Bears ears to be cut by 80%

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Keith Reed

climber
Johnson county TX
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 30, 2017 - 10:12am PT
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900004847/report-president-trump-will-cut-bears-ears-by-85-percent.html



thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 30, 2017 - 10:23am PT
can a brother get a map?

the fixed anchor ban kinda keeps the riffraff out and all, but....America just iznt America if a man can't drive wherever his entropy wagon will take him.


a thought:
These leaders first come to power through democratic elections and subsequently harness widespread discontent to gradually undermine institutional constraints on their rule, marginalize the opposition, and erode civil society.
-Kendall-Taylor and Frantz
xCon

Social climber
909
Nov 30, 2017 - 10:30am PT
Credit: xCon
couchmaster

climber
Nov 30, 2017 - 11:07am PT

"Bears Ears would be cut from 1.35 million acres to 201,397 acres, and Grand Staircase from nearly 1.9 million acres to 997,490 acres, according to the report."

"According to Hatch, Trump had promised him he would open the Grand Staircase monument to coal mining, which would require removal at least parts of the Kaiparowits Plateau, which contains one of the nation’s largest coal deposits."

Map to follow later.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 30, 2017 - 11:29am PT
shit man them's tar sands in that canyonlands too, and real shallow. more than a whole ayrabia's worth just gotta tear out that Wingate overburden. we got plenny of water in the Coloradee for to mine it all.


good jobs too


to the tune of:
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Nov 30, 2017 - 12:46pm PT
Expect a lawsuit. Trump doesn't have any legal authority to alter designations. The relevant piece of legislation, the Antiquities Act of 1906, only gives the president the authority to "designate" monuments. It does not grant any authority to alter or reduce prior designations. Not that this president or the current crop of Republicans care. It is clear that they believe the Judicial branch, though an equal branch of government, should be subservient to the Executive and Legislative branches, hence their current plan to stack the courts with unqualified, republican tools recommended by the Federalist Society.
Don Paul

Mountain climber
Denver CO
Nov 30, 2017 - 01:30pm PT
^ fatdad with all respect, I am doubtful of that legal argument. It's something that could be researched, but it seems to me that the power to designate is the power to un-designate. Presidents often overrule the executive orders of the previous president, and make a show of it.

I went to both of these places in the last year or so. I wouldn't go back to Bears Ears, but Escalante / Grand Staircase is an incredible wilderness you should visit before it gets developed.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Nov 30, 2017 - 01:55pm PT
Don, there was an interesting law review article that discussed the issue (103 Virginia Law Review Online 55(2017)). There have been cases in the fed courts, including the U.S. Supreme Court, challenging the establishment of monuments and parks, where the court sided with the broad, creation language of the Act. I understand that good attorneys can gain traction with all kinds of interesting arguments, but there appears to be no precedent for what Trump is proposing.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Nov 30, 2017 - 03:46pm PT
???


v v v v
bit'er ol' guy

climber
the past
Nov 30, 2017 - 03:49pm PT
just another turd-in-a-bag thread
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Nov 30, 2017 - 03:57pm PT
It won't happen. . .at least for a good while.
It will be tied up in court for a good long time, maybe going
all the way to the Supreme Court to decide the issue.
Get your popcorn. . .
cornel

climber
Lake Tahoe, Nevada
Nov 30, 2017 - 04:08pm PT
Just more playing to his ever shrinking base. The Insane Clown President... anointed leader of the Black Cavalry of American Commerce.. hopefully The Environmental Defense Fund is up to the task
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Nov 30, 2017 - 05:28pm PT
Not worried about the threat to cut. Lawsuits will be filed. Twimpy is just stirring sh#t up.


Focus on the real deal, tax cuts for the ultra wealthy and S-corps to the detriment of the national debt which will require the next administration (not likely GOP) to have to raise taxes and look like the bad guy for all prior administrations that have been spending willy and wildly!
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Nov 30, 2017 - 09:26pm PT
maps here. https://wilderness.org/resource/maps-boundary-modifications-bears-ears-and-grand-staircase-escalante-national-monuments

The black outline is current, the hatched area is the leaked proposed plan, apparently it has been revised since the leak.
Jody

climber
Occupied Territory
Dec 1, 2017 - 06:44am PT
Might as well make the entire country a monument. The acreage involved was major overkill.

Obama setting aside millions of acres as he did adversely affected far more people than Trump cutting the acreage down a bit will.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Dec 1, 2017 - 07:44am PT
Bear's Ears was actually pretty close in size to the Public Lands Initiative proposal that was created by by Utah GOP representatives.

https://medium.com/westwise/in-defense-of-bears-ears-national-monument-eb896127ded0

Bears Ears specifically excluded some potential uranium mining areas.
Basically this is largely being done because some on the far right didn't like anything that Obama did, and now want to undo it.
Climberdude

Trad climber
Clovis, CA
Dec 1, 2017 - 07:48am PT
^^^^ Yes, it seems that some in the right wing have a list of every action that Obama took that they want to reverse. This is not going to happen. Lawsuits will stop this and if there is any action, there will be mass occupations and lockdowns to stop any action. The Dump admin is so full of shit!
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Dec 1, 2017 - 09:55am PT
And Jody, seems to me I recall you being a pretty good photographer, and that I really liked some of your photos of the east side of the Sierras. How would you feel if there was a bunch of oil and gas rigs, and perhaps an open pit mine or two that popped up in some of those?
bobinc

Trad climber
Portland, Or
Dec 1, 2017 - 10:03am PT
Mungeclimber for the win. The tax shell game Repubs now breathlessly ramming through will create even more red ink but will conveniently be left to the next Demo majority to fix. Always nice to know grownups will arrive to clean up after you...
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Dec 1, 2017 - 01:44pm PT
Basically this is largely being done because some on the far right didn't like anything that Obama did, and now want to undo it.
Exactly. While the right was referred to as the "party of no" during the Obama presidency because of their constant opposition to any democrat-sponsored piece of legislation, etc., it has since become pretty clear they have no agenda other than opposing or, now, undoing anything touched by Obama, regardless of its merit or benefit to the American public.

I also agree with munge. There has been so much distraction created by Trump's inane tweets and statements that it has diverted a good many away from the destruction to environmental regulations, the EPA, and now the tax code. We now have a government of the rich, by the rich and for the rich.
Don Paul

Mountain climber
Denver CO
Dec 1, 2017 - 07:39pm PT
Fatdad, thanks for looking up the citation for me to the UVA Law Review Article. Presidents Lack the Authority to Abolish or Diminish National Monuments It's an extremely archaic subject and maybe the author is right.

Here's the Congressional Research Service analysis, that suggests it's really an open question that could go either way:

No President has ever abolished or revoked a national monument proclamation, so the existence or scope of any such authority has
not been tested in courts. However, some legal analyses since at least the 1930s have concluded that the Antiquities Act, by its terms, does not authorize the President to repeal proclamations, and that the President also lacks implied authority to do so. Under this view, once a President has applied the Antiquities Act to protect objects of historic or scientific interest, only Congress can undo that protection. On the other hand, Presidents have deleted acres from national monuments, proclaiming that the deleted acres do not meet the Antiquities Act’s standard that the protected area be the “smallest area compatible with the proper care and management of the objects to be protected.”

I would be particularly concerned about the "smallest area" language noted by CRS:

After their establishment by a President, national monuments often have been expanded or reduced over time by subsequent Presidents, or within the same administration. For example, Bandelier National Monument in New Mexico was established by President Woodrow Wilson in 1916 and was later expanded by Presidents Herbert Hoover and Dwight Eisenhower. President John F. Kennedy later issued a proclamation adding 2,882 acres and removing 3,925 other acres from the monument. President Kennedy cited the Antiquities Act as authority, declaring that “it appears that it would be in the public interest to add [the 2,882-acres] to the Bandelier National Monument because they possess unusual scenic character together with geologic and topographic features, the preservation of which would implement the purposes of such monument,” and that “it appears that it would be in the public interest to exclude from the detached Otowi section of the monument approximately 3,925 acres of land containing limited archeological values which have been fully researched and are not needed to complete the interpretive story of the Bandelier National Monument....” As another example, the former Mount Olympus National Monument was diminished in acreage three times after its establishment—including once by nearly half—before it was ultimately redesignated by Congress as a national park in 1938.

Antiquities Act authority to add new acres to national monuments appears analogous to the authority to create monuments in the first place; however, diminishment of national monuments potentially may raise distinct issues. While the Antiquities Act does not expressly address changes in the size of national monuments, it does contain a provision governing monument size: reservations of land for monuments “shall be confined to the smallest area compatible with the proper care and management of the objects to be protected.” At least one analyst has contended that the same logic cited above against presidential abolishment of national monuments should also prohibit presidential modification of national monuments to diminish their size. However, the 1938 Attorney General opinion discussed above contemplates reduction of monuments in size pursuant to the “smallest area” language:

While the President from time to time has diminished the area of national monuments established under the Antiquities Act by removing or excluding lands therefrom, under that part of the act which provides that the limits of the monuments “in all cases shall be confined to the smallest area compatible with the proper care and management of the objects to be protected,” it does not follow from his power so to confine that area that he has the power to abolish a monument entirely.

Thus, despite some potential ambiguity in the phrasing of the Antiquities Act, there is precedent for Presidents to reduce the size of national monuments by proclamation. Such actions are presumably based on the determination that the areas to be excluded represent the President’s judgment as to “the smallest area compatible with the proper care and management of the objects to be protected.” It remains undetermined whether removal of a high enough proportion of a monument’s acreage could be viewed as effectively amounting to an abolishment of the monument.

That reminds me. Someone was posting on another thread about his archeological trips to Bears Ears. One good argument would be to find sites that are in the areas to be eliminated, and point them out as among the "objects to be protected." In the Bandelier case, JFK eliminated parts that had already been studied and did not contribute to the overall narrative. So, more or less, the case has to be made for the value of the areas to be eliminated.
Jody

climber
Occupied Territory
Dec 2, 2017 - 01:33pm PT
SteveP...I am not concerned about it because it won't happen. It isn't going to happen in the scenic areas of Bear's Ears either. In fact, I doubt if any of you notice any changes in the areas you are likely to frequent.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Dec 2, 2017 - 02:05pm PT
Obama setting aside millions of acres as he did adversely affected far more people than Trump cutting the acreage down a bit will.

more talk radio/faux news spiel.
Jody

climber
Occupied Territory
Dec 2, 2017 - 02:11pm PT
I don't listen to talk radio and I don't watch Fox News...try again. Just common sense at work, something you can't relate to.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 2, 2017 - 05:58pm PT
Jody prognosticating on the future of strangers. love it. make sure to shake up the magic eightball every now and then dude.

this is my turf not yours Jody, so I suppose your ass may be your hat
Krease

Gym climber
the inferno
Dec 2, 2017 - 06:09pm PT
why is Donald drumpf such a stupid piece of shyt? why is ryan zinke the head of the department of the interior. how many petitions were sent to this oil and mining shill begging him to reconsider the designation of bear's ears? these people, along with that fuk scott Pruitt, are environmental marauders who need to be kicked out on their a55es.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 2, 2017 - 06:21pm PT
Krease...don't worry ...they'll end up like that kook Watts....Gone and forgotten...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 2, 2017 - 08:13pm PT
how many petitions were sent

Don't worry, they are not wasted. They will be the basis of enhanced IRS scrutiny and deletion from voting roles. Thanks for the information.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Dec 2, 2017 - 11:08pm PT
Trump had promised him he would open the Grand Staircase monument to coal mining.


Trump is the Steampunk President.

He'll be frothing for hydrogen gas dirigibles pretty soon. And also diesel submarines.
maddog69

Trad climber
CO
Dec 3, 2017 - 08:18am PT
Rob Bishop introduced HR 3990 two months ago. It could pass before the end of year but IT WILL PASS.


The bill rewrites the Antiquities Act to remove any of the legal roadbloacks to elimination of public lands as mentioned in this thread.


One likely big picture pathway is that they will centralize all public federal lands and start reducing them. Generally using as a template the centralization of federal law enforcement they accomplished under Bush with the creation of DHS.


In any case the legal arguements are moot - They own the three branches so they can do whatever they want.


The greatest (and imho the darkest) sea shift in American political history occured when Trump got elected and they retained control of congress: It is naive to pretend otherwise.

The Internationally financed Republicans won kids, unequivocally and irreversibly. Protests mean nothing, other than if you participate you will get flagged into the security monitoring system. (They really, really, really don`t care if you tele . . .)


These interests have been fighting since watergate to get to this point, it is a long complex dynamic but the bottom line is they are not going to soften, cave, relent or yield their power anytime soon.

c wilmot

climber
Dec 3, 2017 - 09:13am PT
They have actually been fighting for this since FDR was forced to throw some scraps at the masses with his implementation of the new deal programs

The violent mass protests that led to such actions during the Great Depression have largely been scrubbed from public record...

This is quite bi partisan- it's why obama kept adding monuments even after trump had been elected

The whole right vs left is just silly theatre to distract an increasingly gullible public into thinking you have some form of control- you don't. And you never will

maddog69

Trad climber
CO
Dec 3, 2017 - 09:43am PT
When I reference Watergate my intention was to highlight that it is in many case the very same actual people who have been pursuing these agenda frameworks.

Fox News, for example, was originally going to be the White House official press network run from the Oval Office - Roger Ailles was on Nixon's commo team.


Donald Trump, in another example, was the funding source who bought the first arms shipments delivered to the (currently still in power) Iraninan Islamic revolutionaries, paying them in arms so that they would not release American hostages while a Democrat was President, thus sabotaging an election and kick starting the Iran Contra scandals..


My point being that in some aspects this is not about historical left vs right ideology. (The public land uses they are radicalizing here, for extraction industry and cattle grazing, are flat-out socialism under their rules.) In other words they are proudly discconnected from any morally or ethically bound historical timelines. This is about obsessions with power, abject greeed and hatred for anyone who has ever stood in their way.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 3, 2017 - 02:48pm PT
The humble pit toilet shall now be called "The Zinke"

Humboldt Environmentalists Hold Unofficial Ceremony to Rename Vault Toilets After Trump’s Secretary of the Interior Ryan Zinke, Encourage Public to Take a ‘Stinky Zinke’ In His Honor

https://lostcoastoutpost.com/2017/sep/30/humboldt-environmentalists-hold-unofficial-ceremon/

stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Dec 3, 2017 - 03:10pm PT
Jody
SteveP...I am not concerned about it because it won't happen. It isn't going to happen in the scenic areas of Bear's Ears either. In fact, I doubt if any of you notice any changes in the areas you are likely to frequent.

Well, I was down in the Dead Horse Point area outside of Moab two months ago. The number of rigs there has certainly multiplied. Including some lit up at night interfering with photos I wanted to shoot. I wouldn't frankly be all that surprised to see some of that creep into the Bear's Ears area.

And the Kaiparowits Plateau in GSNM has been a major target for coal mining. That is one of the reasons it was protected in the first place. And you're right, at the current price and technology level for coal mining, it probably won't be developed. But if that's the case, why not leave the monument the way it is instead of promising extractive industry jobs?
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 3, 2017 - 07:15pm PT
SL tribune.  no kaiparowitz coal!
SL tribune. no kaiparowitz coal!
Credit: thebravecowboy
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Dec 3, 2017 - 08:39pm PT
In other words they are proudly discconnected from any morally or ethically bound historical timelines. This is about obsessions with power, abject greeed and hatred for anyone who has ever stood in their way.

Fortunately such ideological paradigms ultimately do not succeed; The current manifestation is skating on extremely thin ice.
Keith Reed

climber
Johnson county TX
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2017 - 06:41am PT
It seems like it’s simple asset stripping from the American people.

If it was so valuable before then why had no one developed the oil/gas/other assets before?
Remoteness, lack of industrial quantities of water, not recoverable at market price? All of this I suspect.

Why should we sell it for developers at low to record low (for coal) prices ?

How have the above problems been avoided?

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 4, 2017 - 07:22am PT
Native Americans not happy with the orange sh1t gibbon . The Guardian used a picture of Bridger Jack and North Sixshooter, the caption calls it "Anasazi Family rock formations


[url="//https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/dec/04/native-american-alliance-bears-ears-trump?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+USA+-+Collections+2017&utm_term=255186&subid=19637531&CMP=GT_US_collection"]//https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/dec/04/native-american-alliance-bears-ears-trump?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+USA+-+Collections+2017&utm_term=255186&subid=19637531&CMP=GT_US_collection[/url]
Mike Friedrichs

Sport climber
City of Salt
Dec 4, 2017 - 07:37am PT


Robbie stole the show at the protest on Saturday. What an inspiring little kid!
Jody

climber
Occupied Territory
Dec 4, 2017 - 08:54am PT
What's wrong with public/congressional input/environmental reviews BEFORE establishing these huge monuments?
Jody

climber
Occupied Territory
Dec 4, 2017 - 08:54am PT
From outsideonline:
"Theodore Roosevelt signed the Antiquities Act in 1906 to help protect Native American sites from looting. The act gives the president the power to declare structures, landmarks, and places “of historic or scientific interest that are situated upon the lands owned or controlled by the Government of the United States” national monuments. Because doing so requires no congressional consensus, public input, or environmental review, it’s essentially a quick and easy way to protect large swaths of land instead of obtaining congressional approval to create a national park, which can be very difficult."

It would appear to me that the purpose of the AA of 1906 was to be able to protect specific, significant areas, not huge swaths of land. I think that Obama using this for huge swaths of land is going to eventually backfire for the environmentalists as it as it will likely result in the severe scaling back of use of the AA. It will probably result in a narrow definition of the AA and will actually reduce the use of the AA in the future.

Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Dec 4, 2017 - 09:50am PT
What's wrong with public/congressional input/environmental reviews BEFORE establishing these huge monuments?
Yeah, nice try. You know (or should know) the answer to your question. Congressional republicans will never agree to any environmental proposal offered up by the democrats. The republicans have gone from the party of TR (and even Nixon, who created the Endangered Species Act, Clean Water Act, etc.) to the party that only sees the environment as a source of exploitation.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Dec 4, 2017 - 11:24am PT
What's wrong with public/congressional input/environmental reviews BEFORE establishing these huge monuments?

Nothing. And at least in the case of Bear's Ears, there were extensive ones done. Look at the link I provided above. Bear's Ears is pretty close to the Public Lands Initiative proposed by members of Utah's congressional delegation. Only when the GOP wouldn't bring that up for a vote did Obama decide to act.
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Dec 4, 2017 - 12:11pm PT
Lovely, as climbing continues to expand in user numbers we’re crowded out of formerly quiet areas, but still don’t have enough clout to actually accomplish anything.

All of the negatives of growth with none of the benefits.
Krease

Gym climber
the inferno
Dec 4, 2017 - 01:40pm PT
It seems like the republicans have become a parody of what they used to represent. That, or just flat out, semi-comically evil. Of course, drumpf is THEIR candidate, so I guess there's that. When did they go so tragically wrong?
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 4, 2017 - 05:26pm PT
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/navajo-nation-says-trump-never-discussed-bears-ears-with-them/ar-BBGdJBo

Way to go...I'm sure tRump's Pocahontas crack showed him for the shallow POS he has always been.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 4, 2017 - 05:35pm PT
Jody: Conservatives aginst conservation!!!! walking contradiction
Jody

climber
Occupied Territory
Dec 4, 2017 - 05:39pm PT
^^^^^^

Wrong. I am all for reasonable conservation. I am NOT for wanton PRESERVATION at all costs.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Dec 4, 2017 - 05:42pm PT
What's done can be undone. Like most of what's happening in these darkest of days.
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Dec 4, 2017 - 05:46pm PT
^^of course one has to wonder how many one of a kind artifacts will be destroyed or stolen by the local stewards(Local control!) in the mean time.

Of course since it’s not destroying James’ legacy I’m sure Jody’s ok with it as the price of freedumb.
Jody

climber
Occupied Territory
Dec 4, 2017 - 05:49pm PT
Land with actual artifacts are STILL protected in the monument.

So trashman, in your view, the federal government is the only entity capable of taking care of areas like this?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 4, 2017 - 05:50pm PT
What can't be undone is the sale of mineral rights.
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Dec 4, 2017 - 05:52pm PT
Not all of them, check the maps, plenty of sites left out. The locals wouldn’t be so excited if they couldn’t go back to plundering.
Jody

climber
Occupied Territory
Dec 4, 2017 - 05:53pm PT
I think the protectionists are not happy unless ALL land is protected from any sort of use besides light recreation. Where would we get the materials necessary for the things we use in everyday life?
xCon

Social climber
909
Dec 4, 2017 - 05:56pm PT
at the VERY LEAST we could stop dragging em out from under the natives...


as bushes interior secretary said...

"enjoyment of the parks has suffered as preservation has been promoted"
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Dec 4, 2017 - 05:57pm PT
Maybe an artificial shortage of said materials would spur some innovation.

You know, like an artificial shortage of resources encourages those lazy welfare types to get jobs.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 4, 2017 - 06:27pm PT
some of us values aquifers over artifacts Jody. but i suppose you are a practical man, concerned with selfpreservation in the here and now. I suggest you take a swig of this job making artesian water, the futuristic byproduct of an 18th century fuel, coal.

Credit: thebravecowboy

Dr. Bronner's health tip for the Jodester: it is all connected, the coal extraction site and the finest lastest last living vestige of the glen cyn ecosystem. the you, the me, my sacred watershed and your "wasteland" for coal extraction.




10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Dec 4, 2017 - 06:32pm PT

So trashman, in your view, the federal government is the only entity capable of taking care of areas like this?

Many people who live in rural states, like Utah, are poor whites on the government dole. So while the states are taking care of their citizens, the government has to protect the public lands.
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Dec 4, 2017 - 06:47pm PT
So trashman, in your view, the federal government is the only entity capable of taking care of areas like this?

Not at all, I’ve seen local organizations do a great job, I’ve also seen the way locals like Phil Lyman and James Redd “protect” the area, and the reticence of this state to enforce the law when criminals like that are caught.

In this particular case I think the feds have shown themselves to be much more reliable stewards, so I support their management.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 4, 2017 - 06:52pm PT
I am perhaps more opposed to overmanagement than the next person, but JFC has anyone seem what just recreation alone has done to IC? Jody? oh wait.....

someone needs to be responsible for the climber feces, the acid rock tainting of OUR freshwater aquifer. it ain't bigdaddy coal, or excops from cali, and it sure isnt perfect public ownership-wise, but damn, as a person that actually knows the area, yeah, no, we do not need to regress to 17th C. England fuel sources. certainly not in our rare and fine desert. certainly not for to truck it out on diesel to fuel that liberal sex den Vegas. Right Jody.
Fossil climber

Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
Dec 4, 2017 - 07:25pm PT
If what I've heard in the news is correct, Chouinard will be joining a number of native American groups in legal proceedings. Yvon may be on top of things to a point, but he and the Navajos etc. can't do it all . I can't do much, writing from a home in Canada, but I hope lots of climbers will gang up on this, do whatever they can.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 4, 2017 - 07:27pm PT
we will, Wayne. Thanks for standing on the proper side of history with us.
Jody

climber
Occupied Territory
Dec 4, 2017 - 07:40pm PT
The "Chicken Little" crowd is out in full force.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 4, 2017 - 07:45pm PT
Go listen to Fux, Jodie, try taking a hike in the land you suggest to be unworthy of protection, or maybe, maybe, when Tinkerbell breaks 300lb, you'll go climbing and share a bit of it. otherwise you can continue (not/failing, etc) trying to explain to me why the land that i value for virginal rock and primal experiences lose out to your need for an antiquated, finite resource to be removed so you can try and wash off the stink of failed outdoorsman.


cheers Jodie . 🤠
Jody

climber
Occupied Territory
Dec 4, 2017 - 07:58pm PT
Hey cowboy, there is more land to hike in now than any of us could ever do in a thousand lifetimes. The problem with the preservation crowd is they don't think any ideas but theirs should be implemented. All possible uses of the land should be taken into account, not just the "preserve it all in it's present state" mantra of the preservationist crowd.


You'll be fine...there are plenty of places for you to find virgin rock to fondle. If you liberals had actually put forth a decent candidate, you wouldn't be dealing with Trump now. You have nobody but yourselves to blame. Just get your candidate elected next time and they can reverse Trump.

Winners get to do things the losers don't like. We put up with Obummer for 8 years...nut it up and try to win next time.
Don Paul

Mountain climber
Denver CO
Dec 4, 2017 - 08:12pm PT
Looks to me there will be two different kinds of legal challenges, by the tribes (Bear Ears) and by environmentalists (Escalante). Both should be tied up in court for years, because the whole area of law is uncertain, and a court would probably issue an injunction to preserve the status quo. Hopefully long enough to elect a different president - Trump didn't even visit these two places on his trip. I see this as a local Utah issue, but there is no national movement to wipe out the national parks.

I am still disturbed by the maps and what people are calling "Bears Ears" goes almost all the way to Moab. It looks like they want to extend the Moab sprawl along 191 south to Bluff. It looks like Indian Creek was spared but I want to see some more detailed maps.

For Escalante, regardless of the acreage I hope there are no open pit mines, which is all we seem to have in Colorado. The other problem with mining is that they never clean up the mess. That is what I hope the environmentalist lawyers would be working on.

Check out these google images of the Cerrejon and Drummond coal mines in Colombia.
frostback

Social climber
great white north
Dec 4, 2017 - 08:15pm PT
Jody
You should abandon taking photos of wilderness that patriots have preserved for future generations and instead focus on industrial wastelands. After all these are so near and dear to your winners, as I believe you call them, hearts.
To get you started on your tour of places to take pictures of, heres' a link to a useful journal.
https://toxicnews.org/2017/02/08/flatlining-exploring-hidden-toxic-landscapes-and-the-embodiment-of-contamination-at-rocky-flats-national-wildlife-refuge-usa/

Winner indeed!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 4, 2017 - 08:19pm PT
fatdad with all respect, I am doubtful of that legal argument. It's something that could be researched, but it seems to me that the power to designate is the power to un-designate.

There are a number of such limitations on the President. To just name one, the President can pardon a federal lawbreaker. Subsequent Presidents cannot withdraw that.

One of the jokes going around during Watergate, went along with your thinking. Since President Nixon had the Constitutional power to convene a meeting of Congress, as they carried on impeachment proceedings, he could call an emergency RECESS of Congress. No one believed it was so.

A minister can pronounce a couple man and wife. That minister cannot dissolve a marriage.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Dec 4, 2017 - 08:24pm PT
President Clinton issued an executive order with respect to roadless wilderness. It directly affected the ease and convenience of wild lands access for backcountry climbers, some (many) of whom post to this board and have complained about those rules.

President Bush rescinded that executive order.

Just an example of how taking the 'easy path' to controversial government can be easy to undo, subsequently.

I dunno if this Bears Ears situation is similar or not, however.

DMT
frostback

Social climber
great white north
Dec 4, 2017 - 08:35pm PT
Re "putting up with Obummer"
Jody,
Give that one a rest, it's tiresome on so many levels.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 4, 2017 - 08:45pm PT
Heidi & I have been visiting the SE Utah places that briefly became Bear's Ears National Monument, almost every spring since 2000.
It is a rare, beautiful, & fragile area that has been grazed, farmed, logged, mined, & drilled, all with lasting damage, but no lasting economic success. No matter, Trump & his supporters demand it be exploited some more.

Every old drill hole is in bulldozed areas & covered with introduced weeds. Every old 640 acre dry farm is abandoned, but they do grow superb tumbleweeds. The pinyon pines are too small for commercial lumber, but the locals do enjoy logging them for firewood. The cows seek shade in the hot summer months & crowd into the overhanging alcoves the Anasazis built in. Any ruin that cows can climb into has been leveled in the last 130 years of grazing. Happily, all the mines were just prospect holes in unproductive sandstone.


May any here that want more development of this area, be afflicted with boils & pestilence, as I also wish on Trump & his ilk.

Credit: Fritz
Credit: Fritz

Credit: Fritz
Credit: Fritz
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 4, 2017 - 08:50pm PT
Aw sh#t, can't help myself.

Hey Jody, don't you just love the way these watermelon greenies who live in urban bubbles get all "states-rights" about gun control, immigration, sanctuary, etc.--but when it comes to big fed western land-grabbin, well, they couldn't give two shits about a representative process or what the local "hicks" want?

The good news is that the autocratic edicts these lib drones prefer to live under are just as easily undone. For now.

The dirty little secret is that righties love open space and wilderness just as much--probably more--than lib urbanites and your average Taos/Jackson/Telluride/Boulder/Sun River/Leavenworth fantasy-land, well-funded bubble nut. The righties just seem to care about democracy too. Oh, the shame.



BJ

climber
Dec 4, 2017 - 09:01pm PT
I heard on the news to day that Utah lawmakers are fighting to get these monuments down-sized because the grazing ban is stifling economic growth. Where are we? Johnson County in 1889?
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 4, 2017 - 09:04pm PT
You go Lituyu! After all, you've been posting here since Nov. 17th & actually made a climbing related post, along with another 59 or so on political threads.

But who's counting, it's all about your Trump-given rights to bash liberals on blog sites!

Have another beer & feel gud about yourself.


Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Dec 4, 2017 - 09:05pm PT
Nice shots Fritz. We enjoyed a brief tour of GSENM this spring, but had the kids in tow, including our youngest, who was only 6 at the time, so were pretty limited in what we could explore. Beautiful country.
Credit: Fat Dad
I'd love get back and explore more, before the strip miners (I mean god fearin' capitalist heroes) move in, block off access and make a mineral toilet out of the place.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Dec 4, 2017 - 09:06pm PT
Aw sh#t, can't help myself.

Hey Jody, don't you just love the way these watermelon greenies who live in urban bubbles get all "states-rights" about gun control, immigration, sanctuary, etc.--but when it comes to big fed western land-grabbin, well, they couldn't give two shits about a representative process or what the local "hicks" want?

The good news is that the autocratic edicts these lib drones prefer to live under are just as easily undone. For now.

The dirty little secret is that righties love open space and wilderness just as much--probably more--than lib urbanites and your average Taos/Jackson/Telluride/Boulder/Sun River/Leavenworth fantasy-land, well-funded bubble nut. The righties just seem to care about democracy too. Oh, the shame.

Typical response of a conservative. Always respond with an ad hominem attack. That's the extent of their vocabulary.
frostback

Social climber
great white north
Dec 4, 2017 - 09:07pm PT
Nice Pics Fritz!
Us losers, as Jody likes to call us, have to stick, nay band together, to smite the creed of political chicanery he so slavishly follows at the ballot box.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 4, 2017 - 09:10pm PT
can-donald-trump-get-rid-national-monument-protect/

Highlights:

Squillace told us that the Antiquities Act is silent on a president’s power to withdraw a designation. If Congress had wanted to allow that, based on other bills passed at the time, Squillace said it would have done so.

He said two laws, the Pickett Act of 1910 and a 1897 Forest Service law, specifically said a president "may vacate altogether" any order that set aside land under those acts.

Ruple echoed that point and said Congress "clearly knew that was an option and how to do it, if they had wanted to."

Basically, the argument goes that through both the 1906 and the 1976 laws, Congress was making sure that it retained final say over protected lands. If a president protected a block of land, only Congress had the authority to reverse it.
Don Paul

Mountain climber
Denver CO
Dec 4, 2017 - 09:23pm PT
When Bill Clinton created Grand Staircase - Escalante, his proclamation went on for several pages, listing the objects to be protected. Something Donald Trump should have read in advance. Then:

Now, Therefore, I, William J. Clinton, President of the United States of America, by the authority vested in me by section 2 of the Act of June 8, 1906 (34 Stat. 225, 16 U.S.C. 431), do proclaim that there are hereby set apart and reserved as the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument, for the purpose of protecting the objects identified above, all lands and interests in lands owned or controlled by the United States within the boundaries of the area described on the document entitled "Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument" attached to and forming a part of this proclamation. The Federal land and interests in land reserved consist of approximately 1.7 million acres, which is the smallest area compatible with the proper care and management of the objects to be protected.

So, President Clinton already identified in great detail what objects were to be protected, and the smallest compatible area. On what basis does President Trump think a smaller area would protect the same objects? Particularly the Kaiparowits Plateau, where the coal is. One way to challenge any government agency action is on the basis that it is arbitrary.
frostback

Social climber
great white north
Dec 4, 2017 - 09:32pm PT
Don Paul,
The winners on this forum will be happy to educate us big city, or worse yet, recreation town, libs that pesky facts and points of law are for losers. Just rush on in and get er done.
Jody

climber
Occupied Territory
Dec 4, 2017 - 09:36pm PT
Give that one a rest, it's tiresome on so many levels.

As is the Trump witch hunt.

There are already environmental laws in place that CAN'T be reversed or ignored that require mining clean-up, pollution control, etc. You folks are freaking out about something that can't happen.
frostback

Social climber
great white north
Dec 4, 2017 - 09:45pm PT
Tell you what, Jody, lets see who gets convicted of wrongdoing first: Slick Willy, Shrill Hillary or donald. Trumpie has a sexual suit going on right now; maybe Bill will finally get his comeuppance one day, as for his coldly calculating partner; well don't hold your breath bucko.
As for your obummer bitching, suck it baby!
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Dec 4, 2017 - 09:51pm PT
As is the Trump witch hunt
No, thanks to your boy's poor behavior, that's the gift that keeps on giving. I'm sure he has a bottomless closet of skeletons. Pity you don't see that.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 4, 2017 - 09:56pm PT
I'm sure he has a bottomless closet of skeletons. Pity you don't see that.

No doubt. So did Hillary. Probably far more. But those were the choices.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Dec 5, 2017 - 04:04am PT
Now On to The Arctic Tragedy, that will un-fold






feralfae

Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery

Dec 4, 2017 - 06:22pm PT
This is sort of long, but please contact your congress critters about this if you are so inclined, to have it stricken from the bill even now. It has been brought to the attention of Survival International, as it was rather hidden in the tax cut bill (no comment) and it is a violation of the agreement that First People's lands that were turned over for NWRs would remain pristine. It is a betrayal of the government, federal and state. Of course, AK has the most corrupt state government of any. Google it! I think Kentucky may be fifth. Anyway, here is the letter we have to share with everyone we think might have an interest. Thank you.
ff


On behalf of the Alaska Friends Conference, the Representative Committee reached unity on the following statement of support.

November 27, 2017

“Let Love be the first motion.” – John Woolman

“It is essential to show special care for indigenous communities and their cultural traditions. They are not merely one minority among others, but should be the principal dialogue partners, especially when large projects affecting their land are proposed. For them, land is not a commodity but rather a gift from God and from their ancestors who rest there, a sacred space with which they need to interact if they are to maintain their identity and values. When they remain on their land, they themselves care for it best. Nevertheless, in various parts of the world, pressure is being put on them to abandon their homelands to make room for agricultural or mining projects which are undertaken without regard for the degradation of nature and culture." - Pope Francis in his message from the Encyclical Laudato Si’ “On care for our common home,” #146

Urgent Greetings to Friends Everywhere,

In the spirit of love for this land called Alaska and sensitivity to the interconnected web of all life that live here, we of the Alaska Friends Conference (Quakers), invite you to stand with us in solidarity with the Gwich’in people (see http://ourarcticrefuge.org/take-action/,);; the Episcopal Church and other faith groups in opposition to proposed oil exploration and development in the Coastal Plain of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, a region known as the “1002 Area” in our nation’s current legislative discussions. Our call rises out of respect and deep concern:
For the Sacred and vital sources of life.
For traditional cultures and people who strive to live in harmony with their natural surroundings.
For the negative impacts that our continued dependency on fossil fuels is having on our climate, our peoples (and native cultures disproportionately,) our life forms and our lands.

We ask Friends around the world to join us in prayerful support and urgent acts of advocacy.

Unlike other areas of the North Slope currently developed for oil extraction, the Arctic National Wildlife Reserve (ANWR) lies within an area known as ““Iizhik Gwats’an Gwandaii Goodlit, “ (“The Sacred Place Where Life Begins”) to the Gwich’in People who have subsisted on the areas’ resources for thousands of years. The Porcupine Caribou Herd, the foundation of the Gwich’ins’ subsistence culture and way of life, uses this area for birthing and nursing their young. For the Gwich’in People, the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge was created in part because this area is Sacred.

We live in challenging times in Alaska; acutely aware of the devastating instability of our climate yet largely dependent on the fossil fuel development that drives it. In Alaska Friends Conference we see the injustice and unsustainability in this balance. We seek examples for living in harmony with our surroundings, to develop ties and traditions in keeping with this place. We are moved by the deeply rooted knowledge, respect and reverence the Gwich’in people hold for the places where they strive to live. In keeping with Pope Francis’ message above, when Gwich’in people express grave concerns for human impacts on the sensitive ecosystem of the Arctic Refuge Coastal Plain, we receive their concerns with no less weight than we would hear Catholics speak of the Vatican, or Jews of Jerusalem, or Muslims of Mecca or any other people with regard to their sacred, tradition- and culture-bearing sites. We are moved to accompany them.

We recognize that not all Alaska Native groups are of a single mind on this issue. In the absence of clear consensus, we are ultimately left to discern a path forward based on our own principles and understanding of Truth. In discouraging further oil extraction, in protecting the Arctic Coastal Plain and the Porcupine Caribou Herd that is dependent on this area, in standing with the Gwich’in Nation, which encompasses both Alaskan and Canadian villages and other Alaska Natives and residents who have deep spiritual and cultural ties to this same area, this call reflects our understanding of Love in the Greater Good.

Please, join us in prayer and advocacy. We would be happy to answer questions, or for further information, contact the Gwich’in Steering Committee directly at http://ourarcticrefuge.org/.

On behalf of Alaska Friends Conference (Quakers),
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Dec 5, 2017 - 05:15am PT
There are already environmental laws in place that CAN'T be reversed or ignored that require mining clean-up, pollution control, etc.

Nope, the DNR regularly waves the reclamation bonds here (“too onerous” or some other such BS), so when these poorly thought out endeavors go teats up the taxpayers are left holding the bag.

The book cliffs are riddled with these leftovers, enough of them that my brother has a full time job assessing sites in order to prioritize them so that when the Feds force the state to do its job, the meager funds they cough up can be used on the most pressing cases first(like the one the canucks left. Bolted when they realized it wasn’t feasible, left the waste water pit open. When my brother was out checking the site it had caught a few deer, a cow and a dozen or so birds).
frostback

Social climber
great white north
Dec 5, 2017 - 05:26am PT
Trashman,
There is a sordid history of cut and run of Canadian mining companies both at home and abroad.
Don Paul

Mountain climber
Denver CO
Dec 5, 2017 - 05:46am PT
^ somewhere in my legal theorizing I said that a govt action could be challenged if it is arbitrary. Unfortunately I was thinking of the APA, which doesn't apply to executive orders. (it does apply to Dept of Interior) The "proclamations" that establish the national monuments appear to be executive orders, rather than agency actions subject to APA review. The legal test for challenging executive orders is in the Youngstown Sheet & Tube case, which is not very fun to read, but basically says that the President can't just "do something" without a legal basis. I think this is why the environmentalists who already filed suit are not making environmental law arguments, but arguments about the authorization the president has under the Antiquities Act. I think Trump has a good chance of winning and expanding the power of the presidency, as George W Bush liked to do. John Yoo is even involved.
frostback

Social climber
great white north
Dec 5, 2017 - 06:21am PT
Ah yes, John Yoo of waterboarding fame, nasty piece of work right up there with Elliot Abrams of Iran Contra ancient history who is no doubt slithering around behind Oliver North, currently the front stooge for the proposed private intelligence service being pushed by blackwater founder Mr Prince.

Back to the topic at hand, the expansion of Presidential Authority; politics aside this will be an interesting case with far-reaching consequences.

Meanwhile on the tiresome subject of trumps' russian connections; how about those Deutsche Bank subpoenas eh Jody?
Jody

climber
Occupied Territory
Dec 5, 2017 - 07:03am PT
You are right Lituya...and I have known for years that it is useless to try and convey a little common sense to these people. It is pretty much a lost cause as the haters are going to hate, and the chicken littler's are going to keep causing the sky to fall...but it does keep my blood flowing to argue with them.

Have to add Patagonia and REI to my list of boycotted businesses. They won't miss me though, don't buy their crap to begin with.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Dec 5, 2017 - 07:45am PT
Have to add Patagonia and REI to my list of boycotted businesses. They won't miss me though, don't

I don't believe you. How are the donuts this morning?
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 5, 2017 - 07:51am PT
leave it an ex-cop to thoroughly understand the way that mining and reclamation work. Jody I bet you thoroughly understand the poisoning of the Alamosa, the cyanide in the Rio Grande, the fact that your/our tax dollars are squandered in such situations (while the company just walks away, free of obligation) due to the fact that the legal framework for extraction fails to cover the most marginal beginnings of even an assessment in the remediation process. Right?

Nuglet

Trad climber
Orange Murica!
Dec 5, 2017 - 08:02am PT
Tribes haves casinos and are competition to Trump's

so of course Trump is going after Indians and their land
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Dec 5, 2017 - 08:10am PT
In the interest of balance, I’m not a fan of the Patagonia/REI tagline if “The President Stole Your Land”. It was and is federal land, and I guess “The President just handed management of millions of acres to bumpkins who just want to drive their OHV’s wherever they want and pay below market rates for grazing rights” is less catchy.

Hopefully the bumper sticker version generates lots of donations so we can keep this in the courts for the next 4-8 years(you know, running out the clock like Bishop tried to do).
Mike Friedrichs

Sport climber
City of Salt
Dec 5, 2017 - 08:41am PT
Jody you should take the time to educate yourself. As was mentioned above, the Public Lands Initiative (PLI) that was organized by our republican representatives (Bishop, Chaffetz) was a long, long process. They ultimately recommended a national monument for what became Bears Ears that had borders almost identical to what was protected by President Obama. They never could get the bill out of committee for a vote. So Obama acted and basically protected what they had recommended.

Suddenly, because it was done by a black democrat, it changed from a GOP recommended protected area to a "land grab."

The whole signing yesterday was a circus. They picked one paid off Indian, who happens to be on the San Juan county council to "speak" for all Native Americans. The five tribe coalition came together after 80 years of conflict over this issue and was united in wanting Bears Ears protected by a monument.

Polls showed that 88% of Utahns support the monument. Who are the "locals" whose lifestyles will be affected? Who represents me? Zinke said he met with the locals. Apparently he doesn't consider Native Americans people because he never met with them. The hand picked sycophantic crowd in the Capital rotunda was picked to make Trump look good.

For Trump, this isn't about energy development. It's about appeasing his demographic -- a small minority of low educated, racist, rural people who are very afraid of a changing world. It's about politics, appeasing Hatch and Bishop and Herbert and the rest of the cronies from Utah. Seeing their smug faces makes me ill.
Nuglet

Trad climber
Orange Murica!
Dec 5, 2017 - 08:52am PT
Tribes haves casinos and are competition to Trump's

so of course Trump is going after Indians and their land
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Dec 5, 2017 - 08:55am PT
Trump retards are always good for a laugh

Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Dec 5, 2017 - 09:03am PT
Thanks for the insights Don. I'll have to wade through that when the opportunity presents itself.
Re Lituya's comments:
No doubt. So did Hillary. Probably far more.
Republicans like Jody sure like to believe this, but it's just that--speculation. There have been alot of allegations about the Clintons, and alot of investigating, but little substantive reported. There were more hearings held on Benghazi than Watergate and nothing to show for all that political theater, and yet the right still believe something untoward happened for which Hillary should be held accountable. There is almost an equal amount of talk of the Clinton Foundation but, again, little hard evidence of any wrongdoing.

In contrast, we KNOW alot about Trump's illicit behavior--both during the election, in office and with his foundation--and it fails to register. I fail to see people of Jody's ilk actually troubled by ethics. Rather, it's something that only applies the other side. The Roy Moores of the world get a pass because somehow just being a democrat is worse than being a child molester.
c wilmot

climber
Dec 5, 2017 - 09:07am PT
They never could get the bill out of committee for a vote


probably because its a dumb idea to put federal land under a new designation when they have historically failed to adequately fund the agency's in charge of maintaining and protecting said lands...

All this talk about preservation is pretty pointless when we fail to preserve and protect what we already have






Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 5, 2017 - 11:51am PT

You are right Lituya...and I have known for years that it is useless to try and convey a little common sense to these people. It is pretty much a lost cause as the haters are going to hate, and the chicken littler's are going to keep causing the sky to fall...but it does keep my blood flowing to argue with them.

It might be a bit more interesting if there were ever an original thought among them. Or even a bit of nuance from time to time. I’ll hand it to ‘em though, they do a good job drumming the orthodoxy.

xCon

Social climber
909
Dec 5, 2017 - 11:58am PT
what clear is that trump as victor serves chiefly to allow those with despicable character traits to trot them out and flash them around as if they were so missed as to be due a parade...
Mike Friedrichs

Sport climber
City of Salt
Dec 6, 2017 - 09:01am PT
http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/bagley/2017/12/06/bagley-cartoon-the-lost-tribes/
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 6, 2017 - 02:13pm PT
Well, all you "Protect Bear's Ears" protesters now have Indian Creek National Monument.

All it is going to take to end climbing in Indian Creek is one particular (Dabneyesque) bureaucrat to take offense at the bright colored rap slings or the chalk or the trails and ,...... POOF!



(you heard it here first)
Hobo Greg

Trad climber
ISELIN
Dec 6, 2017 - 02:34pm PT
To all the Repiglicans who say Obama went too far (nevermind that native ruined actually asked him to create bears ears-hows that for listening to the REAL locals?), Remember that we only have the grand canyon because Theodore Roosevelt used the antiquities act to save 800,000 acres of it from being strip mined, all because Congress wouldn't make it a national park. Would you like reverse that as well?
Hobo Greg

Trad climber
ISELIN
Dec 6, 2017 - 02:39pm PT
I can't believe so many climbers are against national monuments. Why do some people wish to see every square inch of land developed, exploited, and otherwise shat upon? What is to gain that we don't already have? Are we not already the richest nation in the history of the world? What more do we need?
Jkruse

Trad climber
Las Cruces, NM
Dec 6, 2017 - 02:46pm PT
growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.

-cactus ed
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
Dec 6, 2017 - 02:48pm PT
Most of the people on this forum who oppose monuments likely never climbed or haven't climbed in years and don't care about losing access.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Dec 6, 2017 - 02:55pm PT
I can't believe so many climbers are against national monuments.

The apathy, for lack of a better word, of climbers with respect to protecting Bears Ears continues to surprise me. I know some have reservations about management by the park service. Ron appears to be one of that crowd. But we all know that national monuments are barely a blip on the radar. Joshua Tree was a sleepy, backwater national monument for years until it went bananas after becoming a park. I don't find Ron's argument convincing either. Sure it's easy to toil in solitude when the land isn't managed or privately owned, but given the visible signs of climbers and their gear in Yosemite, Zion, Joshua Tree, etc., etc., without any loss of access, I don't find that argument too convincing. You want to lose access quickly? Let a private company block it off to exploit mineral rights.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 6, 2017 - 02:57pm PT
OTEASTD You seem to think that access is guaranteed as a park.

The only thing that is guaranteed are more crowds. Indian Creek protected itself.




Fat Dad, you haven't seen the whimsical and capricious side of the NPS that I have.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
Dec 6, 2017 - 03:03pm PT
All climbing on all federal land is subject to restrictions imposed by arbitrary bureaucrats and it happens here and there. I will take my chances with that over guranteed full closures based on mining, timber and O&G operations.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Dec 6, 2017 - 03:59pm PT
Fat Dad, you haven't seen the whimsical and capricious side of the NPS that I have.
Ron, I don't doubt it for a minute. It's not an easy issue for me either way. As ontheedge mentioned, given a choice, I'd rather take my chances with the feds than private corporate interests.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Dec 6, 2017 - 09:43pm PT
From Obama's executive order on the Bears Ears:

"The area contains numerous objects of historic and of scientific interest, and it provides world class outdoor recreation opportunities, including rock climbing, hunting, hiking, backpacking, canyoneering, whitewater rafting, mountain biking, and horseback riding. Because visitors travel from near and far, these lands support a growing travel and tourism sector that is a source of economic opportunity for the region."

Trump's executive order:

McGinnis

climber
Dec 7, 2017 - 11:55am PT
http://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2017/12/03/effort-to-shrink-bears-ears-national-monument-started-before-donald-trump-was-elected-president/

Effort to shrink Bears Ears National Monument started before Donald Trump was elected president

Sen. Orrin Hatch and Donald Trump Jr., the president’s son, were key players in the anti-monument campaign.

Hatch pitched the anti-monument cause as a “fight back against Washington overreach,” mirroring the GOP nominee’s drain-the-swamp campaign mantra.

While polls and pundits expected a Hillary Clinton presidency, Hatch and others had already started laying the groundwork to overturn any Obama action should Trump win the White House. And when he did, the concerted, full-court press began, according to officials involved at several levels of the Utah effort.

“It started well before,” said Boyd Matheson, president of the Sutherland Institute, which helped lead the fight against the monument and subsequently to shrink it. “Every elected official from the mayors to the commissioners, every single elected representative, got engaged in it. It was the real, Utah cumulative, everybody-pull-together kind of thing.”

The Trump administration had a lot to do in the transition, mainly because many in the campaign had bought into the narrative that Hillary Clinton would win. With the whole Cabinet to nominate, a White House to staff and pending national security and domestic agendas to be plotted, public lands weren’t on the top of the list.

But they were for Utah leaders.

“Utah definitely made sure that it was on the president’s radar,” Matheson said.

The effort included calls, emails, letters and sit-downs with transition officials.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 7, 2017 - 12:07pm PT
Weren't the managers at Christmas tree pass trying to chop everything, that place is very obscure and part of a lowly Recreation area
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Dec 7, 2017 - 12:09pm PT
Yep, the gubmint shore does hate climbing, wait until they find out people are climbing in Yosemite, and that it’s one of their parks!
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 7, 2017 - 12:12pm PT
fixed anchor ban bishes, the toker has a point.

and (admittedly lax) enforcement of such is much stronger in cases of NM or NP status.

still though, toker, you been to IC recently? you notice the turds at the cliffs, stuffed partway under rocks? how about the spent tubes of herpes medication? I mean some kind of potent management (not BLM or local) might help with simple, simple LNT practices actually occurrign.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 7, 2017 - 12:52pm PT
After years of GWB and BHO open-borders immigration policy, I wonder just how much of an impact setting aside 800k acres really has. Immigrants use resources too.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 7, 2017 - 01:10pm PT
what? abstruse goose called and he wants his logic back


not sure what Juan mopping the floors at the burger joint has to do with public empty-lands management.


I'd like to see some gymnastics so please enlighten me Lituya.

Also, while you're at the calisthenics, could you please clarify, in your own words, what exactly the Obama "open-border policy" was?

How has the current POTUS changed the borders in a way that will affect IC or American BLM land Lituya?

Wait-a-minute! I think I'd rather go gym climb.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 7, 2017 - 01:16pm PT
Climbing at Indian Creek was not threatened before Obama's Bears Ears designation, it is not threatened now.

What I've learned in spending a little time looking into this is that the Access Fund appears to have morphed from an organization with the primary goal of preserving climbing access into an organization that is primarily concerned with general liberal environmentalist lobbying (which ironically is more of a threat to climbing access than extractive industries, at least if the past is any predictor of the future).

I'm basing my opinion to a large extent on reading the Access Fund's website, which I found to be utterly unconvincing in presenting Bears Ears as a dispute involving climbing access.

(This isn't to say that Obama's Bears Ears designation wasn't good for other other reasons, or that Trump's reversal is legal; I don't really have an opinion on those issues one way or the other. The legal issue is, I take it, at least fairly debatable--I certainly haven't read anything to the contrary, notwithstanding the Access Fund's conclusory pronouncements.)
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Dec 7, 2017 - 01:23pm PT
Climbing at Indian Creek was not threatened before Obama's Bears Ears designation, it is not threatened now.

Nope, but I bet that OHV trail San Juan county wanted next to creek pasture is back on the table now. Gonna need a lot more didgeridoos and zen flutes to drown that out.
limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Dec 7, 2017 - 02:07pm PT
Sorry if this was addressed cause I haven't read the thread but I have one quick question.

Is the former monument getting converted back to its original public land designation (national forest, BLM, or whatever) or is it getting sold to private interests and will no longer be public land?
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 7, 2017 - 02:09pm PT
still public. just more open to extraction, drilling, more likely to face ATVs etc, LESS likely to face fixed anchor ban, hordes of (climbing and other) tourons, etc
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Dec 7, 2017 - 02:17pm PT
So far. One dark thought that occurred to me this morning; Trump really doesn’t want Romney running for Hatch’s seat, and seems to be courting Hatch to run again. Official Utah pol position was never just eliminating BENM, they wanted the lands “returned” to the state.

Seems incredibly stupid for a senate seat(esp one that has no chance of changing parties) but I’ve lost count of the times I’ve muttered “They can’t be that stupid…” this year.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 7, 2017 - 02:26pm PT
@BraveRacistCowboy - not sure what Juan mopping the floors at the burger joint has to do with public empty-lands management.

A rather stunning comment.
limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Dec 7, 2017 - 03:02pm PT
Is the former monument getting converted back to its original public land designation (national forest, BLM, or whatever) or is it getting sold to private interests and will no longer be public land?

still public. just more open to extraction, drilling, more likely to face ATVs etc, LESS likely to face fixed anchor ban, hordes of (climbing and other) tourons, etc

Thanks, that's what I thought, so I guess I'll stick with my "don't care if it loses its monument designation" opinion.

I wish Giant Sequoia National Monument was just a regular National Forest like it used to be. It got reviewed with the rest of them but no luck here.

Kinda funny how there's a thread where basically everyone on ST bashes the idea of Sierra NF getting the monument designation and another thread where almost everyone on ST gets pissed about Bear's Ears losing its monument designation.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 7, 2017 - 03:09pm PT
Yes Lituya, yes. Avoid my question by pegging me as racist (ha!). Your comment attempted to link immigrants to monument status...Care to respond to my query?

After years of GWB and BHO open-borders immigration policy, I wonder just how much of an impact setting aside 800k acres really has. Immigrants use resources too.

I'm not the one using immigrants and the scary, scary "open-borders" policy of prior administrations to argue against monument status.....


Lituya, once again, please expound on the "open-borders" policy in place prior to the present time?

Lituya, again, please expound on the relationship between immigration policy and protection of federal lands?


If I cared to clear the air with you re: my "racism," I would. You have no idea.


Reeotch

climber
4 Corners Area
Dec 7, 2017 - 03:47pm PT
Is the former monument getting converted back to its original public land designation (national forest, BLM, or whatever) or is it getting sold to private interests and will no longer be public land?

No, not yet, that is:

Utah State Senator David Hinkins told the crowd they had won a battle but said he didn’t believe they have yet won the war. Hinkins added, “We need to get control of these lands under the State of Utah.”
http://ksjd.org/post/monticello-rally-celebrates-trumps-cuts-national-monuments
And, after reading this:
http://knau.org/post/trumps-utah-monument-reduction-plan-legal

Presidents have reduced monuments in the past, though not as much as Trump’s plan. He proposes shrinking Bears Ears by 85 percent and Escalante by about half its size. Opponents say a president can only designate a monument and it’s up to Congress to reduce it.

"Congress clarified that in a 1976 law, the Federal Lands Management Act, which does have an express provision saying the Secretary of Interior cannot modify or revoke any national monuments,” says Kirsten Engel, a law professor at the University of Arizona.

No monuments have been reduced since that act passed. Engel also says there’s never been a Supreme Court case on the issue. So it’s new legal territory.
. . . I'm wondering if the whole game is to force the issue into the SCOTUS???
c wilmot

climber
Dec 7, 2017 - 03:50pm PT
The game is to distract and divide.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 7, 2017 - 04:05pm PT
@BraveCowboy

Opposing illegal immigration is not racist. On the other hand, stereotyping immigrants as "Juan" and worthy only of "mopping the floor at the local burger joint"--as you did--certainly is.

En cuanto a la premisa, um, esta no mui dificil, mi amigo. The majority of population growth in the US over the past 30 or so years is a result of immigration and the first generation thereof. The extractive industries you decry, rightly or wrongly, are acting on our behalf. More people = more strain on natural resources.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 7, 2017 - 04:49pm PT
More people = more strain on natural resources.

The difference in the per capita impact on resources of undocumented vs. the white middle class is astronomical. Do you really think negative population growth is a good thing?
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 7, 2017 - 05:25pm PT
The difference in the per capita impact on resources of undocumented vs. the white middle class is astronomical.

You mean the per capita "white" middle class consumes more than the Asian middle class? or the black middle class? or the Latino middle class? I had no idea!
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Dec 7, 2017 - 05:56pm PT
The game is to distract and divide.

And as if on cue Lituya wants to discuss illegal immigration wrt public lands. It’s like they all listen to the same low IQ demagogues.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 7, 2017 - 06:15pm PT
Sorry to disappoint, Trashman. This has been a Sierra Club debate for nearly two decades.

The real issue is liberal-green hypocrisy and its adherents' refusal to look in the mirror re resource and land management.
xCon

Social climber
909
Dec 7, 2017 - 06:20pm PT
climbing.com
Interview: Access Fund's Brady Robinson on Trump's Bears Ears Reduction
Credit: xCon
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Dec 7, 2017 - 06:23pm PT
You mean like someone trying to divide Sierra club membership over a totally unrelated issue? Sounds like a good way to dilute influence.

People impact the planet wherever they are, don’t thing the SC cares if it’s the Sierra Nevada or Baja.

Edit. On the off chance you’re looking for an honest “look in the mirror” assessment; My wife and spent much of our courtship in the IC area. We loved the place and saw it being loved to death as time went on. Our response was to aggressively fund raise for permanent toilet facilities and to stop visiting. It’s been over a decade now and I miss it, but not enough to deal with the crowds that are now commonplace there. What have you done to improve the places you love Lituya?
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 7, 2017 - 06:30pm PT
^yeah dude, shame to know I'll not likely be back to that place again. understand.


Lituya, I am well-versed in leasable salable and locatable minerals and their extraction - I never used the word greedy, nor am I afraid to face the fact that I utilize fossil energy. I'm a bit unsure how immigrants use energy differently than do red-blooded Americans......

I am not afraid of Juan mopping the floor down on the corner, nor would I limit him to such. You are the one so scared of what's across the border, not me.
My friend Juan who works at the burger shop a l'esquina says to you: Chupalo pendejito.

You choose not to address my repeated simple questions about your linking immigration to protection of our land.

Lituya, once again, please expound on the "open-borders" policy in place prior to the present time?

Lituya, again, please expound on the relationship between immigration policy and protection of federal lands?


No need to answer, I understand that your weak skillz direct you to divert, obfuscate, reflect perceived biases/transgressions. You lack the humanity to call me a racist AFAIAC.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 7, 2017 - 06:44pm PT
Most geologists I've worked with are great at connecting dots--but less so at irony. The pieces are all above; not sure I can offer additional help.

BTW, have you worked a lot with lead?
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 7, 2017 - 06:46pm PT
If the issue is population growth, call it such. If the issue is fear of the other, call it such.

I'm still a bit cornfused as to how one immediately resorts to Immigration in a discussion of land preservation.


If you fail to see a way around utilizing 17th century energy sources and think that Messicans and other southern swarthy types are the main driver of increasing energy use, I guess......














































Credit: thebravecowboy
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 7, 2017 - 06:52pm PT
The pressure to extract, develop, use land is directly related to the number of people using resources. Kind of a Malthusian concept in reverse. Extractive industries simply respond to demand and lobby for more land from which to extract.


BTW, you keep editing and radically changing your posts. Please stop. Difficult to have a conversation with such a shape-shifting, racist tool.

thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 7, 2017 - 06:53pm PT
pressure to extract, develop, use land is directly related to the number of people using resources

well if we keep using resources in the same way we did in 1769 then sure. The population problem is not unique to the US, nor do the US and its resources exist in some kind of God-given White bubble..not sure why you feel the need to selectively point out "Others" in this discussion of American resources. Calvino leave the TV on all night or something?

If all them Others are kept out in your master scheme of federal land management, won't the market still just force a selling off of such unprotected (in your scenario) mostly antiquated (in fact) resources under our desert land? To them dirty rotten screwin'-like-rabbits Others, too.


This is not about WHO is consuming the resources. It is about preserving land for the sake of the land itself. You know, like a keepsake. Or a savings account.



racist tool

this is a first for me. thanks?



EDIT: no. I switch my postings to spread-eagles of Maggie Thatcher if you keep calling me a racist, you Alaska-sounding potato-punch sucking scoundrel ;-O
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Dec 7, 2017 - 07:37pm PT
Opposing illegal immigration is not racist. On the other hand, stereotyping immigrants as "Juan" and worthy only of "mopping the floor at the local burger joint"--as you did--certainly is.
You deal in sophistries. Cowboy didn't make the judgment call about Juan only being fit for handling the busy end of the mop, you did. Moreover, while you may believe that supporting illegal immigration is not racist, many racists support illegal immigration. Many others point to immigrants (typically the brown ones) as a straw man for every other ill in society, even when some of those ills are created by their own political choices.

Moreover, the Sierra Club does not advocate for immigration control as a check on human impact on the environment. Some segments of the Sierra Club call for it to make population control a greater priority as a means of preserving the environment. Whatever vague connection you've drawn between Bears Ears and immigration is the product of your own mindset.

Sorry Lituya, but your mask is slipping.
Don Paul

Mountain climber
Denver CO
Dec 7, 2017 - 08:00pm PT
ERASED: Trump’s cuts to Bears Ears in 100 photos - great photography with a mix of archeological sites and sweeping vistas including N/S Sixshooter.

xCon - great map, note the oil & gas lease area in between Indian Creek and Canyonlands NP southern entrance. That would definitely be a weird place to drill. On the other hand, maybe it would reduce the overcrowding in the park.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 7, 2017 - 10:06pm PT
Cowboy didn't make the judgment call about Juan only being fit for handling the busy end of the mop, you did. Moreover, while you may believe that supporting illegal immigration is not racist, many racists support illegal immigration. Many others point to immigrants (typically the brown ones) as a straw man for every other ill in society, even when some of those ills are created by their own political choices.

Sorry Fats, but "Juan" is a fiction created out of a stereotype by Cowboy himself--despite his later attempts to edit and claim that he is a real. Bizarre, frankly.

Anyhow, your predictable trotting out of the brown-hater lies at the heart of why white liberal paternal racism is probably the most insidious brand on the shelf. Just so we're clear, whites and Latinos in California are economic equals now, right? I mean, when you go out to your local crag, on public land, in your SUV, and pull out your bag with $15k or $20k worth of play things there are non-whites all around you too. Right?

Face it, climbing is an elitist, white pursuit here in the US. Sure, I have "brown" friends (as you call us) that climb in Bolivia, Mexico, and Colombia. Dirty little secret, they don't like white liberal patronizing tools like you and Cowboy very much coming down and spending two or three years worth of local salary to jerk yourself off on a mountain--even if they will take your money.

Good day. Eres un tonto.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 7, 2017 - 11:42pm PT
Lituya, Juan is figurative, and real and he has NOTHING to do with Bear's Ears besides paying taxes.



Again, not sure how Bear's Ears relates to Colombia.
Byran

climber
Half Dome Village
Dec 8, 2017 - 03:53am PT
Just so we're clear, whites and Latinos in California are economic equals now, right? I mean, when you go out to your local crag, on public land, in your SUV, and pull out your bag with $15k or $20k worth of play things there are non-whites all around you too. Right?
You're the one who was JUST arguing that we need to reduce immigration to mitigate impacts on public lands. Now you're saying only rich white people show up to play in nature?
Reeotch

climber
4 Corners Area
Dec 8, 2017 - 04:34am PT
The Citadel
The Citadel
Credit: Reeotch
Credit: Reeotch
Credit: Reeotch
Owl Canyon
Owl Canyon
Credit: Reeotch

All in the Monument.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 8, 2017 - 08:19am PT
Reotech! We hiked/scrambled out of the canyon to the north of the landform in your 1st photo last May & ended up about a 1/2 mile west of it. We did a similar, but different route about 15 years ago.

Great fun, & you never know what you might find on the way.

1/2 way to the rim.
1/2 way to the rim.
Credit: Fritz

The technical crux of the scramble.   The "yere gunna die" if you slip...
The technical crux of the scramble. The "yere gunna die" if you slip here, crux was a little ways lower.
Credit: Fritz
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Dec 8, 2017 - 09:03am PT
Here's a pretty solid article from the Salt Lake Trib on what's in and what's out.
Of particular interest is the animation near the top of the article showing the differences between what various groups wanted for the Bears Ears area. Note how closely the eventual BENM matches the PLI proposal put together by two of the Utah GOP representatives, Jason Chaffetz and Rob Bishop.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/12/05/trump-turned-two-vast-utah-national-monuments-into-five-smaller-ones-heres-a-look-at-the-new-sites-and-key-lands-that-got-left-out/
xCon

Social climber
909
Dec 8, 2017 - 09:28am PT
wonder who owns those private estates above lake powell large enough to show up on the map when bear ears surrounded them?
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Dec 8, 2017 - 10:14am PT
Sorry Fats, but "Juan" is a fiction created out of a stereotype by Cowboy himself--despite his later attempts to edit and claim that he is a real. Bizarre, frankly.

Anyhow, your predictable trotting out of the brown-hater lies at the heart of why white liberal paternal racism is probably the most insidious brand on the shelf.
Ah yes, the old tried and true, 'you pointed out my racism so YOU must be racist' trope. So let's see if I understand you correctly, pointing out that someone is racist, or a "brown hater", is more insidious than being racist?

By the way, I'm Latino. I think your mask is more than slipping; it's off.
xCon

Social climber
909
Dec 8, 2017 - 10:32am PT
life in bears ears...


Sixteen years ago, when Jones joined the board of the Utah Navajo Health System, he realized his neighbors were dying because the closest ambulances — the county’s, in Blanding, and the tribe’s, in Kayenta, Arizona — were an hour away “on a good day.” So Jones asked the county commission if one of San Juan’s ambulances could be housed in a garage in Montezuma Creek. From there, it would take half the time to rush an elder suffering a heart attack to medical care.

But the county wasn’t interested. Over the next decade, Jones says, he and other health advocates repeatedly tried to get the commission to improve ambulance service on the reservation. But while the sole Navajo commissioner was supportive, the two white commissioners were usually not. (Former Navajo Commissioner Mark Maryboy and others corroborate Jones’ account, though no official votes appear in county records.)
Eventually, Jones gave up: The Utah Navajo Health System trained its own EMS volunteers, built a garage and bought ambulances with tribal and federal funds. It stung, but wasn’t surprising.

Though Native Americans on the reservation don’t pay property taxes, they indirectly contribute millions of dollars in oil revenue and federal funds to the county each year, which is supposed to be returned in services like education and health care. But many Navajo requests — from building schools to implementing bicultural education to improving roads — have been denied by Anglo residents, who have always held a majority in elected offices despite comprising less than half of the county’s population.

Now, Native Americans could gain control of county government for the first time. Earlier this year, U.S. District Court Judge Robert J. Shelby ruled that San Juan County violated both the 1965 Voting Rights Act and the U.S. Constitution by relying on race to draw the boundaries of its voting districts. By engaging in “racial gerrymandering,” San Juan County systematically diluted the strength of the Native vote, keeping Natives out of power and skewing the makeup of the county commission and the school board. The system, perpetuated for decades, “offends basic democratic principles,” Shelby wrote.

http://www.hcn.org/issues/48.10/how-a-utah-county-silenced-native-american-voters-and-how-navajos-are-fighting-back
Reeotch

climber
4 Corners Area
Dec 8, 2017 - 01:12pm PT
^^^^ Yep, smells like old school LDS bigots to me . . .
Reeotch

climber
4 Corners Area
Dec 8, 2017 - 01:22pm PT
Slickhorn Canyon
Slickhorn Canyon
Credit: Reeotch
On Cedar Mesa
On Cedar Mesa
Credit: Reeotch
Bullet Canyon
Bullet Canyon
Credit: Reeotch
Grand Gulch
Grand Gulch
Credit: Reeotch
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Dec 9, 2017 - 08:03am PT



Patagonia CEO: This Is Why We're Suing President Trump
http://time.com/5052617/patagonia-ceo-suing-donald-trump/#d70876f5-3b56-4489-8eba-49cadc10bd3a
Don Paul

Mountain climber
Denver CO
Dec 9, 2017 - 06:20pm PT

Here's a very detailed article in the Washington Post with maps of where the oil, coal and uranium is:

Areas cut out of Utah monuments are rich in oil, coal, uranium
seano

Mountain climber
none
Dec 9, 2017 - 07:51pm PT
I'm not that familiar with Bears' Ears, but the Escalante cuts look like they un-protect a lot of the slot canyons along Hole-in-the-Rock Road: https://wilderness.org/sites/default/files/Grand%20Staircase-Escalante%20National%20Monument%20-%20Boundary%20Modification.pdf
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Dec 9, 2017 - 09:15pm PT
My understanding is that Egypt, Neon, Peakaboo, Spooky and Brimstone are all still in Wilderness Study Areas, so still should be OK.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 9, 2017 - 09:34pm PT
steve that eventual mine will be upgradient and may well poison the miraculous springs of that last living vestige of glen canyon ecosystem
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Dec 9, 2017 - 10:13pm PT
Maga!
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Dec 12, 2017 - 05:29pm PT
I really hate these f*#kers...

Trump, Zinke to Auction Away 700,000 Acres of Western Public Lands for Fracking

http://flip.it/3mCpoc
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