Balancing Public Land Use

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Messages 21 - 40 of total 52 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Longnut

Boulder climber
West side
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2018 - 07:37am PT
Credit: Longnut

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRIMUS1&f=A


More dependence on foreign oil = more "war for oil"




WyoRockMan

climber
Grizzlyville, WY
Jan 4, 2018 - 05:56pm PT
Should the US strive to be more self-sufficient regarding the resources we need before we close huge tracts of land to mining?


Should other countries rape their wildlands so we don't have to?

No. Yes.


Think locally, act globally. That's the phrase, correct?


Telling other climbers I work in mining often elicits the same emotion as telling them I keyed their Subaru.
xCon

Social climber
909
Jan 4, 2018 - 05:58pm PT
that reminds me I ran into a couple of vacationing nuclear power station workers years back...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 4, 2018 - 06:13pm PT
healyje, you seriously oppose investigating the technology and approaches used to underwater mining? In favor of destroying public lands to do so?

you won't even look?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 4, 2018 - 06:36pm PT
"In 2016, the United States imported approximately 10.1 million barrels per day (MMb/d) of petroleum from about 70 countries. Petroleum includes crude oil, natural gas plant liquids, liquefied refinery gases, refined petroleum products such as gasoline and diesel fuel, and biofuels including ethanol and biodiesel. About 78% of gross petroleum imports were crude oil.


I predict that burning fossil fuels will be seen as one of the most insane things in our society. They hold such value as chemical substrates.

Use of renewables and thorium reactors for power generation, that's the way to go. The top 5 countries with reserves are: Australia, USA, Turkey, India, Brazil. I believe we have good working relationships with the other 4.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Jan 4, 2018 - 06:57pm PT
Telling other climbers I work in mining often elicits the same emotion as telling them I keyed their Subaru.

Lol.

Every time I get a bit huffy about mining impact a real miner such as yourself reminds me of, well, mining.

Cheers
DMT
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 12, 2018 - 12:06pm PT
healyje, you seriously oppose investigating the technology and approaches used to underwater mining? In favor of destroying public lands to do so?

Do you actually understand what the "technology and approaches" to seabed mining are? And, to answer your question, yes, absolutely given how many cell phones and electronics full of precious metals are buried in landfills every year. Mine the waste stream first.
Ballo

Trad climber
Jan 12, 2018 - 12:22pm PT
I'm pretty sure if you find a way to mine deep sea minerals and sell them for a profit, no government will object.

BTW rare earth minerals is why the Korean war started (don't believe the "domino theory" lies), and likely why the armistice is now on thin ice. The US considered access to rare earth minerals a national security issue due to them being necessary for gyroscopes on missiles (which used rare earth elements like cobolt for the magnets). China has also had a long-standing policy of banning exports of rare minerals for the same reasons. Recently the largest deposit of these minerals was discovered in North Korea, and the US doesn't want Kim to have that kind of leverage.

I'd rather we got out of the Empire business for whatever that's worth.
couchmaster

climber
Jan 12, 2018 - 12:34pm PT

Our insatiable need to dominate other countries militarily and economically leads to first having to ask these kinds of questions and then next, being forced into saying "It's critical that we secure these" various things. (we are being set up for what's next: "should we bomb the crap out of North Korea") The cost to do such things is astronomical.

I'd like to think that we do it based on a focused best course strategy developed by consensus of some of the sharpest minds in the country but fear that is far from the truth. The opposite is most likely what occurred and inertia has gotten us to this point.

If we were to back off cranking hard on the rest of the world, bring most of our overseas troops home and then take a deep breath and worry about our own knitting, the peace dividend would be huge. Sure, some costs would go up, but why the f*#k do we always have to be the worlds policeman?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 12, 2018 - 12:49pm PT
I'm pretty sure if you find a way to mine deep sea minerals and sell them for a profit, no government will object.

Absolutely, and that's the problem. I mean, what could possibly be or go wrong with vacuuming the seabed...?

Don Paul

Mountain climber
Denver CO
Jan 12, 2018 - 12:54pm PT
All we have in Colorado is strip mining of low grade ore, and mountains of tailings / leech piles left over that never get cleaned up. They barely break even or pay taxes, and should all be shut down and remediated asap.
Ballo

Trad climber
Jan 12, 2018 - 04:01pm PT
couchmaster, I agree with everything you posted, but once a republic becomes an empire something very odd happens to its citizens: they become imperialistic. They think that some cosmic power has ordained them with this power and they have the divine right to rule over others and force foreigners to their way of life. It's a story as old as the Akkadian empire.

Unfortunately no empire in history, so far as I know, has ever walked away from the path of self-destruction. In a way, we're following the same course as the Spanish empire. Spain were once the powerhouse of Europe and used their fabulous wealth to create the Armadas. They then conquered half the planet and imported tons of cheap gold which ruined their economy. Instead of trading goods for goods, they traded gold for goods and their industry was driven out. At the end they defaulted four times in a row and became the poor men of Western Europe to this day.
Ballo

Trad climber
Jan 12, 2018 - 04:11pm PT
Don Paul, mining companies ought to pay for the damage they do, but what is the best method? Liability, or some kind of statutory requirement to create a post cleanup fund?

The problem with the former is it's too difficult to duck liability by moving assets out of the company and allowing it to go belly-up a la Solyndra. While more difficult to do with a proprietorship it's trivial when incorporated. We also have statutory limits on liability such as the nuclear industry has a $3B cap on nuclear accident liability (which is a huge scandal IMO).

The problem with the latter is you might no longer have a market approach to finding lower cost solutions to deal with the cleanup. Instead you have a regulatory system which may impose costs regardless of such considerations. Also, regulatory bureaus are easily politicized and captured by industry and often used to prevent competitors from entering the market. Also, when regulators take responsibility for assuring the environment w sometimes end up with disasters like the Animas River or Superfund sites.

The current system is definitely wide-open for abuse.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Jan 13, 2018 - 01:00am PT
The problem with the latter is you might no longer have a market approach to finding lower cost solutions to deal with the cleanup. Instead you have a regulatory system which may impose costs regardless of such considerations. Also, regulatory bureaus are easily politicized and captured by industry and often used to prevent competitors from entering the market. Also, when regulators take responsibility for assuring the environment w sometimes end up with disasters like the Animas River or Superfund sites.
What are these mysterious superfund disasters you speak of and how are they the fault of the 'regulators' rather than the corporations that caused them. The Animas has been under assault by mining interests for over a century and the recent disaster was the fault of industry, not government (who was charged with cleaning up the mining industry's years of unmitigated damage).

Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 13, 2018 - 06:44am PT
"All we have in Colorado is strip mining of low grade ore, and mountains of tailings / leech piles left over that never get cleaned up. They barely break even or pay taxes, and should all be shut down and remediated asap. "

I work in Colorado mining and not one bit of this statement is true at all.

1) Colorado, like all mining states, requires bonding for closure, and mines do closure studies and include cost of closure in their mine plans, so the tailings you see will be reclaimed and planted at end of life.

2) Not all Colorado mines are surface "strip" mines (a strip mine is a coal mine). About half are underground.

3) We pay a sh#t ton in taxes. Last year my operation paid over 20% of top line revenue in tax, not including income taxes.

4) Mines profit is dependent on commodity prices, so income on a given year is highly variable. Put it this way, though - we don't just do it for fun...

To add, we are highly conscious of our environmental and social impact. We are always working to minimize discharges. Our tailings are closed loop so no water leaves our mill circuit. Historic (pre-NEPA) mining had a impact and we are always working on improving that area.

We live downstream of our operation - do you think we want to impact ourselves and our friends?
Ballo

Trad climber
Jan 13, 2018 - 02:39pm PT
the recent disaster was the fault of industry, not government (who was charged with cleaning up the mining industry's years of unmitigated damage).

So the EPA was in charge, but the disaster wasn't their fault. Huh. Funny how everyone, and I mean everyone, reported that the spill was due to a mistake by the EPA.

You know, funny thing about the EPA: they claim it's illegal for them to pay for the damages they cause because of some "Sovereign" bullsh#t. Funny how entities which are given cover from liability tend to make mistakes!

How about this: no entity, whether it be private or public, who can potentially harm another, should be shielded from full liability. Can we at least agree on that?
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Jan 14, 2018 - 01:24pm PT
I would agree on that. But I would also argue that a non profit entity working to clean up the mess left behind by for profit industry should not be financially liable when foreseeable and predictable (on the aggregate) mistakes occur unless criminal negligence is involved.
Ballo

Trad climber
Jan 14, 2018 - 01:30pm PT
criminal negligence

I wouldn't hold my breath for that being prosecuted if a federal agency committed it
xCon

Social climber
909
Jan 14, 2018 - 01:35pm PT
they couldnt care less about crime,

their only goal is to bankrupt an agency which acts contrary to their wishes, prevent the agency from even have the ability to try and clean up any of the thousands of toxic waste sites industry has abandoned
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Jan 14, 2018 - 02:47pm PT
I wouldn't hold my breath for that being prosecuted if a federal agency committed it
it would obviously depend on the situation, but it happens all the time. With just negligence I feel the money should come from an industry contributed fund but with criminal negligence it should come from the agency.
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