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Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 16, 2018 - 09:07pm PT
the market cannot exist without property rights
which cannot exist without government

Hooowee! That’s some bodacious blathering! I’m gonna forward that one to some
of my economist friends. I bet they wanna lern sumpin tonite too!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 16, 2018 - 09:28pm PT
Reilly...You have friends...?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 17, 2018 - 07:39am PT
I have just one word for you guys: industrial democracy.

It's the future. Live it, or live with it.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Oct 17, 2018 - 09:53am PT
^^^ That's two words.

Moreover, it's a phrase that is not at all incompatible with free-market labor.

Nothing about that "movement" generates value out of thin air. And the more that workers are owners, the MORE they will realize the necessary connection between labor-value and wages. Such people will be the FIRST to realize that you cannot by mere fiat raise wages.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 17, 2018 - 09:57am PT
Such people will be the FIRST to realize that you cannot by mere fiat raise wages.

Now, MB, you know that’s not true. It might not work out too swell, but it can be done.
To that end rumor has it that Bernie is down in Venezuela worshipping at the feet of his
economic guru Nicolas Maduro.


RJ, I do! You do realize you can’t take yerself off the list?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Oct 17, 2018 - 10:17am PT
^^^ LOL

Now, Reilly, I've never met you, but you can count me among your friends.

Of course, around these circles, you might not want to claim it.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 17, 2018 - 10:56am PT
Nothing about that "movement" generates value out of thin air. And the more that workers are owners, the MORE they will realize the necessary connection between labor-value and wages. Such people will be the FIRST to realize that you cannot by mere fiat raise wages.

Absolutely. You forgot to mention that as workers become the owners and controllers of their work, they get the added benefit of not having to maintain a parasitic capitalist class.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Oct 17, 2018 - 11:14am PT
^^^ LOL

No, instead they ARE the "parasitic capitalists" themselves, as their "ideals" crash on the hard rocks of economic realities.

Gary, do you own a business? Have you ever created a job? I mean a real job, in an EIN company, benefits, health-care, the whole works? A job that lasts for years and years because your company lasts for years and years?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 17, 2018 - 11:20am PT
No, instead they ARE the "parasitic capitalists" themselves,

That's the whole point of socialism, amigo. The proceeds of one's labor is not siphoned off to some so-called "owning" class.

Here's one idea: you produce, you profit from your work; you do nothing, you pound sand.

Capitalists hate that idea.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Oct 17, 2018 - 11:39am PT
I suppose one must have some sort of tool in-hand to be a bonafide "producer," right? Like, say, a hammer or a sickle?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Oct 17, 2018 - 11:43am PT
Capitalists hate that idea.

No, capitalists do not hate that idea.

The idea that businesses hate is government setting an arbitrary, non-market-driven value for an arbitrary set of labor.

Let's keep this on topic rather than go off on a whole tangent of socialism vs. capitalism.

As I've argued above. There's just a market, regardless of the "economic system" some government tries to impose. In the most socialistic and even communist nations, there was still a market that defied all attempts to impose some economic system upon it. That principle spans all of human history, without exception.

Now, in the context of the market, different goods, services, and sorts of labor have different values. That's a frank fact that cannot be disputed. So, in that context, it is not possible to tweak just one of the related pieces in isolation. Tweak the value of labor arbitrarily, and you necessarily motivate the market to correct for that "adjustment." Prices go up. That sort of labor finds fewer jobs. And so on.

This is not just "big wall theory." We have observed this without exception everywhere we've looked, regardless of economic system.

I don't care if the laborer is also the owner. That person qua owner will tell him/herself qua laborer, "Hey, we just can't afford to raise your salary to some arbitrary minimum. There just isn't the money in the company for that. Now, if you can increase your value by increasing productivity, then that will generate more money, which can net you a higher salary."

Your problem, Gary, seems to be that you see "capitalists" doing some "skimming" (called "profit") that you think should ALL go back to the laborer.

But that's a very, very superficial assessment of how a job is created!

So, I'll ask again: Have you EVER created a job?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 17, 2018 - 12:12pm PT
I don't care if the laborer is also the owner. That person qua owner will tell him/herself qua laborer, "Hey, we just can't afford to raise your salary to some arbitrary minimum. There just isn't the money in the company for that. Now, if you can increase your value by increasing productivity, then that will generate more money, which can net you a higher salary."

That's why we've seen wages rise alongside increases in worker productivity?

Your whole dialog there becomes pointless when the people that work own their work.

So, I'll ask again: Have you EVER created a job?

I've done better than create a job, I've created capital.

I suppose one must have some sort of tool in-hand to be a bonafide "producer," right? Like, say, a hammer or a sickle?

You have a too narrow a definition of work.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Oct 17, 2018 - 12:46pm PT
Your whole dialog there becomes pointless when the people that work own their work.

Of course the worker owns his own labor. We agree! And if the salary arrangement he has with his employer is not market rate he is free to take his labor to another employer or to his own endeavors. As long as there is no collusion to fix his wages overtly or through “non compete” contracts or “poaching” agreements between employers, the worker will prevail within the context of the market commensurate with his skill set. Government’s role is to punish collusion and assure worker safety. Again, not to assign wages.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Oct 17, 2018 - 12:53pm PT
I've done better than create a job, I've created capital.

This isn't a question of "better" or "worse." This is a question of your awareness from actual experience of the constraints of creating a job.

Your view of "a job" is incredibly naive, and that stems from the fact that ALL you've ever done is "create capital." See, you really haven't, despite what you think.

You've traded something of value (your time/energy) for capital (the pay you received). They are NOT equivalent. You've done NOTHING more than engaged in a transaction (in the market), in which you agreed: "I'll TRADE some of my time/energy for some of your capital." Thus, you've agreed to RECEIVE capital in EXCHANGE for your time/energy.

What you are failing to see is that the actual capital you receive didn't emerge from the ether. Moreover, YOU didn't CREATE "it," contrary to what you assert.

You might have contributed toward creating a subset of what you received in exchange for your time/energy. But there is NO 1-to-1 equivalency between your time/energy and the capital you produce or receive. And that's because that "job" only exists in a very, very complex context. It is that context that you naively pretend does not exist.

And, until you do the hard work of creating such a context, you simply will not believe anything I say about it. CREATE an actual JOB in an actual COMPANY, and then I am certain that your entire perspective on this subject will do a 180. People that have only ever received a paycheck literally have NO idea of the vast complexity involved in creating the context in which a "job" even exists!
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Oct 17, 2018 - 01:51pm PT
Any law setting a minimum wage tied to a "living wage" standard is untenable and ridiculous.

The retail and tourism industries that rely on part time labor and entry level workers would go under immediately which would devastate commercial real estate and so on.

Skilled labor is market driven and takes care of itself. So get yourself skilled and work hard or suffer the consequences of poverty- that's the way it works folks.
Credit: Contractor
Minimum wage is a non issue in construction here in SoCal. Good concrete finishers are $350 a day...the market sets that rate.

And yes Lituya, they're legal and I don't force them to do anything they don't want to do.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Oct 17, 2018 - 01:57pm PT
Well said, Contractor. Sadly, your own Democratic Party is in the process of trying to take wage decisions away from the market--and, by extension, the success both you and the workers you share jobs with have enjoyed.

!Bienvenido al lado oscuro!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Oct 17, 2018 - 02:00pm PT
So get yourself skilled and work hard or suffer the consequences of poverty- that's the way it works folks.

And there it is.

In other words, become MARKETABLE, and your wages will never be "minimal."
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Oct 17, 2018 - 05:03pm PT
MB1 said:

And, until you do the hard work of creating such a context, you simply will not believe anything I say about it. CREATE an actual JOB in an actual COMPANY, and then I am certain that your entire perspective on this subject will do a 180. People that have only ever received a paycheck literally have NO idea of the vast complexity involved in creating the context in which a "job" even exists!

So much truth here. Way too many people have never spent time talking to folks who create and run businesses. The risk, the stress, all the grueling work that goes into creating a job that pays a wage is hard to understand. I've never created a job, but I've got huge respect for those who do. Most workers who simply receive a paycheck have no clue.

BAd
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 17, 2018 - 05:05pm PT
Of course the worker owns his own labor.

Under the present system, that is untrue.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Oct 17, 2018 - 05:39pm PT
The present system will remain; it is the natural order. Personal freedom and economic freedom are so intertwined, no tearing down will be tolerated for any serious length of time. Sorry, but if it makes you feel any better, here's a quote from someone I generally loathe, Peter Singer. No doubt you are familiar with it, but for the rest:

Capitalism is very far from a perfect system, but so far we have yet to find anything that clearly does a better job of meeting human needs than a regulated capitalist economy coupled with a welfare and health care system that meets the basic needs of those who do not thrive in the capitalist economy. If we ever do find a better system, I'll be happy to call myself an anti-capitalist.

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