Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 92 of total 92 in this topic |
AP
Trad climber
Calgary
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2017 - 01:23pm PT
|
Your biggest concern is distance to water tie in.
Trucking in water is not possible for new developments.
|
|
StefanS
Trad climber
Leavenworth WA
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2017 - 01:33pm PT
|
Hey Happie
If the lot sizes and zoning are equal, the difference is probably in site development or location to existing utilities. A drain field or well could easily cost as much the difference in price.
|
|
Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2017 - 02:02pm PT
|
The valuation on tax rolls is based on the last sale plus one percent per year increase in value allowed under prop 13. Has no real relationship to actual value as property is not reassessed unless sold.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2017 - 02:05pm PT
|
Buying JT's biggest dump with a roof and a working toilet is probably going to be a better short and long term investment than messing with bare sand in the desert.
Developing a piece of land to any extent beyond parking a rusty camper on it is for realz and can be expensive, requiring a lot of hard cash in your pocket to move things along.
If it were otherwise, everyone would be doing it. You're entering a higher stakes game. Thinking it's actually a less expensive and lower risk game because of the entry cost of the dirt is an illusion. Call the person selling the land and ask them why they bought and what actually happened leading them to sell. Call a few and put it all together yourself, the incentive to lie is high.
|
|
looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2017 - 02:20pm PT
|
Jon Beck and JPL are exactly right.
Also, it is all about location. The further you get north of 29 Palms Hwy, the sketchier your neighbors.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2017 - 02:31pm PT
|
Yup, buy a dump fixer upper. Drywall and paint are cheap. Putting in utilities is not.
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2017 - 02:55pm PT
|
Thank you all for your input. Already learning from you!
I have an idea how prohibitive building is. Even the building permit alone is beyond my ability. Or desire, at least for several years. Even to have a house with a roof and a Certificate of Occupancy is not what I am wanting to do.
For now - I just want land, and a prayer for neighbors who won't go crying "There's a van on that lot too many nights as per law." Optimally, I would like Rec Cabin designation, but I am considering parcels that don't have it.
I know about the water deal. And the electricity pole deal. And that you can't have either without a building permit.
Someone told me it could cost over 100K to build a home that meets the basic code requirements, on an undeveloped lot. So, I understand why the raw land sits unsold.
However.....
I saw a comment on the JT Homesteader blog that piqued my interest(this person bought rec cabin parcels at tax sale and now Air BnB's them out). Apparently this person used to do workshops where they imparted their knowledge as to how to get JT area land cheap. Anyway, the comment was that they no longer did those w/shops due to the fact their tips no longer worked, but(this was the part I was piqued by) they said "they're(San Bernardino County, I assume) talking about making the little cabins legal. That will take some years, but it will change everything."
I intend to reach out to that person and ask for clarification, because "the little cabins" ARE legal, so long as they are up code. So what I was wondering is if that person might have been referring to the potential for the allowance for "Tiny Houses" in the county. Anyone have any info on that?
Currently, a house here needs to be almost 800 sq ft, which ain't tiny by the definition. I know that across the country there has been an upsurge in desire for the tiny houses, but out here the closest you can get is if you do have a Rec Cabin, and go that way. Those are getting snapped up as soon as they hit the market, and unless there is a bust, it's only going to get worse. I have a friend who has told me a few Rec Cabin flips that have happened. Good way to make money, if you have it and good contractors, looks like.
Anyway - that's Q2 - any word on zoning changes in the air for smaller houses?
|
|
Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2017 - 02:56pm PT
|
Good advice from everyone. Buy, don't build. We considered buying a lot in the mountains but then factored the costs of utilities, hiring a contractor, the time and cost associated with each. It was cheaper and alot more immediate gratification to buy an existing place. I understand your concern about prices out there though. Meth dens in bad areas are listed at ridiculous prices. For example: https://www.remax.com/realestatehomesforsale/521-cypress-road-joshua-tree-ca-92252-id304374935.html
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2017 - 02:57pm PT
|
Oh! Question 3 - Suppose you have seen a For Sale sign on a parcel that piques interest, but are not ready/able to move on it. Is it really stupid to even call the realtor listed on the sign? Should you hold off on making any contact with a broker until you are able to follow through?
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2017 - 03:00pm PT
|
It's my understanding that if a house cooked meth, it is a biohazzard cleanup to occupy. Thousands upon thousands of dollars. That would be a big "need to know" consideration, if purchasing the crappiest place with a roof and a working crapper.
edit: and yeah....that listing shows just how booming the real estate is here. 80K for 2.5 acres land and a house that needs a complete rehab.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2017 - 03:39pm PT
|
IMO, you're really naive to the costs involved and asking a lot of basic questions. You don't seem to understand what "investment" means.
It's definitely okay to call real estate brokers when you have no money. Ask lots of questions. Be sure pitch your van out in the dirt idea, see what they say, get some reality checks.
Build a spreadsheet and put real numbers to your options.
By the time you get a working toilet on some bare land, that meth house might be going for $1 million on a $100k invested, your van on a bare plot with some utilities dead ending on the lot line might at the same time go for $100k on $100k invested. That's the game you're playing. Or not...
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2017 - 04:22pm PT
|
JLP - Thank you for your insight. Not for your sarcasm, though. That, I find annoying. But when one comes to ST for advice,it's to be expected.
Locker - that listing is Rec Cabin. But way too far away.Maybe Johnson Valley will someday be a in boom but.....that might be a while.
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2017 - 04:50pm PT
|
Locker - It's ON 247. No 4wd required to access the land. The listing was selling the idea that the land was something ORVers might like.
Interesting that the listing implies you can haul water and use a generator for a power source. After seeing that, I looked around a bit and see there has been a brouhaha brewing on the "no water hauling" change, especially for places where a well is unlikely to produce enough water.
Edit: The for sale signs I saw were actually for Sharon Rose. I was able to locate the Parcel Information on the property(ies) I saw, and learn what was available in that database.
Thank you for the recommendation. I will wait until I am ready to take action before calling her, but having someone vouch for them is reassuring.
|
|
AP
Trad climber
Calgary
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2017 - 05:13pm PT
|
Drilling a well could be dicy on the North side due to the geology. The aquifers are better on the South side of 62
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2017 - 05:16pm PT
|
Seeing that typical homes in JT are going for $500k and up makes me want to sell all my stocks for cash and put it under my mattress for the coming apocalypse. All that free money from the past decade is going to come due at some point.
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2017 - 05:21pm PT
|
I told you it was in a boom! How much longer can it go is the question, and when it goes, what will happen with all those loans, and all those little AirBnB hopeful dreams that can't bring in enough to pay the money lent against them.
|
|
seano
Mountain climber
none
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2017 - 07:15pm PT
|
Betting on Cali real estate seems a lot like betting on Bitcoin and other crypto nonsense. There's money to be made, but if you have to ask, you won't make it.
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2017 - 07:04am PT
|
Happy, I think the answer to your original question is that the difference in assessed values resulted from the properties being assessed at different times. Property is generally only reassessed when title is transferred so more recently transferred properties typically have higher assessed values.
As for unsolicited advice, I suggest southern AZ for cheap warm real estate. Better climbing thrown in to sweeten the deal!
|
|
Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2017 - 07:31am PT
|
i would have thought, given that you lived in the Clove Valley,
with all those nice snots who got theirs cheap,
then stood for a building moratorium, for what? 20 years?
in effect the oldest saw in real estate holds true
and the long and short of it is that (without wheel-barrows full of cash)
location
location
location
aint J Tree fun?
if it only had a beach, an ocean ,
it would be
San Diego.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2017 - 08:29am PT
|
Betting on Cali real estate seems a lot like betting on Bitcoin and other crypto nonsense. There's money to be made, but if you have to ask, you won't make it.
Amen. I would insert a link to the Atlanta Fed site so y’all could read a paper about how
buying a house is a bad financial move for over half of Americans if I thought anyone
would read it. But I don’t so I won’t. Anybody who actually cares can easily find it.
|
|
zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2017 - 08:36am PT
|
Teri,
I am in the Golden Years of my career, and possibly my life.
My goal is to have no fixed property address.
Selling my home, and living in my van and boat.
|
|
seano
Mountain climber
none
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2017 - 09:28am PT
|
Selling my home, and living in my van and boat. Awesome! I saw a combined van/trailer/boat rig for sale up in WA some years ago, and thought: if you could tow the boat with the van, and float the van with the boat, you could tour around the world. I doubt it's possible, but I like to imagine that this is what you're doing.
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2017 - 09:34am PT
|
Here's the JT Guide, now hosted on "The Sky Above Us" section of Hub Pages. It's survived three different hosting spots, and since it went to HubPages, I haven't updated it, but I suppose sometime I should sit down and do so.
https://skyaboveus.com/climbing-hiking/firt-timers-guide-to-joshua-tree
Thanks, BTW for explaining the Roll Value variation.
Gnome - People and their games, I suppose. "I'm in, now close the gate." Anyway, I have the best spot in the Clove. I mean - who else has an iconic waterfall in their front yard?
Reilly - I know damned well a house is not a good move for myself, and as I already said, I ain't building one.
Zip - You need to have a "fixed property address" unless you intend to convert your assets to a crypto-currency and don't intend to collect on SSI, or have car insurance, or medical insurance, or pretty much anything, including a driver's license.
I have been using a co-worker's address for mail(of which I get very, very little beyond monthly bank statement), and another person to have online things delivered to. It's a bit of a PITA, but doable. But yeah, you need "something," even if it is just a false front.
RE: AZ- The whole state has similar zoning issues as here, I understand, about "camping" on your spot. I have a coworker who looked into it. However, much as I like climbing, I am not in the "bitten hard" stage any more, unfortunately.
I got spoiled when I was hanging out with "Mister Handsome Roadtripping Partner," and when he vacated, I got depressed and uninterested in going back to my old ways of "partners du jour." Then I hit a financial crisis and had to go back to working for others, and with my little ventures, it was tough to choose a day of climbing over working on the business. I did not want to lose my creative outlets and money streams, and be stuck in a low-wage job I could lose. My climbing partners drifted off, all but one who I get out with in the Gunks.
On the road, it is tough to find partners, and climb with strangers asking them out of hand to accommodate me with my dog needs. In JTNP - well, the NPS is so strict with dog rules that it actually is a deterrent for me to go there. One can only walk the dirt road by Barker Damn and Geology Tour so many times....Luckily, I have been accepted with a group of JTers who go out to Farview.
So climbing, though I love to do it, has come second this last few years. I admit that if another Mister Handsome Roadtripping Climbing Partner showed up, I would be okay with that and thrilled to be climbing more(half days preferred; must love dogs, be smart, kind and philosophical in a low-intensity way....;).
The reason I want a "spot" is really very basic - I want to be able to put out my table and cooking stuff, ad not have to drag out/put away every time I cook, so I can have decent meals and relax while having them, plus a quiet place where I can work on my jewelry craft. I like to cook and eat better when I can. I do NOT like to heat up a can on a Whisperlite in my van, and I don't know how on earth people actually prepare food in a van that is not rigged out with the tabletop.
That's really it! I would be fine parking at Walmart to sleep every night, if I didn't have to wake up and either go to Starbucks for coffee and internet or cook up a pot while squatting in my van...in a parking lot....and then walk Lucas in some very uninspiring terrain.
I can even work on jewelry in the library lot and not actually miiiind, but a nice view is just so much better, and to be able to actually set up a table and work outside on sunny days, instead of using the two front seats of my van and the floor between as "studio" would be really much more enjoyable. I know it would also elevate my creative abilities, as environment is a component.
Re: Using a spot on someone's land - I have been offered it, and though I appreciate the generosity, decided it is not the thing to do.
|
|
Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2017 - 09:58am PT
|
A couple points. First, I agree with ontheedge that unimproved land is not a good investment. If you want to get your foot in the door, fine, but consider whether you'll have the funds later to build. If not, you'll have a piece of land burning a hole in your pocket. Some of the lots I looked at 10 yrs. ago are priced only a little more now than then. Even then, they're only worth that if someone buys it at that price. I worked on an estate where several undeveloped plots in the Johnson Valley sold for several hundred each at auction vs. the several thousand they were appraised at.
Two, there's a definite bubble now. I remember thinking I might to buy soemthing cheap at auction about five years ago when there was alot in the $60-100k range. No more. There's currently a place south of 62 (on Anaconda) that sold for $130k in 2015 that's now listed at $585k (!). Yes the owners made some improvements, but when you get people in Josh buying and flipping properties then you know it's not a buyer's market.
|
|
zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2017 - 10:34am PT
|
Seano,
My sailboat is 0ver 40' long. Not trailerable.
Terri,
I am no longer going to own any property in the form of land.
I will have a PO box.
|
|
seano
Mountain climber
none
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2017 - 10:50am PT
|
Too bad about the boat, though I imagine a 40-footer is more fun to sail and live on. Also, speaking from personal experience, you'll want to maintain a non-PO-box address to renew your driver's license in the US. Proving residence in a particular state to get a license can be a pain.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2017 - 11:42am PT
|
if you could tow the boat with the van, and float the van with the boat
Saw a nice ‘boat’ in Newport Beach. He had his BMW X3 on the deck next to its crane.
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2017 - 11:45am PT
|
Fat Dad - The way I got intrigued was someone telling me about the tax sale, and last August I attempted to participate. I ended up not even bidding, but watched the parcel I had chosen(primarily) get bid on the first day. It went beyond what I had saved by second day and I was glad I had not taken people up on their offers to lend me money so I could get it if the cost was more than I'd saved.
It sat and sat at that price, juuuust beyond my reach, and I started to get mad at myself because maybe had I borrowed.... and here I was, going to lose out being just a bit shy with the cash.
It stayed at the price until the last day. I was SO peeved. Then, it started to go up, but again stopped at an amount I COULD have borrowed. At 5 minutes to end, there it was, and I logged off. When I went back to check after the auction, it had doubled, and went for over $10K. I have to wonder if the buyer got caught up in the excitement, or if they had been smart and knew what they were doing. If that lot were on the market right now, it would be probably at least $15 and maybe even as high as $25.
Edit: Locker - McD coffee is just annoying. It is so watery. At least at S/B it revs my motor(actually really does - too much, even). Besides, the smell of McD grease can be nauseating. Besides - no electric plugs most of the time.... besides..... hahaha
|
|
AP
Trad climber
Calgary
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2017 - 12:35pm PT
|
Hey but people spotting at Walmart is one of the highlights of Yucca Valley
|
|
cbburton
climber
Burbank, CA
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2017 - 02:42pm PT
|
Hey Reilly, would you mind posting the link? i've looked thru some of the Atlanta Fed's site, but aren't sure which paper you're referring to.
Amen. I would insert a link to the Atlanta Fed site so y’all could read a paper about how
buying a house is a bad financial move for over half of Americans if I thought anyone
would read it. But I don’t so I won’t. Anybody who actually cares can easily find it.
thanks,
Chris
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2017 - 04:21pm PT
|
I don't recall the last time I heard anyone, much less a ST typist, suggest home ownership was a good way to gain wealth. Actually - not true. I remember seeing ads all over the NYC subway and bus stop shelters touting how one could absolutely not go wrong in purchasing a home. That was back in the "you don't even need a job! But hurry and get in on this now, because values will ONLY rise!!!" scam. Was that around 2004? Maybe , the years begin to blur for me, when it comes to the small things.
Yes, a lot of people, even here, fell for that and discovered they'd been had, once they realized they were not alone in having taken on those obscene mortgages. But again - this was almost a decade ago.
So, what made you suggest that STians were advising otherwise, Reilly?
|
|
cbburton
climber
Burbank, CA
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2017 - 07:50pm PT
|
many thanks.
Chris
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2017 - 09:26pm PT
|
Recurring expenses are what kill you. Recurring cost of insuring your car is more important than the cost of the car itself. Recurring costs, like rent, will never stop going up, and they come due every month. You buy a place in Ca and Ca not only limits those increases to 2% a year but allows the property to be inherited at your basis. You can't beat this, long term. In 1990 I considered going out to East Mojave and getting everything out to the horizon. But then realized I eventually would need access to doctors. So I settled for a place costing $174/mo and much closer to Locker.
I figure if I have got shoes I am good to go.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
Real estate is a great investment, if you can afford to make the investment. If you're too leveraged, too in a hurry to make money, have zero savy for location and appreciation, etc, then it might be a very bad investment. We have a few places that have doubled in value in the past ~15 yrs, almost paid off. One of them was flat to a loss for over 10 years, bit of a cash pit to keep it going, but we held anyway.
|
|
Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
|
|
Over time all CA real estate will prove to be a good investment. Just depends how much time and capital you have to beat the clock
|
|
AP
Trad climber
Calgary
|
|
People thought real estate was a good investment in 2005
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
The water hauling issue is a big consideration, and making the gamble more risky.
Does anyone have any idea as to whether the people are gaining any leverage in their fight to reinstate the right to be able to haul water? I haven't done much research yet, but remember when the "big change" happened and thought only "Well, it has just come to the time when municipal water was more feasible, and that is why the change is being put in place." Apparently that was shallow thinking.
A friend has told me that as it stands now, one may only haul water IF their place is grandfathered in with an existing water tank. Otherwise, you must pipe municipal or dig a well. One could foreseeably buy a parcel that had the existing tank, but......I am guessing that there would be very, very, few parcels "in the lower ranges" that would have a tank remaining on the land. My thinking is that if someone had, say, a parcel with an old homestead cabin with a tank, but the cabin has either been left to the elements and not inhabited, or taken down, with only the pad remaining, any tank on that plot is long gone, scavanged.
Someone also mentioned to me that they heard of a person bought an old Rec Cabin spot and "luckily the tank was there so could be grandfathered." I thought I caught a whiff of "...there was no tank one day, but when the inspector came, viola!" Or, maybe that is just the cogs rolling in my devious mind. But I did not ask. That sounds like a dangerous game, if one was apprehended in the act of trying to flimflam, but it also sounds like the kind of thing that would happen out here, the most difficult part being the locating and moving of a properly patina'd tank, especially with satellite imagery that might not have been updated in a while.
A few clicks the other day took me to some news links where people are upset and calling this elimination of water hauling to be a land grab, because for many, the elimination of hauling water has devalued their properties. Many had bought BITD as retirement home plots, or as investment, and the added cost to pipe in or dig a well is bad enough, but some cannot get pied in, and a well may not produce adequate or reliable water. They feel they cannot sell or develop, and that the law constitutes taking of land without compensation.
I will see what more I can find, but of course input from those wh might already have an idea is appreciated.
|
|
Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
|
|
Many had bought BITD as retirement home plots, or as investment, and the added cost to pipe in or dig a well is bad enough, but some cannot get pied in, and a well may not produce adequate or reliable water. They feel they cannot sell or develop, and that the law constitutes taking of land without compensation.
Unless you have unlimited resources, real estate should be purchased as a place to live. I have little sympathy for people who buy as an investment. Health and safety regulation is unlikely to be a taking, ever.
Does the ban on hauling water apply to city or county property? Sounds like a real game changer for all that property north of JT.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
Reads to me as a way to prevent the area from becoming a gypsy ghetto. If you can't a afford a pipe, don't bother, they don't want you. Seems reasonable to me.
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
Reads to me as a way to prevent the area from becoming a gypsy ghetto. If you can't a afford a pipe, don't bother, they don't want you. Seems reasonable to me.
The cost of a building permit alone eliminates "gypsy ghetto," as you referred to. Anyone who is going to put up a structure without obtaining a permit ain't going to be stopped by a water haul ban.
From Lockers post, it seems this is statewide, not just a county thing. And who is "they?" Because there are plenty of people who OWN lands affected by the water haul ban. I've heard of self hatred but that's a stretch in this situation.
Edit: I am inclined to agree it is about making money. Land boom in more isolated areas>Eliminate water haul>land prices plummet>speculators sweep in and buy up after having cut a deal on water piping>bring in the water with development of tract subdivisions>start selling and ride a new boom.
Maybe that is not the intention, but if I were a Donald Trump type slimeball creepster with an eye for residential development, that would be absolutely what I would be thinking. And if that isn't stealing land, it's only so in the eyes of creepster slimeballs.
|
|
climb_eng
Trad climber
Calgary, AB
|
|
Correct me if I'm wrong, but over the long term in California, real estate has been a fantastic investment, even if you bought in July of 2008.
|
|
Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
We've done well with our real estate purchases, but they were incidental to buying first to have a place to live. The investment part was really a secondary goal. Having said that, buying in the westside of LA was not a bad use of funds. Our mortgage has probably been less to what rent for a comparable house would have been, though the costs of maintenance, property tax (ugh) and improvements get expensive. We also bought a little place in the mountains, just for family enjoyment, which is good because that has not been a good investment. Great fun and memories, yes. Good return on the money, no.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
So you want a nice inexpensive little place - next to a national park - in California - and you don't want to have get a job in the community [or anywhere else] to help pay for it...? Well, isn't that special.
So you're running into some barriers, that generally increase cost if not flat out block the way? No way, those greedy controlling bastards...
Gentrification has been going on everywhere for a long time.
|
|
Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
|
|
JLP nails it, if it was easy we would all be doing it.
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
So you want a nice inexpensive little place - next to a national park - in California - and you don't want to have get a job in the community [or anywhere else] to help pay for it...? Well, isn't that special.
I work JLP. I don't know why you, and some others, seem to refuse to acknowledge that fact. I work at least some portion of every single day, and when I am in NY I work probably 75 hours a week.
I ALSO have ZERO shelter costs at my NY home. That allows a good portion of the income I make to go to other uses.
I don't WANT a home in Joshua Tree; I don't need a HOME. It makes little sense to me to have one at this phase in my life.
Why does it rankle some of you people sooooo much that I don't play by the rules YOU think I should?
Sheeesh!
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
Real estate is a great investment,
See, Happi? That’s what I was talking about - Kool-Aid drinkers. I’m quite sure nobody except cbburton read my link. Everybody who has seen their house double or triple in value thinks they made a killing. While that is better than a sharp stick in the eye it ain’t jack compared to proper investing. My house has tripled in value but I don’t even consider it an investment - more like a ball and chain.
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
I read it, but there wasn't anything in the article I hadn't read or heard before.
But, not everyone is interested in "proper investing." Seeing the weasely games that get played with stocks, and how companies are beaten with a stick to perform at all costs - or else? That, to me, is nothing to be proud of as a money-generating machine. I think the stock game is like a cancer.
And not everyone needs their to grow money like they're going all in for this years Grand Prize for the Biggest Zucchini at the County Fair.
|
|
Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
Sorry Reilly but I think that the piece you linked is your typical economist whose perspective is limited by his head up his ass, oops, I mean whose data is limited and fails to acknolwedge or factor other issues at play. First, it addresses the issue of solely real estate as an investment. However, it starts with a false premise that everyone buys real estate primarily as an investment. It ignores the reality that most buy because they need a place to live and the benefits of buying outweigh the benefits of renting. Second, it suggests that people of color are limited in their wealth accumulation because their home is their primary investment. However, this ignores the reality (which the article showed in a chart but did not address in the body of the article) that people of color often earn far less (the effects of less education, societal factors, etc.) and so do not have the means to aggressively invest in other sectors. Third, as with every article I've seen on this subject, it fails to acknowledge that people still need to pay for housing costs and that the wealth gained from home ownership is far greater than having no equity captured from renting over the same period.
Honestly, the article struck me as a disingenuous effort to argue in favor support the Republican tax bill, which caps deductions on property tax. The argument behind this flawed provision is that it will force people to diversify their wealth by making home ownership less attractive. However, that presumes people have surplus wealth to invest in something other than housing.
|
|
Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
People thought real estate was a good investment in 2005
It was a great investment in 2011. I bought because I needed a place to live. I don't like the mortgage, but the payment doesn't go up. Rent goes up year after year. Screw that.
|
|
10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
|
|
My house has tripled in value but I don’t even consider it an investment - more like a ball and chain.
that's for sure.
some people go to the wilderness to get away from the city. I go to get away from the city, and the house.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
Fat Dad, “disingenuous”? The author intended to mislead and distort by showing how people could better themselves? And this was written long before the new tax bill was even a twinkle in Paul Ryan’s eye. Do you regularly review economics papers for The Daily Worker?
|
|
fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
|
|
....I think the stock game is like a cancer.....
But with an alluring aroma of opium for the masses not in the club...
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
Maybe the "club" is the ones who have a fix on the shell game. But if the club is just all those who invest in it, then I'm glad to be clean and sober, and one of the lucky ones who doesn't get triggered when they smell their drug of choice.
I have had 401k's and that kind of stuff at various work places. In fact, I funded my move from Wisconsin to NYC by cashing out the plan I had with JCPenny when I worked there, even as everyone said it was a bad idea.
I read about, especially the portfolio products that the average person has in a work 401k and how sometimes they include companies that you might find deplorable(and usually those are the ones that are *winning*).
I get the idea of growth through passive investment. It can be lucrative, and it's nearly impossible to amass a comfortable retirement if you are not gaining by SOME kind of passive income, even if it is by having employees who do the labor, although I know - that's not really passive income(ethically, I do consider it so, even though it's not technically so).
But those shenanigans are really a thing that causes a lot of the hate that is within a society. I know.....an employer/employee relationship is a foundation of our economics, but there's always "the line." The line between where the employer is being fair, and when they are taking more than their share, with the law is firmly on their side to do so.
Rules are made for people who need rules. And sometimes those people who need rules need those rules in order for them to take more than what is, in a spiritual sense of universal law, rightfully theirs.
Edit: And before Reilly can giggle over my quaint idea of considering a 401k as an "real" investment tooo, yeah, I get it that the "big boys" chose on their own what they will buy/sell, or pay a broker a portion of the takes, and to not soak them in the long run.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
Renting can be cheaper than owning, even long term, especially if you are comparing something smaller than what you would likely buy. If you buy leveraged, the bank is probably your landlord. You won't see that money back either. The interest tax deduction is insignificant.
Appreciation is a check you'll never cash unless you downsize, even then the gains will get taxed to nothing. Your house tripled - so did everyone else's.
Home ownership, if you're honest and do the math, is really about lifestyle.
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
Appreciation is a check you'll never cash unless you downsize, even then the gains will get taxed to nothing.
Hmmm, with home sale tax exlcusion (250,000 / 500,000), and maximum tax of 20% on any remainder, pretty hard to see how that's going to get you to nothing--the tax you pay seems somewhat closer (percentage wise) to that "insignificant" mortgage interest deduction.
|
|
Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
|
|
Yeah, a lot of moving parts. We did pretty well, and a good chunk of our retirement came from the sale. When you sell at retirement and downsize--as we did--you take no capital gains taxes--schweet. I thought folks who were buying at the top of the 2008 bubble were crazy. The math made NO sense, but they got caught up in the frenzy. The rest is history. It is a bummer, though, knowing that all that rent is never coming back. A house in the right market can at least help recoup some of that--if not make you some money. I sometimes think of people who go out and buy a new car because they want lower gas mileage without looking at the hard numbers. How long will you have to drive the new rig to make up for the differential? Sometimes keeping the old rig really pays.
BAd
|
|
Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
Renting can be cheaper than owning,
The payment on my condo is about $300 a month cheaper than the rent on a comparable unit.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
Hmmm, with home sale tax exlcusion.. That's a little newer, forgot about it. Thing is, it's small compared to the transaction costs of selling, buying and possibly refinancing into something smaller. Most don't do it to pocket cash, they do it to get rid of a lawn and maintenance on an aging house. Do you win, sure a lot of people win, maybe even most, but it's not a given.
The payment on my condo Tell us all about your condo after you sell it and move, then compare. Of course, many here also win - but definitely not all with a condo - a lot of people write checks to get out of those deals. Condo prices are generally much less stable than single family homes, and they appreciate much less as well as they generally have no land underneath, plus often the association fees.
Point for OP - given all information given - a plot in JT sounds to me like a really bad idea. Buy a rehab/meth lab instead.
|
|
Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
Tell us all about your condo after you sell it and move,
No guarantees in life, for sure. But it's cheaper than rent, I bought at the bottom of the last market and so far have some equity. I also made sure it was not leased land. I could have purchased a condo on leased land for about 70% of what I paid. One of those was on Pacific Coast Highway which would have made for a great address!
|
|
Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
The author intended to mislead and distort by showing how people could better themselves? And this was written long before the new tax bill was even a twinkle in Paul Ryan’s eye. Do you regularly review economics papers for The Daily Worker? No, I never said that he intended to mislead. I was very clearly saying that he was ignoring ALOT of relevant facts to establish his premise. Economists do it all the time when they assume, for example, that the market will correct itself and regulate to achieve the highest and best result. That little assumption ignores every piece of evidence we have about greed, collusion, etc., etc. After the bank crash, Greenspan dumbfounded me when he acknowledged that he was surprised by the level of greed to prompted it. Really!? Smart guys know better.
The article was written in Sept. 2017, just before they publicly acknowledged work on a tax bill. Moreover, the argument about limiting property tax deductions is not one that was just promulgated. It's clear that argument has circulated for a while but never caught traction until the current crop of plutocrats in Congress.
I don't regularly review economic papers, but you know that's irrelevant.
Let's put it this way: where does the guy who wrote the article live? I bet you it's in a house.
For those of you who argue that real estate doesn't build wealth, I can tell you that for about 95% of the estate I probate the great majority of the value (between 80-100%) comes from the equity in the decedent's residence. Do you see that money if you don't sell and downsize? No, but your heirs will thank you later.
|
|
Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
|
|
Do you see that money if you don't sell and downsize?
reverse mortgage is a nice option to have too
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
Economists do it all the time when they assume, for example, that the market will correct itself and regulate to achieve the highest and best result.
Apprently you haven’t read Robert Shiller. They don’t hand out Nobel prizes to people who cherry pick their data. The vast majority of homes only appreciate at the inflation rate. A few markets do better, but not most.
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
|
|
What fun to start on a home or land project. Whenever you ask questions of people you never lose. Ask, ask, ask. It is like putting together puzzle pieces, the more info you have the better decisions you can make down the line. And you, Happiee, have a lot of friends and resources in the area.
I agree with those that suggest a developed piece rather than bare land. Search the area and learn as much as you can. For example: Do you like sunsets, sunrises or both, then look at how the dwelling faces. How does the H2o flow in a torrential downpour. Park there morning, noon and night to see what the neighbors are like....especially weekends. Of course you know to check roofs, flush and use all toilets sinks and outdoor faucets. Buying the fixer upper in a nice 'hood has worked for us in the past.
Good Luck and have fun!
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
I can not afford a house, there is no doubt about that. And...I DON'T WANT A HOUSE!!!!
|
|
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
|
|
how bout some green eggs and ham?
|
|
Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
Why not just park on BLM land? Why buy a lot?
|
|
seano
Mountain climber
none
|
|
I do not want it, Sam I am!
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
Ease up there Terri.. remember.. this is the taco. Did you really expect these yahoos to read and comprehend what you said? hahaha..
Good luck finding what you need. I just bought an older mobile home in AZ. I found some in the 25K range on their own property, but they needed fixing up. I spent a bit more to get one that had most of the work done. I understand wanting a place to land. I lived out of my vehicle for most of 4 years. Like Dingus pointed out.. it was especially hard because I have health problems. But now I have a roof over my head thats mine and no one can boot me out because I own the land too. I do understand that you don't really want an actual home, but rather a place to park your vehicle and land. I hope that you find a solution.
You pointed out some the difficulties of living out of a vehicle, so I thought that I would point you at a website of a guy who lives out of his van. He answers many of your questions. Such as how to get mail as you travel. ( using a mail forwarder )
http://www.cheaprvliving.com/gatherings/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jntFI_5FiA8&list=PLDWe0DeV3D3xbO5cvObGa5EXtLPCPlYLp
He kind of drones on, but I like him because he gets it that its pretty difficult out there right now.
His videos on youtube have more answers.
Good luck with your search.
|
|
BigB
Trad climber
Red Rock
|
|
I feel your pain^^^ :/
|
|
justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
|
|
Ok I totally get it. You want a place to park that is yours. House is too expensive and too much maitenance .
My $.02 ( having family and friends direct experience to draw on) is that a bare land purchase in the high desert is a terrible investment. Everyone I know that has done it... regretted it. You'll have to pay cash and the banks won't lend you a dime for anything ever.
As you get older your views on van life may change. At the very least I'd be searching for something with some sort of access to utilities and water- even if there is no structure. It gives you the option to park a larger rig or install a mobile home in the future.
If you just want a place to park- why not look into renting or leasing a space? I have one friend who found a pretty cheap space on someone's land in Yucca Valley and they are allowed to hook up to water and power. Like someone also mentioned.... with some research and some moving around periodically-, you could likely poach BLM indefinitely if all you need is a parking spot.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
SomebodyAnybody, nicely put, sir/madam. There’s a reason it’s called a ‘job’. My job today is to get us from Lompoc to Pismo Beach. I know, somebody has to do it. 😬
Nice article in the LA Times the other day about how ‘middle-class’ Indians, who work their azzes off, know they’ve made it when they can afford a $200 air conditioner.
|
|
10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
|
|
Why not just park on BLM land? Why buy a lot?
ok, I don't know if this has been asked. Why not buy a used trailer, and park it on BLM land, or find someone willing to let you park it on their property,
if you talk to the right people(hint).
|
|
Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
|
|
Reilly, what's wrong with Lompoc?
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
Why not just park on BLM land? Why buy a lot?
Because, and Because.
Because, because, because, because, beCAUZZZZZ!(Sung to the tune of "We're Off to See the Wizard")
Let's just say, "because." But the longer answer would be that I don't want a house, but I do want some of the things that go along with a house.
John M - Thanks for the links.
SomebodyAnybody - Well, every year my income on those hobbies you referred to has grown. And, as I said(how many times?) - my needs are not the average. I have zero housing costs in NY.
And, I HAVE one of those "get up in the dark"(except I have no electricity to light, and rely on a headlamp, and it's usually getting cold by that time of year so cooking up that cheap joe is not as mind-numbing as it is for that person who hates their job). I actually LIKE my job in NY, and the cold start is bracing. Yes, positively bracing, I tell you! I swear!
Soooo..... on the trajectory I am on, my "hobbies" may, not so far into the distant future, very well bring in an income that supersedes the amount some of those poor sods earn in their drone jobs. But that won't happen if I go get one of "those" drone jobs that sap away one's time and energy. Then, I'll be just like all those other non-special people who worked their asses off and at the end of the ride realize they have been had. I will NOT be had(if I can help it)! I may become a poor old lady living alone and withering away in some dark hovel - but as we all know - working one's butt to the bone and scrimping and saving is NO guarantee against that exact final stretch of the race. No, indeed it is not!
It is TOO late for me to have a "comfortable retirement." I was never taught about the game, until I had already left the laying field. Ooops, typo there! I meant "playing field," although for some, that playing field is the laying field. Men and women alike - and don't anyone DARE go there about women goldseekers, if they EVER posted or supported a post about living off some chick in Yosemite so they could climb when they were young pups of men.
Even if I did give up everything I have now and somehow land a job they were willing to pay me at a level anywhere near what I made in the apex of my "career," there would be no easing toward the finish line. What would happen is that I would scrimp and save and then when it came time to need assisted living.....whoooosh! Down the toilet every penny of it would get flushed. Within months.
And while I can't say that there will never be another "beg-fest" as you refer to it, I will say this: If ANYONE purchased one of my chalkbags out of sympathy, and does not feel they have gotten full value for what they paid - PLEASE contact me and I will make it right. Full refund, and keep the chalkbag.
And ya know what? Just to peeeeeeeeeeve you, I may very well create a GoFundMe when I am ready to take the step on signing on the line for a parcel. Oh yes....I can see it now! In full colr, I see it forming in my mind's eye!
Except GoFund Me takes a cut, and I have no intention of that happening, so just like every other thing I do that rankles some here down to their ankles(Dr. Suess would like that one, maybe) it will be a pirate GoFundMe. OH BABEE! I can just see the faces turning red in rAAAAAAAge!
Ahhhhh...winding down, now....
MAN, that first cup of coffee in the morning packs a punch! Howz that for a rant?!
Renting/Leasing/BLM - Yes, I have looked into those things, and I may very well end up reconsidering, although the BLM is out. Reason being that it just doesn't offer enough return on the time spent driving to/from. I'd rather cook coffee on the cooler top-c#m-tabletop and eat cold cereal, and be closer to morning online(for those hobbies, and also time sink of social media addiction, one of my vices), than to have the quieter(maybe?) night hours and home cooking, but have to pack everything out/back before winding down/starting a day. For "all I need is a parking lot," I have that covered with Casa de Walmart.
Is $5-20K (the range I have been seeing online, well, looking at, if you know what I mean, because obviously there are places that cost more) really what people would consider "bad investment?" Even with taxes(anywhere between $180-$500/yr).
Honest question! I know that may seem a face plant to the desk, frustrating, question, but...is it? I have more than the low number currently in my "hobby" supplies and inventory. It's the cost of a vehicle for "someone like me." (heading off the soldiers at the pass: ignoring, for the moment, that my van could go down at any moment)
For me, the amount is A LOT, but it's not "investment a lot." It's kind of like pissing into the wind and being happy my pants bottom didn't get wet money(girls squat, remember). Over long term, I mean. If I got my pants legs wet EVERY SINGLE TIME I went pee for the next twenty years, that would be like wet pants bottom=investing money.
I am sorry to those who are trying to talk sense into me and getting angry at my responses. Honest. The rant upthread was as much me having fun with creative writing as it was serious.
But I have been "set upon this path" and I need to walk it. That does not mean I will buy a parcel in JT(though I really do feel the urge).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QZD_niSlK8
|
|
Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
|
|
I was just going to suggest the same as Jim Clipper - build a carport with an attached shed to it. No big costs, not much maintenance, but you can leave stuff you don't want to haul across the country there - like a simple set of table & chairs. It gives you shade, leaves a sense of ownership of the land, can be very practical. Or just a shed with poles close to attach a big canvasroof to, which you take down when you leave.
About the location - if you want to be on a certain spot, it's all that matters. Then it does have value - for you. There may be drawbacks, but if they don't matter to you, it's not a hindrance. There will also be someone else with the same taste as you have, so if you want to get rid of it some day in the future it will always be possible. It'll just take a little longer, but so what? Of course you should try to negotiate the price, but in my world that's what one does when buying land or houses.
There also are portable solar power packs, so you can charge your phones etc, and leave in the shed. Here's a very portable one:
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
being happy my pants bottom didn't get wet money(girls squat, remember).
Look up "Female urination device" on Google. You can actually urinate at night without leaving the tent. Carry it in a second chalk bag. When I told ms about these, at midnight she now pounds her chest while roaring
"Thank you God Almighty! Free! I am free at last!"
I have decided however not to tell her about the fast draw holster she could get for her taser.
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
Terri.. in terms of "investment". It just depends on what you hope to get out of it. If you hope to be able to park your van on it indefinitely, and you manage to do that without getting busted. And if it meets your other needs, then fine, spending 10k on a desert lot might be for you. But I would be concerned about buying a piece of property and then having someone complain. It might not be a neighbor. Might just be someone who doesn't like you for whatever crazy reason the desert seems to cook up. Then owing a piece of property that you have no hope of selling or using becomes a wasted investment of money. Thats what concerns most of us.
I like the idea of a long term lease. Find someone who bought a lot and can't sell. Then lease it from them with terms that allow you to break the lease if someone complains and you can't use it anymore. If find someone who wants someone living on their property. Maybe they have a large property and just want someone on it. They might even pay to get hookups installed. There are websites for caretaker jobs. those include every level of property care taking. from full time job, to just living on the property.
If you do go that route, then please hit us up for the language that needs to be in your lease.
I also like the idea of putting a garage on a lot with solar. Though I don't know about security issues when you are gone. Someone could easily come along and strip everything, and the desert seems to breed those kinds of people.
Believe me.. I know what its like to want a permanent place to call your own. With health problems, I did not enjoy living out of my vehicle. We just want to make certain that what you get is actually useable. I'm certain that is your desire too, but many of us also know about wishful thinking and we just want to make certain that you aren't doing that with regards to buying a piece of property.
Terri, here is that same guy explaining how to get internet on the road. Lots of ideas in it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBoPjR3qSi0
Edit: Lollie.. its the desert, and there are all kinds of security issues when one isn't in full time residence.
|
|
kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
|
|
There's some good discussion and advice on this thread.
Jim C, I really like your palapa idea.
Terrie, ignore the naysayers. I appreciate the chalkbags I've bought from you, as did the people who received them. You make an extremely well designed product and I like buying from the source directly. I wish you the best with your future endevours!
|
|
Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
|
|
John M,
:-D
if she doesn't use the the solar to electrify the shack door's and windows' handles and locks, with 12 volts. As in fencing in cows. Hurts as hell, but not dangerous. Only needs a remote to control it, so Happie can open it herself.
|
|
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
|
|
zip...You can use those life like dolls to practice love making...They never get headaches...rj
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
Reilly, what's wrong with Lompoc?
Nuthin! Quite like it, but we’ve resers in Pismo and that’s where the Monarchs are!
Just wish the Air Fuzz woulda let us onto the base so we coulda gone to Point Arguello.
|
|
t-bone
climber
Bishop
|
|
I didn't bother reading all the posts, but is living in a van on a parcel legal in this area? I believe most zoning in CA counties doesn't allow an RV for primary residence, unless for temporary use (typically during construction with a building permit on file).
Maybe it's remote enough nobody cares, but it would be a shame to go through all the hassle and still not be able to park the van.
Good luck.
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
From what I have found, Legally, you can camp for 3 nights out of 30. You can camp if you have a building permit, and I think that goes for two years, and if you aren't ready to occupy, can extend for one more.
From other posts, re: garage: You cannot build a secondary building before the primary residence.
The SB County codes are complex and cumbersome.
|
|
Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
|
|
From other posts, re: garage: You cannot build a secondary building before the primary residence.
Even if you seek building permit for it?
You know, there's ALWAYS loopholes to use. In any law. Unfortunately I don't know American - Californian - building law, but this is my area of expertise over here. You just need to find the right person, she who knows how to navigate these waters.
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
Not taking the time to look up to verify, I remember reading that it has to be primary residence structure first.
You have to have permits to do pretty much anything, like grading. If you are landscaping, retainer walls over 3 ft high need a permit and fences over six feet need a permit.
I gut a chuckle out of the electric fence idea, but the tweekers probably wouldn't even notice, and the rednecks...well, I think that would be asking for your building to be used for target practice.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
|
|
Good Lord...
A plot of sand out here is not going to work. Period. Losers are stealing ENTIRE cargo containers these days off of bare land. If you left anything out on your siliceous utopia it would be gone, for certain.
Garage can't come first... Primary residence must, which you can't build, afford, or want, so that is out. Security will be the impossible dream. If you go to the Park, by dusk your card table, water jug and propane cylinder will already be doing lab work in San Bernardino.
6 things to look into to make this September of your years dream come true:
1. Be a caretaker or house sitter for some rich goner.
2. Lease the ass end of someones established house and property. Nobody will notice a van on the back forty of a real residence.
3. Husband hunt... grim I know, but fuk sake... all the mod cons will come with a nice Christian man with a house.
4. Be a live in helper at some the latest goner ranches aka HipCamps popping up. Help out so you can use one of their exclusive glamping spots in return for some security and a place to park your rig.
5. Go legit, get a job, and get a room or something in town like regular folks. Seasonal. You seem to know something about multimeters and beaters, plus AutoZone won't miss you much when you bolt back to NY in the Spring.
6. Join a cult and let it flow. New ones are starting up out here all the time.
I'm still only going 2/10 on this troll though.
|
|
drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
|
|
Locker’s single.
<3
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
Well, Lollie - Before I had read anything about the zoning and codes, I had an idea I could excavate a hole and place a container in it. Then backfill and bury the back, top and one end. I was thinking a rock wall coming out alongside the back at the "opening end." Since I didn't know the deal with water, I thought if I had water, I could have the water heater inside the container, with an outdoor shower that could be disassembled back to the container at season's end.
At travel time, I could put my garden furniture, the bicylce I would maybe have gotten, the grill, and whatever else to stay behind, into the container, and seal it up.
One could still do that....and rent it as a primo HipCamp site, if you had the residence.
At any rate, I am still doing research, and can only say...we'll see.
And Russ - I don't need a plot of sand bad enough to work a seasonal job. I know it is difficult for people to get it, but I NEED the time to work on my creative projects. It's tough enough to keep up when I am in NY, where my job actually ALLOWS me the time to work on the stuff while I am working for them!
If I had to give up on my creative things, I might as well just let my spirit break and start drinking again.
I don't have much, compared to "the normies." Please don't discount the most important part of who I am. God damn it, now I'm tearing up.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
You likely can’t make it a campground, hostel, rv park, hippie commune either without rezoning, licences or just plain getting shot at by your neighbors. The common denominator is you are basically stealing value and equity from the investments of other members of your neighborhood, and there are laws to prevent that.
The PIT was so many levels of wrong, anywhere else the cops would have been there every night. Not a good model to follow.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 92 of total 92 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!