Going Off Grid With The Sewer

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Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 6, 2017 - 03:19pm PT
I just learned that I have a seriously damaged sewer lateral that runs 50 feet under a city street (yes, it is the homeowners responsibility). A simple relining (12-15k) will not work. At least one hole will have to be opened on the street. The estimates range from 20K+ to 46k.

Someone jokingly said that pumping a port-a-potty would be cheaper. Then it dawned on me, go off grid. I already have solar. I am thinking I could buy a pair of composting toilets and build a big cistern to hold gray water for less than 20k. More eco-friendly and no more sewer charges.

Moral of the story - when buying a house spent 150 bucks to have a camera run down the sewer. I have owned for 30 years so that might not have helped me.

Comments on composting toilets and gray water processing to city code?

edit: looks like the first obstacle is kitchen sink water, not allowed on a gray water system.

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 6, 2017 - 03:31pm PT
Holy crap! Well, maybe not holy...

So that cost falls on you only for that lateral repair or is it shared by multiple property owners?

Your local sewage requirements/code would likely best be located through your town hall and building inspector but I'm going out on a limb guessing that portapotties and some gray water drain wouldn't cut it for a permanent solution. Here they require a permanent tie-in to public sewage or an approved septic system for a certificate of occupancy.

How much land and elevation from the house->outside terrain do you have? Enough for a properly constructed septic tank and fields?

Home ownership sucks... but it's not as bad as a boat.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Dec 6, 2017 - 03:38pm PT
I own an incinerating toilet.
Incinolet,American made and reliable as long as you have enough power.
I barely do and I live totally of grid.
If I were to put in a septic system ,it would cost over 30k.
A properly designed grey water system can work with a kitchen sink,just no solids and a grease trap.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2017 - 05:01pm PT
Nobody to share the cost with. No way I could but a septic system in, pretty urban here. The sewer line is good for gray water, but solids are going to clog it up quickly. What happened is the lateral sunk at the down connection to the main (city pipe) and separated, the down pipe is partially blocking the flow. I am seriously considering installing some type of toilet to eliminate the solid wastes and leave the water flowing to the sewer since it will not clog.

Home ownership sucks... but it's not as bad as a boat.

hahahaha, I have both, nobody is allowed to crap on the boat, luckily the dock is next door to the head (bathroom to you landlubbers)

clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Dec 6, 2017 - 05:05pm PT
Try other companies for bids and solutions.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 6, 2017 - 05:08pm PT
I had a new lateral run about 10 years ago for 4 large.
You need to shop around, there are some honest plumbers.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Dec 6, 2017 - 05:09pm PT
I saw a lot of different setups in Alaska. I had an Incinolet and it worked fine even if you were downwind. The compost toilets are more like science projects. They don't work well in the cold. It seems that local, county or state health regs will be your biggest concern but those don't concern some who do off-grid.

An interesting side note is that most people in homes with a sewer hookup are rarely concerned about what goes down the drain. If you have any other system you should be very aware of what goes where.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2017 - 05:14pm PT
I just got off the phone and have a guy coming this week to look at fixing the junction at the lateral and main, the expensive fix, he is talking 10k which is more reasonable. I still have to get the lateral relined, but I can do that off my own property so I have more options, like digging it up and opening it myself then subbing out the relining.

what is "4 large"

Kinda want to convert one toilet to a non-flushing, even if i have sewer. Sounds like the future, sort of like electric cars 25 years ago.

Thanks wilbeer and Wayno for the Incinolet reference. They look good except for the energy consumption. 1kW per flush is a big expensse, we have expensive power. I have solar but I barely break even right now.

Do you run a cycle every time you uses the Incinolet
Russ Walling

Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
Dec 6, 2017 - 06:09pm PT
Tell no-one from the City... that is looking for big dollar trouble. Just go get bunch of dog poop bags from PetsMart. Pinch in these and just leave them on a local trail or in a park like everyone else. They will never figure it out.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2017 - 06:15pm PT
Package it and deliver it, hell no Russ, I am all about cutting out the middleman

[Click to View YouTube Video]

but I doubt my tenant will be onboard for that solution, she complains when the garbage cans smell.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 6, 2017 - 06:15pm PT
I love the blue doggy bag approach...But the city is going to get suspicious when they find corn and peanuts in the bags...
WBraun

climber
Dec 6, 2017 - 06:26pm PT
They'll know you did it, brain rot, since you keep mentioning it ....
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 6, 2017 - 06:28pm PT
Yo Jon....Angela and I are off grid in Patagonia and we like it. A little extra work but you feel like you’re accomplishing something.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 6, 2017 - 06:34pm PT
I don't chomp corn...At least not on video...
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Dec 6, 2017 - 07:24pm PT
I guess that is Amazon's BMO now.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2017 - 07:57pm PT
What type of toilets do you have Jim?
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Dec 6, 2017 - 08:28pm PT
Man up - a mini excavator runs $300 / day, maybe throw in a saw for $100 to get through the street. Pipe and repair couplings are cheap. It's a 4 hr job for 2 pros, a full wknd for a noob.

Just the junction is ez, 10k sounds high, I wouldn't even think of replacing the full run unless there is confirmed damage to it.

Those guys with the camera are a-holes - cha-ching is all they want to hear from you. $46k for 50 ft of sewer is a joke. They get the balls to ask for that from people way too desperate to get their toilet back, don't be that customer. Good luck.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 6, 2017 - 08:57pm PT
Depends entirely on the local regulations. If you were to rent your own excavating equipment here and go digging up public utilities without the proper licenses/insurance/permits you'd find yourself in a much worse place really quickly.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2017 - 10:11pm PT
To quote a local A license contractor "Oceanside is really proud of their right of ways". I would be jack hammering and digging right now if it was allowed. It really is easy plumbing Maybe i could start Friday night and by the time code enforcement got wind of it I would be done. Life is not that simple, I am hostage to the system.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 6, 2017 - 11:08pm PT
What is the nature of the pipe and the damage? How was it discovered? Do you have a video?

I had a Tree root that infiltrated a cracked elbow and grew to about twenty feet or so with about a 4-6 inch diameter. The digging (in very rocky soil) was the hard part. Once the pipe was exposed and the pipe "incision" was made it was possible to pull the roots out and splice in a new elbow and segment.

The pipe is easily forty years old and still works well for it's intended purpose of letting the schitt and water run downhill

The guy who came out was a camera & $$ man. Funny how these affairs end up in court
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2017 - 11:20pm PT
Pipe is 60 years old, clay. We had a clog that I could not clear with my snake, I could not get past about 60 feet. Professionals came in, same result. Sent a camera in, we saw some small roots and some misalignment along the line at several places, probably due to settling. If the road was not there I would not think twice about digging the whole thing up.

Camera hit an obstruction at 61 feet too, so we decided to do the jet cleaning to try to clear out the pipe. Upon cleaning camera was sent in again and we discovered the obstruction at 61 feet was the lateral breaking at the 90 that dropped into the main sewer line. It probably broke because of settling because it was couple of inches low and we could see the side of the pipe it was previously connected to.

In spite of the partial blockage the sewer worked for years with occasional snaking by me. The straw that broke the camels back was a tenant that flushed a lot of baby wipes down the toilet. hopefully that has stopped and the sewer line will continue working until repaired.

No way to fixed the damage at 61 feet without digging, the rest of the damage can be fixed by relining. Hopefully it is done settling. After reading up about composting toilets I am very tempted to forego the repair and get composting toilets. Not sure how receptive my tenants would be to a radical change in that aspect of life.
nah000

climber
now/here
Dec 6, 2017 - 11:29pm PT
At least one hole will have to be opened on the street.

i'm assuming the street's paved?

and if it's paved i'm guessing your city has a list of indemnified/pre-screened contractors who are allowed to do the work? or can you hire whoever?

cause if it's similar to our situation then boy howdy it sucks to be the guy at the end of the [figurative and literal] line: every time we tear down an inner city house and build a new one, yyc requires us/the home owner to replace the mains connection to the tune of a $20k [admittedly canuckbuck] minimum charge [for both the work and all of the city fees for road and sidewalk repair that go along with it].

basically it typically costs us as much to tear down and dispose of an old house, and get a new hole excavated, as it does to do the requisite mains connection replacement.



ahhhhh... the joys of cities transferring the "burdens" of inner city living onto the urban dweller, while the new suburbs have their new schools paid for by tax payer doll hairs.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 7, 2017 - 12:00am PT
Ironic how things settle out. I'm quite sure that the earth moving was what cracked my pipe in the first place (about 15 feet from the wall of the house). I never thought to look closely at the far end where it connects to the main, since Light was evident at the end of the tunnel.

No problem I say. I'll just take a look at the video.

No (promised) video my camera man says .... We're arguing


After hearing your story, I suppose I'm fortunate


The folks across the street from my mom's house had a similar situation and after some extensive wrangling with the city got the city to bear the repair costs. I'll see if I can find out how from their daughter

One last point. I get solicitations to buy insurance to cover this sort of occurrence. They go right into the waste basket. I can see some dumpster diving on the horizon

Bruce Morris

Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
Dec 7, 2017 - 12:13am PT
Isn't there some kind of exorbitant insurance coverage you could have paid for against the contingency you're now facing? I seem to recall that when I lived in Belmont there was always a note in my mailbox soliciting insurance for that section of sewer pipe in front of the house that ran under the street.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 7, 2017 - 01:20am PT
You might want to check into a couple things.

I had a new sewer put in in 2014 that involved about 300’ of 12” sewer line and a manhole in the street.
I negotiated with the city and they covered all but $5k in the public right of way. They showed me their costs, and it was about $60k of work.
That included everything in the street and to the property line 1’ my side of the sidewalk. I paid for part of the cost for distance from the manhole to my property line, including a new driveway apron and sidewalk, as the new sewer went under my driveway.. ( the old sewer ran through the neighbor’s yard, which is no longer permitted, which is why the city had to run a new sewer main.)

the city used their contractors for all that work.

For the portion on my property , I found a company that used a hydraulic ram to push a rod through the ground and pull back the new 60’ sewer pipe from the property line.
This was not a re-lining of an existing sewer, but a whole new line.


They dug about a 2’x4’ hole 6’-8’ deep at each end to make the connections


They did the new sewer on my property in 2 days including all the concrete patching and some connections in my basement for about $12k. So my total cost came to about $17k. If I had the work done by somebody who did it with an open trench, the cost I got was almost twice that.

The ram is steerable. It will go around corners ( maybe 30’ radius turn) and is guided by a sort of metal detector thingy on the surface. They got to within an inch or two of perfect alignment laterally, and perfect for grade. The new sewer is one piece of semi-flexible polypropylene.


It’s not the first time I used these guys. Before I retired I had them do a gas feed, a new water service and two other sewers on jobs I ran. It’s much less disruptive than other methods, especially if the lines go under existing infrastructure.

Just before the year warrantee ran out I had the sewer scoped, and everything was ok.

One thing I did find out from the city is that no residences in city limits are legally habitable without a sewer hookup. You ought to check with your jurisdiction.

Crazy Bat

Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
Dec 7, 2017 - 04:38am PT
Have you checked to see if your homeowner's will cover it?
toejahm

Trad climber
Chatsworth, CA
Dec 7, 2017 - 06:06am PT
Lots of good advice here, especially Lorenzo's.
two reminders: 1. The governing jurisdiction may not allow going off grid or composting human waste. 2. Call Dig Alert even before digging on your own property. Many utilities have right always through private property and striking a fiber optics cable will make your sewer repair seem almost reasonable.
Peace,
Ken
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 7, 2017 - 06:38am PT
Jon...Maybe do the excavation yourself and hire a plumber for the rest...Still a bunch of miserable mind numbing work...Oh yeah...Dig alert and get a spotter for the mini-excavater...
hooblie

climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
Dec 7, 2017 - 07:01am PT
... 50 feet under a city street
my heart goes out to you, now that it has restarted ... i mistook your meaning on first pass ... so in my mind, things are looking up already!
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2017 - 07:06am PT
I am learning more than I ever wanted to know about sewers. Homeowners policies do not cover gradual wear and tear. If a meteor struck the sewer line and destroyed it then there would be coverage.

I read up about the system Lorenzo showed, it sounds better than the relining. I am relieved that the first estimate I got ($46k) was ridiculous, still going to cost me half of the that.

The sewer insurance policies are careful to only cover blockages, not breakage and settling. $8k cap too.

zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 7, 2017 - 07:51am PT
Thanks Jon and Lorenzo.

The sewer insurance policies are careful to only cover blockages, not breakage and settling. $8k cap too.

Kind of defeats the purpose, eh?

Nobody I know reads their insurance policies until after something happens. I guess it's time to start slogging through.

It sounds like two instances of the city working with homeowners exist.

JLP

Social climber
The internet
Dec 7, 2017 - 09:08am PT
Do the job right if it needs it. Nobody wants to buy nor live in a house with a messed up sewer line. No tenant is going to follow some new poop rule. You also have to disclose all this when you sell.

Your sewer probably moved 80% in the first 5-10 years after it was installed, it's probably been broken for a long, long time. Unless you can tell me about some major floods or show me a very large tree or something, this is how dirt settles. You may have just fixed your problem for another several years. Are you in a hurry?

A few roots here and there are no big deal. I live in a neighborhood similar age, clay pipe, main down the middle of the street or to one side. There are cuts through the street all up and down every block in the city where sewer lines have been replaced. Most of them unnecessarily, IMO, I've heard so many stories. Some root-x and a snake once a year has worked fine for me and many others around. Beware where you plant trees and consider removing ones too close.

If I were in your shoes, I'd go back to normal, snake it every year until you get a block again, then only replace the junction.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 7, 2017 - 09:40am PT
If I were in your shoes, I'd go back to normal, snake it every year until you get a block again, then only replace the junction.

The real estate industry is more and more requiring the sewer be scoped before closing, and repairs get taken off the sale price. You will pay for a new sewer eventually anyway, and they aren’t getting cheaper.

Here in the city limits, scoping and recertification of a sewer line has just been made mandatory at sale. Have your dvd ready.

Of the five or six houses sold in the last couple years right around me, three got new sewer lines.
( the neighborhood and my house are about 110 yrs old. Clay sewers don’t last forever)

My neighbor, whose property my sewer originally went through, paid for a re-lining at closing for her sewer when she sold shortly after my sewer went in.

The city engineers, btw, were very helpful and above board through the whole process, which took almost two years from when I first looked into it.
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Dec 7, 2017 - 09:50am PT
Hah, I initially read this as the connection being 50' deep, which I thought explained the price tag.

Lorenzo knows what he's talking about, thanks for the TR.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Dec 7, 2017 - 09:54am PT
You will pay for a new sewer eventually anyway, and they aren’t getting cheaper.
Good thoughts and maybe true - but this sewer is 60 yrs old to your 110.

Given OP's age [a guess] and likely cost of financing now vs paying cash out of equity at time of sale, and considering appreciation of house vs increase in labor costs, not sure you are presenting the better financial option.

I would make a decision more weighted to the present reality - which is reading to me to be a possibly functional sewer in no urgent nor certain need of repair.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
Dec 7, 2017 - 09:57am PT
Crazy that in some industries they can drill and install pipe 10,000 feet below the surface, turn corners, go horizontal, etc., but it's impossible to replace 50 feet of sewer line beneath a street without digging the whole thing up. I reckon it's economics- there is a lot more money in extracting oil & gas than replacing piping for poop!
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 7, 2017 - 10:11am PT
Given OP's age [a guess] and likely cost of financing now vs paying cash out of equity at time of sale, and considering appreciation of house vs increase in labor costs, not sure you are presenting the better financial option.

Possibly true. In my case I just cashed in some CDs. They weren’t yielding much anyway and matured on the investment ladder. I will eventually recoup. Property values in my neighborhood are skyrocketing since I live 20 blocks from center city. It’s also been declared a historic neighborhood, so all future work has to conform to historic guidelines.

My situation was that with the neighbor selling, the new owner could require me to remove the line on their property. The old owner offered me an easement, but that would have lowered property value for both our houses and didn’t seem an option. I would have been at the new owner’s mercy if they decided to build on the back portions ( which they are indeed doing. The guy is a real estate dude, and he bought because the property was a double lot.)

I in fact asked my old neighbor to tell the city she would NOT grant an easement as part of the negotiations over city cost.

And I would have been responsible for the neighbors property during any future repair, which seemed too messy to contemplate.

Everybody’s situation is different and sometimes more complicated than you first think.

The ram did, btw, have to avoid existing utilities and a decommissioned oil tank ( they punched right through it) the line itself did not go through the tank. They needed to start about 40’ back to get deep enough to get below footer depth. I have a full basement.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 7, 2017 - 10:48am PT
Crazy that in some industries they can drill and install pipe 10,000 feet below the surface, turn corners, go horizontal, etc.,

True... but even a 20 million dollar plain jane vertical drilling rig in nowhere Texas will burn ~15k/day.


Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2017 - 10:56am PT
Yes JLP, I think you are correct, this didn't just happen. I had a clogging issue 10 years ago, tenant flushing all sorts of goodies down. This time it was wads of baby wipes. Everyone got the memo so I think it will be fine.

For roots I discovered copper sulfate and rock salt. A regular diet flushed down late at night and allowed,to marinate for 12 hours will kill the roots. Funny that 4 months ago I cut down the source of the roots.


I abandoned the off grid idea but a am going to buy a composter to try it out.

As I typed this the 46k company called, had to resist telling him to FOAD
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Dec 7, 2017 - 12:49pm PT
I abandoned the off grid idea but a am going to buy a composter to try it out.
Dude - gross - those poor tenants are going to move, my wife would file for divorce. A flushing toilet is a fundamental and important part of modern civilization. Save crapping in a hole for camping. Those composting toilets are for the 3rd world, and they smell. You might also consider the unintended consequences of a lot less water flowing down that pipe to help clear things out on a regular basis.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 7, 2017 - 01:39pm PT
I go off the grid quite a lot. Adds considerable organic material to the soil and, because I use natural implements instead of toilet paper, i qualify for leave no trace status.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 7, 2017 - 02:00pm PT
I bet you don’t live 365 within 30’ of where you and your family act like cats every day.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2017 - 02:11pm PT
The selling point was the lack of smell. I need to see one in operation.

Does the Leave No Trace concept extend to skid marks?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 7, 2017 - 05:51pm PT
My cousin is a plumber for the city of Santa Monica...He's 7 foot tall and looks like Vlade Divac...His public works department installed a composting toilet ( litter box ) in one of its' facilities...
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Dec 7, 2017 - 08:19pm PT
Hi Jon
Lorenzo is correct; horizontal drilling is a good way to go and it is about $30 a lineal foot. It has become the cheap way to get a pipe in the street without repaving it. I design septic systems , gray water etc and sewers. A new way is to have a grinder pump and horizontally drill a shallow hole to the manhole ( if that is close enough ) you put 2 inch line so it is cheaper. A lot of people that have house below the street have to pump up like this. PM me if you want.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 7, 2017 - 08:22pm PT
2 inch line works for sewage..? rj
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 7, 2017 - 08:41pm PT
When the schitt comes down
-Mick Jagger

http://www.ci.cloquet.mn.us/vertical/Sites/%7B77C3A693-7604-40A4-BB25-DF2131FEB671%7D/uploads/%7BED6FB834-952D-46B5-9748-345D7BC023ED%7D.JPG
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 8, 2017 - 04:49pm PT

Dec 7, 2017 - 08:22pm PT
2 inch line works for sewage..? rj

It does if you have a sewage pump. Think sink waste disposer.

I was afraid the city was going to make me connect to a sewer uphill from my house and I would have to pump. It was the closer sewer.

That was part of the negotiations with the city. My initial cost would have been about 5k cheaper, and they wouldn’t have had to open the street for 300’. I asked them to list the sewers in my neighborhood that they required that For main floor sewage.

There were none. Plus, I was already connected to the downhill sewer. I figured I’d rather have a gravity system.

zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 8, 2017 - 07:57pm PT
A lot of mains were replaced in LaCrescenta not long ago.

I'd like to ask them how it was done and who has the liability if something goes (went) wrong.

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2017 - 08:13pm PT
I talked to the city and they said punch-throughs are no longer permitted, so pushing a new line to the manhole is out of the question. Got one guy to look at the job, he is going to get me a number. Found a guy who did some work for a friend of mine, but he got stuck in the Lilac fire out by Fallbrook, he is looking at it tomorrow. Good news is the the Right of Way permit is going to cost less than a grand.

I am going to fix the junction and leave the rest of the line until it becomes an issue. Everyone I talked to said that it will last for years.

A lot of mains were replaced in LaCrescenta not long ago.

I wish they would replace my main, but there are no plans, they just repaved the road this year.
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