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Child of the Abyss
climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 4, 2017 - 03:09pm PT
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I'm looking for a rappel device that provides adequate friction for rappelling on extremely slippery, skinny ropes (5mm). I have experimented with the Edelrid Microjul, the DMM Bugette, a mini figure-8 by Mammut, and a mini figure-8 by SMC. All of them provide just barely enough friction to work, but it is marginal.
I think there are some ultra-small tube-style devices that have been specialty-made. I think that Maxim used to sell one to firefighters to be paired with their 5.5mm tech cord, or something like that.
Anyone know of one? Bonus if it's actually available to consumers!
Thanks!
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Have you tried the DMM Pivot? I have not used it with 5mm, but it seems to grip 7mm cord quite well. Combined with a large radius biner - DMM recommends the Rhino, which I use. Also very nice for lowering.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Six biner rappel rig. Just add biners till you get the friction you need.
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couchmaster
climber
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I use the Bugette and love it (for ropes to 7.8mm). Are you using 1 or 2 carabiners? You might try 2 (if they are the same size) if you are using one as it will increase your friction. The bigger the diameter the better.
If that still doesn't do it, try going old school and use a single link from a chain. You may have to experiment to get the right size. Just make sure it's strong enough or back it up with some kind of a friction hitch or shunt type of device. You may or may not know this, but chain comes in differing grades. I think (going from memory you can look it up) that grade 70 is the stronger stuff.
But look that up first.
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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As above increase the number of biners with some form of stitch plate. The chain link idea is a good one if as the poster said...
S...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Why?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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I don't have direct experience with its use but the Petzl Pirana is supposed to be good with small diameter rope and has enough mass that the heat is dissipated well to avoid a melt through which would be my big concern on such a small diameter rope.
What are you trying to accomplish such that you have to use 5mm? Not much margin of anything there.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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The Pirana came up in conversation with Bill Hatcher on a recent climbing trip when discussing the skinny cord quandry.
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nah000
climber
now/here
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haven't used the following myself... but it sounds from this review like the sterling ats likely offers more friction than the pirana that grossman mentions above [and thanks for that suggestion as that was how i ended up finding the ats, as i'd never heard of the pirana nor the ats before today]...
the review mentions the writer is 200 pounds and it had enough friction for a single strand 6mm rap...
anyway, is an interesting question. i've used 5.5mm cord a few times for rapping and just used a reversino... but there are situations where a dedicated small diameter belay/rap device could come in handy.
let us know if you figure something out.
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mikeyschaefer
climber
Sport-o-land
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I've used a standard extended atc device and then a munter on the belay loop to rap 5.5 tech cord and that skinny black tech cord that i have. Remember that working reasonably well. Or two bugettes in a row would be really smooth.
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Child of the Abyss
climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2017 - 06:42pm PT
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Thanks for the replies so far.
I'm not really interested in a long carabiner-brake solution, because it is slow to rig if doing many rappels (and uses up a lot of carabiners).
The ATS might provide enough friction, maybe the Pirahna as well, although they both seem a bit heavy, which slightly negates the advantage of such a thin rappel rope. More importantly, I've never managed to make long rappels with figure-8 type devices without the rope getting at least somewhat twisted. Perhaps this is simply user error, and there is an easy trick to never twist the ropes, but I haven't been able to figure it out.
With a tube-style device, on the other hand, I can always rig it quickly and I never twist the ropes. I find the Bugette works pretty well down to 2 strands of 6mm (with 2 carabiners in that case), but even then it isn't as much friction as I would like. I've never tried using 3 fat carabiners, but I suppose it's worth a try.
I think the ideal would be something like a Bugette, but even smaller in dimensions, and ideally with V-slots for added friction. I've started brainstorming options for some sort of small piece of metal to use as a makeshift tube or sticht (spelling?) plate. The right size old-style hexentric might do the trick.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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I've used a Petzl Pirana a fair bit. Shines as a rappel device for wet, 10mm single strand rope.
I think it might be too "wide open" for a really small cord. That said, it does have a number of options to add friction.
This seem to work well on a smaller single strand:
http://www.bluugnome.com/cyn_how-to/gear/sqwurel/sqwurel.aspx
A munter in combo with an ATC type device (Reverso, etc) might work.
I've used an ATC with a 6mm Kevlar cord...helps to pitch it out on a sling then do a Z type rig for additional bends and friction.
Anyhoo...bad idea jeans! Ha ha.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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A Rock Exotica Mini 8 might work...
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Any stories about dulfersitz on paracord? That sounds like heinous body scarring, and specialized clothing required to avoid slicing yourself in half. Must be pretty desperate to go for it.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Like Mikey and others said, if you are not getting quite enough friction from one device, use 2 devices in series.
I know, this makes it slower to go on and off each rappel.
But it gives you options that work for more than one particular rope type or condition (wet/dry, etc.).
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Child of the Abyss
climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2017 - 09:11pm PT
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I think Mikey's double-Bugette in series idea sounds good. I'll try that, unless someone does find a mini, super-high-friction tube/plate.
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OlympicMtnBoy
climber
Seattle
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How about one of these:
Too bad it's only rated for keys.
If you haven't explored it, Gary Storrick's site is a treasure trove of ascending and descending gear and may provide some leads or design inspiration.
It does list the Bugette and Jul as the narrowest slots from his collection.
http://storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevicesPage/BelayDevices.shtml
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Put an extra wrap around the karabiner.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Use two devices in series, one extended with a short sling.
Also, you will die.
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Concerned citizen
Big Wall climber
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I think that a munter hitch would work, and I have very serious doubts about almost everything else. Some years ago I wanted to descend a fixed line (perhaps 6 mm) to the Hollow Flake, and the munter worked like a charm.
Another time I attempted a rappel on a 9 mm line and used what I thought would be an ample or excessive number of carabiner brakes. (I had used carabiner brake systems for many years, and most typically there was so much friction that I had to force the rope through.) I don't know if there was some adverse combination of carabiner sizes and shapes, and/or a surprise regarding the rope finish, and/or my misperception of the rock angle, but I could barely control my rappel.
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Johnny Utah 69
Sport climber
Salt Lake City
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Feb 27, 2019 - 07:46pm PT
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I know I'm a bit late to the party but Black Diamond just released an ATC Alpine which is just a skinny version of the regular ATC for skinny ropes.
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couchmaster
climber
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Feb 27, 2019 - 09:04pm PT
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I already said what would work. A single link of a piece of chain. Get the heat treated one. Simply use it like an ATC.
Ref: I think Mikey's double-Bugette in series idea sounds good. I'll try that, unless someone does find a mini, super-high-friction tube/plate.
I have a buggette, never thought to rig them in series. Good idea.
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Bob Harrington
climber
Bishop, California
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Feb 28, 2019 - 10:07am PT
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I haven’t used it on such a small diameter rope, but you might try a super-Munter. Basically a Munter hitch with an additional pass through the biner. Google it.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Feb 28, 2019 - 10:25am PT
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Just so we are all on the same wavelength the Super Munter has an extra wrap around the biner, the Monster Munter is basically one Munter over another, there are websites out there that don´t know the diffrence!
I´ve tested both and the Supe Munter gives around double the power of a single, the Monster Munter about five times the power. You can also double-up on the biners in a standard Munter for ca 35% more power, all the other combinations I haven´t bothered to measure!
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Scrubber
climber
Straight outta Squampton
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Feb 28, 2019 - 05:19pm PT
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Thanks for the information on the Super vs the Monster Munter hitch Jim. That is new to me.
A device worth considering for it's ability to add progressively higher levels of friction would be the Sterling ATS. Check out the video on their website. I have one, and the only thing I find it doesn't do well is operate as a lead belay device. It's too grabby for my liking.
https://sterlingrope.com/store/work/hardware/descent-control-rigging/ats
Works great for lowering, descending, and top-down auto-block style belay like a reverso.
K
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