their beliefs makes you look ignorant. The ultimate arrogance is yours, assuming you have all the answers to life and death because some mythical book told you so. How is it that you know that there is anything that binds all life together, and survives after death? How does one know the unknowable and unproven? Why does anyone believe in a soul? Just for comfort, I think. Why would anyone believe in something that both defies logic and has no proof?

I think it's hilarious when religious people call atheists arrogant for "knowing everything". We know what can be proven and seen. Religion claims to have all the answers to life, death, morality, etc. Which leads to the question, which religion is the right one? You can see where this is going. Personally, I don't believe in a soul, god, or other magical stuff. We've evolved from single cell organisms. We hang for 75 years and then die like a blade of grass. You're like a damn broken record. Give it up.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2018 - 02:27pm PT
Agent Smith, you are barking up the wrong thread here ... there are others catering to your heavily protected perspective that the Matrix is real
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Feb 7, 2018 - 03:35pm PT
Very sensible rant. WB is so positive he is gone around and come in the back door of being very negative and not helpful. Everyone everywhere is wrong all the time. "No God" speaks for a perfectly valid group of believers.



But tell me this:


How can you prove to me that I am NOT an immortal soul?
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Feb 7, 2018 - 03:49pm PT
How can you prove to me that I am NOT an immortal soul?


Tell me what Helen of Troy was thinking when Hector died.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 7, 2018 - 04:09pm PT
Our 'reality' which seems so real is constructed every second from 40 snapshots of information ('sensations') from a potential 11 million.
---


Not remotely so. The brain parses out content for awareness, but it doesn't do so by digitizing said content into "snapshots." That's what a digital camera does - freeze frames the stuff of consciousness, and via a play back, we get the impression that the resultant video is a fluid continuum.

Imagine a video capture device that didn't need to record by way of freeze frames, and instead could capture the uninterrupted flow of reality. Most people can't even imagine what such a device would look like.

Reality is smooth and continuous (not discrete/digital), and so is mind. The only way we can simulate mind is to do so by way of artificially dividing flow into a visual version of "rest mass," while we know that mass never actually rests.

This drives home Searle's point that "replication is not duplication."
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2018 - 10:55pm PT
Not remotely so. The brain parses out content for awareness, but it doesn't do so by digitizing said content into "snapshots." That's what a digital camera does - freeze frames the stuff of consciousness, and via a play back, we get the impression that the resultant video is a fluid continuum.

Imagine a video capture device that didn't need to record by way of freeze frames, and instead could capture the uninterrupted flow of reality. Most people can't even imagine what such a device would look like.

Reality is smooth and continuous (not discrete/digital), and so is mind. The only way we can simulate mind is to do so by way of artificially dividing flow into a visual version of "rest mass," while we know that mass never actually rests.

Yes, that's the classical view of physics. But that view has been thoroughly upset by Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and the quantum Zeno effect. Einstein struggled unsuccessfully to the end of his life trying to disprove these observations. I suspect the SLAC LCLS is peeking into these issues.

Quantum physics demonstrates that space and time don't exist in anything like the manner in which we experience them. They are tools of the mind that don't exist as objects external to our minds independent of conscious awareness. Space and time turn out to be forms of animal intuition, creating a local view of reality.

I understand when you've spent your life believing in the Matrix, it takes some getting used to shifting your perspective to see things the way they really are. I sympathize with Werner's frustration watching people walking around like zombies in fabricated reality.
No God

Mountain climber
MT
Feb 8, 2018 - 08:29am PT
@spider, obviously I can't prove that you don't have an immortal soul. but that's not how science works. We don't look to prove that something doesn't exist. We look for proof, evidence, and base judgments upon that. You can' tprove to me that there isn't a piece of chicken parmesan orbiting some distant star which controls our galaxy. Just because you can imagine something or someone told you something does not make it true. Fact based knowledge is the only road ahead. real facts too, not Trump facts.

I do agree with Tom that space and time, and many other concepts of physics and math are merely constructs of our mind and neurons. For example, we created an arbitrary number system and based a lot of things upon it. Change the base and everything else changes.

Also the matrix analogy to me seems more like religion and spirituality than science and facts. Religion is a carefully constructed fabrication to control people and tell them it will be all right when they or loved ones die.

It's strange to me how people assimilate consciousness and the soul/religion/spirituality. To me it's simply the idea that we know we are alive and will someday die. A sense of place in the world.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Feb 8, 2018 - 02:07pm PT
No God, your lack of faith is refreshing. Believing everything you're told is no way to higher consciousness and levels of awareness.

One may need to believe something is true for a time of testing but if it does not prove out to be true it must be recategorized as "didn't work."

The life force of humans, animals and plants has been measured and can easily be observed by simply looking at a live body next to a dead one.

I came to a certainty of my own awareness of my immortal existance through the use of an electronic device to objectively verify facts. More on this not forthcoming.

The fact is that mankind has advanced and is capable of advancing much further than generally known. Pathways to new levels of conciousness and awareness that work are usually viciously attacked and blocked with misinformation. For a long time the power on this planet has been held by those who profit from keeping humandkind in a sheep-like state.


TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2018 - 11:16pm PT
So there has been extensive scientific documentation of psychic phenomena happening. However the academic scientific community has not agreed upon any satisfactory physical theory of how psychic phenomena happens; as many scientists remain entranced and limited by observations within orthodox descriptions of the material universe.

One such theory has to do with the propagation of psychic effects by means of either electromagnetism or an analogous or related phenomena. Although electromagnetism doesn't provide a completely functional analogy, it does provide useful concepts such as wave propagation, standing waves, frequency, phase, complex wave functions, and wave functions collapse to physicality. All of these turn out to be perceivable in a non-physical sense during conscious explorations of spiritual awareness. Some scientists have even attributed psychic effects to electromagnetic radiation from brain circuitry or electromagnetic potentials which are measurable by laboratory equipment. Others contend that no such conservative model is adequate and that it is necessary to identify new forms of energy or information transfer to expand upon the established physical models. And some orthodox scientists postulate it may be necessary to expand the physical laws themselves, as was required in expanding classical mechanics to quantum mechanics and relativity theories. Some contemporary scientists have recognized, studied, and written extensively about this issue, such as Roger Penrose, Rupert Sheldrake and Robert Lanza.

However many discoveries have been suppressed from the planet's surface populations in order to maintain control. None-the-less many people have become aware that human populations can be manipulated using electronic means developed within the military industrial complex, such as TV, radio, cellular, and microwaves. What few realize is that such EM effects can be initiated from outside of what is normally known about the electromagnetic spectrum.

James Clerk Maxwell developed the equations for explaining how electromagnetism works. He is best known for formulating in 1864 the classical theory of electromagnetic radiation, combining electricity, magnetism, and light as different aspects of the same phenomenon. Maxwell's equations for electromagnetism have been called the "second great unification in physics" following the one realized by Isaac Newton.

Most modern scientists are unaware that Maxwell's original formulas for electromagnetism, also included gravity and etheric forces as integral components of the electromagnetic spectrum. This knowledge has been suppressed since these hyper-spatial components can be manipulated to influence human biology and consciousness and provide free energy. This is also why Nicola Tesla's work has been suppressed.

Maxwell's original equations gave the necessary information for gravitational propulsion and psychoactive devices, providing the foundations of electromagnetism, electro-gravitics, and Unified Field Theory.

Shortly after Maxwell's death in 1879, his work was edited and reinterpreted by mathematician Oliver Heaviside, chemist Willard Gibbs, and physicist Heinrich Hertz. Heaviside discarded the etheric fields components of Maxwell's equations, thinking they were 'akin to mysticism, because everybody knows that fields contain mass, and mass cannot be created from apparently nothing.'

A few years after Maxwell's death was the famous Michaelson-Morely experiment in 1887, which proved unable to measure any such etheric force. Since scientists could not measure it, then it obviously did not exist. So mathematicians scrubbed Maxwell's formulas of the relativistic/etheric potential vectors. They also postulated that electromagnetism and gravitation are mutually exclusive, not interdependent. That killed subsequent efforts to realize a functioning unified field theory. Electromagnetism was reduced from its original five dimensions to only four: X, Y, Z, and time. The element of G was removed. Maxell's original work is now only available to covert scientific compartments in the government.

The resulting simplified formulas are taught to most students of physics and electrical engineering. All orthodox electronic and scientific instrumentation outside classified government laboratories has been designed to measure force, electrical charge, and energy that is coupled to mass. Subtle energies where mass is not involved cannot be detected, much less measured. Hence it doesn't exist. Yet it is these so-called 'imaginary components' that co-exist with the 'real' components and affect the psychic and neurological functions of bio-systems. This has been one of the best kept secrets of government.

Now it's yours.

eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Feb 9, 2018 - 08:11am PT
In trying to find common ground with this thread, all I can come up with is I've always liked Good Vibrations by The Beach Boys. Otherwise, we're in serious tin-foil-hat territory here.
WBraun

climber
Feb 9, 2018 - 08:17am PT
You are soooooo closed minded.

You are stuck in body consciousness.

A human being transcends body consciousness.

Thus you are still in an animal consciousness and haven't come to the stage of a human being yet .....
No God

Mountain climber
MT
Feb 9, 2018 - 09:54am PT
Tom, I hope that was a joke.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2018 - 11:43am PT
Would you like to offer a technical explanation as to how these things fly?

These videos of F-18s chasing UFOs were front page news for the New York Times on Dec 16, 2017 and The Washington Post on Dec 18, 2017.


Right: U.F.O. video :34 is the oblong white object between the two parallel gun camera sight lines videotaped in infrared by U. S. Navy pilots flying F/A-18F fighter jet in 2004 near San Diego, California, and released to The New York Times on December 16, 2017.

Left: GIMBAL video 2:45 was officially released to The Washington Post on December 18, 2017. Both infrared fighter jet gun camera videos were released by the DoD's Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program (AATIP).

“The object's orientation and performance seem to defy
current principals of physics such as atmospheric resistance and normal
aerodynamic forces. During the orientation change, the UFO also
slows to a near stop, but does not change altitude.”- DoD Analysis of UFO in U. S. Navy F/A-18F fighter jet's gun camera infrared video

we hear US fighter pilots struggling to determine the nature of object. Key findings include:

• Low observability in both electro-optical and electromagnetic spectrums.

• No distinguishable flight surfaces.

• Lack of obvious propulsion system.

• Never-before-seen flight capabilities.

• Possible energy or resonance field of unknown nature.

The filename “GIMBAL” seems to be traceable to the unusual maneuvering of the UAP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=_kVT48VbS_A

transcript from audio:

Pilot one: “Yeah, that's a f*#king drone, bro.”

Pilot two: “There's a whole fleet of them. Look on the S. A. (situational awareness).”

Pilot one: “My gosh!”

Pilot two: “They're all going against the wind. The wind is 120 knots (138 mph) out of the west.”

Pilot one: “Look at that thing, dude!”

Pilot two: “That's not L. N. S. now, is it? It's ...”

Pilot one: “That is an L.N.S., dude.”

Pilot two: “Well, the FLIR...”

Pilot one: “Look at that thing! It's rotating!”

Commander David Fravor has had an 18-year-career in the Navy. The Washington Post describes the background of the more sensitive GIMBAL video as saying:

“The year was 2004. Fravor was the commanding officer of the VFA-41 Black Aces, a U. S. Navy strike fighter squadron of F/A-18 Hornet fighter planes doing an exercise some 60 to 100 miles off the coast between San Diego and Ensenada, Mexico, in advance of a deployment to the Persian Gulf for the Iraq War.” Commander Fravor says, 'As I get closer, as my nose is starting to pull back up, it (UFO) accelerates and it’s gone! Faster than I’d ever seen anything in my life.'”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUDXVESC6Tg

One of the F18 pilots remarked that they have about as much chance to catch one of these things as someone with a bow and arrow has trying to shoot a flying F-18.
No God

Mountain climber
MT
Feb 9, 2018 - 02:30pm PT
well that went in a weird direction...ah the internets.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2018 - 04:12pm PT
We're talking about a public release on the front page of two of the major newspapers in the country.

So who are you showing up anonymously on this thread with no former presence on this forum except for your few postings on this thread??
jogill

climber
Colorado
Feb 9, 2018 - 05:39pm PT
So there has been extensive scientific documentation of psychic phenomena happening

Has there?
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 9, 2018 - 06:54pm PT
well that went in a weird direction

You obviously didn't get the memo. At what point did you think this thread would comply with your worldview?

I hope Tom saw this coming.

So there has been extensive scientific documentation of psychic phenomena happening

Has there?

Extensive is a relative term. I think extensive enough to win a court case, perhaps. Extensive enough to alter the direction of scientific research? I doubt it. Who would pay for it? Extensive enough to change public opinion or corporate news propaganda? Time will tell.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2018 - 07:02pm PT

Yes
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 9, 2018 - 07:55pm PT
They are inversely proportional, Jim.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2018 - 08:16pm PT
“The world is so full of a number of things, I ’m sure we should all be as happy as kings.” ― Robert Louis Stevenson


So I have friends who are afraid to even think about getting into airplanes.

And I have other friends who have piloted airplanes many thousands of hours and made tens of thousands of skydives.

If I want to talk about setting up for a wingsuit rodeo, guess who I would seek to include in the conversation?


There is no shortage of literature on the subject of this thread and governments have invested immense funding into directly related academic and clandestine research.

I've been looking into this for six decades and found its subjects directly relevant to life in general, my AI professional career, and climbing in particular.

To the degree that you haven't looked into this ... well, you have a choice.


Did someone mention flying carpets?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HMdioj6kng
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2sT9KoII_M
jogill

climber
Colorado
Feb 9, 2018 - 08:57pm PT
A very good article, IMO, raising issues of methodology and inference:


https://slate.com/health-and-science/2017/06/daryl-bem-proved-esp-is-real-showed-science-is-broken.html


The author does not conclude that ESP does not exist.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2018 - 10:32pm PT
Yes, JohnGill, this is a very interesting article and nicely illustrates the difficulties of researching these topics in an academic environment.

Their lab work doesn't persuade me personally in any particular direction, but simply reminds me why I moved out of the psychology and sociology departments of my university...

Academics are still trying to understand the spirit world by looking for effects that can be replicated in the material world.

Spiritual actions certainly can and do effect the material world, however generally as events driven by Inner Vision and unique to specific and often emotionally charged circumstances ... not a contrived and boring lab environment.

The Nazis mind benders do a much better job in that regard, but somehow polite society doesn't seem impressed by their ethical character and concern for their subjects.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra

As I've pointed out many times, one of the key challenges of the sciences is trying to prove repeatable results in a world of unique circumstances.

It is very impressive how many laws of nature have been researched and established, but even most of these have unique exceptions showing up as research progresses....and I'll defer to Ed and his peers in that regard...

In particular all this research makes Agent Smith work overtime repairing damage to The Matrix!

By 2001, Bem had mostly set aside his mainstream work and turned to writing commentaries and book reviews on psi phenomena. He’d also quietly embarked upon a major scientific quest, to find what he called “the holy grail” of parapsychology research: a fully reproducible experiment on ESP that any lab could replicate. His most important tool, as a scientist and rhetorician, would be simplicity. He’d work with well-established protocols, using nothing more than basic tests of verbal memory, priming, and habituation. He’d show that his studies weren’t underpowered, that his procedures weren’t overcomplicated, and that his statistics weren’t convoluted. He’d make his methods bland and unremarkable.

In 2003, 2004, 2005, and 2008, Bem presented pilot data to the annual meeting of the Parapsychological Association. Finally, in 2010, after about a decade’s worth of calibration and refinement, he figured he’d done enough. A thousand subjects, nine experiments, eight significant results. This would be his solid, mainstream proof of ESP—a set of tasks that could be transferred to any other lab.

Ross made his name as a psychologist, in part, by demonstrating that people often cling to their beliefs in the face of any challenge, no matter how profound. Bem’s paper struck him as an interesting challenge for the field. “You have a belief, and here’s some data that contradict it,” he said. “I thought it was time for a discussion [of] how we deal with surprising results in psychology.”

Wagenmakers drafted a rebuttal, to be published in JPSP alongside the original research. The problems he saw in Bem’s paper were not particular to paranormal research. “Something is deeply wrong with the way experimental psychologists design their studies and report their statistical results,” Wagenmakers wrote. “We hope the Bem article will become a signpost for change, a writing on the wall: Psychologists must change the way they analyze their data.”

medical doctor and statistician John Ioannidis published a short but often-cited essay arguing that “most published research findings are false.” Among the major sources of this problem, according to Ioannidis, was that researchers gave themselves too much flexibility in designing and analyzing experiments—that is, they might be trying lots of different methods and reporting only the “best” results.

Wagenmakers would later write that psi researchers such as Bem deserve “substantial credit” for the current state of introspection in psychology, as well as for the crisis of confidence that is now spreading into other areas of study. “It is their work that has helped convince other researchers that the academic system is broken,” he said, “for if our standard scientific methods allow one to prove the impossible, than these methods are surely up for revision.”

psi researchers proffer a different interpretation: Maybe this has less to do with the researcher’s expectation than with his ability as a psychic medium. “If it’s possible that consciousness influences reality and is sensitive to reality in ways that we don’t currently understand, then this might be part of the scientific process itself,” says Schooler. “Parapsychological factors may play out in the science of doing this research.”
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2018 - 11:23pm PT
It seems to me that emotions are properties of awareness on a gradient scale from apathy to grief, fear, anger, antagonism, boredom, conservative, up to enthusiasm. (not a list originated by me)

It may be possible to associate each of these with specific mental frequencies related to the discussion on levels of awareness. If the different emotions are associated with frequencies, that's not something I know about, but seems likely to me.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2018 - 02:07pm PT
Certainly consciousness effects the material universe. Consciousness creates the material universe and permeates every aspect of it.

The material universe is the way it is because consciousness makes the agreements to create it this way.

Any tampering with these highly energetic and finely tuned material agreements can be very risky...as strongly reinforced by the allegorical Agent Smith...

In order to change the 'natural' agreements of the material universe, as in demonstrating PK or ESP or OBE; first there has to be an appropriate reason to do so....motivated by what can be called Inner Vision...

Learning for curiosity's sake is not usually a strong enough motivation to change basic agreements as to how the material universe is working, especially when ego righteousness gets involved.

Sometimes events come about in life where all bets are off and altruistic superhuman abilities can happen...however 'pushing your luck' is not a great idea... [Famous last words: 'Hey, ya'll, watch this!']

Pushing the limits of human ability in order to enhance our experiencing of life can be a wonderful thing...especially when ego is kept in proper balance...

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 10, 2018 - 03:05pm PT
If the different emotions are associated with frequencies, that's not something I know about, but seems likely to me.


Having worked with EEg and qEEGs for years (up till about a decade ago), it's well established that brain waves and patterns (like coherence etc.) are associated with mental states.

EEG work is simple to understand but tricky to do. Since the voltage fluctuations measured at the electrodes (placed on your scalp) are very small, the recorded data is digitized and sent to an amplifier. The amplified data can then be displayed as a sequence of voltage values and band widths.

What gets interesting is once you get jiggy with the system and the feedback, you realize that consciousness and the brain are constantly feeding back on each other, so you end up with a chicken-and-the-egg kind of causal thing. That is, one can look at a skin magazine, experience arousal and see the brain wave patters change. Conversely, you can entrain the brain into certain patterns (coherent Alpha, for example) and the subject's subjective state will get more relaxed and expansive (or more focused in high beta).

Oddly, when long time meditator's are wired up, the deeper states are related to greatly decreased brain wave activity (but MUCH higher coherence), denoting a quiet mind. Big surges and spikes and activity in one frequency, especially delta, usually spells problems.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2018 - 06:45pm PT
Yes, Largo, I agree with you and am familiar with that sort of equipment.

In the 1960s a Dr Olds at Cal Tech was pioneering this technology and I spent evenings and weekends in the labs working with some of these techniques. My senior thesis at the Occidental College Music Department in the 1960s had to do with using an EKG sensor cap like that as input controller to run an early vacuum tube Moog Synthesizer.

What I haven't done or seen done is to wire up an actor who is expert at stabilizing on each of the points of the emotional tone scale. I can imagine creating a map of wave forms associated with each point on the emotional tone scale. But I don't know how that map relates to the Beta, Alpha, Theta, Delta map. Perhaps there are identifiable wave forms that are somewhat independent of frequency, but relate to wave shape, harmonics, or phase shifting.

As you mention, once this has been done, it would be possible to broadcast these wave forms and entrain people into a particular emotional tone. My understanding from various sources is that this is in fact being done as a form of mind control. I just don't know the particulars aside from frequencies and the recording and broadcasting of thought wave forms as part of the non-lethal weapons programs.

In the 1980s I was involved with a company in Connecticut that was using EKG sensor caps and 3D modeling software to show how wave forms were propagating through the brain. It was expected that certain areas of the brain would light up relative to certain stimuli, such as a repetitive tone or flashing light. However what we were seeing was more like multi-colored (frequency) waves sloshing around in a bottle, with the whole brain actively responding to every sort of stimulus. It was also obvious when part of the brain was inactive, as from a stroke. The wave forms still sloshed all around, but left that injured area dark. You actually use all of your brain, not just 10%.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2018 - 06:50pm PT
Clearly the question, 'What is "Mind?"', is an interesting topic to think about.

So do you control your mind or does it control you?

Can you turn off your mind and stop thinking?

Can you be fully aware in present time without having to think?

Does your mind enhance awareness or does it get in the way of awareness?

Are you your mind?

Or are you simply possessed by it?

Do love, beauty, joy, and creativity arise as properties of the mind or from somewhere beyond the mind?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2018 - 07:01pm PT
"Do love, beauty, joy, and creativity arise as properties of the mind or from somewhere beyond the mind?"

mind is responsible for turning basal facts into notions such as love beauty and joy

creativity stretches out toward an actions to the point that I would disagree on a point but obviously its recognition is based on a particular state of mind

Yeah, so you skipped the other questions that are central to this issue.

A key question is can you turn off the mind and stop it's incessant thinking?

Some people would say no unless you are dead and gone.

I would say yes you certainly can, and doing that is an important step towards enlightened awareness. I first tried doing this while going alone into wilderness at about 12 years old before I had ever heard the term meditation. I've continued this as a practice all my life, and I still wouldn't exactly term it as meditation.

And I think that love, beauty, joy, and creativity are substantially enhanced by shutting down the thinking process ... it certainly seems to have helped my creative professional career in AI computing systems design ... genius thinkers who were busy trying to figure it all out intellectually have frequently been amazed by what I come up with while busily not thinking ...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2018 - 07:52pm PT
ive never come across a good analysis of creativity

You've just put your finger on the key problem with artificial intelligence.

To the extent that we can identify and chart out a thought process, we can replicate it in computing hardware/software.

And AI systems can very quickly restructure and reorganize thought processes in random/quasi-creative ways.

However AI systems will not and can not do original creative thought. That requires creative consciousness...preferably and optimally unencumbered by thinking...

Some members of the AI community fail to see the humor in a couple of my comments on the subject:

AI is what you study when you lack your own.

Artificial Intelligence ... just add water ...

This is the limiting problem and the huge risk that Elon Musk warns against about AI and the drive towards Tranhumanism.

The Transhumanists lack creative intelligence and are trying to entrap the human race in a state of robotic slavery. In this enslaved state, the creative intelligence will be entrapped as an energy source and nothing else.

This is why in the The Matrix movie, we see Morpheus (Laurence Fishburne) holding up a battery and telling Neo that this is what the human race has been turned into within the Matrix.

Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 10, 2018 - 11:34pm PT
I find the Matrix concept useful only up to a certain point. Fiction only crystallizes the time perception of a possible distortion.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2018 - 12:08pm PT
I find the Matrix concept useful only up to a certain point. Fiction only crystallizes the time perception of a possible distortion.

I agree.

Have you read the book? (non-fiction by Val Valerian)

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2018 - 01:31pm PT
Yes, I'm familiar with that story and with the challenges of language translation.

It turns out that humans don't really communicate using words. We communicate using shared experiential concept models and just use words to indicate which concept we are talking about.

When we don't have shared conceptual models, then we fail to communicate ... the challenge with this thread ...

Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 11, 2018 - 04:12pm PT
Have you read the book? (non-fiction by Val Valerian)

Oh, that matrix. Started it, but no. I am somewhat familiar with the subject material. That opens a whole new can of worms. Is this a normal planet? Is there such a thing?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2018 - 04:58pm PT
I have no idea how you would define a 'normal' planet.

And I am not tempted to take this thread off in that direction.

I will just say that most surface humans on this planet have very little or no idea what is going on around here .

Irrespective of any of that, I am convinced that developing conscious/spiritual awareness is everyone's highest priority
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2018 - 08:56pm PT
the alternative is perpetuation of enslavement
No God

Mountain climber
MT
Feb 12, 2018 - 09:31am PT
aliens and psychics. yes, yes. now that's the truth. You don't own the internet, Tom, as it turns out. I'll post whatever I want, where ever I want. Half our country think the earth is 4000 years old because of lack of education and religion, so I shouldn't be too surprised by the bs passed as fact in this thread. it would be funny, if it weren't so sad.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 12, 2018 - 02:54pm PT
I shouldn't be too surprised by the bs passed as fact in this thread. it would be funny, if it weren't so sad.
----


Pity the sad sac who judges others by their own intelligence, while guessing at yours as though his appraisal was itself a "fact."
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Feb 12, 2018 - 04:48pm PT
The pronouns in that last sentence are not working for me, Largo. Must be my Catholic school upbringing.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Feb 12, 2018 - 05:00pm PT
Just kinda passing through this mindf*#k of a discussion but the linkage between ketamine, out-of-body experience and resolution of treatment-resistant depression (not to mention quick and powerful dissociative analgesic effects!) needs further investigation and consideration, especially in this era of the opioid-dependent depressed middle american.


Daily oral ketamine for the treatment of depression and anxiety in patients receiving hospice care: a 28-day open-label proof-of-concept trial
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Feb 12, 2018 - 05:07pm PT
but GOD is a piece of chicken parmesan...
GOD has a special place for you in Hell, Locker (possibly, not far from me). But, in the short term, rock-on! I mean, why not?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 12, 2018 - 05:24pm PT
eeeeeeyonke, if by pronouns you mean a word that can function by itself as a noun phrase and that refers either to the participants in the discourse (e.g., I, you ) or to someone or something mentioned elsewhere in the discourse (e.g., she, it, this ), then you have me in a strict sense. But you flubbed it anyhow because you took an intentionally wonky riff and went literal on me ... according to the rules. Writers break the rules all the time to strike a conversational tone and interject guff and fun into the drift. Are you saying you didn't understand what I meant?

Funny thing here is that AI machines can't yet "understand" anything that tweaks the rules. We do have fun with literalists who take our writing symposiums. First task is to make them write a paragraph about something they recently experienced without reference to any facts, figures or data. Eyes roll. Even figurative language gives them fits because it's not "true," as though communication is actually math, but we're using words to "prove" whatever we are hacking on.

Go figure (literally).

We see a lot of his thinking in mind studies, as though anything but an equation is "poetry" or woo. It all harks back to the first assumption that quantifying is the only way to "know" anything. So you have someone studying a girl's parents, all their physical data, in the hopes of "understanding" all there is to know about their daughter, Petunia, who is the fruit of their (created by) loins. No need to even check out Petunia - or consciousness - when you have the source (brain). Some see a problem with this.

When Nagle said, the study of consciousness is not about what caused mind, but a study of what mind itself IS, so few people took the man at his word. A shame, really...
WBraun

climber
Feb 12, 2018 - 05:58pm PT
No God -- " Tom, as it turns out. I'll post whatever I want, where ever I want."

Yeah, you post alright, but never say anything because you know nothing to begin with.

Don't bother responding (we already know your brainwashed st00pid responses) as you're nothing but an idiot anonymous coward to boot ....
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Feb 12, 2018 - 09:13pm PT
OP-
I will just say that most surface humans on this planet have very little or no idea what is going on around here .
Really? Perhaps some surface people are willing to accept that, perhaps a universe of complexity, compassion, euphoria, wonderment, synergy, connectivity, infinity and awareness may have residence solely within the confines of our own minds. Would these self derived and self contained feelings of enlightenment be diminished from your perspective? Perhaps the physicalism of some surface people is actually the foundation of an open and evolving vessel that may, in time, transcend. By their own nature, some people need evidence, beyond the physical to accept a thing that has only been described in words by inherently fallible beings. Characterizations by snapshot in time shows such a lack of understanding and flexibility.

Irrespective of any of that, I am convinced that developing conscious/spiritual awareness is everyone's highest priority

From what origins would that development arise? Please help a fool...
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 12, 2018 - 09:55pm PT
From what origins would that development arise? Please help a fool...
-


Not necessarily a fool, rather someone who's first assumption says that physical causation is the holy grail and "explains" the whole shebang, all else being woo.

Thar she blows...
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Feb 12, 2018 - 10:01pm PT
Not really- that's another snap shot in my opinion. Perhaps one's self described (or claimed) genisis of awareness has no bearing on the actual amplitude. What's the penalty for being wrong here? Is my journey over at 51?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 13, 2018 - 09:26am PT
Not really- that's another snap shot in my opinion.


Then what ARE you saying, contractor? Lest one be specific, you leave people guessing about what you are trying to say. At least they are taking you seriously. Snarky comments about self-claimed genius of awareness feel like trolling to me, but I'll certainly sit corrected if you clarify your position.

If you want to see how awareness effects brain and body, get an outdoor thermometer for 15 bucks, tape the sensor to your finger and try and raise the temp in your finger - a standard biofeedback drill. Pay no attention to the exercise and just mind wander. Then pay attention (without trying to DO anything) and see what happens.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Feb 13, 2018 - 11:29am PT
Oh, not snarky at all- you read genius and I actually wrote Genesis- big difference in context from my end.

I typically don't make declarative or disparaging statements about someone's spirituality or lack thereof- unlike the OP.

I personally would assume that many people, like myself, that rely on physicalism are open to alternate dimensions of existence, however; we may not be inclined to seek it by nature. That's not to deny that the connection may not occur at some point in time.

I certainly don't join in on these discussions to disprove anyone's belief's.

Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Feb 13, 2018 - 11:42am PT
BTW- claimed Genesis would equally refer to me and my belief's.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 13, 2018 - 05:09pm PT
Sorry, Contractor. My old friend and mentor, Jim Bridwell, is on life support and dying (basically dead already) and IT'S ME who is feeling snarky. Didn't think it would work me so hard.

Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Feb 13, 2018 - 05:29pm PT
These are the times that leave me trusting in transcendence. Peace be with him and you.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 13, 2018 - 08:19pm PT
Atom this eve?

A single strontium atom with what level of consciousness?



https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--EFNrnAww--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/hyejinr2kjmfu74vfqrz.png

It can be read about here:

https://www.techly.com.au/2018/02/13/stunning-photo-single-atom-wins-prestigious-science-photography-contest/

Just as there are 50 some words for snow among Eskimos (how do they talk about that to a guy who lives in the desert?), how many words are there for atom among physicists?





Meanwhile back at the lab.

While reports of EEG correlates of psychiatric disorders date back five decades, clinical sensitivity of the EEG to psychiatric disorders has been greatly enhanced with the advent of quantitative methods of analysis (QEEG). Using a QEEG methodology known as neurometrics we have identified distinctive electrophysiological profiles associated with different psychiatric disorders. With this method quantitative features are extracted from 2 minutes of artifact- free eyes closed resting EEG data, log transformed to obtain Gaussianity, age-regressed, and Z-transformed relative to population norms. Using small subsets of neurometric features, multiple stepwise discriminant analyses were used to construct mathematical classifier functions, the values of which are different for members of different a priori defined diagnostic groups. Using this approach, we have demonstrated high discriminant accuracy in independent replications separating many populations of psychiatric patients from normal as well as from each other, including major affective disorder, schizophrenia, dementia, alcoholism, and learning disabilities, as well as high accuracy of discrimination between known subtypes of depression (unipolar vs bipolar). The use of classification accuracy curves (CACs) which allow one to assess the sensitivity and specificity achieved by the discriminant functions is discussed. In addition, using cluster analysis, neurometric subtypes can be identified in several clinically homogenous populations. Preliminary results suggest that baseline membership in some neurometric subtypes may be highly correlated with response to treatment

Caveat

That very same discrimination analysis is able to derive a discriminant function on the criterion classes Male and Female based upon driver's license numbers data.

Caveat 2

Preliminary results often remain just that

What in the heck is Mind, preliminarily.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 14, 2018 - 10:58pm PT
Reality is all about vibration and frequency, as pointed out by Nicola Tesla with implications and techniques long kept secret.

(Einstein was supported and promoted by the Rothschilds to obscure some of the core issues from the general scientific community.)


Light behaves as waves in 'empty' space, until bent by magnetic fields.

When the light waves are bent by magnetic fields, the interference between the bent light waves produces interference fringes between the conflicting wave patterns.

So that the nodes between interfering wave forms become what we understand to be particles of physical matter.

It seems what we perceive as the physical universe is constructed of frozen light ... analogous to a hologram.


Our minds can not directly perceive the physical universe, but depend upon our senses.

And our senses are not nearly good enough to build the internal visual world that we perceive as reality (i.e. The Matrix).

Our senses transfer electromagnetic signals along nerve bundles into our brain. These EM signals are transformed within the brain to guide the creation of our holographic world of thought that we relate to as reality.

Thus a complex pattern of light waves are conveyed electro-magnetically into our brains by our senses and translated into holographic realities within our minds. We relate to these holograms as if they are real ... which they are to us.


However there is no solid physical reality out there. There is light and magnetism and our perception of it as hologram patterns.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Feb 15, 2018 - 06:29am PT
Thanks Tom,

your posts remind me HOW GRATEFUL I AM! to have both a general education and a physics, electrical engineering, and neuroscience education; otherwise I couldn't keep up!

Mind your nodes and frequencies. Damn those Rothchilds too! :)


...

Dang it, Dingus, I went for the coffee and you beat me to the post!!!


lol
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Feb 15, 2018 - 06:47am PT
Yeah. It's only the basis of radio, eg, or light and vision, or hearing, or quantum mechanics. Or physical chemistry. Or... That's all.

But I suspect this link between Einstein and the Rothchilds has long ago been destroyed?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 15, 2018 - 08:31am PT
Secret frequencies, holograms, light waves, little green men ... you're still arguing over WHAT we perceive, are still one step away from perception itself, which does not necessarily hinge on our sense organs.

For example, get a pair of those noise canceling headphones that people use on construction sites, which make it so you hear nothing at all. Put those on. Lay down and pull a thin blanket over yourself. Put a dark cloth over your eyes. To a large extent, almost entirely, you have eliminated most all of your physical sense data, especially once you have relaxed for a bit and remain still. Now, settle into simply experiencing what is transpiring and being as alert as possible. At some point the duality between he who observes and just observing will melt away, and so does the distance, duality between you and it. So does the duality between awareness and what you are aware of. And so dies the illusion that "you only think you are perceiving" in whatever manner you are because thinking has already become background phenomenon. This is not "intuitive" exploration because you are not focused on some thing or phenomenon "out there" which you can be wrong about.

Then you stop and start working up rational models, not from bits and pieces, but rather from the whole mo fo.
WBraun

climber
Feb 15, 2018 - 08:37am PT
you're still arguing over WHAT we perceive, are still one step away from perception itself

They CAN"T do that.

They ARE soooo brainwashed with their boxed up limited selves in their tiny little limited sterile world.

If Pinker or Sam Harris says they will come running like monkeys and eat those bananas like they are god himself ......
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 15, 2018 - 08:43am PT
Or just use isolation tanks and do repeated 6-12 hour sessions in them to cut straight to the heart of the matter. However, what 'rational models' and general mo fo you then come away from the experience with is clearly quite subjective.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 15, 2018 - 09:58am PT
All vibrations and frequencies. I find it fascinating.

Me too, and I would elaborate on it, in private. The KGB, being more open minded than their
crankloon American counterparts, did lots of research into this ‘stuff’.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 15, 2018 - 10:27am PT
Or just use isolation tanks and do repeated 6-12 hour sessions in them to cut straight to the heart of the matter. However, what 'rational models' and general mo fo you then come away from the experience with is clearly quite subjective.



I warned about conflating. The two most common ones are conflating content with awareness, and subjective with objective.

For example, you have a subjective experience of sitting quietly and simply observing your experience without trying to define or describe or quantify it in any way. This is the exploration phase. It is the existential equal of "listening" to reality as opposed to yet defining it.

Later, when you start rationally interpreting your experience, you are building a cognitive and logical map to same. We can clearly see that the process of building said map, and the subjective territory that it seeks to explain, are not selfsame. That is, the map (interpretation) itself is an attempt to objectify subjectivity, and is not, itself, subjective.

In perceptual or mind terms, the former (exploration) is best carried out with a wide focus (note that in wide or panorama focus, you can't interpret). Then later, we narrow focus and our rational minds kick in.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 15, 2018 - 10:32am PT
Crikey, you really are an arrogant sob. There's no 'conflating' going on and you've whipped the poor content and map horses to bone powder. That and your commentary on 'proper' methods and what can and cannot be done now borders on just another mindlessly arrogant rant of [subjective] opinion.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Feb 15, 2018 - 12:08pm PT
OP-
It seems what we perceive as the physical universe is constructed of frozen light ... analogous to a hologram.
would this include fire?
This is not to cross examine- just wanting you to elaborate. Frozen light refers to the trapping of photons. Our perception is based on an electrochemical signal produced by the reflection of light.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 15, 2018 - 12:39pm PT
Healje, if I was presenting this information by way of equations, I wouldn't be an "arrogant SOB." What you and others take issue with is not the particulars, but rather the tone most take with science, when it is applied to the subjective adventures. Of course I'm doing it on purpose.


But lets look closely at your claim that there is "no conflating going on with the following sentence (yours):

"Or just use isolation tanks and do repeated 6-12 hour sessions in them to cut straight to the heart of the matter. However, what 'rational models' and general mo fo you then come away from the experience with is clearly quite subjective."

"Rational models" are build by way of a cognitive exercise in which we try and objectify a given phenomenon. Workable models in this regards aim at being objectively accurate.

For example, I have the experience of climbing Crack of Doom. Later, reflecting on the experience, I attempt to cook up some rational models in terms of describing particular features on the route the belays, the difficulty of the crux bits, and finally chart out a map, in this case, a topo map.

That is, I "come away from the experience" of climbing Crack of Doom, start building my "rational models" by way of objectification, resulting at last in a topo map loaded with quantifications (ratings, etc).

Now you are free to say said topo ITSELF (an external object full of quantifications) is "clearly quite subjective" in terms of the ratings ascribed to the topo, though we can't possibly say that either the paper the top is written on, nor yet the data on the paper itself, IS subjective. Subjective in this case only refers to methods used for quantification, and some of those are not subjective.

If for example, I arrive at the belay at the marked mid point on my 70 meter rope, I know the pitch is basically 35 meters long. What's more, my approximation of the grade might be based on a norm derived from 1,000s of other routes I have experienced. Though peer review we arrive at a rating that is not strictly subjective.

What is also conflated ("combining two or more ideas into one") in your rant is the business of inductive and deductive reasoning, which more accurately captures what I believe you are driving at.

Either way, if you want to make a point about this slippery slope, it has little chance of sticking unless it is very specific and logically coherent. Otherwise the key stuff gets conflated and its just one big gumbo. The slipshod way you have it, it is impossible to derive any objective data from subjective experience itself, which is partially true about WHAT we experience, but not at all true about perception itself. It's just that the methods of building our rational model are primarily inductive.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Feb 15, 2018 - 02:56pm PT
you're still arguing over WHAT we perceive, are still one step away from perception itself, which does not necessarily hinge on our sense organs.


Your noise-cancellation blanket-over scenario does not take into account that your perception is affected by your memories. If you had no sense organs from the moment of your birth, what would your perception be like? Would it be like the isolation tank?

It is a trick question.

You are yourself still working with bits and pieces, just like the rest of us. However, you could improve on how you put those bits and pieces together.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2018 - 03:20pm PT
Hey, folks, I really appreciate all of your contributions to this discussion!

I didn't start this thread in order to set myself up as a resident expert on these subjects. Rather to simply express my high level of interest. I have done quite a lot of study of a wide range of materials in attempts to improve my understanding of personal experiences. Your experiences may differ! LOL

One of the best things about my life has been the amazing people I have come to know and who have become friends and colleagues. From my perspective, many of my friends are much more intelligent than me. I have been following the 'What is mind?' thread with fascinated respect. So I was just hoping this thread could explore a bit further beyond the mechanics of the physiology of the brain/mind system, and that does seem to be happening here.

When I have been making a statement in this thread with some apparent degree of certainty, it represents my attempt to understand and paraphrase writings from scientists and philosophers with way more knowledge, research, and credentials than myself. Clearly this is challenging, for various obvious reasons.

There are two domains of knowledge that I have been avoiding bringing into this thread. One is material that I think may have merit, but hasn't been assimilated into my world view, sometimes labeled 'woo woo'. The second is material that I believe to be relevant, but is too controversial and distracting from the conversation I'm hoping to continue here...sometimes labeled 'conspiracy theories'. I am not trying to make these a restriction for you, but from my perspective these could derail this discussion.

I am also not trying to judge your world view or levels of awareness, just that I am interested. I am trying to lay out the map and modes of transportation and improve my understanding of such things

Once aspect that is very clear to me is that all I have managed to learn in a lifetime dedicated to my 'individually directed study program' is a small fraction of the wider domain that I have not yet been able to study or assimilate into my own domain of supposed understanding. So I hoped this thread might catch the attention of some of you to join a conversation that has been going on between myself and my shadow. So thank you very much for participating!
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2018 - 04:38pm PT
OP-
It seems what we perceive as the physical universe is constructed of frozen light ... analogous to a hologram.
would this include fire?

Yes.

To the extent that I think I understand such things.

The simple [no doubt over simplified view] is that the entire material universe consists of complex vibration patterns in the ether [substitute your preferred wording flavor]. So anything material, including fire or any other effect observable as part of the material universe, is included in this cosmological concept.

So the material universe with a loud allegorical clang, is contriving to keep me honest in my 'expanded perceptions' of all this. Looking out the window past my computer is my view into dense forest currently with a flock of chickadees and juncos flitting about and competing for my bird feeder and suet block.

And yesterday I stood on a bluff ten feet above a small clear pond, reflecting light from the sky, dropping rocks into it ... fascinating to watch the concentric rings spread out from the center, spreading to the rocky shore and reflecting back on themselves clear across the pond and once again back on itself, from all sides except where the blackberry thicket absorbs all the ripples on one side ... and water splashed up falling down and starting other rings on top of the main rings... on and on ... and then a gust of wind adds to the patterns ...

So my thinking [not exactly my own original thinking] is that what we perceive as the material universe is one layer of a multi-layer construct, sort of like layers of an onion.

when you light a proper camp fire, you scratch a match, use it to light a little tinder bundle, which lights some kindling, which lights some small firewood, and which heats up and eventually lights the larger logs of your camp fire.

This brings to mind how you fire off the space shuttle booster rockets. I went through an intensive course at ATK in Brigham City, Utah on how these huge booster rockets are constructed and activated. So it starts with a little squib inside a tiny match box with a scattering of what look just like the heads of stick matches. The bottom of this tiny match box has a grid of holes that are blocked off by a thin metal plate that is pulled out by the close-out crew as the last step on their checklist just before they race to the safety of a bunker away from the launch tower. Once the main engines are cooking nicely, the booster squibs are fired [heaven help the crew if one booster fires and the other one doesn't!!] ... the match heads light up and squirt a little fire down into a little rocket engine about the size of a small jam jar ... which fires up and squirts a jet of fire down into another rocket engine about the size of a trash can ... which shoots a big jet of fire igniting the 150 ft length of the main booster rockets and the mechanical hold downs release this whole nightmare contraption which will now hopefully be in orbit in about 9.5 minutes with a crew of our friends sitting on top of it...allowing those familiar with this whole ridiculous process to start breathing again...

An H-bomb ignition sequence is all too similar ... a computer chip activated squib(s) smaller than a pencil erase ignites some high explosive fireworks in a quart jar, compressing a fist sized lump of fissionable material (A-bomb), creating the environment for activation of a hall-of-mirrors of fusionable material (H-bomb)....not giving out any secrets...LOL...

So back to our oversimplified material universe ... a seed of (fractal geometry) thought form drops into a sea of (created) energy and sets off a process sort of like how a lake freezes up on a cold night ...

Except this seems to be again in a sequence of layers such as the levels of awareness referenced above. Another representation of this that I am aware of but haven't assimilated into my understanding, says there is the physical layer, the etheric layer, the astral layer, the mental layer, and then a causal layer. However it is represented, there do seem to be layers to all of this ..

Another representation might be the classical concept of ether, then a layer of electro-magnetic-gravitic vibrations, then the fourier transformation creating the 'holographic universe' in our minds.

...not trying to give anyone vertigo ...

Ok, ok ... i did say this was dramatically oversimplified ...

Oh ... and to confirm any of this requires enhanced levels of awareness ... and as others have pointed out so eloquently ... a mind transmitting thoughts is not listening ... a very aware mind is a very quiet mind ...
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 15, 2018 - 05:05pm PT
Oh ... and to confirm any of this requires enhanced levels of awareness ... and has others have pointed out so eloquently ... a mind transmitting thoughts is not listening ... a very aware mind is a very quiet mind ...

You mentioned Ingo Swann and what you said above reminds me of what he had to say about the signal to noise ratio. Subtle signal with lots of noise equals lots of noise.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2018 - 05:06pm PT
This is not to cross examine- just wanting you to elaborate. Frozen light refers to the trapping of photons. Our perception is based on an electrochemical signal produced by the reflection of light.

This can certainly use further elaboration ... and I need to leave for the local volunteer fire department training ...

So light propagates as a wave until observed, at which point it acts like a photon particle, which is transformed into holographic images that we perceive as material reality ... which oversimplification causes Ed to choke up his mouthful of coffee ...

So while Ed is sputtering, but, but, but ...

I'll get into even further trouble by pointing out that as an 'object' approaches the speed of light, it gets heavier and expands in space and its time goes slower ... Einstein said it, don't blame me

But nothing can go faster than light ... cough ... cough ...

So what can go as fast as light?? Well how about a photon??

Ok so a photon 'particle' (thought form??) goes the speed of light ... at which point this 'photon thought form' becomes infinitely massive ... and fills all space ... and time stops for it ...

So now it can 'stop' and reappear 'anywhere' and do this any 'time.'

Which quantum physics says it does all over the place at random places and times ...

Thus a single photon thought form creates the entire material universe.

LOL

(we are all one)
WBraun

climber
Feb 15, 2018 - 05:15pm PT
The mind can travel faster than the speed of light .....
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2018 - 05:17pm PT
yes, and so can the connection between entangled photon particles ...

(ooops .... same thing ...)
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Feb 15, 2018 - 06:59pm PT
Subtle signal with lots of noise equals lots of noise.


Not always.


http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Stochastic_resonance
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 15, 2018 - 07:05pm PT


Your noise-cancellation blanket-over scenario does not take into account that your perception is affected by your memories.

Perceptive comment, MH2.





"I am a crow. I am teaching you how to become a crow.

When you learn that, you will stay awake, and you will move freely.

Otherwise you will always be glued to the ground, wherever you fall."
Queue

climber
Feb 15, 2018 - 07:07pm PT
If you want to make a point about this slippery slope, it has little chance of sticking unless it is very specific and logically coherent.

Trump’s election, and the informational environment that led to it, seems to be something of a counterpoint. Specific and logically coherent seems to have little to do with the stuff people are doing in their brains, or our interpretations of the stuff people are doing in their brains.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 15, 2018 - 08:21pm PT
Not always.

Yes, but not until someone was actually looking for it in 1982.
nah000

climber
now/here
Feb 15, 2018 - 09:21pm PT
i've been following this thread with interest... so thanks to both TomCochrane and all those who have made meaningful contributions. to be specific, gotta give a shout out to DMT for his memorable exposition on being barefoot... sometimes shifts in consciousness are both simple and profound... [at the same time that sometimes they are perception shattering and the result of psychologic/spiritu-al universes colliding...]



i've hesitated to contribute, especially at first, in large part due to the title of this thread.

while it may seem a quibble, for myself, a title more along the lines of Consciousness and Areas of Awareness would have been more apt.

the problem i have is that the word Levels smacks of a hierarchy and an underpinning, all-encompassing theory of everything that might explain said Levels. i get this may not have been the intent, and so i may, to a degree, be reading things into the title. still, that is what it implies to me.

this is problematic, as for me, if we are to speak of consciousness and awareness, my experience has only resulted in the continuing/regular shattering of any all encompassing theory of everything that i have come across.

in short, i was brought up in a hardline fundamentalist religion, that tried to explain everything we understand and experience [with sometimes masterful twists of logic] via their literal reading of the bible. i then spent time pursuing, not mostly as escape, but rather primarily in pursuit of understanding, experience through psychedelics, through physical deprivation, through meditation, through the study of a few of the viruses that are the languages that we employ and through etc... and so i've also spent time making a living with my hands, to a degree within hard sciences, as well as within the arts.

the point is not to suggest that i am the one who is all knowing... all i do know at this point is that i ultimately don't know. the point is that in every direction i pursued, i always came to a point where the all encompassing theory of everything that each area might have implied or that i assumed was there [when i started] disintegrated either as i continued to pursue it or continued to pursue its complements/competitors...



and so if i am certain of anything it is something that i am not always good at implementing [and with apologies to k.lamar]:

be humble.

to think any one of us, have this whole deal well enough figured out to ignore/dismiss the pursuits of those who have put years and decades towards taking paths and trajectories both askew and perpendicular to the collective mass of wo/men's current outward and professed reliance on material science is as arrogantly ridiculous as the church dismissing the trajectories that were askew and perpendicular to the collective's outward and professed reliance on holy books hundreds of years ago.

because in the end, from my perspective/experience we only touch tails, or ears, or trunks, and those who profess to know the whole elephant are in general charlatans/naive [even at the same time i try to stay aware that there are many, many who have experienced much, much more of both parts of and the whole of the elephant than i have].



when i was a kid, i went through a couple years of obsessively collecting insects.

butterfly net, alcohol killing solutions, cork mounting mats, pins with scientific names on bits of triangular paper: the whole kit and caboodle.

when i started, i rarely saw bugs.

but, after months and months, the world was covered with them.

i'd look at a lawn and see it to be teeming with life... at a certain point, most of which i'd already collected, but still: they were there...

and today?

i only see the dragonflies and the butterflies directly in front of my face.



and so i look forward to the continued opportunity to hear the experiences of those who have pursued experiences/awarenesses that i may not even believe to exist.

even if your words don't automatically result in anything more than curiosity.

thanks again and peace.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2018 - 12:38am PT
So just this evening presented an intensive practical exercise in awareness.

I was at the fire hall for a training, when the page went out for our county SAR team to go find an 84 yo man who hadn't returned from his afternoon walk in the woods.

So we spent 4-5 hours at night searching through rugged terrain, stream beds, woods and bushwhacking, and trying to sense his presence. I wasn't the one to find him, we can thank a sense dog for that; but did find tracks to establish direction of travel and the general area where he was found. I can't personally claim any credit other than as a team member. But my feeling is that his presence could be felt in the area where he was found soon after we passed nearby.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2018 - 01:03am PT
the problem i have is that the word Levels smacks of a hierarchy and an underpinning, all-encompassing theory of everything that might explain said Levels. i get this may not have been the intent, and so i may, to a degree, be reading things into the title. still, that is what it implies to me.

I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments.


And would suggest a slightly different perspective, that our sensitivity to hierarchy is the chronic abuse of power in a control structure designed to manage by enforcement or enslavement rather than by mutual agreement.

My conviction is that people do good work, not because they are basically lazy and are forced to work by a fear based management structure ... but people do good work because their natural motivations to do good works overpowers their distaste for fear based management structures.

So as to how this relates to levels of awareness ...

I don't think the concepts I discuss offer anything like a complete understanding. However these concepts perhaps offer a framework which may be used to further our understanding of how things work.

And there is extensive evidence of manipulating public awareness to the benefits of centralized social power structures. Awareness of this is probably basic to becoming free of such mind control techniques as developed and applied by Madison Avenue advertising firms ...

As mentioned above, some `layers' of awareness seem specialized for performing particular tasks, such as memory or highly strenuous tasks or fine motor control or healing...
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Feb 16, 2018 - 02:42am PT
i AND THE OTHER I ALWAYS TRY TO READ & DIGEST WHAT EVER nahOOO
SHARES
This ONE AND (the one before) ITS LAST is,
at 1st,
sort of an approach?
it has, as is clear, left me a bit off base.
I have and still do surf in time and space
Herr Braun may or may be so ground'd that it's a moot point
To doubt him, though, seems perilous-his schtick here terse and un-sharing
Ive flown thru the sun too so his banter is reviled & not to be adhered to
where is the searchers sustenance most nourishing, in the womb of death were rebirth is not a given. . .
not smokin; anything so? can ya tell
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 16, 2018 - 08:13am PT
I'm not so woo-curious that I'm going to join a church or a meditation center or buy a pair of yoga pants though.

I wonder if there are actually any here that fit that bill. I know they are out there, I have met a few, but I also know that that is a fear that some have that prevent them from exploring their own curiosities. There are Joiners and Explorers too. I see them as different species.

Unreasoned fear is a master intellectual fraud practiced upon the evolving mortal soul.

Nick Danger

Ice climber
Arvada, CO
Feb 16, 2018 - 08:49am PT
I am enjoying these many thoughtful posts, though I must confess that I have not made time to read them all. A thank you to all who have posted up here.

nah000's post above totally rocks. "be humble" might be the single most useful thing I have read here.

Although I am a scientist by both vocation and by avocation, I think the science vs religion divide is totally arbitrary. The scientific method is a very useful technique for inquiring into the nature of certain things, whereas prayer, meditation, and contemplation are valid methods of inquiry into the nature of certain things. I value both. The older I get, the less attached I become to any particular world view; All Existence seems to be a pretty cool gig.

As a scientist by trade and inclination, I want to offer a thought experiment that perhaps alludes to consciousness creating the Creation. Various repeatable experiments have been conducted for observing light (electromagnetic radiation in the "visible" frequencies). Those experiments designed to observe light as a wave-form end up perceiving light as a wave-form, and those designed to observe light as a particle detect photons. The particle/wave duality extends to more traditional particles as well, although the low mass particles like the electron are easier to observe in this particle/wave form duality than more massive particles. Additionally, modern atomic models show the electron existing as a probability function within specific volumes associated with energy levels surrounding the atomic nucleus. Ergo, the actual "physical universe" manifests itself as the perceiver (the designer of the experiment) has chosen to see it. How is this not consciousness creating the Creation?

Peace, and thanks to all here.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Feb 16, 2018 - 07:21pm PT
and so if i am certain of anything it is something that i am not always good at implementing [and with apologies to k.lamar]:

be humble.



Thank you for that.

For the good advice and also for the humor. It looks as though someone who advises humility does so by arrogantly commanding us to be humble.

I am pretty sure that is not true but it is fun to see it that way.

I would not claim to be certain of anything, though I am willing to bet that no one is going to find a largest prime number.

For enduring wisdom I recommend what Donnie the South African told us in an eatery in Capetown. Somehow we had a helium balloon. We were taking turns inhaling from it and talking like Donald Duck on the exhale. Donnie got the last turn. He sucked in the last of the helium. Then in a high squeaky voice; "It was fun while it lasted, but it's over now."
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2018 - 07:38pm PT
You mentioned Ingo Swann and what you said above reminds me of what he had to say about the signal to noise ratio. Subtle signal with lots of noise equals lots of noise.

Just to note that one of our better human abilities, that can be practiced and refined, is the ability to pick out patterns (signal) from noise.

As in the example I gave above about watching a pond ... every causitive effect sends out concentric rings of influence which can be detected from within a broad spectrum of noise.

That's one of the key methods of detecting deep submarines out in the ocean ... by detecting anomalies in surface wave patterns ...

when i started, i rarely saw bugs.

but, after months and months, the world was covered with them.

This is very relevant as focused attention ... deer hunters see deer everywhere ... golfers see golf balls everywhere ... NASA dudes instantly recognize launch vehicle contrails distinct from the contrails of jets ... climbers look for lines of ascent on every rock face ...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2018 - 08:52pm PT
If you had no sense organs from the moment of your birth, what would your perception be like? Would it be like the isolation tank?

This is pretty much what the Kogi/Tairona people do in the region of the Sierra Nevada de Santa Marta in Columbia. Those chosen for the priesthood are born in a totally dark cave and are raised in the dark until they are teenagers. Their only contact with the outside world is daily lessons from elder priests. So when they are finally taken out into the light as teenagers, they see the world literally in a different light.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 16, 2018 - 09:19pm PT
http://www.sustainable.soltechdesigns.com/training-of-kogi-preisthood.html
WBraun

climber
Feb 16, 2018 - 10:02pm PT
They say "Rest in Peace" to those whom have deceased.

How in the fuk does a dead person rest?

Only live person can rest.

St00pid gross materialists ........
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Feb 17, 2018 - 12:47am PT
You mad bro?
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 17, 2018 - 03:44pm PT
Sorry hB, but the phrase was once "rust in peace" and had to be altered when Neil Young's attorney filed a challenge. Once the case was dismissed, not necessarily stoopid, but rather LAAZY people who don't attend to the news just never got back on track.


Long as I'm here, we all (or at least many of us) know that rust never sleeps, but do termites?


TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2018 - 09:47pm PT
The race was not given to the quick or the swift, but to the one who could endure to the end. Then we found out there was no end.

The unwary soul, who fails to grapple with the Mocking Demon of Illusion, will return to the earth as the slave of Illusion. To become a true master of fate, you must first become a true "Knower of Self".
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 18, 2018 - 11:42pm PT
What is happening now is most people are operating with only limited senses, rather than the five we are supposed to have. They can't smell things because there is such a barrage of contaminants overwhelming their sense of smell. They can't taste much with food so processed and contaminated. They need strong spices to even enjoy their food, not to mention whether they are getting adequate nutrients. They live in an overwhelm of sound and would rather talk than listen and need the sounds of constant radio and TV to block disturbing thoughts from their minds. They touch, but do not feel the energy of what they are touching. They look, but do not see true reality, just illusion. It is easy for our perceptions to be manipulated by those who understand how the senses work. And without all five senses working well, we can not utilize our 'sixth sense'. Most have calcified Pineal Glands
due to fluoride intake, meat, processed starches and artificial sugars.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Feb 22, 2018 - 05:32pm PT
They look, but do not see true reality, just illusion. It is easy for our perceptions to be manipulated by those who understand how the senses work



It is possible, but not likely, that our perceptions are manipulated by those who understand how the 11 dimensions of sub-particle matter work.

I just did a search for "two protons alpha centauri."

A result that could interest Tom:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1708.03556.pdf



But what I was looking for:

https://www.fictionunbound.com/blog/2016/4/30/three-body-problem
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Feb 22, 2018 - 06:24pm PT
Jim,

I met Randy Atkinson a couple days ago. It was totally unexpected. We are both working on learning things and he is about four years ahead of me and it helped me a lot to talk to him.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Feb 22, 2018 - 07:20pm PT
He is enjoying many good times.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2018 - 09:45am PT
your mind is your most valuable tool

thinking you are your mind is your primary distraction

while you relinquish control, your mind ties up your energy and runs amok

so your mind is being kept busy with distractions

keeping your mind distracted is the primary method used by the controllers
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Mar 7, 2018 - 10:03am PT
keeping your mind distracted is the primary method used by the controllers

Do you mean controllers as actual people or something else? I tend to think that the paradigm is institutionalized and humans as controllers are no longer necessary. Humans are just too messy and unpredictable.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2018 - 11:38am PT
actual people and something else

look at the common realities created by how many people watch TV

and how many people show up to watch a sports game or concert

super markets and shopping malls

hours spent commuting on highways

rock climbers are at least a little bit outside the main stream

who do you think is engineering all this?

it's called mental entrainment
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2018 - 12:51pm PT
we are all one

so of course we can share experiences and thoughts and feelings

it is only the overactive mind creating the illusion of separateness

this is a basic mental misunderstanding perpetuating much of this discussion

i am surprised that people who have shared a rope on climbs would think otherwise

drugs and other experiential contrivances can bust down mental barriers and give you a look at this for a while before the mind reacts to raise even more powerful barriers
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Mar 7, 2018 - 01:31pm PT
who do you think is engineering all this?

who or what, or who and what.

egregores from a forgotten rebellion.

I really don't know but I do smell something rotten.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 7, 2018 - 01:40pm PT

We have to keep at least two thoughts in mind at the same time:

"We are all the same"

and

"Follow the money"

If people with all the money say we are all the same, ask them for the money...

... and if they don't respond appropriately, well...

... I wouldn't be very convinced...

But that's America ain't it? ... full of business tricksters...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2018 - 01:56pm PT
who do you think is engineering all this?

That is a worthwhile question to keep asking. I have been asking it for fifty years. I know some of the answers and have some ideas about more of the answers. But that is sort-of off topic for this thread. I am not prepared to tackle another thread on that topic.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2018 - 02:06pm PT
We have to keep at least two thoughts in mind at the same time:

"We are all the same"

and

"Follow the money"

If people with all the money say we are all the same, ask them for the money...

... and if they don't respond appropriately, well...

... I wouldn't be very convinced...

But that's America ain't it? ... full of business tricksters...

I didn't say we are all the same ... that is certainly a falsity at the level of the manifesting material universe.

I did say we are all one ... and that is at the level of universal consciousness. Granted that fact certainly has major implications for the manifesting material universe.

And follow the money is certainly good advice for researching the social control structure where 'Babylonian money magik' with the 'fractional reserve system' is the primary control structure for this society ... i.e. money created from nothing loaned at interest with no mechanism for creating more money to pay off the interest so as to perpetually enslave debtors ...

But that is off topic for this thread.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Mar 7, 2018 - 03:37pm PT
But that is sort-of off topic for this thread

Fair enough but you brought it up. This is your thread and you bring up a lot of interesting topics and I get that you want to stay on track but do you really want to be hall monitor and steer the "conversation" to your own narrow direction. Is it still a conversation or something else?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2018 - 03:45pm PT
Yes. It's appropriate to call this our campfire. A great thing about this media is that anyone can take the conversation in any direction they want and others can follow that line of discussion or not as they wish. I have been following the 'What is Mind' thread with great interest. But most of my attempts to direct the discussion towards universal consciousness and levels of awareness didn't travel very far. So I started this thread, really as an offshoot of that discussion. I am still just as interested in the mind thread. And there are or can be other threads addressing some of the tangential issues briefly discussed here.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Mar 7, 2018 - 04:35pm PT
Cool. I admire your effort. I will check in now and then to see how it goes.

I like and have used that campfire analogy myself but I no longer look at this forum that way for many reasons. I realized long ago that my interests, opinions and perspective are unimportant to anyone but me. Lately I just want to shut up and dance. Slow dance.
nah000

climber
now/here
Mar 7, 2018 - 07:22pm PT
MH2: meant to post this for you... assuming you hadn’t seen it: it’s more evidence that, at least to my eyes over the years, you’re a wise one around here... because yes, it is necessarily the humblest who stand up and say be humble... ;)

[Click to View YouTube Video]
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