Will Ryan be as bad a president as Trump? Or worse?

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Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 11, 2017 - 11:12am PT
NutAgain!, thanks for the thoughtful reply. A lot you and I agree on--in fact most of it. I guess it's just a matter of degrees, e.g. to what extent government should supplant and/or intercede re the market and personal wealth.

Re private property, there are certainly western roots that lie in Locke, The Enlightenment, Enclosure Acts, etc. And yes, the change was violent--but better than what was before, IMO. Still, we play the cards we're dealt today and are free to suffer varying degrees of guilt for the flaws of our ancestors. Despite my badgering, I certainly don't think your property ownership is worthy of any guilt. It sounds beautiful. As long as the individual down below can aspire and work toward the same, I'm good too. (And yes, please shoot down his drone. I recommend 20ga w/#6 steel shot.)

It's a tough balancing act. Wealth is generated through three basic mechanisms: Wages, profits, and rents. While capitalism embraces all three, socialism seems uncomfortable, at a minimum, with the latter two. And that's a big problem from my perspective. Even where I disagree with you in scale, I may concede that capitalism must, from time to time, be protected from itself. Teddy Roosevelt knew this.

Anyway, refreshing to hear a self-described liberal also express support for capitalism. It's getting harder and harder to do.


Edit: I'm no Peter Singer fan, but we share a common meta-view of capitalism. Here's one of his quotes:

Capitalism is very far from a perfect system, but so far we have yet to find anything that clearly does a better job of meeting human needs than a regulated capitalist economy coupled with a welfare and health care system that meets the basic needs of those who do not thrive in the capitalist economy... If we ever do find a better system, I'll be happy to call myself an anti-capitalist.
John M

climber
Dec 11, 2017 - 11:25am PT
Most liberals believe in capitalism. what we have trouble with are people who believe that capitalism means that the market should control everything. Free market is a misnomer. It should be a regulated market. I refer back to your quote..

regulated capitalist economy
the bold is mine.
xCon

Social climber
909
Dec 11, 2017 - 05:06pm PT
Rebel Honduran police ignore curfew order, election protesters rejoice
even our OAS stooges wont agree with the rigged results that were announced

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-honduras-election/rebel-honduran-police-ignore-curfew-order-election-protesters-rejoice-idUSKBN1DX0X7



fortunately for the American dictator holding out against fair elections he was able to call in the "special" police America spent some hundred million dollars training to take on drug smugglers to beat the protestors and tear gas the homes where people were banging pots and pans in protest



https://theintercept.com/2017/12/03/the-president-of-honduras-is-deploying-u-s-trained-forces-against-election-protesters/
frostback

Social climber
great white north
Dec 11, 2017 - 05:50pm PT
Lit,
Reasonable reply.
Regarding your comments that socialists have problems with profit and rent. I would say that pure economic rent is something that a good deal of competitive capitalists also have a problem with. Regarding profits and definition of reasonable returns, agreed lots of differing opinions, but a common thread regardless of the IRR is whether inputs reflect true societal cost.....
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 11, 2017 - 07:47pm PT
Barry Schwartz and Kwame Appiah have written about this. Schwartz is especially convincing in The Costs of Living. Not sure how you quantify the social fabric such that it would ever appear as a billable externality. Especially versus the jobs and dignity that businesses produce. IMO he fails to explain this. In any event, tampering with the status quo too much, too fast is courting disaster--and maybe even bloodshed.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Dec 15, 2017 - 09:01am PT
From an article today
https://www.npr.org/2017/12/15/570868360/after-months-of-withering-criticism-trump-prepares-to-visit-fbi
"I don't want to talk about pardons with Michael Flynn — yet," Trump said. "We'll see what happens. Let's see."

That itself sounds like obstruction of justice to me. It is an attempt to make a person’s freedom depend on not implicating Trump. Inducing another to not disclose information to obstruct justice.
xCon

Social climber
909
Dec 15, 2017 - 09:12am PT
how could you be pardoned if you havnt been convicted?
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 15, 2017 - 11:11am PT
Obstruction of justice--for collusion that never took place.

Desperate.

Moveon.

Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Dec 15, 2017 - 11:35am PT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 15, 2017 - 12:01pm PT
Wealth is generated through three basic mechanisms: Wages, profits, and rents.

Actually the three mechanisms are labor, land and capital. Interestingly, labor creates capital, capital does not create labor.

Some Republican president agreed with that:
Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=29502

It's also interesting to note that when it comes to standards of living European social democracies lead the list, the capitalist paradise comes in at #18.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/quality-of-life-full-list
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Dec 15, 2017 - 12:16pm PT
yes, no collusion ever took place between the Russians and members of the Trump team

Denial, it's not just a river in Egypt

close your eyes and stamp your feet three times, there was no collusion, there was no collusion
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 15, 2017 - 01:14pm PT
Just pointing out an inconsistency in your basic mode of attack:

close your eyes and stamp your feet three times, there was no collusion, there was no collusion

Close your eyes and stamp your feet three times, HRC's email server was nothing criminal, nothing criminal, nothing criminal....

Whatever interpreted "rush to judgment" you condemn the Right about regarding Hillary's server is the very M.O. of the Left regarding the supposed collusion.

Of course, it goes without saying that those of you seeing collusion are going to see collusion. Most of the rest of us are suspending judgment until all the facts see the light of day.

But stark contrast, what HRC ADMITTED about her email server was flatly and obviously in violate of the relevant statutes (I've posted on other threads tabular comparisons of what the statutes say and what HRC admits). No "interpretation" is necessary, and "intent" appears nowhere in the statutes. And Comey even threaded the verbiage needle by carefully saying phrases like, "Extremely irresponsible" instead of its linguistic equivalent that appears in one felony statute: "Gross negligence."

Let's see: "gross" = "extreme," and "negligence" = "irresponsibility".

Oh, and the DNC's manipulation of the election, THEIR collusion with the Russians, and CNN's collusion with HRC... you have NOTHING to say about that sort of crap. That's all good, and "nothing to see here; move along."

If you're going to issue such confident pre-indictment judgments, at least you should apply consistent modes of evidence-evaluation. Partisan-motivated rushes to judgment never do that, of course.

How about this compromise? Both HRC AND Trump for prison? How about that as a fair and just compromise?

Carry on.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 15, 2017 - 01:40pm PT
A year into this so-called investigation and nada re collusion. Let’s see some facts—or shut er down.

What’s coming to light is even more terrifying—that the FBI and other US intel agencies appear to have taken sides in an election and then used a known-fake dossier to get warrants from a judge. When you hear libs and assorted DC elites harping on about how stupid the electorate is, well, you have to wonder just how committed to democracy these folks really are. Sounds more like “we know best.”
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 15, 2017 - 01:44pm PT
Gary, you are correct. I misspoke and should have said “income.” As far as living standards, well, not worth much eg GINI garbage in garbage out. I’ll take personal liberty and economic freedom over security.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Dec 15, 2017 - 01:52pm PT
Sean Hannity's troll farm is on point today!
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Dec 15, 2017 - 01:56pm PT
How about this compromise? Both HRC AND Trump for prison? How about that as a fair and just compromise?

And while we are at it let's toss Congress and their corporate overlords in there with them.

Credit: T Hocking
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Dec 15, 2017 - 02:37pm PT
Trump vs Talking Heads - Swedemason

Doesn't look like Trump, needs a big gut & ass.
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Dec 15, 2017 - 02:47pm PT
What’s coming to light is even more terrifying—that the FBI and other US intel agencies appear to have taken sides in an election


Hey Lituya, you and I finally agree on something!


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/03/fbi-leaks-hillary-clinton-james-comey-donald-trump


https://democrats-judiciary.house.gov/sites/democrats.judiciary.house.gov/files/documents/Letter%20to%20AG%20and%20DAG%20-%20Dec%2011.pdf
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 15, 2017 - 04:06pm PT
I’ll take personal liberty and economic freedom over security.

Lituya, I'd wager when it comes to personal liberty and economic liberty the socialists have it all over us. The commie pinkos win again:


http://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobility/
moosedrool

climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
Dec 15, 2017 - 04:47pm PT
Lituya, you are very confused.

LMAO!

Moose

Edit: Why did you delete your post? Did you get it?

Good for you!

Now make a post criticizing the other countries. I’m sure you can make something up.
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