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chipper_shredder

Social climber
outinthecuts
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2018 - 10:02pm PT





This, like may, is a vexing issue involving many factors
What I don't understand is the constant retreat to the corner of rigid
Dogma, the leftist saying nationalize it
The capitalist saying the market will fix it self.
In a just society all businesses would be worker owned
or have, at least, a profit sharing component.
I believe.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Oct 19, 2018 - 10:57pm PT
Somebody's gotta tell 'em--they might go too far some day.

I'm with ya, my friend. I was joking around, but I guess that my sarcasm wasn't sharpened to quite, well, sharp a point. No even veiled rebuke intended.
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Oct 20, 2018 - 07:23am PT
@Chipper: Hilarious!

@xCon: As MB1 describes it, "capitalism" IS the default setting for exchange of goods and services and has been for far, far longer than a few hundred years. Until the invention of currency, it was accomplished through bartering, which still happens a lot, I'm sure. I'll give you a dozen goats for that SUV! Happens all the time. That's capitalism, at least as MB1 is describing it. Please correct me if I'm off here, MB1. That kind of interaction will ALWAYS exist, even under the most repressive of regimes.

@Nutagain: I get your point re. the thought experiment, and it has some value, but, believe me, you really don't want a gov't enforcing such a system. You really don't. The Soviets came close to doing this, and the results were not pretty. The fatal flaw in it is that it goes against bedrock biology of wanting to care for and support one's offspring. Who is the gov't to tell the hardworking emigrant who came to this country, built a business through heroic effort and sacrifice, that he can't pass it on to his children? Do you want that world? Really? Of course it will never happen. If you follow the idea to it's logical conclusion, it leads to a brutal, jack-booted regime none of us would want to live in.

Now, as question of individual choice, that's a different issue altogether. Two big, beautiful examples come to mind: Warren Buffet and Sting, the Police musician guy. Both made it clear to their kids that they were not going to inherit a great fortune. It was up to them to find their way in the world, albeit with a turbo-start: great schools, etc. I'm sure both men would not allow their children to starve, but the idea that their kids could lounge around and spend mountains of un-earned cash was not in the game. I don't know about Sting's kids, but I've heard interviews with at least one of the Buffet kids, and he's a great guy. So, you're idea has great merit but only as one of personal choice.

I have no idea of your personal wealth. You do have kids, I think? If so, is it your plan to leave them nothing after you die? Give all the money to some charity? No judgement here. Just curious.

BAd
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Oct 20, 2018 - 07:28am PT
How much does inheritance matter to the well being of a kid? When a parent dies at 80, the kids will be 50-55. Does getting an inheritance late in a career really affect the direction of ones life?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 20, 2018 - 08:14am PT
Dave...in some cases yeah...I have some trust funder friends who worked part time all their lives at entry level jobs and climbed the rest of the time...Another friend retired early when the inheritance came thru...He travels and recreates a lot nw...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Oct 20, 2018 - 12:20pm PT
Spot on, BAd, imo.

Dave....

How much does inheritance matter to the well being of a kid?

How much does winning the Publisher's Clearinghouse Sweepstakes matter to a 78yo lady?

It's not the right question. The right question is: Do we believe in genuine ownership, genuine property rights?

See, the left has evidenced to any reasonable person's satisfaction that they do not! For all their blather about "minimum" wages and how the worker OWNS his/her "capital" (cast as labor), they don't believe that ANYBODY else owns ANYTHING. It ALL belongs to "the State," so that "we the people" (qua communitarian collective) can (and should) "distribute" that "excess" wealth however "we" see fit.

But THIS nation was founded precisely and primarily to protect negative rights, among them life and a robust notion of property. And that bears exactly ZERO resemblance to what the left envisions.

Even a "minimum wage" is not genuine ownership! That's still just the "collective" saying to the lowest worker, "WE decide what your labor is worth, how much 'capital' it represents." And the net effect of such manipulation is ALWAYS to actually DEvalue that labor!

So, instead of asking (as if it's "our" place to assess it) whether an inheritance "makes any difference" to the recipient, you should be considering WHO actually owns the wealth an individual accumulates over the course of their life. WHY is it "acceptable" for such a person to gift it to various charities but not to their own family members???

Do you honestly believe that people OWN anything, or not?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 20, 2018 - 12:50pm PT
MB, you sayiní xCon isnít entitled to a cut of my black friendís money? I mean he was like totally entitled growing up a sharecropperís grandson in Bama, right? It doesnít matter that he kept his nose clean and edified hisself sos he could become a surgeon and support xConís life of indolence and self-indulgence, right?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Oct 20, 2018 - 12:58pm PT
^^^ LOL... yeah, that's what I'm saying.

As I said, though, I don't respond to xCon anymore. The blather is strong with that one.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Oct 20, 2018 - 10:00pm PT
fortunately we don't need either of you or your kind and most folks realize it

there is that saying "if you make peace impossible you make war enivitable"

and that's precisely what you are doing when you REFUSE to work with the legions of reasonable who only want a bigger cut in the value they produce

if your stance continues and you will only ensure your forced to deal with the folks I like the best and

after the way your kind has lived up to your side of the new deal and civil rights and reconstruction for that matter

your not going to be given another chance to 'settle' your recidivists case

the smart money is on 'no mercy'

the few of your kind who survive will be scatters so far to the wind that by the time any make it back we will have so much free sh#t for everyone

any fight you've left in ya will sputter and die
and if there any downside to wiping you f*#kers out

we will live with it...

Compelling prose.

I

can't

wait

;-0
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Oct 21, 2018 - 08:36am PT
Poppycock! Barter is not capitalism.

So, DMT has discovered a new word: Poppycock. So, he apparently thinks that "Barter is capitalism" is not just false but trivially false.

So, DMT, please tell us what you think is going on in capitalism that distinguishes it from barter. It should be trivial for you to do so, since equating them is trivially false.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 21, 2018 - 06:54pm PT
Is trivially false less false than regular false or should you use falsetto instead of trivially...?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Oct 21, 2018 - 08:05pm PT
^^^ Trivially false is tautologically false or logically false.

For DMT, the issue seems to come down to definitions, so I'm looking for what those definitions are that seem to make "barter is capitalism" false by definition.

I assert that the statement is not false by definition, in fact not false at all, because capitalism has been the basis of human trade and wealth-accumulation throughout human history.

But, supposedly this idea is trivially false, so it should be trivial to prove that it's trivially false. You know, poppycock.
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Dec 10, 2018 - 08:30am PT
Sexism explains gender pay gap? Errrr, nope.

https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/article/harvard-study-gender-pay-gap-explained-entirely-work-choices-men-and-women?fbclid=IwAR0aYI2JGuD_Q3eNr30-Nv9P-tWE-x96h88ykeaYsg7imIFwzB9AjszYasw

Other studies, too, regularly show that factors other than The Patriarchy explain pay differences. One of the most interesting was a MASSIVE Uber data set that showed men earned more because they drove faster and worked longer hours and more lucrative shifts.

BAd
Roger Brown

climber
Oceano, California
Jan 24, 2019 - 05:29pm PT
On my first paycheck since the tax cut, plus a $1.00 an hour pay raise, gave me $150.00 more take home for a 40 hour week compared to last year at this time. The tax cut worked for me. My daughter is a carpenter on the same job.

California Union Carpenters
Bob Thomas

Social climber
Canyon Country
Jan 24, 2019 - 08:25pm PT
Having no glimmer of an inheritance whatsoever it amuses me to see this as an issue. Hard work always trumps the gimme culture. Retiring with good benefits is where itís at nowadays.
Cheers
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jan 24, 2019 - 08:59pm PT
Hard work always trumps the gimme culture.

So far the gimme culture is winning. See the thread about a handful of people having more wealth than half of the world. All they know is gimme gimmee gimmee.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Jan 24, 2019 - 09:15pm PT
Retiring with good benefits is where itís at nowadays.

Unfortunately, it's mostly government employees who now enjoy "good" benefits post-retirement. We're devolving into an almost Neo-Confuscian state in this regard.

In fact, one place where Gary and I probably agree is on the need for private-sector unions to regain their former status as strong participants in a fair-wage economy. IMO, this is far preferable to government inserting itself into the role of paymaster.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jan 24, 2019 - 10:15pm PT
^^ Absolutely.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Jan 25, 2019 - 09:40am PT
I said "private-sector" unions. I have no patience for striking teachers, police, firefighters, bureaucrats who already make far more then the janitor or sales rep being taxed out of his/her home. Guilds or Professional Associations are better suited for the public sector.
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