OT: GOP tax plan calculator


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Robert L

Dec 6, 2017 - 09:19pm PT
So you would propose I send an equivalent amount of tax savings I get to continue to fund further tax cuts for the ultra wealthy and mega corporations that need tax breaks even less than I do and that I don't support? I have ZERO confidence that it would be used to help the people who need it.

This is your logic?

You wouldn't be funding their tax cuts. Those tax cuts cannot be funded. What they've done, is borrowed from everyone's grandkids future.

Just donate that $3k to a worthy non-political cause. Or to someone's grandkid.

There's no moral argument to 'donate' to the government's current largesse. Those who claim there is, are hopefully being nothing more than disingenous trolls.

Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
Dec 6, 2017 - 09:46pm PT
Robert L:

I already donate a significant chunk of money annually as well as volunteer my time. I am doing plenty to help others less fortunate. And let’s be clear, while I make a good amount of money and I am also married to another college educated professional, we don’t live some super crazy lifestyle.

On the scale of people who benefit from this “tax cut” I am still on the lower end. And that is what truly is mind boggling. If I can realize I don’t need this cut, what the hell is the rationalization for people who make even more than I do?

I’ll give you a clue, it’s not “How can I help others even more!”
Robert L

Dec 6, 2017 - 09:55pm PT
^^^ True.

I wonder, though not inferring that you subscribe: How much of, 'I won't pay more, because richer people won't pay more', is borne from envy in society?

Regardless of who pays, and who doesn't, good donations feed and educate kids. Holidays tend to do much less.

Grey Matter
Dec 6, 2017 - 11:02pm PT
Jody, I'm sorry your inability to understand is repeated again in this thread.
The rich are the income class which have benefited over the last 40 years. They do not need a tax cut. Their incomes are the only ones that have significantly risen. Most of the economic growth benefit in this country has gone to the rich. The rich do not need any help. Middle income wages have stagnated.

And income taxes are not the only tax.
What percent of Social Security taxes are paid by the top 4% of income? Answer: none. No tax is paid beyond the first $118,500 in 2016
What percent of taxes are paid on unearned income? Answer: little.
Why is this important? Social Security is not a standard pension. Half of it is a welfare and disability system, which redistributes money from the upper middle class to the lower income classes. The rich have exempted themselves from paying their share of this societal decision to take care of people. The only other people who get such a loophole are state(incl CHP)/county/local government employees. Everyone else has to pay even more to make up for the missing contributions from these loopholes.

What share of sales tax is paid by the rich, as a percent of their income?
Answer: Very little, sales taxes are highly regressive.

Fortune magazine: "The report found that America’s wealth inequality is even more gaping its income inequality. In fact, the report dubbed the U.S. the “Unequal States of America” due to the size of the gap."

Top 5% share of wealth went from 54% in 1989 to 63% in 2013.
and Top 5% share of income went from 29% in 1990 to 37% in 2013.

Median household income has not increased, despite GPD growth. In other words, the top capitalists have taken all of the gains. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States#/media/File:US_GDP_per_capita_vs_median_household_income.png

Out of 141 countries, the U.S. has the 4th-highest degree of wealth inequality in the world, trailing only Russia, Ukraine, and Lebanon
Go USA http://inequalityforall.com/fact-4/

In 1978, a 1 percenter earned 8 times a typical worker. In 2010 the ratio was up to 34 times. And that's before the massive equity wealth gains in the last 7 years.

For the first time in this report series, Allianz calculated each country’s wealth Gini coefficient—a measure of inequality in which 0 is perfect equality and 100 would mean perfect inequality, or one person owning all the wealth. It found that the U.S. had the most wealth inequality, with a score of 80.56, showing the most concentration of overall wealth in the hands of the proportionately fewest people.
USA most inequitable economy in the world according to

USA GINI index rose from 34.6 in 1979 to 41 in 2013. (and certainly higher now) https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SI.POV.GINI?locations=US

these stats can go on for pages. In fact we already had previous threads on this subject.

Only the ignorant and the crooks think the rich need a tax cut.


Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
Dec 7, 2017 - 07:09am PT
Great post Splater.
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Dec 7, 2017 - 08:16am PT
Splater! This is so right on. I've been really bothered by the Social Security cutoff for a long time. So the overwhelming majority of us who make less than the $116k/year pay to SS on 100% of our income for our entire earning lives. It seems that merely eliminating that loophole--and locking the SS fund away from grubbing legislators' hands--would solve that problem immediately.

the Fet

Dec 7, 2017 - 09:05am PT
You can't reason with someone who needs to believe a specific right wing or left wing ideology. They will always twist things around in their head so they can continue to believe what they need to believe.

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 7, 2017 - 09:13am PT
It seems that merely eliminating that loophole--and locking the SS fund away from grubbing legislators' hands--would solve that problem immediately.

Uh, if only it were that simple. My friends who are working with the acknowledged doyen of SS, Peter Diamond, on a major paper told me a few weeks ago that SS is fine, probably until 2025-2030. After that some ‘issues’ need to be addressed. Some of those could be tackled now but either that isn’t likely or we wouldn’t want to see the results.

yer welcome
Patrick Sawyer

Originally California, now Ireland
Dec 7, 2017 - 10:40am PT
I have worked and lived in France. Have you Reilly? Oh yes, you have lived and worked every place.

Reilly, it just appears by many of your posts that you are never wrong, that you know anybody who is everybody, and that you can skateboard down El Cap.

I wonder if you have ever said: "I was wrong." Or, "I made a mistake."

I have made a lot of mistakes in my life, I just only hope I have learned from them.

As the father (the late Phil Keane, a damn good man) of a previous love (Marie) told me when I said I made mistakes: "Patrick, a man who says he has never made a mistake, has never made anything."

Trad climber
Valles Marineris
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2017 - 11:37am PT
Talked to my accountant for my business last night and basically got the "you're screwed" speech unless things change in the final version of this bill.

Occupied Territory
Dec 7, 2017 - 11:55am PT
Class envy run amok.

Are any of you folks for a flat tax?

John M

Dec 7, 2017 - 12:03pm PT
Are any of you folks for a flat tax?

Nope.. because I believe that to whom much is given, much is required.

Occupied Territory
Dec 7, 2017 - 12:07pm PT
So anybody with money...it was just "given" to them? Nobody worked for their riches?

Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
Dec 7, 2017 - 12:09pm PT
Can you just stop with the third grade trolling? It's pathetic.

Occupied Territory
Dec 7, 2017 - 12:10pm PT
Maybe I should drop my posts to 2nd grade level so you could understand?
John M

Dec 7, 2017 - 12:16pm PT
Its a bible verse Jody.. no.. I do not mean literally "given" money. Its about talents and the ability to create more. If you are gifted with the ability to create big things, including businesses, then you have a greater responsibility what you do with that gift. Including earning money and what you do it.

I believe you know what I meant. You are just being contrary.

Occupied Territory
Dec 7, 2017 - 12:20pm PT
John, you are correct. But it is up to them what they do with it and they will answer for their generosity(or lack thereof). It is NOT up to the government to forcibly take from them and do what the government wants.

The Good Places
Dec 7, 2017 - 12:23pm PT
Jody, do you understand that it was up to Genghis Khan to "do with it what he pleased"? Do you think that these Alger-ian self made people got there because they have great morals?

Meh, forget the troll: Jody is not much of a historian apparently. I'm shocked.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Dec 7, 2017 - 12:24pm PT
According to this calculator, which is a blunt instrument of course, my taxes will go up.

I don't complain about my tax burden. Its mine and I shoulder it as best I can. I've been very fortunate to live in the place and time that I do, and blessed with some luck too.

With trillions of debt I don't think any of you or us or them are due any tax cut, at all. But that's just my opinion.


Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 8, 2017 - 11:49am PT
Paddy, I hope you realize how Trumpish you sound attacking the messenger rather than the message. I can’t help it if I’m usually right. It’s a burden, to be sure. Since I get most of my info from the LA Times, Reuters, BBC, and The Economist I don’t lose a lot of sleep over being right.

As for France, I would wager I’ve spent more time there than you in the last decade. I also spent a lot of time this summer with an American who has lived there for 35 years.

I make a real effort to cut you some slack but you don’t seem to play well with others. I gave you solid beta on yer Mt Rainer (sic) thread and at the end you called me a jerk. I put it down as more of the typical bad reading comprehension endemic here. Show me where I said anything about you in that thread.
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