Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
John M
climber
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2018 - 10:56am PT
|
No, apparently some do not. Some are saying the GOP shutdown the government and that is simply untrue.
I disagree with your interpretation of things. As Reilly pointed out, it takes two to tango. What reason did the Dems not vote for the temporary spending bill? At this point I have only heard the rights version.
If the right said.. Here is the temporary spending bill. It contains a law that makes it illegal to be a democrat, would that then make it the democrats fault if they didn't vote for it?
|
|
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2018 - 10:58am PT
|
Is the NP shutdown preventing Braun from posting , i hope ? rj
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2018 - 11:08am PT
|
No Dingus, you come on. Why did the Dems not vote for the temporary spending bill? If they have a lousy reason, then yes it is their responsibility. But if they have a good reason, then shouldn't some of the blame for the shutdown go towards the repubs? Or do you refuse to see that point?
|
|
AlpineDualism
Trad climber
san diego, ca
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2018 - 11:21am PT
|
nothing happens in a vacuum. all things have a series of causes. yes the democrats caused the shutdown, but there were several motivating factors behind this stance. you shouldn't frame the situation as if the democrats position happened at random, it was the sum result of a multitude of external factors from all sides of the political spectrum.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2018 - 12:37pm PT
|
“So...the Dems should have let the Dreamers be damned,”
I think it's been pretty clear all along that the Reps were okay with legislation fixing the DACA situation in exchange for ending chain migration, the visa lottery and a border wall. That trade was unacceptable to the Democrats, who are making it clear that they prefer the status quo. They aren't stupid for taking this position, it's politically expedient in the long view.
Reagan made a deal with a Democrat Congress where he agreed to a total amnesty bill in exchange for a commitment by Congress to seal the border. The Democrats broke that agreement. So this time around the Reps are insisting that the whole deal is in one bill. No one wants to screw the Dreamers. The fact is that other than people who are arrested for serious crimes, no illegals are going to be rounded up and deported. Trump doesn't have the political capital to make it happen, even if he wanted to.
The Republicans will do their best to hold a DACA deal hostage until they get their way on the other issues. But since a Federal Judge in CA just ruled that Trump cannot impose a deadline for closing the DACA program, I expect that this issue will be tabled for the time being and Congress will fund the government ASAP. Perhaps the next battle regarding Trump's authority in this matter will be fought in the Supreme Court.
As a footnote (from the armchair) I'd guess that if a deal is ever reached the Reps will trade off the wall, or most of it, in exchange for stopping chain migration, the visa lottery, and tightening the border in other ways. Trump can let himself off the hook by blaming Congress and "reluctantly" sign the bill.
|
|
StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2018 - 12:47pm PT
|
The government is still shut down because tRump is a coward and a liar. He wants all the credit and none of the accountability. He always needs someone else to blame.
|
|
Norton
climber
The Wastelands
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2018 - 01:45pm PT
|
good thing the US President is so against a government shutdown
glad Donald got what he wanted
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2018 - 02:38pm PT
|
That is unsound logic
Analyzing our gubmint using logic is a fool's errand.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2018 - 03:06pm PT
|
I know that. Remember, I'm the one that runs the reading comp class here.;-)
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2018 - 03:10pm PT
|
nothing wrong with my logic. We were arguing different things.
I simply pointed out the Democrat Senate filibuster is the reason the government shut down.
The problem is, and you should know this, its not that simple. Certainly people will try to make it that simple and I agree with your contention that the Dems should stand up and say they voted against the temporary spending bill. And then say why. Thats better then first trying to blame the repubs. Because you are correct, this bill did not pass because they filibustered. So I agree with you to that point.
but..
there is a reason that they filibustered. That was mine and Terri's and Reilly's point.
Edit: And as Alpinerealism pointed out.. Nothing happens in a vacuum.
|
|
originalpmac
Mountain climber
Timbers of Fennario
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2018 - 03:40pm PT
|
^^^^ This man blows goats. I have proof.
|
|
Norton
climber
The Wastelands
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2018 - 03:59pm PT
|
|
|
Norton
climber
The Wastelands
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2018 - 04:03pm PT
|
Jody stated:
When the Democrats were in the WH, they refused to release the reserves that each department had so the shutdown would be disruptive
the last shutdown was in 2013 when your Republicans controlled the House and thereby all government spending, your above statement makes no sense at all, prove it
prove it Jody, show your credible sources, prove you are not lying
also Jody, for the now 5th time request prove your statement that
"the Dems support and people and countries that support Sharia Law"
prove it, Jody
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_government_shutdown_of_2013
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2018 - 07:42pm PT
|
I agree with your contention that the Dems should stand up and say they voted against the temporary spending bill. And then say why. Thats better then first trying to blame the repubs. Because you are correct, this bill did not pass because they filibustered.
The only problem with this "evidence" is the video posted above, where Lindsay Graham tells us, on tape, that he voted "No". They couldn't even get their boys to vote for it.
|
|
Degaine
climber
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2018 - 03:49am PT
|
@Dingus, thanks for the detailed posts. I had not personally looked at the situation from your point of view: the trigger event.
@Jody, thanks for taking the time to reply.
While not a personal fan of the current Republican way of doing business, my understanding is that Republicans and Democrats in both houses of Congress came to an agreement that Trump openly stated he was willing to sign (or he at least stated that he would sign any agreement the two parties in the two houses of Congress came to).
Also, my understanding of the situation is that Trump reneged on the bipartisan deal, causing the need for a stopgap bill and a close-call procedural vote for debate.
If I counted correctly, the procedural vote count is as follows: 5 Republican senators voted no, 1 abstained (McCain), 1 independent voted no, and 5 Democrats voted yes, that's 12 votes from a mix of three parties.
While I personally am in favor of the Democrats in the Senate taking a stand, in this particular case, if we are going to play the "my team / your team" blame game, I fail to see how the Democrats are "100% at fault". The Republicans had enough Democrats to vote "yes" but failed in convincing enough members of their own party to do so.
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 22, 2018 - 12:00pm PT
|
I don't "blame" anyone for the shutdown. I would assume(since I haven't personally researched on the topic) that what was written a few posts back, was that it was due to a series of events, with both sides involved. I just took objection, DMT, to your simplified "Dem's fault." It triggered reminders of the frustrations we faced over GOP refusals to work w/Dems just because, at least that is what is seemed, that "black man in the White House."
I agree that if a shutdown occurs, as Ballo said, he'd rather have that than a totalitarian gov. telling us "here's how it is going to be."
|
|
Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2018 - 06:08pm PT
|
Found this in an email from a river runners organization (they were going to let private parties launch during the shutdown)
According to Ranger Vandzura, the National Park Service cannot say they
are open. "You can" he said, "but we can't." Vandzura noted essential
services such as the operation of the Park's helicopter and the Grand
Canyon Clinic will remain fully operational. Unless donations or
volunteers come forward, restrooms and visitor centers will be closed.
Seems like the LE in the Grand Canyon were not going to enforce a closure.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2018 - 06:45pm PT
|
And the take-home message from the last three days is...
|
|
Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2018 - 10:26pm PT
|
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Mitch McConnell shut the government down, not Democrats. And it is Republicans that have been shamelessly politicizing the effect on the troops.
|
|
GZ
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2018 - 09:17pm PT
|
In November 91' my partner and I hit Chickenhead on our first day, and the shut down was ordered sometime that day.
By nightfall it was a mass exodus of cars, the lights streaming as far as the eye could see in both directions.
We had no idea what was going on, but the next 2 days on the Nose were HEAVENLY!
No cars, no dragon, nothing. No campfire smoke, just clear air and mostly silence from down below.
When we got back to our cars, the shutdown was over, but there was hardly anybody in the valley.
BEST. SHUTDOWN. EVER.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!